Tony Snow uses racial slur on first full press conference day.

[onehandle]

SNOW: Having said that, I don’t want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program, the alleged program, the existence of which I can neither confirm nor deny.
...

QUESTION: What are your personal goals? What do you hope to achieve here? Will you continue to televise these briefings? And would you put into English the phrase (OFF-MIKE) the tarbaby?

SNOW: Well, I believe hug the tarbaby, we could trace that back to American lore.
________

Based on the context of the term, we believe you meant tar baby to mean: “a situation almost impossible to get out of; a problem virtually unsolvable.”

But in “American lore,” the expression tar baby is also a racial slur “used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people.” Use of the term has resulted in people being fired.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/16/snow-memo-tar-baby/

Tar Baby:
The expression tar baby is also used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people (in the U.S. it refers to African-Americans; in New Zealand it refers to Maoris), or among blacks as a term for a particularly dark-skinned person. As a result, some people suggest avoiding the use of the term in any context.
http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990212

The Racial Slur Database:
Tar Baby Represents: Blacks Reasons/Origins: Skin color. From the "Uncle Remus" (Br'er Rabbit) story.
http://www.rsdb.org/

List of Ethnic Slurs
Tar baby (U.K.; U.S.; and N.Z.) a black child.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

[MichiganVote]

1. I always thought of tar baby as an impossible situation, not racial slur

I've never heard it used as a racially derogatory remark.

[onehandle]

9. Here------>

The Racial Slur Database

Tar Baby Represents: Blacks Reasons/Origins: Skin color. From the "Uncle Remus" (Br'er Rabbit) story.

http://www.rsdb.org/


Tar baby (U.K.; U.S.; and N.Z.) a black child.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

[Jai4WKC08]

26. Oops, wrong place n/t

[Nederland]

88. There are over 2500 words listed there!!!

Jesus Christ, talk about people begging to be offended. According to this list it's difficult to put together a normal sentence without pissing some group of people off.

[Critters2]

12. Me, too,

I always thought it meant something difficult to get out of, that sticks like tar. That's how I've heard it used. No idea it had racial overtones.

[mrcheerful]

13. Nope Tar Baby meant an afro-american child as late as the 1970's.

It has changed since then to mean a sticky situation, but it is a very old term for afro-american children. The KKK still uses the term tar baby when it talks about afro american children. Which is probably why the term had been party much forgotten in recent years. The term was started after Uncle Remus wrote the brair rabbit stories and Southerners used it when talking about slave children.

[onehandle]

16. Go into a meeting and throw around the term "tar baby".

Assuming you have meetings and there are African Americans or someone from HR attending.

Kiss your job goodbye.

This isn't some blogger or a network hairdo. This is the Press Secretary of the White House.

[MichiganVote]

47. But I have used the word around my african american friends and

they never said boo. Have to ask them as northern types if they have felt offended.

[goclark]

84. I am amazed ~ unless they are under the age of 40 years old

and are either brain dead or have never had a serious talk about racism with their parents.


You may not understand this but I'll do my best to explain...
Some times Whites have said very hurtful things in my presence and it shocks the system so much that I say nothing!

It may be at a social gathering and not the appropriate place to get into a heated discussion with "a friend" that will try to let you know that saying TAR BABY is an Ok thing.


But I can tell you this, if you really want to be politically correct and kind and compassionate to an African American friend, don't do it!

[MichiganVote]

99. I'm not interested in PC, just civilized discourse...

As I stated in another post, my friends and I are honest with each other, or we would not be friends....

[goclark]

101. It is not civilized discourse to be unaware of the feelings of others

You can believe me now or believe me later.


By the way, what names do they enjoy calling you to your face?

I know what African Americans think and say about Whites that take advantage of our friendship by talking fast and wild with our cultural names with each other.

One of these days you will say the wrong thing and you will be on the ground!

I have seen it happen too many times!

Just know that behind your back, they are not being "honest" with you.
End of conversation.

[MichiganVote]

102. You know, you are completely out of line...good luck

[slampoet]

89. Where do you live? West Michigan?

In West Michigan the Black People are usaally too "polite" to correct white folks to their face.

[MichiganVote]

98. My friends are honest with me as am I with them.

[Igel]

69. They use terms like

"interdependencies", "complementarities", and "seeking to reinforce existing excellence while developing new synergies."

And they're so afraid of a lawsuit or bad PR they have nothing beyond short-term interest in mind: such is the glory of US corporatism, surely a sharpened reed of a support. The "niggardly" nonsense forced somebody's resignation because bureaucrats were too insecure in their knowledge of English to defend an employee and too inept to use a dictionary to tell a member of a racial minority that he was limited. Most of the bureaucrats probably never heard the word, either. Remember, * has an MBA, so we *know* that a business degree must grant you great control over the language.

Actually, telling the nitwit who thought 'niggardly' was a slur that he was doltish might have been deemed racist in itself, and triggered a discrimination lawsuit, since "niggardly" might be viewed by a jury as a "white" word to express covert racism.

Meanwhile, I learned today that 'niggardly' has *nig- (*nigh-?) 'poor' as its root. That means Russian 'nishcheta', meaning 'extreme poverty,' probably has the same root. One could possibly produce a racist etymology, but that would be silly.

[ihelpu2see]

74. Definitely, I'm 36 years old and I knew it as a racial slur

and ps I agree about Macs I started a small business 6 years ago with all iMacs and all still work today ( Ive upgraded 3 to newer Macs) But no virus, virtually no down time, one of the best things I did for my business!!!

[Tunkamerica]

39. you're wrong on that one

it was a sticky situation way before the seventies. it didn't change into a sticky situation. that's what it meant. at some point it also got a racial implication in certain regions from what i've been reading on DU today.

[ProudDad]

75. Sorry, you're wrong

It's been a racial slur -- I heard in the south during Jim Crow and I've heard it in the west.

I've never heard it without the racial overtones.

[Igel]

40. You have the cart before the horse, it seems.

From the late 1800s until the 1950s it seems to have had reasonably few ethnic overtones in most of the country; it was from a story about Brer Fox trying to catch Brer Rabbit by use of a tar baby, a tar covered doll. It sat there, quiet, as Brer Rabbit talked to it, until finally Rabbit thwacked it, and got stuck; the harder he pulled away, the more stuck he became. Brer Fox lay low, watching, until he was sure Rabbit was caught, at which point he announced that surely Brer Rabbit would be joining him for dinner. The story was standard reading; 'tar baby' to refer to a black kid may have been a recurring neologism, or reinforced by the story.

In New Zealand it (apart from the use in the story, discussions of the story, and the usual 'sticky problem') can also be used to refer to Maori; I've no idea how common this usage is, or if it's derivative from American usage.

It might have been used with reference to slave children, but I haven't seen any reference to its use prior to the publication of the Brer Rabbit tales in 1881, after slavery was formally abolished. But there's not a great written record of the spoken conversation from that part of the country, the epistolary art not being in vogue at the time, at least in referring to to black children. Some analysis of the story views it as an allegory about trickster slaves or blacks, but it's thoroughly unclear that Harris intended them to be anything more than amusing tales.

We read the tale in the 1960s in elementary school--revised into more standard English, of course, since the dialect (mostly the orthography) is a bit thick in the original publication. I didn't realize it was an ethnic slur until today. I haven't used the term, but I've seen it used from time to time, never in reference to a black person of any age.

Usage defines meaning.

[MichiganVote]

48. Thank you. This has been my understanding of the usage also.

But you say it much better!

[stevedeshazer]

55. Informative post, thanks n/t

[MichiganVote]

46. Perhaps that accounts for regional differences

[MaineDem]

52. I've never heard it used OTHER than as a racial slur

I've never heard the term used in any other context.

[Hepburn]

67. Same here.

I consider it a term I would NEVER use.

[Bucky]

76. Well, then you listen to ignoramuses. It's a literary reference.

The original use of "tar baby" is exactly how Snow used it: a problem that becomes impossible to extract yourself from the more you engage it. It has a long history of acceptable usage, altho it's usage is usually a bit too deliberately colorful these days.

It's so easy to find actual racist Republicans I don't think we need to be making up bogus claims.

[MaineDem]

80. Well, Bucky, I think "listening to ignoramuses" is a little harsh

I'm beginning to think the term has different connotations on a regional basis.

I've lived a long time and I've never heard the term used in common dialogue. Like I said, maybe it's a regional thing but 50+ years in New England and this is all news to me.

[cmkramer]

81. It's obvious he wasn't using it as a racial slur

Unfortunately, one of the side effects of the movement to remove all literature that could injure the sensibilities of various special interest groups is that you lose cultural references.

[Eurobabe]

100. Ditto. These people aren't too bright are they?

[MidwestTransplant]

2. Don't blame him. I am sure nobody was ever fired from Faux for using it.

[Supersedeas]

79. Ya can count on that.

[MrModerate]

3. I thought he was brought in as . . .

The media pro, Mr. Smoothie, who would know what to say and how to say it?

And he turns out to be a putz?* Who would have thought such a thing could happen?


(* also a slur, for those who are counting)

[Infomaniac]

64. Yup. This yutz is a putz.

[KyndCulture]

4. There is no rational reason that phrase should be used.

He should try QUAGMIRE.

[warrens]

36. It's a weird, odd usage

I know he was referring to the the Uncle Remus story, but the story is not apt for what he was trying to say. Br'er Rabbit got stuck on the tar baby because of his own arrogance and stupidity. It's more or less a story that means, "when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging." Which is not what Tony meant. Very inept.

[KyndCulture]

45. thank the goddess somebody else sees that.

The cliche was ALL wrong for the point he was making, racism aside... it was WRONG.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

49. I think it was an apt usage

I'm not going to comment on the alleged racial overtones here, but my recollection of the original Br'er Rabbit tar-baby story is that Br'er Rabbit would not have gotten stuck if he hadn't touched the tar-baby.

Which seems to be Snow's point in the OP -- if he doesn't comment now, his comments can't be used against him later.

[fishwax]

50. "hug the tar baby" is odd usage, though

brer rabbit kicked the tar baby--his getting caught in the trap was the result of an act of aggression. fwiw.

[onenote]

53. odd but not unknown. and apparently Snow's usage of choice

If you google the phrases "hug (or hugged or hugging) the tar baby" you'll find a handful of examples. Interestingly, one of them is a column, written in 1999,by none other than Tony Snow, in which he offers the following commentary on Kosovo: "Most congressional Republicans are guilty of appalling cynicism and silence. They figure Clinton has hugged the tar baby in the Balkans and they want to watch him writhe."



http://www.jewishworldreview.com/tony/snow040599.asp

onenote

[Infomaniac]

63. Or tar pit.

[Kurovski]

5. So, other than that, he had nothing else worth mentioning?

[GregW]

6. Give me a freakin' break - Snow used the term in the correct context

I use the term "tar-baby" in exactly the same context as Snow.

:eyes:

[Bucky]

77. Here's why it was a stupid thing to say

The Bush administration has a problem with tarbabies. Like Iraq and spying on US citizens and circumventing the Bill of Rights. But mostly Iraq. They should avoid this phrase not because some illiterates will think it's racist--Democrats acting stoopid should actually help them--but because Iraq is very much a tarbaby and a thinking person can't hear a Bushie say this phrase and not be reminded that tens of 1000s have died so that we can eventually place a quasi-sharia-ruled Iranian puppet government in charge of Iraq (plus).

[rodeodance]

7. I do not agree.

[fooj]

8. Either do I.

In his position...he has a responsibility to "choose" his words in an appropriate manner. Period.

[Shrek]

10. That's a racial slur?

Since when?

:shrug:

[onenote]

11. numerous opponents of Iraq war revealed as racists

because they've used "tarbaby" to describe the our involvement in Iraq.


Huffington: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0528-07.htm

Rather:http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/05/eveningnews/main571901.shtml

Kunstler: http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/clusterfuck_nation/2005/11/stay_or_go.html

Rep. Watson: http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ca33_watson/pr050628.html

Oh, and let's not forget our fellow DUers who have outed themselves (here's a few from the past 10 days):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2266664#2266741 (post #4)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2264053
(post #16)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2609742
(post #6)


:sarcasm:

onenote

[Catherine Vincent]

14. You can put up a thousand links.

It's still offensive to a lot of people.

[onenote]

17. well then, let's be even handed and jump on them all

that's all I'm saying..

onenote

[Catherine Vincent]

35. I don't jump on anyone.

[Inland]

22. Wow, aren't YOU a buzzkill! LOL!!!! nt

[onehandle]

29. Again: Go into a meeting and throw around the term "tar baby".

Assuming you have meetings and there are African Americans or someone from HR attending.

Kiss your job goodbye.

This isn't some blogger or a network hairdo. This is the Press Secretary of the White House.

[onenote]

31. okay, so its alright for liberals, and news persons, and congresspersons

but not for Tony Snow. I definitely need a copy of the rulebook.

onenote

[Nederland]

87. I have and I still have a job

Why can't you just accept the fact that not everybody in the country has the same kneejerk reaction to the word that you do? If you want to get all upset over the use of the word tarbaby in a press conference that is certainly your right, but something tells me we've got a lot more important issues to address.

[Nederland]

86. Very Nice

The lack of rational responses to your post is telling.

[Inland]

15. Because nobody thinks Snow was actually making a slur, I pronounce BS

on this and all related threads. Doesn't ANYONE give a shit about what's true and what's not anymore?

[onehandle]

20. He should have known better.

He wasn't "using" the term as an ethnic slur, but using it is just plain wrong.

[Inland]

25. Oh, this sort of hyperventilation only makes DU, not Snow, look bad.

If he knows how to avoid baseless attacks on himself, he needn't put himself through the effort. Doesn't anyone care about what's true or not anymore?

[onenote]

21. nah, its all about games

Just like the games the repubs played when they took Hillary C. to task for the "plantation" remark (and Democrats defended her by pointing out that it wasn't used in a racist context and that repubs had made similar use of the word themselves). Its just the same thing here, except now some of the same people who were outraged that the repubs twisted Hillary's words are probably attacking Snow for his "racist" comment.

onenote

[Inland]

32. Yeah, but the attack on Hillary made some sense, in that it was

all they had. And on edit, the repukes have claimed lying as their sacred right, while we claimed the reality based world.

Why would anyone choose to bring up such weakass shit against an adminstration like this, or for that matter, a first class dope and shill like Tony Big Head Snowjob? Bush has gotten Americans KILLED today, and somebody makes something up that can be smacked down with a laugh.

[onenote]

33. exactly

I agree. Serving up softballs to the other side to focus attention away from things that matter is not the brightest idea.

onenote

[acmejack]

24. Obviously not.

Amezing transformation...

[William Seger]

18. Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby

http://www.otmfan.com/html/brertar.htm

I think a more correct context would be "a situation almost impossible to get out of; a problem virtually unsolvable," but one brought about by ones own ego (i.e. Brer Rabbit attacked the tar baby simply because he was insulted that it was ignoring him).

[Critters2]

34. That's where I know it from

We had a book of Uncle Remus (yes, I know "Uncle" was a term for a black male slave) stories when I was a kid. That's where I know the term from, but even then, I thought of the "tar baby" as just a ball of tar with a hat on it. Is that racist?

:shrug:

[acmejack]

19. Indeed they did!

I was unaware that it was so violently objectionable as well. I mark it off to my youth and inexperience.

[partylessinOhio]

23. Snow, just a chip off his old boss:

In his Janaruy 12th town hall meeting on Social Security, the President claimed that Social Security was inherently unfair to African-Americans, especially men. He also spoke in shockingly inappropriate and condescending terms about how his plan would work:

"Another interesting idea...is a personal savings account...which can't be used to bet on the lottery, or a dice game, or the track.

"Secondly, the interesting -- there's a -- African American males die sooner than other males do, which means the system is inherently unfair to a certain group of people."

http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/000109.htm

[Jai4WKC08]

27. Shows how tone-deaf to racism Snow and his ilk are

And that in itself is a form of racism.

Snow probably didn't mean it as a slur. But he is 50 years old and born in Kentucky. He has ZERO excuse for not knowing better.

There are expressions I grew up with in GA that I would never in a million years mean anything bad by. But I try to never use them, and never ever around people I don't know, precisely because I know they may offend.

Call it political correctness if you want. I call it good manners and consideration for the feelings of others.

[onenote]

28. so huffington and kunstler (among others) are all tone deaf racists?

interesting...

see post #11

[Jai4WKC08]

37. Maybe, maybe not.

Huffington, for all her real flaws, can probably be excused on this one. English is a second language to her. I don't know enough about Kunstler or the others.

Like I said, Snow is my age (ok, a year younger) and born in the South. He should know better. He doesn't give a shit. And not giving a shit about racism is racism.

Edit to add: Rather should know better too. He grew up in TX.

[goclark]

83. Thank you for your wisdom and understanding

It helps to know that at a Progressive Democratic Website there are some who seek to understand the feelings of others.

It floors me to think that there are those that really could care less about someone that has been raped(of what ever color) someone that is a minority, someone that is fat etc. etc.

My grandmother always taught me to," Treat Others The Way You Want To Be Treated."

It has worked for me all these years.

Sounds like you had the same kind of home training.

Thanks again for being so brave and speaking out.

[William Seger]

38. Well...

... I grew up in southern Virginia in the 50s, in an extremely racist community, but I never heard the term "tar baby" used in any context except the one from the Brer Rabbit story -- a "sticky situation." If it was also used in some places as a racial slur, then I suppose it should be abandoned (which is a shame, since it's an awfully good analogy for certain sticky situations that are intentionally created as traps), but as much as I dislike Snow, I think you're being a bit harsh to say "he has ZERO excuse for not knowing better" (since that would apply to me as well :-( ).

[Tunkamerica]

41. same here in nc n/t

[Jai4WKC08]

58. Eh... maybe you're right

I probably shouldn't extrapolate GA to the whole South. GA is the home of Joel Chandler Harris -- I remember visiting the Wren's Nest as a kid -- so maybe his expression would be more likely to picked up and turned into a slur than elsewhere.

Still... it is a slur, and Tony Snow is a press secretary. Makes his living on words and their meanings, all their meanings, and is supposed to be responsible for what he says. As if anyone in the administration acted responsible for anything they do wrong.

[Quantess]

30. the term IS a racial slur.

"Tar baby" does have symbolic meaning, and one meaning is a negative term for black child.

Tony Snow should be tarred and feathered.

[Igel]

42. No problem.

I understand polysemy.

When I hear a newscaster say "he put the shot" I don't ask, "Where did he put it? And was it still full of whiskey?" And I don't assume he's being ignorant by referring to "shot" when there are recovering alcoholics in his listening audience.

[Jacobin]

43. Good grief! Nobody here's read "Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby?"

culturally deprived folks....:-)

It is sort of a racist children's book in that it makes the black person who keeps punching brer rabbit look like a fool.

Guess I'm showing my age.

[Jacobin]

44. THIS is the story of Brer Rabbit and TarBaby and where term comes from

Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby

Retold by Catharine Farrell from a story retold by Joel Chandler Harris

One day Brer Fox thought of how Brer Rabbit had been cutting up his capers and bouncing around until he'd come to believe that he was the boss of the whole gang. Brer Fox thought of a way to lay some bait for that uppity Brer Rabbit.

He went to work and got some tar and mixed it with some turpentine. He fixed up a contraption that he called a Tar-Baby. When he finished making her, he put a straw hat on her head and sat the little thing in the middle of the road. Brer Fox, he lay off in the bushes to see what would happen.

Well, he didn't have to wait long either, 'cause by and by Brer Rabbit came pacing down the road--lippity-clippity, clippity-lippity--just as sassy as a jaybird. Brer Fox, he lay low. Brer Rabbit came prancing along until he saw the Tar-Baby and then he sat back on his hind legs like he was astonished. The Tar-Baby just sat there, she did, and Brer Fox, he lay low.

"Good morning!" says Brer Rabbit, says he. "Nice weather we're having this morning," says he.

Tar-Baby didn't say a word, and Brer Fox, he lay low.

"How are you feeling this morning?" says Brer Rabbit, says he.

Brer Fox, he winked his eye real slow and lay low and the Tar-Baby didn't say a thing.

"What is the matter with you then? Are you deaf?" says Brer Rabbit, says he. "Cause if you are, I can holler louder," says he.

The Tar-Baby stayed still and Brer Fox, he lay low.

"You're stuck-up, that's what's wrong with you. You think you're too good to talk to me," says Brer Rabbit, says he. "And I'm going to cure you, that's what I'm going to do," says he.

Brer Fox started to chuckle in his stomach, he did, but Tar-Baby didn't say a word.

"I'm going to teach you how to talk to respectable folks if it's my last act," says Brer Rabbit, says he. "If you don't take off that hat and say howdy, I'm going to bust you wide open," says he.

Tar-Baby stayed still and Brer Fox, he lay low.

Brer Rabbit kept on asking her why she wouldn't talk and the Tar-Baby kept on saying nothing until Brer Rabbit finally drew back his fist, he did, and blip--he hit the Tar-Baby on the jaw. But his fist stuck and he couldn't pull it loose. The tar held him. But Tar-Baby, she stayed still, and Brer Fox, he lay low.

"If you don't let me loose, I'm going to hit you again," says Brer Rabbit, says he, and with that he drew back his other fist and blap--he hit the Tar-Baby with the other hand and that one stuck fast too.

Tar-Baby she stayed still, and Brer Fox, he lay low.

"Turn me loose, before I kick the natural stuffing out of you," says Brer Rabbit, says he, but the Tar-Baby just sat there.

She just held on and then Brer Rabbit jumped her with both his feet. Brer Fox, he lay low. Then Brer Rabbit yelled out that if that Tar-Baby didn't turn him loose, he was going to butt her crank-sided. Then he butted her and his head got stuck.

Brer Fox walked out from behind the bushes and strolled over to Brer Rabbit, looking as innocent as a mockingbird.

"Howdy, Brer Rabbit," says Brer Fox, says he. "You look sort of stuck up this morning," says he. And he rolled on the ground and laughed and laughed until he couldn't laugh anymore.

By and by he said, "Well, I expect I got you this time, Brer Rabbit," says he. "Maybe I don't, but I expect I do. You've been around here sassing after me a mighty long time, but now it's the end.

And then you're always getting into something that's none of your business," says Brer Fox, says he. "Who asked you to come and strike up a conversation with this Tar-Baby? And who stuck you up the way you are? Nobody in the round world. You just jammed yourself into that Tar-Baby without waiting for an invitation," says Brer Fox, says he. "There you are and there you'll stay until I fix up a brushpile and fire it up, "cause I'm going to barbecue you today, for sure," says Brer Fox, says he.

Then Brer Rabbit started talking mighty humble.

"I don't care what you do with me, Brer Fox, says he, "Just so you don't fling me in that briar patch. Roast me, Brer Fox, says he, "But don't fling me in that briar patch."

"It's so much trouble to kindle a fire," says Brer Fox, says he, "that I expect I'd better hang you," says he.

"Hang me just as high as you please, Brer Fox, says Brer Rabbit, says he, "but for the Lord's sake, don't fling me in that briar patch," says he.

"I don't have any string, " says Brer Fox, says he, "Now I expect I had better drown you, " says he.

"Drown me just as deep as you please, Brer Fox," says Brer Rabbit, says he, "But please do not fling me in that briar patch, " says he.

"There's no water near here," says Brer Fox, says he, "And now I reckon I'd better skin you," says he.

"Skin me Brer Fox," says he. "Snatch out my eyeballs, tear out my ears by the roots," says he, "But please, Brer Fox, don't fling me in that briar patch, " says he.

Of course, Brer Fox wanted to get Brer Rabbit as bad as he could, so he caught him by the behind legs and slung him right in the middle of the briar patch. There was a considerable flutter when Brer Rabbit struck the bushes, and Brer Fox hung around to see what was going to happen.

By and by he heard someone call his name and 'way up on the hill he saw Brer Rabbit sitting cross-legged on a chinquapin log combing the tar pitch out of his hair with a chip. Then Brer Fox knew he had been tricked.

Brer Rabbit hollered out, "Born and bred in the briar patch. I was born and bred in the briar patch!" And with that he skipped out just as lively as a cricket in the embers of a fire.

End

[Warner2008]

51. So what? I support freedom of speech.

Even for Tony Snowjob.

[choie]

54. Oh, for God's sake....

I suppose the phrases "chink in the armor," "finger in the dike," "spick and span" and "calling a spade a spade" are horrific slurs to our Chinese, lesbian, Hispanic and black brothers and sisters.

Gimme a break. I have no doubt Snow is an asshat of the highest order, along with 99.9% of his fellow conservative shills. If Snow had said, "Why, of course the President is a great supporter of all African Americans, you've seen him embrace tarbabies numerous times," then hell yeah, that would've been intensely offensive and disgusting. We'd all be completely justified in calling for his resignation, or at the very very least a sincere apology.

But using a literary phrase from a children's classic in its proper context and with its original meaning intact is not racist. The Uncle Remus/Brer Rabbit stories were extremely popular and part of the cultural landscape for several generations. Maybe some don't recognize or "get" the references, but many others (perhaps the older folks among us) do.

Pop culture didn't start with Friends, Harry Potter and MTV, y'know.

[mtnester]

57. Double dog dare you to use "hug the tar baby" in a sentence, with the same

context, during a conversation with a group of african americans. See if they get the context by watching their reactions.

[choie]

59. The hell? What kind of a dare is that??

Why wouldn't I? Why, what do you think would happen if I used the term and someone didn't know the meaning? Those who know the books will understand the reference. Those who don't, won't, and presumably will ask me to clarify. He or she would raise a hand, ask me what I meant, and I'd explain the story. Big freakin' deal.

It's only armchair reactionaries who make these things into huge scandals just for the sport of it. Most black people -- like most people of every race, color & creed -- are waaay more concerned about real problems, not dumbass ignorant crap like this. And they surely wouldn't react to a misunderstanding the way idiots like you imply they would. I mean how paternalistic and demeaning can you get, implying that a) all blacks are ignorant of the Uncle Remus books, b) they're too hot-on-the-trigger and reactionary to ask for clarification, and worst of all, c) there's some "risk" in addressing a black audience, as if those who were offended would retaliate in some harsh way.

Yeah, you really need to "double-dog dare me." 'Cause them blacks is scaaaarrryyy!!111 Jesus.

[mtnester]

72. Name calling is always a good way to deal with any situation or discussion

Without knowing anything about me, you stooped to the word idiot, and some lame ass reference about armchair reactionary.

My point was, that no one with any sense would use that phrase as a parable or example of a point to make as a simple courtesy to the offensive connotation most folks have to the phrase.

I was thinking you would get more of the momentary shocked looks when using that phrase, and rightly so. From folks of any race. There would have been better phrases for Tony Snow to show off on...Gordian Knot comes to mind as one, and I am sure there are many others out there.

Now, I will hie my idiotic, armchair reactionary self out of this thread.

[Hepburn]

68. I grew up in a steel town in the mid-West and...

...before I went to 1st grade I knew that "tar baby" was NOT somthing that should be said.

[yellowcanine]

85. Huckleberry Finn used the "N word" but that doesn't mean it is ok

to use it in polite conversation. "Little Black Sambo" was extremely popular and part of the cultural landscape for several generations as was the "Eeny Meany miney mo, catch a N----- by the toe" children's rhyme. The "cultural landscape" is not a very good place to go looking for colloqial expressions. The cultural landscape of that time reflected the culture - which was racist. This argument reflects the arguments over the Confederate flag (yes I know, there is no such thing). Yes it is a cultural symbol but it is a racist one as well. Racism is going to trump culture every time. That is why I cringe when I hear "Eeny Meany Miney mo" with "Tiger" substituted for the "N" word. Maybe it will be ok in 100 years, but not now.

[madrchsod]

56. i find it offensive when it`s aimed at black children

and yes i`ve heard people use that and other fine descriptions through out my life. did tony use it in that context? i`m not really sure but i do know it`s really a poor choice of words.
here`s the link to the authors of the uncle remus tales
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Chandler_Harris
Joel Chandler Harris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[bonemachine]

60. Meh

I don't think this one is worth trying to get mileage out of.

[bvar22]

61. I was raised in the Old South,

and have never heard "tarbaby" used in a racist context.
I was raised in the '50s (New Orleans) and Uncle Remus was one of the books my mother used to teach us to read.
Walt Disney's "Song of the South" was a favorite movie.

THAT SAID:
I am aware that others find it offensive. Not just the term "tarbaby", but the entire Uncle Remus fables are offensive to some, so I don't use them. It is as esy to say, "I'm not going to catch that Tiger by the Tail.

The Disney Movie (Song of the South) is NOT available on DVD or Late Night Cable in the US because enough people find it offensive.


"Song of the South consists of animated sequences featuring Uncle Remus characters such as Br'er Rabbit, Br'er Fox, and Br'er Bear, framed by live-action portions in which Uncle Remus (portrayed by actor James Baskett, who won a special Oscar for his efforts) tells the stories to a little white boy upset over his parents' impending divorce. Although some Blacks have always been uneasy about the minstrel tradition of the Uncle Remus stories, the major objections to Song of the South had to do with the live action portions. The film has been criticized both for "making slavery appear pleasant" and "pretending slavery didn't exist", even though the film (like Harris' original collection of stories) is set after the Civil War and the abolition of slavery. "

http://www.snopes.com/disney/films/sots.htm

[IronLionZion]

62. Please, he wasn't using it in a racial way

unless sticky situations are racial. Hugging the tar baby is like getting yourself stuck in an impossible situation and you can't get out. Tony Snow is probably racist, but not because of this.

Remember when Adlai Stevenson used the word niggardly, and people thought it was racial?

from dictionary.com

1 entry found for tar baby.
tar baby
n.

A situation or problem from which it is virtually impossible to disentangle oneself.




2 entries found for niggardly.
nig·gard·ly Audio pronunciation of "niggardly" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ngrd-l)
adj.

1. Grudging and petty in giving or spending.
2. Meanly small; scanty or meager: left the waiter a niggardly tip.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

65. This is an odd one, alright.

I have never heard the term used in any other way except as a racial slur. I've never heard it used as a sticky situation term. And I am not arguing that it is used both ways, especially since most of the DUers above agree with the sticky term. But since some of us have obviously never heard the term in any other context except racial, you shouldn't demean our opinion. And I'm a white girl raised in a white neighborhood.

[IronLionZion]

70. OK

the exact opposite for me: I've never heard it used as a racial slur. I'm a brown guy who grew up in a white neighborhood.

Dictionary.com is very clear on the meaning of the term.

Sorry, I didn't mean to demean your opinion. But I hate it when people throw accusations of racism when it's not there. I've heard some offensive racial terms directed at me, but tarbaby isn't one of them. Tony Snow is probably racist for his active opposition to Martin Luther King day, but not for this. IMHO, there are much more important issues to discuss.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

73. And I'm willing to give even Mr. Snow the benefit of the doubt.

But there will be those who won't, especially if they were raised in areas of the country where the word was used as a racist term. Isn't it nice though that we can be on the side where we would rather defend than defeat if we feel the man made an honest mistake? I doubt many pubs would do that. BTW, the sorry wasn't necessary. I was just revealing another side to the cow that the blind man was trying to describe.
:pals:

[BlueIris]

66. YUCK.

My GOD. This appointment MUST have been the result of Bush's own handlers really trying to screw him. Maybe they've...succeeded?

[electron_blue]

71. Snow is the gift who keeps on giving

Gift to the Dems, that is.

Ftr, I've never heard tar baby used in a racist way, but I'm aware enough of Brer Rabbit to know that it rubs many people the wrong way. Some topics you just know to stay away from, publicly. Apparently Snow doesn't, so the guffaws will probably kee coming.

[MrBenchley]

78. Telling...and hilarious....

[yellowcanine]

82. It is from Uncle Remus but it does have racist overtones as well. So a

spokesperson for the President would be advised not to use it and he should demonstrate his acknowledgement of that fact by QUICKLY offering a sincere apology (none of this "IF anyone was offended" B.S.) and moving on.

[Why Syzygy]

90. I gave up the use of that phrase a long time ago ..

Change it to "sticky wicket".

[leftofthedial]

91. I hate the lying POS, but this is not an ethnic slur

it is a literary reference

[onehandle]

92. It's both.

From literature. Became a slur. I asked someone about the term who works in Human Resources. Throw around "tar baby" at work and kiss your job goodbye.

Tar Baby:
The expression tar baby is also used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people (in the U.S. it refers to African-Americans; in New Zealand it refers to Maoris), or among blacks as a term for a particularly dark-skinned person. As a result, some people suggest avoiding the use of the term in any context.
http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990212

The Racial Slur Database:
Tar Baby Represents: Blacks Reasons/Origins: Skin color. From the "Uncle Remus" (Br'er Rabbit) story.
http://www.rsdb.org /

List of Ethnic Slurs
Tar baby (U.K.; U.S.; and N.Z.) a black child.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_slurs

[leftofthedial]

93. so if he said, "call a spade a spade"

by your "logic," he's saying a racial epithet?

and John Lennon was a well-known bigot and racist. After all he wrote a song called "Woman is the Nigger of the World."

And if he'd said, "that's a broad generalization," he'd be a misogynist.

[onehandle]

94. This is the Press Secretary of the White House.

Communications is supposed to be his specialty.

I'm saying that he made a moronic gaffe on his first day and we can look forward to more.

[leftofthedial]

97. I'm sure there will be lies and gaffes aplenty

but this was not racist.

[Radio_Guy]

95. Just because many don't use it as a racial slur

does not mean Tony Snow didn't mean it as a racial slur. He has a history of racism, people.

[onenote]

96. which is why context matters

explain how, in the context it was used, it was meant as a racial slur as opposed to its meaning as a "sticky situation" -- the same meaning that several DUers have used it to convey in posts this month, as have numerous commentators on the Iraq war (including Huffington, Kunstler).

[appal_jack]

103. I only knew the Michelle Shocked reference

From a song on Arkansas Traveller (approximate quotation via my often-addled memory) by Michelle Shocked:

Tar baby, tar baby, tell me true
Who is really the jigaboo?
Is it the white man, white man
Talking that jive?
Or the black, say the black
Trying to stay alive?

I've never read Brer Rabbit, so I always knew "Tar baby" as a racial slur, and I don't use the term in conversation at all.

That whole Arkansas Traveler album made some interesting points about Southern Blackface (i.e.- white actors wearing shoe polish) performances. If I recall, her main thought was that even though it all appeared horribly racist on the surface, the imitations of the "other" race were a necessary first step in bridging a cultural gap and achieving cross-cultural understanding.

I'm not sure I buy that argument, but I've found it interesting to chew on, and figured I would toss it out into this discussion. Hope it's not too much gasoline on the fire...

-app