Former DNC chair, Don Fowler, sends letter of support for Dean's strategy.

[madfloridian]

I watched the snide attitude of Carville briefly on Larry King tonight. When he started implying that Dean (he did not say his name..did not have to) wasn't providing enough money to the "committees", I turned it off. He annoys me greatly.

Then I read this, and I so appreciate it.

Donnie Fowler, his son, posts the letter at Huff Post. One person makes the comment there that it is nice for someone who was an insider, still is, to come out with a letter like this. Good for him for having vision.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/donnie-fowler/former-dnc-chair-fowler-t_b_21479.html

To: Democratic Party Leaders
From: Don Fowler


Recent complaints by some Washington pundits with limited agendas that the Democratic National Committee should withdraw support from state Democratic parties are short-sighted and misplaced.

One of the long-time shortcomings of the Democratic National Committee has been its control by Washington people whose visions dim south of the Potomac, west of Chevy Chase, and north of RFK stadium. This lack of understanding of anything much about American politics other than the fees of Washington campaign consultants is what has given our party defeats in 2000, 2002, and 2004. We Democrats shouldn't be led down that same bumpy road in 2006 and 2008.

I did not support Howard Dean in his campaign for Chair of the DNC. I supported my son, who also ran. But one thing Governor Dean has done that is absolutely right is his support -- financial, organizational, and technological -- for state parties. Many of our Party's difficulties during the last three elections have been due to weak state parties. Governor Dean, to his great credit, pledged during his campaign for Chair to change this sad state of affairs. He has kept his word and deserves our appreciation -- he certainly has mine.

Republicans learned this lesson decades ago, and strong RNC support for their state parties has paid off. One could make a valid case that their state party strength compared to Democrats' state party weakness is the principal reason for their growth and victories in the 1980s, 1990s, and the first three elections of this new century.

Then at the end he adds this. Thanks, former chairman Fowler.

Vast majorities of Democrats outside the Beltway support GovernorDean's policy of reinvigorating state parties. Our message to the DNC: Keep it up. We're on the road to victory.

-----------------------

Donald L. Fowler, Member
Democratic National Committee
P.O. Box 50627 - 2725 Devine Street
Columbia, SC 29250

[BeFree]

1. Well

... when they start talking about Diebold, I'll start listening. The rest of it is pissing in the wind, at this point.

Still, what Dean is doing had better pan out, or his ass is grass. When is Dean gonna nail Diebold, any idea?

[madfloridian]

2. "his ass is grass" "when is Dean gonna nail Diebold" "pissing in wind"

Your post does not at all respond to the post I wrote about what Donnie Fowler said.

All of our asses will be grass if we keep attitudes like that.

Hey, yeh, Dean's gonna walk right up to the big bad Diebold and tell them to straighten out.

Love that positive attitude.

[BeFree]

4. His attitude is worse

... the last two presidential elections have been stolen! What, are you saying I should get over it? That I'm just a sore-loserman?

Our asses are grass, haven't you noticed?

Yes, Dean should walk right up to Diebold and tell them to straighten out. You don't think he should?

[madfloridian]

5. What's the matter? I only posted something nice.

This is ridiculous the way people here act over things. It is not even sensible what you suggested.

And by now, after someone posts stuff like this....it keeps others who might think it was something nice to begin with from posting or commenting.

[BeFree]

6. What is there to be nice about?

Don't take it too personal, it's not your fault.

But I guess you are telling me to get over it? That I am acting ridiculous? What's nice about that?

[madfloridian]

7. I don't know what your problem is....

:shrug:

[BeFree]

15. Duh....

Here is my problem: they stole the election!!

And what is the party doing? Nothing. It is only a grssroots effort that is working to save our votes. I thought by now the party would help us grassroots... but no. They can't even pull together to pass legislation. ie, the HR550 bill.

If the party refuses to work with us, we will see a replay of 2002, and 2004. The party could end the nightmare, but it hasn't made a move. That is my problem and I can't believe you don't care.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. What's the matter?

I'll tell you what's the matter. Every fucking day its another 'Dean did this Dean did that' post from you.

We have REAL FUCKING PROBLEMS to deal with. All you ever do is wave that flag of personality.

Look, Dean is doing a pretty good job, on balance. The idea of challenging him on vote cheating is valid and real. It is THE numero uno issue we face going forward, so to ask what the titular head of the party is doing about it is DAMNED valid.

Maybe you could limit these cheerleader posts to a once-a-week compendium. I don't need to know every time somethng gets added to the DNC website or every time some former rival praises him, or every time he utters more than two words, much less every time he's scheduled to sit on the pot with a magazine.

Your posts are tedious and whenever someone says one thing against your guy, you get all passive-agressive and play victim.

Here's a clue .... 04 is is soooo 04.

[madfloridian]

21. You should be ashamed for posting that.

The talking points used here are just that, to keep me from posting what I want. I posted something positive and my thread is being turned into somerhing ugly.

Now, call me a martyr...that is another talking point here. Then tell me I make Dean look bad...that is something you guys use to shut us up here.

[Stinky The Clown]

22. If it were just me ......

.... your points would carry more weight.

Unfortunately, that's not the case.

I stand by what I said.

[madfloridian]

23. Shades of 04

deja vu all over again.

I will continue to post what I think is fair. If you wish to continue to turn any thing I post into a pissing contest and pretend everyone feels the same thing...go ahead.

[Stinky The Clown]

26. Look around ..... you know exactly what I'm talking about

.... stop pretending you don't.

And what do you mean, exactly, by 'shades of 04'?

I was pretty direct with you. Can you be just as direct in reply?

[madfloridian]

32. I know that there are some who don't want me to post about Dean or the DNC

Because of 04 and because of 08. I don't take it personally at all.

It goes on all the time, and I am used to it. I am proud of being active in the DNC and in DFA. I intend to post about it here if I wish without insulting anyone.

Making it about me is a tactic that has been overused to the point of being ridiculous, and people are catching on.

[Stinky The Clown]

42. Your use of the word 'some' .......

..... deflects from you taking issue with what **I** said.

What did **I** say that made you go immediately to the old saw about '04 and 08'.

Be explicit and clear.

[madfloridian]

64. I think the word I need to use very carefully here is....

possible intimidation to discourage me from posting. I use the word carefully because many were intimidated in the past.

I will not be offensive, but I will post what I wish.

[Stinky The Clown]

Quite simply, you didn't answer my question

What did anything I say have to do with 04 or 08?

You continually refuse to answer that one question.

[KoKo]

62. Have you ever heard of the DU "Ignore Button" ...maybe you should

use it for the posts that annoy you.

[Rose Siding]

70. Sounds like a personal problem

I'm not aware of any secret gang of DUers who resent posts about goings on within the Democratic party.

[Rose Siding]

24. I'm certainly interested in what goes on at the DNC

Your attack is what's tedious. As chair, what Dean is doing is very important to Democrats. *checks name of web site* Yep, this is exactly the right place for that.

[madfloridian]

25. Thank you.

very much.

[Rose Siding]

31. No- thank you

I rarely read through HuffPost and I would have missed this.

Any encouraging news is welcomed by me. :hug:

[janx]

34. For the record,

so am I! What Carville and Begala have been doing recently is awful. It's great to see support for the DNC and its efforts. :hi:

The results will be very interesting.

[KoKo]

59. What the Hell is wrong with you? Are you the DU Police telling people

what and when to post? Howard Dean, in case you don't know is the Head of the Democratic National Committee. This is his current position.

You thought he was still running for President? Where have you been?

Sheesh...what a nasty, uninformed post...

[Stinky The Clown]

78. Nasty? Perhaps. Uninformed? Hardly.

[JNelson6563]

82. Let us not use selective vision

Come now friend, there is an entire cadre here who's sole purpose is to promote their candidate. You see them only in threads about their guy, they swarm and critic and act almost Amway like in their support. And you take issue with MF here? I don't think that is very fair of you and I am shocked to see you use such a tone in these posts, especially in light of the fact I have not yet seen you take issue with much more blatant practitioners of what you are asserting here.

A bit disappointing as you've always struck me as more of a big picture guy.

Julie

[MaineDem]

9. At the last DNC meeting, broadcast on C-SPAN...

... the Rules and Bylaws Committee said they will be presenting a proposal at the next meeting that there be a verifiable paper trail.

[flpoljunkie]

10. Isn't this way too late for paper trail for '06? Why bother now?

The Baker Carter Commission recommended a paper trail, and while some states have mandated them, Bush's rubber stamp Congress has made sure nothing will be done for 2006 regarding a paper trail. The Democrat's various bills have not come out of committee, and, if they did, it would be too late now to mandate a paper trail for 2006. This is the idea, of course.

[JNelson6563]

11. Not entirely

See, you can fix the voting machines but if you still have no party presence in many of the states you LOSE.

This attitude of "fix the machines or nothing coutns" strikes me as one of the lamest excuses to sit on one's ass an scream bloody murder and do absolutely nothing to build the party and get Dems elected.

Julie

[MaineDem]

13. I hope people are active in state House and Senate races to fix this

It's in the state Legislatures that these laws are passed. I hope people are working to elect Democratic majorities so voting rights laws will be enacted in every state.

How about citizen initiatives in those states that allow them?

Thanks, Julie. I agrre with you this does seem like an excuse and there are so many ways to address it along with building the Party.

[BeFree]

14. Don't sling that shit at me

We got out the vote in 2004. More Dems than ever were enlisted to go vote. I was more active in 2004 than ever. And what happened? They stole the election. So yeah, it is the most important thing going: stopping them from stealing another one.

If you think all is find and dandy, we have a problem. You got personal with me claiming my attitude is a lame excuse. I call your BS and raise you one: What are you doing to keep them from stealing it again?

[madfloridian]

16. I posted something positive, which is rare here anymore.

You have made this thread into something ugly and personal and vicious.

[BeFree]

38. Why interject yourself here?

I was responding to J. but you jumped in with your personal abutment. Let J respond. Butt out.

[madfloridian]

40. "butt out" No, I won't.

I have as much right to be here in a thread I started as you do.

[BeFree]

45. Yes, you do

But you tried to run me off. Tried to tell me to butt out from questioning Dean and the party. Can you say hypocritical?

[Jim Sagle]

90. Keeping posting, buddy. Don't let anybody stop you.

Ain't none of the naysayers worth a goddamn, anyhow.

[JNelson6563]

79. It is a bi-ped creature

Elections take two things to win, voters and countable votes. Most of my work goes to getting the voters though I am on board with our Secretary of State candidate who is all about keeping Michigan from join the Hall of Electoral Shame that includes Florida and Ohio. Her name is Mary Waters and she's currently a state Rep.

So, tell us, what are you actually DOING about the vote issue? Besides posting criticism on the internet for anyone doing anything BUT work on that?

Julie

[BeFree]

84. Since you asked

... I did considerable work in my local jurisdiction letting nearly all my county commissioners, and election officials know about the problem, and saw some success.

I conversed several times with my state senator and helped convince him to get our state to adopt a VVPB.

I stop politically minded folks on the street and plant the seed.

Any ideas on what to do next?

[Stinky The Clown]

18. Julie, you don't honestly think the ones 'screaming bloody murder'

are either wrong minded, or one issue people, do you?

Honestly?

[madfloridian]

20. Not sure how that was meant...

But I think that when someone can not even understand a positive message, then we have a problem.

I think Julie is right on this....winning involves all factors. The worst problems we have right now are our own Democratic forums attacking each other and the media which is kissing the collective asses of the Bush administration.

I posted a positive rather cheery post, and it was turned into something ugly.

[JNelson6563]

80. Not all

Just those who dismiss all other political work as worthless. I realize most who actually do WORK on getting our elections fair and honest see the value in getting folks to vote our way. One dead give-away is that they tend to be encouraging of such efforts, not scornful.

Julie

[BeFree]

85. Show me

... one case of what you are alledging. A case of one serious activist who claims that people should not vote.

Its is BS to say ER activists are trying to stop people from voting, plain BS.

[IndyOp]

44. We have to cover *all* bases - voter registration, get out the vote,

excellent candidates, excellent campaigns, neighbor-to-neighbor interaction, and prepare to deal with fraud that *will* happen in 2006: What do we do when voters who are registered are told at the poll they aren't on the list to vote? When voters cast provisional ballots and those ballots are not counted? When electronic fraud happens - how do we detect it and what do we do afterwards? Action must be immediate to have any effect on the outcome of the race. Democratic candidates must *not* concede at an apparent loss until thorough investigations of the fairness of the election have been completed.

I appreciate the OP - I appreciate Don Fowler's very straight statement about Carville (who should be flushed down the same john as all of the other entrenched Dem consultants).

I appreciate Dean tremendously - here in Indiana he has provided the funding that is allowing the state party to challenge the voter id law that suppressed voters in our May primaries.

AND WE NEED A COMPREHENSIVE NATIONAL STRATEGY TO INHIBIT, DETECT AND FIGHT FRAUD -- a fat bound volume that is delivered directly into the hands of every Dem Party county leader in the nation.

The DNC as a national entity, cannot protect the elections in every state - though they should be dedicating staff to protecting the most endangered elections. The DNC does need to produce a national strategy that educates, warns, and instructs Dems across the nation about what we have to DO to protect our 2006 elections.

:kick:

[Stinky The Clown]

48. The "DNC as a national entity, cannot protect the elections in every ...."

.... state"

Correct. It is a state issue. Sorta. The HAVA caused a lot of the problems. That's national.

Correct. It is a state issue. Sorta. The DNC could be leading the charge in a loud, clear, determined way.

[IndyOp]

50. The DNC could be leading the charge in a loud, clear, determined way.

EXACTLY!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

At this point we cannot do a damned thing about HAVA in the next 6 months, with a Rethug dominated House and Senate. We have to have a work-around strategy.

[JNelson6563]

81. Exactly!

Either one without the other is not much use.

Julie

[Kolesar]

54. Very tasteful, and understated IMHO

I am long tired of posters slapping terse, unenlightening "stolen election" comments where they don't belong.

[ChiciB1]

63. Thanks For The Post... It's About Time Carville, Begala & Emmanuel

get a little come-uppence. They have really been making me puke too!

They are the "Hillary For President" team and I'm NOT GOING THERE!!

[madfloridian]

3. Again, thanks to a former DNC chair for a thoughtful letter.

That was the topic, that a former chair understands the importance of building the party.

It would be so nice here to not have sniping all the time. It is discouraging.

[OzarkDem]

76. He made very good points

The 50 state strategy is working, the Dem party is coming alive again - right down the street in everyone's community.

[Old and In the Way]

8. It's nice to see some closing of the ranks behind Dean.

Dean's done a great job at DNC and he is doing the right thing from a long term standpoint.

[Adelante]

12. Happy to see this support

Dean's 50 state strategy is the way to go and sensible Democrats know it.

[Stinky The Clown]

19. All on its own, the 50 state strategy is the best thing since sliced bread

But it is not the only thing needed.

I don't take one thing away from the DNC for getting this 50 state strategy out there, up, and running. It is nothing short of huge (or hugh) that we're fielding more house challengers than at any time in the entire history of the Democratic party.

But there are other issues as well.

Like vote cheating. And on this point we get ... not very damned much.

[Adelante]

30. Election reform

I actually hold Congressional leaders more responsible on that score, slightly. I hold Gore and Kerry responsible, as well. Nobody has to tell me Gore fought 36 days or that Kerry has lawsuits in. That's only good as far as it goes. In the current New York Magazine issue Gore says he's not ready to talk about it. Give me a fucking break. What I want to see is leadership, stong enduring leadership on voting reform and Congressional investigations into the entire election system so that it's all official and so the American public can understand how we got where we are. I want Kerry to be running a regular BCCI-style investigation into the elections of the past six years. I don't give two shits how either one of our recent nominees feels he will appear or how painful it may be emotionally. Courage, boys. I want action and commitment to this. I wanted to see it from 2001-2004. I wanted to see it from 2004-2006. I want to see it 2006-2008. I see barely a blip on the biggest electoral catastrophe this country has ever known. We're going to be in the same position this November as we've been since this gang of thugs took office. Dean alone is not responsible. Even Democrats alone are not responsible. It's the whole goddamned political establishment who is responsible.

[Stinky The Clown]

39. Well said ... and no disagreement

And as I see it, challenging them is our duty.

That is NOT to tear them down on other issues. This is but one issue. We all like to say we don't agree with any given person on all issues. Ths is a case where that is demonstrated. Since this is a Dean thread, Dean was challenged, but my comments apply equally to Gore, to Kerry, to Pelosi, to Reid, to Schumer, to Emanuel, to Daschle, to Gephart, to .... etc.

They are all beyond a mere 'good' on many, many issues. They're excellent.

But across the board, on this VITAL issue, they all get failing marks.

[janx]

47. ...

http://www.dnc.org/a/2006/05/governor_dean_o_17.php

We are expanding the work of the Voting Rights Institute to promote efforts aimed at protecting the right of every American to cast their ballot and have their ballot counted.

We formed the National Lawyers Council to fight systematic barriers to registration and voting across the country, and through the NLC we are providing legal assistance to the Indiana Democratic Party's appeal of a federal court ruling upholding that state's radical voter ID law.

The Voting Rights Institute established a toll free number to help displaced New Orleans residents vote in the April 22 primaries and to collect information about Indiana voters who were disenfranchised by the voter ID law.

I know you have done important work here in New York through the NY Democratic Lawyers Council.

You did important work in monitoring the 2005 mayoral race in New York City and local races in Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockland and Ulster Counties.

You dispatched a team of lawyers to conduct election monitoring for New Orleans mayoral primary and other local races.

You worked on the Board of Elections regulations for voting machines, and you have been working with the New York State Democratic Senate Campaign Committee and the DCCC to work on election monitoring in key races 2006 so we can take back Congress and take back the NY Senate

I applaud you and thank you for those efforts.

The work you do matters, we know, for example, that voters in Ohio in 2004 were disenfranchised by a faulty election system. If you were an African American you waited an average of 52 minutes to vote. If you were white, you waited an average of 18 minutes. If you were young and African American you were more likely to be asked to provide photo ID, in violation of Ohio law.

We know that there are real people, real legitimately registered voters in Indiana who were disenfranchised by the Indiana Voter ID law during the primaries there earlier this month. For example:

* The newlywed couple from Marion County who were both registered voters had gotten married since they last voted in 2004. The husband was allowed to vote but the wife was not because her name changed and it did not match her photo ID.

* Or the married woman from Vanderburgh County who was driven by her husband (she does not drive) to the Department of Motor Vehicles to get an ID presented her social security card, her medical card, even her voting card, but she was denied a photo ID because she did not have a birth certificate.

* Or the Postal employee wearing her full uniform who could not vote because election workers deemed her U.S.-government-issued employment identification to be an unacceptable form of identification because it did not have an expiration date.

These are real people who were denied their right to vote. If even one legitimate voter is denied their right to vote, than these laws need to be overturned or blocked.

That is why Democrats will continue to fight unfair Voter ID laws and other efforts to prevent lawfully registered voters, in particular, seniors, young people, minorities and low-income citizens from casting their ballots.

The amazing thing about this organization is that it brings together lawyers from a variety of fields of practice. They are united by their committment to the Democratic Party and their passion for upholding the law. More than anything I was surprised by the variety of people in attendance - some were seasoned professionals and some were young associates. They were all passionate.

A mother who wore a button that read "John McCain Doesn't Speak For Me," expressed her outrage over having to sit through graduation exercises and listen to John McCain last weekend as her daughter graduated, and this weekend, John Roberts, at her son's law school commencement. "It's a knife through the heart of a progressive mother," she told me.

A recent law school graduate dished on what it was really like to be a 1st year associate, but went on to say she was glad she could be a part of the NYDLC and work to make sure voting rights are protected.

A seasoned lawyer told me about his experience as part of the election protection team in Florida during the 2004 election and how he had to be part of the effort after watching what happened in 2000.

The bottom line is that groups like these demonstrate the power each person has to make a difference by bringing their particular skills and talents to the table for Democracy.

The New York Democratic Lawyers Concil, a chapter of the National Democratic Lawyers Council, is a statewide coalition of volunteer lawyers and law students committed to a simple yet fundamental proposition: that among the best ways to protect and promote a strong democracy is to protect and promote an accessible, open and fair election process.

Building on the tremendous election protection effort of 2004, the NYDLC/NLC will work closely with the Party at the national, state and local levels to promote voting rights and to identify and combat problems that undermine, either directly or indirectly, those rights. While the Council will work with the Party on other issues, its foremost objective is to organize early in every state and territory to carry out the Democratic Party’s commitment to this goal.

[Stinky The Clown]

52. I'm aware of this ... but I am still caused to wonder .......

.... what if, the next time Dean gets a teevee slot on a yak show, how about if he just plain avoids the question (like every damned Rublican routinely does when he has his own agenda) and just bring this up and talk about it? Might he not be invited back cuz he's a bad guest? I suspect not.

Do you remember that 'you've got the power' thing? I believed him when he said it and I still believe it. Challeneging the party to speak up is part of that.

That party challenging the country(media) to speak up is part of that.

Its not that they don't have some good ideas and some great website words ..... but "what are they doing about it" remains a very valid question to ask.

Frequently.

[janx]

55. The web site outlines exactly what's being done--

at federal, state, and local levels. And some very competent people are involved in the effort.

[Stinky The Clown]

57. I understand that, and I'm not arguing against it

I know what they've posted and I understand their plans and ideas ..... my point is we need some loud, in your face, *leadership* on this. I refer to my post immediately above yours in this subthread ...... why not use their air time to raise the national consciousness?

In many ways, that's all we can hope for from the DNC, given their place/authority/role in all this. But to just keep it posted on a wedsite, for me, at least, is not very effective. The only way this is going to get legs is to .... well .... scream it from the rooftops. The DNC may or may not be able to do x, y, or z, but they can **sure** clear the path for the fixers of x, y, and z.

[Rose Siding]

27. K&R That's good to see.

Any indications of a coalition forming in opposition to the consultant class are important. CTG, baby.

[madfloridian]

28. My apologies for what this thread disintegrated into...what it became.

When I posted it last night, it never occurred to me I was doing anything even controversial. It was a letter posted by Donnie Fowler from his dad, Don. After a rough week, I thought it was a nice gesture.

In a way though, the things that happened in this thread illustrate very clearly what we are facing at Democratic forums for the next two years.

It is becoming territorial here already. We should realize the statements in this post directed toward me, are not really about me at all. They are not about me at all. They are about 04 and about 08.

[Stinky The Clown]

33. I was the one who disagreed with you .........

Please explain in clear, plain, unadulterated American English how this is about 04 and 08.

My points were two:

1: This is just another cheerleader thread

2: Number 1 was prompted when you objected to someone deigning to get into your thread and pose the very real question about what the DNC is doing about vote stealing.

Your post to which I am now replying states that the objecting is rooted in something else - specifically 04 and 08.

PLEASE be clear and state what that 'something else' is.

[madfloridian]

36. There are "cheerleader" threads all the time here, my friend.

When I say it is becoming territorial here already and we are two years from 08....it should tell you something.

This is a Democratic forum. I hurt no one when I post something like this. It is about the party, and it did not attack any person at all.

Look, you don't like what I post. I am sorry. You don't like me. Sorry about that, also.

But since nothing will change your mind, I don't think my changing my personality to suit you would matter.

[janx]

41. H2S, I agree with you much more often than I disagree.

But this isn't one of those times. "Cheerleader thread"...Do you read DU the same way I do? On any given day, there are loads of cheerleader threads--especially in GDP. And they aren't about the DNC. I'm tired of them, but I'm not about to swear at whoever posted them. I just hit the hide thread button. It would be a waste of time to go through all of those posts. Frankly, I thought that the DU Groups were the places for those; only "supporters" of former candidates post in them anyway, making them nothing more than echo chambers. But c'est la vie, eh?

If MF wants to post positive things about the DNC, what's wrong with that?

[Stinky The Clown]

46. Janx, here's the thing ........

...... there are, as you say, far too many cheerleader threads. I find all of them not only tedious, but counterproductive. They don't convince anymore. They simply harden opposition, which is the exact **opposite** of the intent of the various posters.

And I've spoken out against them generically.

A lot.

But in this particular thread, a valid question was posed: What is the DNC (Dean) doing about vote stealing?

The question was deflected, not by reason but by feigned and disingenuous martyrdom. In other cheerleader threads (the few I even bother to read) at least I *generally** see some level of engagement on the issues. So at least some substance is being thrown around. I don't view them any less as cheerleader threads, but at least they get that far.

[janx]

49. I posted one link in another reply to you.

There are more.

If you go to the DNC web site and do a search for "fraud," you'll find some useful information. It would have been more productive had BeFree done so.

[Stinky The Clown]

53. I replied to your post above

I'm not totally without a clue as to what the DNC is doing and what they have on the site.

[KoKo]

66. Why do you feel we shouldn't be cheerleading the DNC and support

for its Head? Why bring in "voting issues" into a thread about support for Dean's policies which have been under constant attack by the RW and Dem Insiders who don't want grassroots organizing?

If folks here like you and "BeFee" want to criticize Dean about voting then send him an e-mail at DNC. To attack another DU'er this way was way OTT and to tell her she shouldn't post was putting you in the position of looking like a bully.

[Stinky The Clown]

72. The question about voting being posed here is valid

As were my comments to the DNC by phone (which is a local call for me, so they and my house and senate reps hear from me by voice).

There was nothng I said that was in opposition to the DNC, per se. My own involvement here was to challenge the obfusctional response to a specifc and valid question that I, too would like to have answered.

[BeFree]

35. You are right

It is not about you, but you made questions directed at Dean and the party into attacks on you. You made it personal. Good job.

Ya know, if ya can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[madfloridian]

37. No, I am staying. I posted nice, you made it ugly.

I did nothing wrong at all.

[BeFree]

43. You are still making it personal.

It is not your fault the elections were stolen. It isn't even Dean's fault, but it is the party's fault, but as the party's leader, I will hold Dean responsible if it happens again without an action to stop it from happening. All you did, bless your heart, was open the door to questioning Dean's leadership. That, and make it seem like an attack on you.

[madfloridian]

51. Don't pretend it is about me.

Most people see beyond the things said to me here. They might not step into a thread once posts like yours are made first thing...like the ass is grass stuff.

But most understand it goes much deeper, and it is going to get much worse here before it is over.

[BeFree]

56. You are the one pretending

This is NOT about you. It is about making sure every vote is counted. Correctly.

It is my contention that the party has failed, will fail again, in that regard. That's not your fault, is it?

[KoKo]

74. If you disagree with Dean's leadership then who would you suggest

would have led the DNC into calling attention to Voting Fraud? If it's Dean you have the problem with then it would be good to know what the alternative is. He's been excellent on grassroots support that we didn't have before. He's given us money for computers and the ability to even get updated lists of Democratic voter that we didn't have before.

What really could he have done to stop HAVA Act? What good does it do for him to say DON'T VOTE...because it's all CORRUPT. I have no doubt he cares about this issue but it's the job of others to do something about it. And, folks ARE TRYING. Getting a Verified Voter Ballot Bill through the NC Legislature was a huge step in our state. Getting EFF to come in and fight against those who tried to stop the bill and put Diebold machines in was important. And, these activits were former Dean workers.

That's why the attack on Dean seems unfair when this poster was merely posting a letter of support for Dean's efforts when so many have been bashing him on both the left and right. :shrug:

[BeFree]

83. The 'attack'...

...was not a personal attack. It was rather an indictment of the party leadership as it concerns the e-fraud, and not counting every vote.

Kerry said: "Count every vote", what happened to that? Was that BS or do the leaders really mean what they said? It looks like they've all forgotten, eh?

[KoKo]

87. Your issue should be taken up with Kerry, then...not Dean. Kerry was the

Nominee along with John Edwards. I think it should be on "THIER BACKS" to go after corrupt voting standards. Starting with Ohio and working back to FLA and GA and all those inbetween.

I don't see how this falls on Dean's head. :shrug:

[Upfront]

88. Hey Mad

You just keep the Dean stuff coming, I love it. The man should be President.

[madfloridian]

89. Hi there.

Haven't seen you around in a while. :hi:

[progressoid]

29. Good for him. Carville creeps me out too.

[madfloridian]

58. Hurting each other as Democrats.

Good job, madfloridian, you did it again. You brought out the worst in all of us here.

We have the media against us, going after our Democrats one after the other. We have the GOP attacking us with their huge financial advantage. We have all of us attacking each other here on a grand scale.

All because former chair Don Fowler said something nice in an otherwise dark week for our party. The other side makes fun of us all the time, and then we come to DU and make fun of each other.

[Stinky The Clown]

60. "All because former chair Don Fowler said something nice"

A critical re-read of this thread will give lie to that statement.

It went awry when you obfuscated on a valid question about what the DNC(Dean) is doing about vote stealing.

[madfloridian]

61. You made it personal about me. Not the first time.

I do not intend to back down again.

Or should I say you tried to do that. I did not let you do it this time.

The first response to this said Dean's ass was grass, talking about pissing in the wind....when it did have to set such a negative tone to a post that was not negative.

Making every thread about that is wrong. Janx above is trying to communicate, many of us have posted stuff on that.

[Stinky The Clown]

65. What are you talking about?

[madfloridian]

67. This.

What you posted above, just like what you have posted before. It is not necessary and stuff like this hurts all of us, not just me. I won't back down anymore. You tell me I should only post once a week, but that is not your decision to make. There was nothing offensive about my OP, but it has now become a mission to protect myself.

Quote:
"I'll tell you what's the matter. Every fucking day its another 'Dean did this Dean did that' post from you.

We have REAL FUCKING PROBLEMS to deal with. All you ever do is wave that flag of personality.

Look, Dean is doing a pretty good job, on balance. The idea of challenging him on vote cheating is valid and real. It is THE numero uno issue we face going forward, so to ask what the titular head of the party is doing about it is DAMNED valid.

Maybe you could limit these cheerleader posts to a once-a-week compendium. I don't need to know every time somethng gets added to the DNC website or every time some former rival praises him, or every time he utters more than two words, much less every time he's scheduled to sit on the pot with a magazine.

Your posts are tedious and whenever someone says one thing against your guy, you get all passive-agressive and play victim.

Here's a clue .... 04 is is soooo 04."

[Stinky The Clown]

75. You're right, there was nothing offensive in your OP

Where it went south was when you blew off a valid question about voting. Not one I posed, I might add.

[madfloridian]

77. And you went south by suggesting I post once a week.

and other good stuff. No sense in that, and it is making discussion difficult at DU right now.

I did not "blow off" the voting issue. I did not like the personal insults and I stood my ground.

You don't have to like me at all, just respect my space.

[KoKo]

69. Perhaps you could answer my Post #66

instead of trying to drag "voting issues" into a statement by Don Fowler supporting Dean's Grassroots strategy, and harrassing the OP.

[madfloridian]

71. Appreciated

People are getting afraid to post in threads I start at times, it is getting that bad. I thought this was totally unoffensive at a tense time, but now I see it was not.

Thanks.

[Stinky The Clown]

73. I stand by what I said in post No 60

[flpoljunkie]

68. Carville also said that "Russ Feingold is going to be a big factor" in '08

KING: McCain a lock?

CARVILLE: No. Nobody's a lock. And I think Senator Clinton, who I happen to know pretty well, she doesn't think that she's a lock. There are going to be a lot of Democrats running for this. I wouldn't be surprised if you have six or seven top-tier candidates...

L. KING: ... Gore too?

CARVILLE: Very well could. I have a theory, but it's a theory like evolution's a theory, OK? It's been proven a thousand times. Anybody that has ever run for president or vice president wants to run again. He may be. But -- I won't get into that. He wants to run for president.

L. KING: He does?

CARVILLE: It's like - running for president is like having sex. You don't do it once and say, "Well, I've already done that, I'll move on to something else."

And so there's going to be a lot of Democrats and a lot of Republicans that are going to get that -- who have run before are going to get out there. A lot of Democrats -- a lot of Democrats are saying, "You know, I should have gone in '04, and I'm not going to sit this out."

I think Senator Clinton -- and I think she'll win because I think the world of her. I think she's very smart, very tough and I think she understands that. And I know for a fact she doesn't look at these polls and say I'm the front-runner. I don't think she's going to run a classic front-runner campaign.

But it's going to be tough. Governor Warner, Russ Feingold's going to be a big factor in this. Senator Biden may run. Senator Dodd may run.

ROBERTS: Edwards is out there.

CARVILE: Edwards is out there. Senator Bayh's raising money hand over foot.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: I'm getting the thing if I don't mention someone I'll get 100 calls. But they're going to be out there.

ROBERTS: At the last Republican convention I talked with Zell Miller and he said there's no Democrat out there who I could vote for because there's no Democrat out there that shares my conservative values. I said, "Well, what Democrat could you vote for president?" He said Evan Bayh.

CARVILLE: He's endorsed Ralph Reed, so there's not many Ralph Reed Democrats out there.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0605/22/lkl.01.html

[KoKo]

86. Kick for a good endorsement of Deans Policies from the father of

Donnie who ran against Dean for DNC Chair. Just ignore the Good DU'ers gone Wild posts. The main issue is the letter from Fowler Senior.

[oc2002]

91. the 50 state strategy is the right one. Lets help by contributions, not by

attacks on this enorumous effort to rebuild the party from the grass roots up, instead of the old days where a few people made all the decisions at the top and pasted talking points to everyone just support it.

this is a new party, we are re-building.

donate today.