Howard Dean fucked up, and for no good reason either...

[Solon]

To even allow himself to be interviewed by CBN in ANY context is simply insane. I know many people talk about the 25% or so of Evangelicals that vote Dem, newsflash for them, they don't watch CBN. Being an Evangelical does NOT equal being a fucking hate mongering psychopath like Pat Robertson, his station is for Fundamentalists who hate, that is all they know, and for a Democrat of any stripe to try to court that vote is simply insane. These are the kool-aid drinkers, they are the 31% if anyone is, are literally the "lost" they can't see anything beyond Gays being practical devils and anyone who doesn't think like them as the DAMNED.

[xultar]

1. Why. We have an audience there with the real Christians. I don't

agree with your assesment nor do I think it is Fair.

Howard is taking it to the roots and the roots mean everyone.

[Solon]

2. "Real" Christians? Judgemental much?

Let's see, OK, we have the Catholics, the largest Christian denomination in the nation, do most of them watch CBN? No they don't, if anything they would watch EWTN, but that isn't the point, CBN is traditionally anti-Catholic, and anti-Methodist, Presbyterian, and most other Christian Denominations as well. In fact, probably no more than 20-30% of all self identified Christians even watch CBN on even an occasional basis, and those are mostly the Fundlementalists. If the roots mean everyone, will Howard Dean now try to court the Christian Identity movement as well? Not much difference between them and the Christian Dominance movement that CBN propogates.

[YOY]

5. Most Catholics don't watch religious programming (period)

Barring little old ladies watching the nuns talk on Sunday morning. I suppose there is a very small exception.

Unless you count watching "The Exorcist" or "Dogma"...

[Solon]

7. Hey, Dogma was educational, and my traditional Catholic grandmother...

loves that movie. :)

But I was attacking the idea that CBN is a "Real" Christian channel that is worth Dean's time to be on at all. It isn't, pretty simple there. They think of Catholics as the "Whore of Babylon", and most other Protestant Denominations as 2 degrees removed from Devil Worship, and Non-Christians as Satan Worshippers. The audience for CBN is literally beyond hope, we can only hope their kids aren't too damaged by their teachings.

[xultar]

25. YOU DIDN'TGET IT!!! I mean that Christians who don't believe Fundie BS

GEEZ!! Have a little faith why don'tcha!!! They watch CBN but don't like the hate they preach.

What negitivity. Give me some fuckin credit will ya. Seems other people understood what I was talking about.

[Solon]

32. What self respecting Christian would watch that tripe?

That is what I'm trying to understand, its like a Democrat watching Fox News because they LIKE it. It does NOT compute here. Of the liberal Christians I know, they view CBN and Pat Robertson's 700 club as being somewhere between watching paint dry and sticking needles in their eyes. What did Howard Dean do to reach out to them? Being on CBN would be a NEGATIVE to them, period.

[xultar]

33. The Blue-Hairs with nothing else to watch. They think it will help them

get into heaven.

[Rose Siding]

41. This is so true

I have relatives -dear, sweet, inexplicably gullible, older Christian relatives- in WV who watch TV evangelists. Some of them are even Democrats. It's a decades long habit.

I don't know if they're hung up on CBN, but I certainly wouldn't fault a dem for saying hey on that network. It can be done without buying the whole package.

[Squeech]

8. Agreed

Strategically what Dean is doing is trying to transcend "identity politics," where we vote based on our demographic bloc. Remember, he's also the guy that said we should try and appeal to the guy with the Stars and Bars on his pickup-- and I never assumed he meant we should adopt more racist stances, I thought he meant we should try and appeal to Lynyrd Skynyrd fans, who also fly the Stars and Bars.

Regarding who the "real Christians" are, I assume you mean, the ones who agree with the Christ, the ones who've read the Bible and thought through the issues therein, the ones who believe "Turn the other cheek" supercedes all the "Thou shalt nots" in Leviticus, the ones who see the difference between the people and the values Jesus embraced and the people and the values embraced by zillionaire evangelical broadcasters with stock in Liberian gold mines. It will require some nimble rhetoric, but I believe those people can be pried loose from Pat Robertson's clutches, and that will be a good thing.

[Solon]

13. First, it isn't the "Stars and Bars" I really hate it when people...

who claim to be celebrating their history gets that history WRONG! Second, you can only go so far before you have to write off certain groups, if the guy flying the CS navy jack on his pickup truck bases his vote on being against Affirmative Action or repealing the Equal Rights act of 1964, then he isn't worth courting for a vote. Trying to convince him that those things don't hurt him is another matter entirely. However, this is also distinctly different than courting CBN viewers, Pat Robertson and his allies on the Religious Right are Christian Dominionists, they believe in destroying the First Amendment and instituting Biblical law in this nation, think Sharia law without the Burqas, are they worth trying to win the votes of?

[xultar]

26. Real Christans are Liberal. Seems you jumped the gun and went negative

didn'tcha. That is all we are saying. Real Christians...regardless of denomination are Liberal. You seem to have written us off. You prooved your point but in yourself. Not us.


Buhwawawa.

[Solon]

40. Sorry, Real Christians are those who believe in the Divinity of Jesus...

no more, no less. This whole "They aren't REAL Christian" debate is something for Christians to sort out, but it sounds faintly pathetic to those of us on the outside. Are Othodox Jews real Jews? Or does that label only apply to Reform Judiasm? Same difference.

This means that both MLK Jr. and his assassin were Real Christians, similar to how both Ghandi and his assassin were real Hindus. Being a Christian doesn't mean you are a good person, that is something you define for yourself, and has little to nothing to do with political belief. Pat Robertson is as much of a Christian as Bishop Spong, even though their beliefs are radically different. I was TRYING to state that Bishop Spong probably would be caught dead watching CBN, that is all.

[Squeech]

31. No, I think this is how it works

We're not trying to convert Pat Robertson, we're trying to pry off the Radical Right's squishy support, which we think is 3000 miles wide but only an inch deep. Granted, it's an uphill battle-- as proof, I think of the Alabama tax reform, which the good Christian Repuke governor (Riley?) tried to pitch in good Christian terms, and got hammered by the moneychangers in the temple. But I think it's possible, and obviously, so does Dean.

Now, what's wrong with the designation "stars and bars" for that flag? It's got stars, and it's got bars. I didn't say it was "the flag of the Confederate States," because I know that's not true (and I'm not a son of the South, I'm a decadent east coast librul, but at least a somewhat educated one). And in my admittedly very limited experience, when I see that design, more often than not it's a guy who has no particularly strong political feelings, but wants to identify with fans of some Southern rock band, Skynyrd or the Allmans or some such. And again, I think that guy is reachable, especially if he's in the work force. (But not on CBN, unless his wife's a fundie. For him we need unions.)

[Solon]

34. Little Education for you...

This is the Stars and Bars, was called that when it was approved as the first CSA flag:



This is the flag of the CS navy, adopted during the Civil Rights movement as opposition to integration:



Hence the reason for the correction, there is ALREADY a "Stars and Bars", no need for another one.

[Doctor_J]

48. No libs or Dems watch CBN

yes, most real Christians are libs, but they don't watch RobertsonTV

[WobbliesUnite]

3. Dean is making a wrong move here

[alarimer]

53. I think so too

It's pandering, if nothing else. Or, worse, it is scary move rightward to attract the religious fringe who hate gays and are "pro-life" (well except that they just love the state executing people). I am not willing to throw out gay rights or choice just to win votes. Even if we win back Congress or the White House on those terms, it is no victory at all. But maybe Dean was just trying to show that Democrats are not so scary after all. I am not sure this move will work. He may attract some who are wavering but may also alienate enough progrssives to make the whole exercise a wash.

[neoblues]

4. Not just Gays either...

all "Liberals" are imagined to be practicing demons in Satan's employ.

[Solon]

6. I think that for Dean, the fact he was on CBN is because of ignorance...

Not to defend him too much here, I don't agree with what he said on it, but he probably has never seen, or even heard much about it before he went on it. He most likely had no clue that these are religious extremists who damned near cheer abortion clinic bombings and shit like that.

[Tansy_Gold]

59. Ignorance is no excuse, especially for

the "leader" of the party.

I mean, c'mon. Do you really think Howard Dean, who ran for President for cryin' out loud, doesn't know who Pat Robertson is, what he stands for, and what goes on on his tv show? GMAFB.

Dean knows, and he knows perfectly well, where those people stand on the issues. And if Dean really thought he could peel off a few layers of the "squishy" right wing, why did he touch on the hot button issues that are the most polarizing of all?

IMHO, bad move on Dean's part. Really bad. He needs to consolidate the Dem/Lib base, not bring in more factions.


Tansy Gold, a uniter not a divider <sarcasm>

[NJ_Lib]

9. At least he's not partying with...

... Rupert Murdoch... YET!

Oy...

[meegbear]

10. Link? Transcript?

[Solon]

14. Here...

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/politics/060510a.asp

[bullimiami]

11. i dont agree.

[sendero]

12. Dean's strategy..

... transcends your ken.

[Solon]

15. Well could you explain it to me?

Seriously, why the fuck would he court the "convert or die" extremists?

[sendero]

16. Let's start..

... with your assertion that every audient of that program is a member of the idiot-contingent. That is false.

Second of all, the right depends upon the brainwashed understanding us only through their caricatures of us. Nothing like seeing Dr. Dean speak to deflate his supposed trident.

Seriously, I think you are mistaken to think that reaching out to everyone will have no results.

[Solon]

29. OK, then explain their programming...

I could mention the call-in faith healing of Pat Robertson, but that is just ridiculous. No, let's talk about their propogation of this stuff:

http://www.cbn.com/special/marriageamendment/index.asp

I see hatred behind both of these.

http://www.cbn.com/special/pledgeofallegiance/merch.asp

And this last one is just stupidity, ignorance, and fearmongering run amok!

http://www.cbn.com/special/supremecourt/prayerpledge.asp

They are a station for Christian Extremists, plain as day.

[bemildred]

17. Bullshit, Dean can and should be willing to talk to anybody.

When did evangelicals get kicked out of the human race? Why is it OK to dehumanize them, just because they are wrong? All the more reason to build bridges, I say.

[Solon]

18. Did you even read what I wrote?

Evangelical does NOT equal CBN viewers, at least the regular ones. Look, let me see if I can try again, many Evangelicals are LIBERALS and DON'T watch CBN or other HATE channels. Most, if not all, of CBN's audience are batshit crazy assed, Fundlementalist Taliborn-agains, they are NOT worth our time!

[bemildred]

83. Yes, I did. It's not very long.

I absolutely disagree with the idea that there is anyone he should refuse to talk to. That's his job, to get the message out to anybody that will listen. We are all people. There is no excuse for demonizing any large group of people, there is good in everyone.

[AzDar]

19. There is nothing remotely 'Christian' about CBN. A truly stupid move for

Dean...

[GDAEx2]

21. what's the down side here?

eom

[Solon]

23. Losing a good 10-20 percent of the electorate to gain 10-20 percent...

of the electorate on the other side. Is that really a good thing?

[GDAEx2]

30. Honestly!

Do you really think that we will lose 10-20% just because the party chair went on a Christian network and stressed what we have in common over our differences?
Wow!

[Solon]

36. It ISN'T a Christian NETWORK!!!!!!

Its a PARTISAN, EXTREMIST propoganda arm for Pat Robertson's set of beliefs, nothing more or less. Just because they put Jesus Christ somewhere within the hate doesn't make them a Christian station.

[GDAEx2]

20. Whatever gets the message out...

to the kool aid drinkers. The article you linked to seemed reasonable. Remember Dean's "Southern" strategy? Pick up trucks and confederate flags!
We need to have a REALLY big tent here, folks!
BTW, what's with the profanity? It gives the appearance that you a less intelligent than I'm sure you actually are. <:-)>

[Solon]

22. That big tent can shrink rather rapidly...

Alienate the Non-Christians and Gays, to court bigots is just stupidity, even more so with the Republican party being so freakin vulnerable. The Repubs have lost the African American and Latino vote for probably a good generation with some of the stupid shit they are pulling, in addition to that they are now threatening the stability of their traditional safe voters. We who cannot in good conscious join "God's Own Party" because of how it frames itself will work with Democrats, but only if they don't turn in a pale version of the GOP.

[GDAEx2]

27. Why would anyone feel alienated?

Nothing said in the transcript indicates to me that he is compromising in any way.
I know this seems distasteful to some, but Dr. D is being given an opportunity to let CBN viewers see who we are for themselves w/o being defined by others.
Cheer Up!

[Solon]

39. That's what is even more infuriating...

CBN viewers are not FOR civil unions, they are for Gays disappearing entirely, in addition to that, he was talking about finding "common ground" between the values of all religions. Pat Robertson and his network views all other religions except for theirs as damned and EVIL, they will not reach out to others, they will attempt to convert them, a different thing entirely. Dean accomplished NOTHING with this and pissed off his own base in the process, its called a lose/lose situation. Besides which, Pat will tell his viewers what they should think about Howard Dean and the Democrats anyways, like they would listen to one of the "unsaved" to begin with.

[greenman3610]

24. I still don't see the down side

I am cheering that Dean is confident enough in the
message to take it to the evangelicals, the NASCAR people, the
rural blue collar. There's plenty of people who have the
TV on who simply havent been exposed to
Mr Dean other than what they hear second
hand.
Good for him!

[On the Road]

28. What on Earth is Wrong with Being Interviewed?

You make it sound like he compromised his prinicples or something. This is part of Dean's 50-state strategy, part of his belief that working-class white driving pickup trucks with gun racks should be voting Democratic. Republicans are not used to it, and for that matter neither are Democrats. Expect more of the same.

[Solon]

37. Going on a partisan station that will make you look bad...

is what I have a problem with. They have a strong conservative religious bent and have been demonizing Democrats for years, Dean has done nothing but provide them with ammunition they wouldn't have to begin with. I haven't even seen the spin to this yet, but only Gods knows what good ole Patty will say on the 700 club about Howard Dean and the Democrats now.

[Stevepol]

35. I don't think Dean's position has changed in the least.

As far as I know, Dean has always been in favor of "civil unions" but not government sanction of "gay marriage."

This is what it came down to in VT before they passed the civil unions law.

Like it or not, I think this is the best approach for Dems to take. Marriage is after all a social and religious matter and shouldn't be prescribed or proscribed by the government. Gays are still free to get married as they see fit, and I'm sure they will regardless of the laws. It's just that the state won't recognize it as "marriage." Recognizing "civil unions" allows for all the legal rights for such an arrangement without offending the religious sensibilities of the majority.

[Solon]

38. I didn't mention his position...

I was critisizing the fact that he went on CBN at all.

[NoPasaran]

43. A rather Draconian stance, isn't that?

It's not like Pat made him dress up in a red suit and carry a pitchfork.

[Solon]

49. I view Pat Robertson and his followers/viewers the same way...

I view the KKK or Neo-Nazis, the only difference is that he focuses his hate against Non-Christians, Gays, Feminists, and other undesirables. Christian Supremicists shouldn't be coddled or welcomed in the Democratic Party, it is not that big of a tent.

[NoPasaran]

55. Are you telling me

That no one gets stoned and watches the 700 Club for entertainment anymore? It used to happen all the time... err, so I've heard.

I don't think that everyone who watches the 700 Club is a dyed in the wool christofascist zealot, anymore than everyone who sometimes listens to Rush or any of the rightwing radio folks is necessarily a knuckledragger---there are certainly enough threads started on DU everyday to disprove that.

[Solon]

58. Yeah, but those are people who are already Democrats, or at least...

don't take Pat Robertson seriously, in that case, Dean would be "preaching to the choir", don't you think? Those that do take Pat Robertson seriously are either seriously deluded or extremely hateful, and no amount of coddling by Democrats will sway them.

[NoPasaran]

61. Some of them could very well be mostly disinterested in politics

If seeing and hearing Dean in the lion's den wakes them up a little, I think it's all to the good.

[Solon]

65. Yeah, but they would be a fractional minority of those who...

watch the show to begin with. Besides which, it would be amazing if any of them actually caught the show at all, for the simple fact that I doubt any of those type of people watch the show religiously.

[NoPasaran]

81. I don't deny that it's a struggle

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning.

[PaDem]

42. Disagree...........

and after reading the transcript, I'm happy he went on. He did nothing to hurt our cause.

[Solon]

44. I would say that is true to an extent...

Its divisive on the left side, but at the same time it didn't help either, we were never going to win over the CBN viewership at all in this. It was a strategic mistake, plain and simple.

Read the transcript again, he made some serious missteps that only reiterate that Democrats are "Christian-Hating Gay lovers". His repeated use of the word inclusiveness is one giveaway to Fundies, another is the use of the phrase Family Planning, I could go on, but he did nothing to help, I will say that much.

[PaDem]

46. I'll say this.............

I think you'd be surprised at the diversity of the 700 Club's audience. I know that sounds laughable given Pat Robertson's not so subtle disdain for diversity. I think getting fundies to see inclusiveness as a positive value is a good thing. I think we have to. I'll agree on the family planning remark, I wish he had framed that differently.

[Solon]

47. What diversity, in fact, where is his audience?

Seriously, I'm trying to figure that one out myself, I'm not in any bastion of liberalism around here, this is Moran central, literally, this picture:



Is from my hometown, and there are churches on damn near every street corner, yet most people around here haven't even HEARD of Pat Robertson much less watch the 700 club. Plus the area is Republican to boot, obviously. What is their viewership, anyone have any real numbers? Pat Robertson fancies himself as a National Spokesman for "Real" Christians, but is he really?

[LoZoccolo]

45. Don't set yourself up again.

People were surprised enough at the number of evangelical Christians who vote Democratic that they shouldn't end up surprised again by doing anything in accord with your fabricated statistic about whether or not they watch The 700 Club. People have much more nuance than people complaining and arguing on the Internet will give them, and their own reasons for doing what they do that you may not be able to discern.

[Solon]

52. Set myself up for what again?

Look, the only stats I gave were estimates on how many percentage of voters may abandon the party if Dean continues with this type of rhetoric, estimated from the amount of Non-Christians and Gays are in this country, anywhere from 10 to 20 percent of the Population depending on what polls you believe. Also, everyone here assumes that the 700 club is a mouthpiece of Evangelicals, when I see no evidence for that, Evangelicals are not all Fundlementalists, in fact, most probably aren't, Pat Robertson and his program are geared towards the Fundlementalists, another group that comprises about 10-20% of the population depending on which polls you believe.

Not to mention the lack of syndication for the 700 club, even in my red state, and I don't think the viewership is nearly as large as many here seem to think. I don't have the stats, but seriously, who would want to watch that crap but Fundlementalists? Not to mention the not so subtle hint that Evangelicals are considered conservative by default, when that is also not true, tells me Dean needs to learn nuance himself before he can reach out to these people. Most are moderates, I doubt they would be able to stand a Pat Robertson rant for long.

[tishaLA]

50. Honestly, I don't have a problem with him going on CBN

at all. I think outreach and speaking to unconventional audiences is always good; that's one of the reasons I'm happy Wes Clark is on Fox news--he provides an authoritative, progressive voice to Fox viewers that is completely unlike those the station usually offers.

What I *do* have a problem with, though, is his misrepresentation of facts about the Democratic Party platform. I would NEVER belong to a party that said "marriage is between a man and a woman."

[alarimer]

51. It is hard to believe he could reach anyone there

the CBN crowd would NEVER vote for a Democrat so it seems mostly a waste of time or, worse, an attempt at pandering to the religious wackos.

[Solon]

54. The thing that surprises me is the belief...

that CBN and the 700 club have a great following anymore. Quite a few years ago I would believe them, but not now, Pat Robertson's is only a Christian "leader" in his own delusional mind at the moment. His movement, and all the related stuff imploded years ago, only a shadow of what it was in the 1990s, and all the better I say. Dean would have served himself better by being interviewed on Jack Van Imp Ministries or something, he could have talked about Bush being the anti-Christ or something, that would have been funny! :)

[madfloridian]

56. A lot of people who watch the 700 club are good people...very good people.

They may not see it the way you do. When my parents were alive, they watched it. They saw through the hosts as being hypocrits, but they got a lot from the show itself.

Being judgmental of those who watch that show is wrong. Many are like we were about our church. Until our church started preaching for the war in Iraq, we did not realize what was happening.

Calling people who watch that show names is wrong. Some good people watch it, separate the good from the bad, and make their own decisions.

[Norquist Nemesis]

57. Completely disagree. Maybe it's the first time the Fundies

have seen for their own eyes what a real Democrat looks and sounds like without the translation of Pat Robertson and his Family Leaders. :shrug: At least it gives them a chance to make up their own minds; maybe it will even spark their curiosity to get a first-hand look/listen to what Democrats are saying.

[Solon]

63. As I explained in another post...

OK, the Fundies finally got an unfiltered look at a real Dem who is presented on CBN, and it most likely scared them out of their wits. Seriously, did you read what Dean said on the show? Dean talked about Conservative Christians finding common ground with other religions, which is a big NO NO, other religions are tools of Satan you know. Plus he was talking about tolerance of Gays, with Civil Unions instead of Marriage as a compromise. This is again a big NO NO to the fundies, they don't even want GLBT people to be in the nation, they want them to either be ex-gay, dead, or in the closet, nothing less than that will satisfy these freaks.

So basically Dean reinforced the beliefs of fundies that Democrats are Anti-Christian Gay lovers, nothing, I repeat, NOTHING will change that perception.

[madfloridian]

67. Dean never supported gay marriage, just civil unions.

There is nothing different in what he said.

Clinton said Dean "forfeited" the right to be president when he signed the VT civil unions bill.....so maybe Dean is further along than some in being open-minded. Yet he is the one being viciously attacked.

I think he was right to do it. I hope he does it again. I think a lack of tolerance is being shown here for sincere people who are trying to understand.

[Solon]

69. As I said, it doesn't matter, CBN viewers, the true believers...

want GLBT people gone entirely, they don't want to hear about them, see them on TV, or give them any rights at all, look at the programming and the target audience for CBN and the 700 club becomes obvious. When the show is a basic hatefest of everything they consider immoral or unchristian, what else am I to conclude about their audience?

[madfloridian]

75. That is not true.

Some do, but you have no right to judge like that.

[Norquist Nemesis]

70. There is no reason why any group should be abandoned

At least not at this point in the game. We have people here at DU that are 'former fundies'. Something caused these people to look further into themselves and their relationships with God and the world. Something triggered them to wake up from the cult trance.

A 50-state strategy includes all demographics. If Dean is able to pull 100 people out of the market who say, "You know, that makes sense!" or "maybe I need to learn more", then that's 100 that weren't looking before. Seems like an effective approach to me!

[Solon]

72. Then choose a better forum for such an outreach...

don't get onto hate programs that can later spin your interview in their favor. CBN is a PARTISAN network, Republican is the word actually, and in addition to that, its demographics are limited to mostly Fundie Christians who were taught through this network that Democrats are only one step removed from Satan himself. Use NEUTRAL ground for such outreach, you wouldn't see Dean at a Klan rally trying to tell those Klansmen that affirmative action isn't evil now would you?

[madfloridian]

73. My parents watched CBN faithfully before their deaths.

I did not, but I understood that. They loved and got inspiration from shows like the Crystal Cathedral...which I don't care for. But they did.

Religious TV was a godsend during their last years. I very much resent your painting everyone who watched or watches it that way.

This site needs to respect religion, and it needs to understand that people like my hubby and I who left the church over the war found inspiration in Howard Dean's campaign.

Your post is condemning of all of those things.

[Norquist Nemesis]

76. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.

The Klan analogy is a bit over the top for me. I understand what you're saying, just disagree.

[Solon]

77. I don't view it as over the top...

not at all, I view CBN, the Christian Coalition, and Pat Robertson himself as the equivalent to the KKK, the only difference is the target for their hatred.

[safi0]

60. I consider myself

More pragmatic than many on this board. If I lived in PA I'd be working on Bob Casey's campaign, if I lived in TN I'd be working on Harold Ford's campaign despite the fact that I disagree with them on a number of issues.

Having I said that, I agree with Solon. I've met people who watch CBN and most of them are bat-shit crazy. They are the most close-minded people I have ever met. Plus, there's a difference between Christians, evangelical Christians and the crowd of CBN. The latter are truly unattainable. Many of these people probably agree with Falwell and Robertson that Gay people and the ACLU were responsible for 9/11. Many of them probably agree with Robertson that judicial activists are more dangerous than the 9/11 hijackers.

[madfloridian]

62. That's a lot of people you are judging.

.

[safi0]

64. I'm talking

About the people I've met who watch those shows, and that's what they believe.

[madfloridian]

66. You called them "bat-shit crazy".

Many who do watch the shows are good people, they are not bat-shit crazy.

[Solon]

71. No offense, but I don't understand that position...

seriously, this is the same group who blamed everything from Pagans to Feminists for 9/11, calling them terrorists themselves, and you now complain that we are the ones that are calling people names? We aren't the ones listening to a Multimillionare calling himself a Christian while making money off the backs of 12 year olds in mines and then their parents get killed over his fucking diamonds. Pat Robertson and his ilk do not deserve consideration at all, I wouldn't even give him the time of day if he didn't constantly try to get into the limelight pushing his version of hateful Christianity down people's throats. How can anyone who LIKE his programming be considered good people?

[madfloridian]

74. How dare you judge so many people like that?

You do not have insight into their minds. You are judging people like my parents, the greatest most loving people on earth.

I very much resent it. Shame on you for doing that.

[Solon]

78. How dare I?

Listen up, and listen good, whatever were your parents motivations, I don't really care. CBN is no more than a hate propaganda network, that's all it is to me, I'm a target of that hatred, as are a good section of the population, so your complaints ring hollow right now. Any insult you feel pales in comparison to the real, obvious threat that these people on that network represent to MY safety and my civil rights, so don't lecture me about judgement.

[madfloridian]

79. You are hurting your cause by condemning good people.

And trust me, a lot of good people listen to religious programming.

[Solon]

80. There is a difference between religious programming, and hatred...

disguised as such. That's my biggest problem with most of these "religious" channels, too many of them insert uneeded "moral" lessons that is divisive hatred disguised as morality, wrapped in politics, and then spewed out in a skewed way. Channels that avoid such things, EWTN is a halfway decent example, though even their they sometimes can't help with the Anti-Woman bias in some cases, but many of the other channels are simply atrocious in this type of practice, and should be rightfully slammed for it. I know a guy who, with his daughters, sings gospel songs for a local religious radio station, songs of acceptance and love, those I have no problem with, being religious myself, I can even find beauty in the language even though I don't believe as he does. However, other sections of the same station are just simply evil, rants against liberals, "Anti-Christian" bias, and other bullshit that makes you want to puke, and the worst part is that it is disguised, though only thinly, as a religious teaching. That should be viewed as blasphemous, but is usually met with silence by other Christians. Then they turn around and demand tolerance? What type of BS is that?

[madfloridian]

82. You are judging many by a few. You make fun of people like my parents.

That is painful to know that people like my parents who loved the Lord and served him are laughed at here at DU.

I don't like religion mixing in politics, but making fun of people is a whole other matter entirely.

[Solon]

84. Who laughed at your parents?

Pay attention to my post, and let me repeat what I just said, yet again, those who PREACH hate deserve derision, I don't care who they claim to follow. At the same time, those who LISTEN to those who preach HATE and agree with it also deserve derision. And finally, those who are silent on the Hate deserve contempt.

[madfloridian]

86. You have contempt for people like me who don't share all of your views.

My parents got solace from religious programming through their invalid last years. I am so very angry at seeing the ugliness there toward people like them.

I am so very angry that in some of the threads gays are saying Dean should rot in hell. He has always has the same stance on gay marriage. Very few people where I live are ok with it at all....but say civil unions or equal rights they are fine.

I am very angry at the way you have marginalized good people here

[Solon]

87. I marginalized people? Talk about a pot calling a kettle black!

Please, I'm not in power, and to be honest, bigotry of any sort shouldn't be coddled, regardless of where it comes from. I never agreed with Dean on many things, this Civil Union thing included. But then again, given your sig line, he isn't exactly what I would call principled on this. His Civil Union stance is rooted in Political Expediency, and therefore he is a hypocrite, if your sig line is any indication. Is that something to be admired, or should he just follow his own advice for once? He talks big, but delivers little, and we are to be happy with that?

Look, my problem with Dean manifests on two levels, the first is the obvious damage he did to his own party by showing up on the partisan, conservative, 700 Club. This was a trap, and he fell for it, foot in mouth disease indeed. The second part is his misconstruing of the Gay Marriage debate and attempt at coddling these bigots in the first place.

Also, another thing that REALLY pisses me off, and this is important, even to me, a Straight White Guy who happens to be Wiccan. This "separate but (un)equal" Civil Union position is not only hypocritical, but damned near unconstitutional. Why the fuck are Christian definitions of Marriage supposed to take precedence in Law and Contracts over OTHER religions that don't follow those same definitions. In my religion, for example, Gays and Lesbians can marry, no religious prohibition against it, and yet, with the Christian majority's insistance that it be called Civil Unions, they are trying to codify into law that basically some religions are more equal than others. Damned hypocrites, one and all.

[madfloridian]

88. You are judging me harshly because I don't feel comfortable...

with the word marriage being used except with a man and a woman. How many people in our area with 14 big baptist churches do you think you would win over to your side?

I am just being honest about it. So go ahead. Make fun of Christinas and people who like religious shows.

Go ahead, let your community keep trying to get Dean out as chair. Good luck on getting support for that.

[Solon]

89. Actually, I don't care about popular support...

If the angle I supplied is viable, and I think it is, then this will ultimately be decided by the courts, not by the legislature. Also, I don't care about your hangups at all, I'm someone who should be the poster boy for being a homophobe, but I'm not. I was raised a Catholic, though Wiccan now, I'm White, and Hetero, yet I have no problem with GLBT being MARRIED, what is your excuse?

[madfloridian]

90. What is my excuse for what?

I believe in equality for every person on earth. I am sorry some don't find me worthy of having respect for my views and of my community.

[Solon]

91. You said you weren't comfortable with definitions of marriage...

that aren't of simply one man and one woman. I'm asking why you aren't comfortable. As far as respect, you have to earn it to get it.

[madfloridian]

92. I must support your views to be respected?

I guess I am uncomfortable for several reasons. Howard Dean inspired my family to get back into the party again. We respect him very much.

However, we are the only Democrats in our family. My family is all Republican. They are educated people, they are very bright.

They do not support gay marriage, but they, like I, support equality.

[Solon]

94. No, you must actually make an argument that makes logical sense...

Look at what I wrote in the previous post, a logical, LEGAL argument for why making gay marriage a reality under the same banner as hetero marriages is consistant with the Constitution, and any other compromise wouldn't be consistant with those principles. Rebut it using logic, don't use sound bites like "I support Equality, except just don't call it marriage", that sounds faintly hypocritical, and inconsistant for the same contractional agreement. I mean, if they are to be equal in force of law, in addition to sharing the exact same obligations as marriages, what is the argument for NOT calling them marriages. Just because they are unpopular? That's not an argument for anything besides popularity, and you can't appeal to religion, that's unconstitutional to begin with.

[madfloridian]

95. I can tell you that the word "marriage" is not going to fly here.

This is a very fundamentalist area. I am sorry, but that is reality. All of inland central Florida and most of North Florida are that way.

If I had a magic wand I would wave it.

But right now I have memories of my parents enjoying their religous shows, and I see they were of the ones put down here...and I feel kind of sad.

See that leaves for you or someone an opening for the usual paranoia stuff..

They would have been broken-hearted to be made fun of for their religious beliefs.

[Solon]

96. Since when did I make fun of their religious beliefs?

I didn't, I said that hatred in the GUISE of religious teaching is subject to derision. If hatred is somehow a basic tenet in a religion, that religion deserves everything it gets, plain and simple.

[safi0]

101. The people

I met who watch that crap are batshit crazy. Like Solon, I am one of the people who Robertson and his ilk villify. So, anyone who watches that show is in direct opposition to who I am as a person.

You know what, madfloridian I've lost a lot of respect for you after this thread. I may not agree with a lot of what you've said in the past, but I've respected you because I thought you had deep convictions. In the pasy you've criticized Schumer and Emmanuel for their recruitment of candidates that you felt were bad for a variety of reasons. I usually didn't agree with you, but I could respect that. But in this thread you've shown to be little more than a hack. You'll defend Howard Dean no matter what he does. He could punch a baby on live TV, and you'd probably say the baby had it coming.

[madfloridian]

107. No, I hate to see one group destroy the rebuilding of the party.

And I don't give a damn what you think of me....I am pretty hated here by most everyone. Sometimes things like that don't matter. I see one group has set out to get him ousted.

I have said over and over I will vote Democratic this year for sure.

I think the gay community is being destructive on this. I have seen hatred in this thread toward religious people that I did not know existed.

It is awful.

[libnnc]

109. have you ever actually met a gay person?

Just curious.

[madfloridian]

110. Oh, God, yes.

We have a gay daughter, two who are straight, and two sons who are straight, we ran an openly gay candidate here before. We have several gays in our DFA group.

You just get more and more insulting.

Oh, the daughter that is gay does not want marriage, just the rights they need.

Why are you treating me in such an insulting way?

[libnnc]

111. From your posts, you sound like someone who

is very, very angry at the gay community. That puzzles me. I have not been mean to you. You have a hard time with criticism I think.

Do you not see how some folks in the gay community are a little upset at Dean? No one has attacked you. I've just tried to point out the facts--the truth about Pat Robertson and his ministry and network.

It bothers me that you lump those of us who are ticked at what's happened into some kind of "gay cabal" out to destroy our great leader Howard Dean. I don't want the jerk to resign. I want him to appologize and not try stunt like that again.

I'm sorry if it offended you.

[madfloridian]

112. I am angry at the irrationality.

It just makes no sense. I have nothing against the gay community at all. Our daughter has been out for years, happily. I am angry because of the way they have made fun of the CBN.

I remember my mother just being so happy to have religious programming on TV when she was dying. I can almost see her smile while she listened, because near the end she could not see very well.

And I say shame on the ones who are calling anyone in the religious community freaks and bat-shit crazy. I think most realize what Robertson is like, I know our neighbors do. They detest him, but they keep their TV on to religious channels.

If people want tolerance they have to show it to others.

[Catchawave]

68. When does reaching out mean effing up?

:shrug:

Robertson's donations SOAR when he makes threats against homosexuals and Chevez.

Go figure :silly:

[ComerPerro]

85. Exactly right. He shouldn't have granted an interview

[terrya]

93. I wondered why Dean would give legitmacy....

to a person who publically called for the assassination of a foreign head of state. Among other completely inexcusible public statements. Robertson should be relegated to the frignes of political life. And here's the chairman of the DNC essentially giving him that legitmacy.

Howard Dean had his reasons to appear on this show with this man. I still don't really understand what they are. But, as a Democrat, I guess I'm to give the Governor the benefit of the doubt.

[bemildred]

97. That is a much better question.

It does seem a bit odd, but Howard has always had a kind of ballsout approach to public appearances, so maybe he was just looking for the airtime.

One could also ask what made Robertson invite Dean? It could be as you say, looking for legitimacy, but that doesn't really sound like Robertson, either.

[GymGeekAus]

98. Airtime.

There are precious few ways to get it.

And let's not forget, even given all of our differences, about all the things in which we are ultimately the same.

I would be interested in hearing why Robertson gave Dean airtime. Perhaps Robertson hoped to use it to legitimatize his network to more mainstream Democrats? More likely he was experiencing some sort of pressure from within his congregation to hear some Democrat voices, and he thought Dean would come on the show and explode.

Damnit, I was trying so hard to cast Robertson in a human light. It's just so friggin difficult.

[Solon]

99. More likely to make Dean an object of contempt...

He gave them enough ammunition to use for probably the next week to demonize Democrats, I mean, Dean mentioned Family Planning in the interview. He should be slapping his forehead for that alone!

[GymGeekAus]

105. Uh, so you don't believe a single viewer was sympathetic.

You do know you are now guilty of an extreme generalization.

[zulchzulu]

100. I stand with Howard Dean on this...

He's been everywhere. Now is a great striking time to dig into the Christian vote. Not all of them are neocons, not all of them are mono-issue anti-choicers.

To ignore that voting constituency is foolish. There are a LOT of left-leaning Christians out there and many more who are finally seeing the light that Repugs are more about being corporatists and acting like theocrats.

[safi0]

102. Their are a lot of good

Christians out their, and no one's saying Dean shouldn't go speaking at churches and things like that. But the people at CBN are theocrats and they want a Taliban-style government. Make any appearances you want in front of Christian groups except for three, don't go on CBN, don't speka at Liberty University and don't speak in front of the Christian Coalition. Pretty much any other outreach he makes to the Christian community is fine by me.

[high density]

103. It's more worthwhile than going on Air America radio

Preaching to the choir isn't going to get him or us anywhere.

[safi0]

104. The benefit

Of speaking on AAR is that he can give the listeners info on how they can help build their state parties and how they can help their local and statewide candidates be successful.

[GymGeekAus]

106. There is no "CHOIR."

This is the Democratic party, people. We are not apt to agree on anything, because we tend to argue over everything. Every progressive or liberal or individual thinker always thinks they have the best solution for whatever problem catches their interest, and they move forward with those ideas. It's our way--to present all these opinions together, shake them up, and see what survives.

To let compromise and concensus govern us, as opposed to an individual's will.

It's the Democratic way. Preaching to the congregation is different from preaching to the choir. Republicans have choirs, however. They also have "dittoheads."

[WildEyedLiberal]

108. Oh MAN

I hope you put on your flame-retardant suit before you started this thread.