What happens when the first 'wetback' is shot by a Guardsman?

[Stinky The Clown]

Will the Xenophobes cheer?

Will there be high fives all around?

Will the Great Hate Machine play rousing John Phillip Souza ditties?

Will this be our new century's Kent State?

I am horrified with the anticipation of young men and women from across the nation placed on patriol duty along our borders with loaded guns ... and a target rich environment ... rich with men and women .... and little kids.

How long will our Guard stay there? is it to be permanent? Will there be bases built? Will the National Guard supplant the Border Patrol? Will the cost of this idiotic, unAmerican adventure go to the states to whom the Guard belongs?

On this day .... the eve of seeing our borders 'secured' against the wrong 'inavders' ..... on this day I am caused sit soberly and with no joy, tears just below the surface. With a picture of Lady Liberty in my mind's eye, I am also caused to paraphrase Jesus in Gethsemene .... Country, why have thee forsaken us?

[babylonsister]

1. Here's another side of the story from new DUer 987654321, that

I honestly never considered. So consider what would happen if they start shooting legal citizens?

From this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1170490#1173476

987654321 (9 posts)
Fri May-12-06 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. Another side of the story

There is also another side to this story that has had absolutely no coverage to my knowledge. Many of us hispanics are actually afraid now to travel to southern Arizona for fear of our safety. I am a citizen of this country. My family has been in Arizona since before it was even a state. Yet I recently declined an offer to travel south due to my fear of being mistaken for an illegal immigrant. I have spoken to other people with brown skin, even non-hispanics, who feel the same.

Some may call this over-reacting. I don't know if it is. I do know that the increased anger by these racists and the fact that they flaunt their guns, even through downtown Phoenix, does not make me feel safe. Being told to, "Go back to Mexico you wetback!" by a man with one hand massaging his holster is a scary thing. It's also not illegal, as I was told this by a police officer.

Of course nationally they are often reported as being patriots and that they are protecting America. They say they are protecting our borders and our freedom. Whose freedom I ask, because with them around I personally feel a little less free.

[WolverineDG]

4. The Minutemen said that when they came here

to my little border town, they'd walk the streets & demand to see everyone's papers. :grr:

dg

[babylonsister]

5. Is it fascism yet?

:grr:

:hi:, dg

[WolverineDG]

29. Not yet

Considering folks here put out the message that anyone accosting people going about their business & demanding to see papers were going to be (at best) arrested or (at worst) have the crap beat out of them.

:hi: sis!!

dg

[primavera]

31. I was going to say...

... what I wouldn't give for these guys to come harass me for my papers! They'd find themselves up on charges is a heartbeat.

[B3Nut]

32. This is why liberals need to be armed

and learn to shoot.

I wish I was kidding.

Todd in Beerbratistan

[WolverineDG]

2. They already shot one

back in 1997 when the Guard was used to fight drug smugglers. A guardsman opened fire on a teenager who as (a) an American citizen, (b) herding goats not smuggling drugs & (c) unarmed. Nothing happened to the Guardsman, but the teenager died.

dg

[Stinky The Clown]

6. One point of my post was that it isn't the Guardsmen

Its the situation and the people who put them in such a situation. They're simply not trained for this sort of thing.

And many on the front lines are just kids. They're scared. The leadership gets them all pumped up.

This is truly a case where the shooter and the shot are both victims.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

20. Probably because they ARE trained to deal with natural disasters?

Just a guess, I mean, if you actually THINK about it, the National Guard's JOB is to help their neighborhoods. Our local guard was indispensable during some of the worst flooding we suffered from ever here in my state. Oddly enough, NONE of those jobs required a gun, instead they filled sandbags, distributed food, etc.

[Vickers]

21. You find it funny? Goddam, you have one fucked up sense of humor.

Oh and welcome to DU yadda yadda yadda...

[LexLuther308]

24. Thanks

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. 'splain to me

how exactly does border security (for which they are not trained and posee comitatus comes into play by the way) relate to Katrina, for which THEY ARE TRAINED and they drill for regularly, not to mention they have jurisdiction for once activated by their governors.

[Bridget Burke]

7. Actually Esequial Hernandez was shot by a Marine....

Corporal Banuelos .. led the Marine unit that patrolled the Redford area. He fired the shot that killed Esequiel on the orders of an unidentified commander who was not present at the scene. He and his fellow Marines, trained to kill the enemy, were placed in a situation which was inconsistent with the role of the military. Now he will have to live with the guilt of killing an innocent man for the rest of his life. He too is a victim of our present drug policy.

www.dpft.org/hernandez/gallery/

But neither the Marines nor the National Guard have the training needed to patrol the Border.

[FreakinDJ]

3. Bush will mandate his programs by executive order

That is what this is about.

They'll refuse to punish employers

Wages will be driven down once again

And the same conditions that promoted millions of people to illegally cross the boarder will still exist.

I'm surprised more people don't see this one coming

[LexLuther308]

19. This is already here...

I agree with you.

The guest worker program will invite more illegals.

Employers are not punished, the American tax payers are.

It makes me ill.

[treestar]

8. Good point, and also, what about those who STILL get past this

One wonders how effective it will really be.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. I hope it fails miserably

It is just plain wrong.

If we want to use the Guard as border security, put them in the ports, manning xray machines.

[noonwitch]

10. I would feel very badly for any guardsman placed in that position

Like I do for cops who have to shoot someone in a standoff.

If a guardsman is ordered to shoot by his commander, he has to do it or face a court martial. But it would still be hard to live with having killed someone who wasn't any kind of danger to others.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Flashback to the Nueces River on the hot summer

of '47, 1847 I think they are looking forwards to the incident

Remember folks the Mexican Federal Presidential Electiions ARE this July... and the Lefty candidate is polling very well... did I mention he ain't a fan of NAFTA?

[zbdent]

12. Will the guardsmen be carrying a "throwaway" gun?

[LexLuther308]

13. would you feel better

if their guns were unloaded? I believe in immigration but oppose an all out invasion, which is what Mexico is doing right now. Since it is an invasion I think the military is the best outfit to stop that invasion. I doubt they will shoot illegals unless they are being shot at.

[Stinky The Clown]

14. Peddle that notion to the parents of the four Kent State students.

Welcome to DU.

[LexLuther308]

17. there is a huge difference...

... between shooting at demonstrators and guarding our borders against invasion. I truly believe that Mexico is waging a war against the U.S. without firing a shot. It is well known that many Mexicans want to claim the southern states as "Mexican" territory. With the huge numbers of illegals occupying those states they will soon belong to Mexico.

Thanks for the welcome.

[Solon]

25. That sounds stupid, especially in wake of the May 1st protests...

I mean, they were protesting for US citizenship, so that sort of shoots down the argument that they WANT the Southwest to be given back to Mexico. After all, they LEFT that country in the first place because of the lack of jobs and destruction of agriculture to begin with, why would they want to go back to that?

Not to mention that it is partially our fault that Mexico is in the worsening condition that lead to this increase in illegal immigration, with NAFTA and all that.

[YankeeFan]

35. Two Questions

Number One: What about all of the millions of people who entered America LEGALLY? Every year thousands of Lawful immigrants raise their hands and take the Oath of Citizenship and LEGALLY BECOME AMERICANS. I'm getting the feeling around here that those Americans are going to feel slighted because they didn't take the easy way. They might not vote for us Democrats.

Number Two: If we permit people who cheated their way to citizenship to become Americans, what are we going to do come Election TIme? As I'm a Poll Watch I have to be on the look out - among other things - for people who try to vote more than one time. Or out of their correct precinct. Two years ago there was this rumor of a woman who tried to vote in every voting place in the State. WHat really bothered me is that she was supposedly a Democrat. I was relieved that there was no such woman. But at the start of the last century there were many people who were paid to vote for certain candidates several times in one day. I read the Biography of Harpo Marx several years ago. He wrote that was the way his parents made money every Election Day.

Now figure something like this: If somebody breaks a law to become a Citizen, how can be sure they won't break the law when November comes around? While the huge majority simply want to make a better life for themselves, there is always going to be a small minority who will ignore any law that gets in their way. My Polling pace was clean and righteous last time. But remembering the words of Harpo Marx is making me nervous. I was almost run ragged.

[Solon]

36. A couple of answers...

First, I was critisizing that obvious troll's xenophobia and paranoid rant about the southwest, I didn't take a position on either Citizenship or no for Illegals that are already here. Read my post in CONTEXT with his, and it becomes obvious. I simply stated a FACT about why they protested, I didn't say I supported it, in fact I'm against it.

So given that, I would say that the only answer to your questions is this, there are actual differences in the SEVERITY of law breaking, we do not send thieves to death row, and we do not send Illegals to prison for life. So to ask if you can trust someone that got the "easy" way to citizenship would commit voter fraud just because they broke a different law is a logical fallacy.

Now, ask yourself this, if your government is mostly responsible for the degrading conditions in another country, such as Mexico, and its citizens, in desparation, goes to your country looking for work, can you blame them for that?

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. A couple of answers

I am one of those mythical people who raised my right hand, and took the oath... the way this has been proposed these folks will go to the back of the line... so conceivably they could take the oath, depending where they came from anywhere from 15 to 25 years down the line. Given it took me 12 to get to that point I am fine with that... that said I am now an Indie but it has precious little to do with immigration, and all to do with oh... Supreme Court Justice Nominations, the bankruptcy bill, aka the war against the middle class.

Answer number two, you realize these folks are the least trouble makers you will ever find> They are ECONOMIC REFUGEES. what scares the living daylights of the right wing is... once they emerge from the black economy, they will vote democratic and join the unions.

[raccoon]

37. In a way, you could say "instant karma" is getting the US.

The US invaded Iraq. A great many Americans didn't want it, but those in power did, so it happened.

If Mexico is invading the US, in a way you could say the US had it coming.

I see the poster I'm responding to has already been tombstoned.
Maybe he'll read this post anyway.

[treestar]

42. Likening this to a military invasion is hysteria. They aren't coming

with guns to kill us and occupy the land militarily, as for the Mexican government.

[Stinky The Clown]

44. Save your breath ......

Lex is now a ghost ..... Here's his latest DU profile

[Hissyspit]

16. Well, that is some very amusing naivete.

What world do you live in? Must be nice there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Is Mexico doing the invading

or are American Corporatiosn (who under the 1986 law should face penalties for hiring thsoe who are in the country illegally) attracting this working pool

By the way riddle me this batman, you are aware that a very large percentage of this pool is NOT EVEN mexican right? (eastern Europeans, Asian, et al) You are also aware that 40% of this population has come in during the last five years.

Good, now that we know this... should we put guardmen at La Guardia and JFK as well?

Oh and do enjoy your stay as long or short as it may be.

;-)

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

27. So when the US government subsidizes its farm industry...

undercutting small farmers in Mexico because they can't compete under NAFTA rules, forcing them off their land and then because all the manufacturing jobs from US firms in Mexico are being outsourced, that they can't find a job there, so they come here, we then complain? Isn't that a tad hypocritical?

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Illegal migration is a very complex issue

and insofar as the people coming from Mexico and Central America, who are easy to spot, but not necessarily the majority (they are in very menial work, granted), this is encouraged by policies by your own government, That one has a very easy solution that DOES NOT involve militarizing the border... care to tell me why the 1986 law that includes major fines for those who hire illegal aliens IS NOT enforced? I will give you the answer, THEY LIKE cheap labor.

Now you do understand that if the cost of hiring illegal aliens was high, they would NOT get jobs? You also do understand that if the economic magnet was not there, they would not be coming? You also understand that if you try to run on any of this oh I don't in the Central Valley of California you will be tarred and feathered out of town, you also are aware that if you require this to be enforced, oh corporations like Walmart could potentially loose stores (part of the bill). You are also aware that the last time Wally Mart was caught hiring Illegals, ALL OF THEM were Ukrainian.


I am sure you are also aware of the fact that since the Bush administration came into power the Internal Enforcement unit that was formed precisely to enforce the 1986 law has been comopletely defanged and personnel have either been transfered or encourage to ahem retire.

Now riddle me this... what are YOU going to do about this?

Oh and as to some imigrants being criminals, reality is all populations have a five percent who don't play well with others, and that has NOTHING to do with legal status or race...

[gratuitous]

22. Wow, you should be down there Lex

Because it would greatly enhance the situation to have folks who can tell who is "illegal" just by looking at them. Do you have the special guns that only shoot the bad guys and not the good guys? Because that would be real handy, too.

Thanks, as always, for your service.

[Stinky The Clown]

26. Hey Lex, since you're clearly a military strategist

Recall back when you were in boot camp ... or maybe a bit later when you did your unit drills ... how much training did you get in police work? In border security? In 'bad guy' discernment?

You did wear the uniform ... didn't you?

[High Plains]

40. Mexico is not "invading" the United States.

Millions of Mexicans are voting with their feet, however.

[Stinky The Clown]

41. Hey High Plains .....

You're talking to a ghost. Ol' Lex got tombstoned within minutes of posting to this thread.

:)

He's now sportin' one of these

[sadiesworld]

33. Several latinos killed.

Faux corporate media outrage against "xenophobic" :eyes: US citizens.
Mortified nation meekly accepts guest worker program, etc.
Nagging questions about logistics of shooting left to internet conspiracy "nuts".


Sounds plausible to me...the elites have done FAR worse in their quest for cheap labor.

[Stinky The Clown]

34. Now *that's* a new twist

... and one that's not too far out, either. I could actually see them doing that.

[maxsolomon]

38. rubber bullets

they may not be trained, but they're going to be put in this situation. it is going to happen.

rubber bullets wouldn't be (as) lethal. maybe that would 'help' the situation for all involved?

[IndianaGreen]

43. Do we want a Guardsman back from Iraq to patrol our borders?

Considering how many of them have been psychologically damaged by long deployments, can we guarantee that this Guardsman will not have a PTSD episode and think he is back in Fallujah and that everyone he sees is an Iraqi insurgent?

I am not willing to take that chance!

[AwakeAtLast]

45. I said as much to my husband just today

Truly scary to think about :scared:

:hi:

[Joey Liberal]

46. The GOP will celebrate and the Latino's will riot n.t