A border fence. 370 miles. $1.18 BILLION.

[proud2BlibKansan]

Have I mentioned lately that I think GW is a fucking moron?

I grew up on a farm. I know a good deal about fencing. The number of miles of that shit I've laid is higher than Princess W can count. Did I mention that it was a DIRT FARM, and that we lived in ABJECT POVERTY? Abject poverty = stealing corn from the neighbor's field so we could have BREAKFAST. We had 80 acres of DIRT to keep securely fenced in, and if it had cost more than a couple hundred bucks every year, we'd have been homeless.

Barbed wire fences are pretty good for keeping things in...and out. Of course, my plans don't include 'unmanned drones flying overhead'. Mostly because that's just a little too Star Wars and I laugh every time I read it. Seriously, who can take that SERIOUSLY?

Barbed wire, 60" high, 10 horizontal wires, including labor $5.08/ft.
Fence stays for barbed wire, w/labor $164/ft
Excavate post hole with power auger, $7.41/each. You only need one about every 6 feet, so $1.25/ft.
Set and brace wood or metal fence post, and we'll go for high end here with 18 gauge 1-7/8" metal tube post with cap at $7.72/each, so $1.29/ft

I'm just gonna make up a number...I'm submitting my bid for $2 mil per mile, and with my hefty profit maybe I will be able to buy an island far far away from the US of Bush.

SIDE NOTE: Will everyone that has NOT gotten a job because a Mexican has infiltrated the border with a more amicable salary proposal, please, PLEASE, PlEaSe send me a note?

SIDE NOTE 2: Wasn't the US completely opposed to Isreal erecting a fence along the Gaza strip to keep the Palestinians OUT?

Nationalism:: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.

Need I direct anyone to Mein Kampf.

http://theflossingofamerica.blogspot.com/

[madrchsod]

1. the fence has to be at least 10ft high...

so the posts have to be last least 15 ft. esp in the sand...

[proud2BlibKansan]

5. How high is that fence the 60 second men are building?

[Gregorian]

2. Mister Gorbechev!

They're manufacturing election issues. With a little help from their Fox machine, this could be big.

It's the American way- if you don't first succeed, use more force. But a fence won't keep them out. It's the potential difference that creates the force for them to come. And if the fence doesn't work, make it higher. And when they get on boats, take to the seas. And when they tunnel, bury them. They will come. And the irony of it all is that just when the fortress is complete, the kingdom begins crumbling.

My take on immigration is that it's the borders that are the problem. The fence might keep some of them out, but it won't solve the reason why they want to come. Besides, it's a nonargument. Everyone knows why they're here. The rich like bargains.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Amen

[sandnsea]

3. Right on most, wrong on the job thing

That is just really wrong and I don't know why any Democrat keeps running that line. YES, wages are being driven down by immigrants, illegal or otherwise. My sil has to compete with contractors using illegals, luckily we don't have too many like Arizona yet. My son was a wildland firefighter, yes his wages were a paltry $8.00 an hour because immigrants were hired. It's mostly private companies these days. Did you not hear that mayor in Florida say that anybody who doesn't want to work more than 40 hour week to buy a house needs to get off their lazy, beer-drinking ass? That's because he knows immigrants WILL come in and work 60 hours a week for less than that 40 hour a week worker made. It IS a problem.

That said, it IS NOT an immigration problem, it's a labor exploitation problem and the corporations will continue to turn workers against each other as long as we let them. And when we buy into the immigration hysteria, that's exactly what we do. Not to mention, waste all that money on border security that could go to the health care and education that the same border security idiots don't want to pay. It's not the money, it's the power - particularly white power.

[proud2BlibKansan]

7. Wages are being driven down by the EMPLOYERS, not the workers

Does it just make people feel better to blame the workers?

[sandnsea]

11. "labor exploitation"

I'm not blaming the workers, I am blaming the employers. But it isn't true that citizens aren't losing good paying jobs to immigrants, they are and to ignore that is to ignore how hard it is for lots of folks doing manual labor which translates into Democrats not caring about them. The solution is increase enforcement on employers and fight for a living wage, I agree.

[unlawflcombatnt]

13. Right On

Sandnsea,

You're absolutely right.

And wages ARE being driven down by workers, because the 7.2 million illegal aliens working in the U.S. are increasing our labor force size by that amount. And the supply of anything drives the price downward. And the oversupply of workers provided by illegal immigrant labor drives the wages of American workers down.

Illegal Immigration Suppresses Wages

[sandnsea]

14. NO, i'ts exploitation

Because if you think "supply and demand" can keep our wages up when half the world lives on less than a dollar a day, then you've got a sad think coming. We either fight for living wages for EVERYBODY in the world, or we all become slave labor together. That's what the "ownership" society is all about, the top .01% OWNING the rest of us.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Who hires them?

How do they get here?

[unlawflcombatnt]

44. Employers & Smugglers & Wage Suppression

Employers & Smugglers bring them here. Both make money off illegal labor. Both have much to lose if employers are prosecuted and/or border security is tightened.

The monetary backing for amnesty and "guest" workers comes from big business, Corporate America, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, etc.

Exploitable, low-wage workers increase business profits. The 4% annual suppression of wages caused by immigration decreases the labor costs of those that hire illegal aliens by 4%, and increases their profits accordingly. (See Illegal Immigration Suppresses Wages )

But that 4% wage annual wage suppression also decreases aggregate labor income by 4%, and leaves consumers with 4% less income per year to purchase U.S. production.

Though that wage suppression may increase profits temporarily, it decreases the dollar-size of the U.S. consumer market by the same 4%.

Wage suppression shrinks our economy because goods produced need to be sold to make money and expand the economy. If there's 4% less money to purchase goods, less goods will be produced, less goods will be demanded, and less workers will be necessary to provide the production of those goods. The reduced demand that results will further reduce wages and total employment.

Hiring illegal immigrants is just another tool used by big business and Corporate America to keep American wages down. In so doing, they not only exploit illegal aliens, but American workers as well. When American workers must compete with exploited low-wage workers, they must tolerate the same exploitation and low-wages themselves in order to be "competitive."

Do we really want to maintain "competitiveness" by tolerating the lowest wages and the worst working conditions? Who wins in such "competition"?

[proud2BlibKansan]

15. I just hate seeing the workers demonized

First we destroy their economy with NAFTA, now we blame them for depressing wages in the US.

[sandnsea]

27. I agree 100%

Which is why I think we should admit to the wage decline - except point to the exploitation that is happening and who is doing it. Same as with outsourcing, don't get mad at those foreign people, get mad at our own government for putting in a system that lets corporations get away with exploitation ANYWHERE it happens. That's the only way to protect our own butts in the end, and it's really the only way to raise standards of living around the world so people will stop getting mad at us and flying airplanes into our buildings.

[primative1]

46. Dont Deport the Workers ..

Deport the Politicians who made it so....

[unlawflcombatnt]

47. Employers

No, it does not. It is the employers that are providing the job magnet for the 7.2 million illegal immigrants that are working for them.

Technically, however, it is the workers who are driving wages down. But you're absolutely right on who is to blame.

It is definitely the employers who are the ultimate cause of the problem. We can't blame the workers for taking advantage of the opportunity. But we certainly can blame the employers for providing the opportunity. And it is certainly the employers fault for suppressing wages through illegal means by providing this opportunity.

If it were up to me, the only prosecution or enforcement action would be against employers for hiring illegally. Employers are easier to find, have much more to lose, and are MUCH easier to prosecute. There wouldn't be a problem with "catch-and-release" of employers. It would simply be "catch & go-to-jail" for employers. The deterrent effect of just a few employer prosecutions would be tremendous.

It's important to remember that the biggest benefit of a law, and potential prosecution for its violation, is its deterrent effect. It's difficult to penalize an impoverished illegal immigrant enough to serve as a deterrent. It's still more difficult to do with millions of illegal immigrants.

But it's not difficult to penalize an employer sufficiently to serve as a deterrent. They have much more to lose, and are much more afraid of losing it. Severely prosecute a few employers, and publicize the prosecution, and we wouldn't even have an illegal immigration problem. It would end. And we wouldn't need fences to keep people out because the "magnet" that attracts them would be gone.

Despite all the public rhetoric, I think many are terrified of the prospect of employer prosecution. Many of the guilty are very worried. And that's exactly why employers should "go to the front of the line" for prosecution. Because that fear of prosecution is the very thing that would prevent them from hiring illegal immigrants in the 1st place.

Let's put the fear of God into employers 1st. See if that doesn't resolve the problem.

[blondeatlast]

42. "Labor exploitation problem." Yep, you nailed it. Complicated issue

with an easy, diversionary target.

[bullimiami]

4. what a deal. so i guess some cronies will still be able to make 4 billion

more building the other 1600 miles worth.

[proud2BlibKansan]

8. LOL good point

[unlawflcombatnt]

45. Exactly

And they'll probably suspend the Davis-Bacon act to lower labor costs, as well as hire illegal aliens to do the work. Without Davis-Bacon, contractors can lower the wages enough to truly make any construction jobs into "jobs-no-American-will-do."

I think I'd still rather pick lettuce for John McCain at $50/hour.

Illegal Immigration Suppresses Wages

[951-Riverside]

9. you forgot about the National Guards

...who can't do shit so they will just stand around and faint wearing those hot fatigues.

[proud2BlibKansan]

17. Well I would rather see them wasted in North America

than in Iraq.

[DRoseDARs]

10. For your Side Note#2, not exactly the same thing...

We aren't trying to illegally define a territorial border. Israel's government has been trying to cement its hold over occupied/illegally colonized land since 1967(?) whereas our government is trying (on the surface at least, we all know it's just election year showboating... :eyes: ) to shore up an existing, recognized border.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. I think he is comparing the FENCE, not the border.

[unlawflcombatnt]

12. $1.18 billion vs. $243 billion in wage suppression

If it really is $1.18 billion for that fence, it's a fantastic deal. Wage suppression caused by immigration per year is $1700 per worker. That's 143 million working Americans times $1700 per worker is a total of $243 billion PER YEAR in aggregate lost worker income. That fence sounds like a great deal at $1.18 billion.

See Illegal Immigration Suppresses Wages

[proud2BlibKansan]

19. If you really believe this fence will keep undocumented workers out of the

US, then I can get you a great deal on some ocean front land in Missouri.

[Solon]

21. No you don't...

I bought all that land up, we WILL have an inland SEA again dammit! :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

22. LOL We just might if global warming doesn't stop

[Solon]

24. Tell me about it...

It seemed like we did in '93, when we had some really severe floods. I live on a hilly area, but about a stone throw from the house there was a lake of river water that extended to the horizon. Literally the day before, it was farmland. Talk about a weird experience.

[Solon]

20. First, the actual cost, for the entire border, would be about...

5.5 billion, and that's for just a simple chain link fence, basically something that could be defeated with a wire cutter. Also, let's not mention the cost of maintaining and repairing the fence, which would probably be at least half the total cost per year, so tack on another 2.5 billion to that deal. But, that wouldn't be acceptable anyways, it wouldn't deter one illegal from coming here, so would be useless, so let's be more elaborate, lets add motion sensors, infrared, and a concrete barrier. This could easily increase the cost by a factor of 10 or more, these things are expensive, even our simple drones patrolling the border cost in the millions. Not to mention increasing the maintainence costs exponentially, so, when all is said and done, we end up spending MORE than what it actually cost to have the status quo. Its not a solution, but instead an albatross.

Now, onto other matters, increasing funding for Border Patrol, and other reforms would be MORE effective than building a fence.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. Fair wage legislation and strict enforcement

would accomplish more than a fence and border patrol.

[Solon]

25. Did you see my thread on solving the illegal immigration problem?

Its here, its also rather long and quite extensive, though not complete:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1064574

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. That is excellent

Thanks for the link. Sorry I missed it when it was posted.

[Solon]

29. It happens...

The weird thing is the lack of response from the peanut gallery, I figured they would deride me as an "open borders" advocate. The thing is I'm no such thing. I'm one of those oddballs that refuses to demonize poor people that are being exploited, but at the same time recognizing that that exploitation also leads to wage suppressions, etc. I also oppose amnesty and paths of citizenship for basically the same reason, neither is a long term solution. One involves a "revolving door" policy at the border, the other involves a stop-gap measure at best. The people already here would benefit, but not those who are going to come tomorrow.

I was trying for a middle ground, a way to end the exploitation of workers due to their status, and also a way to create a regulatory body to oversee the enforcement of the rights of workers.

[sandnsea]

28. Is your rear-end sore?

Must be from pulling so much crap out of your ass.

First of all the vast majority of workers are not suffering ANY wage suppression from illegal workers. That's just a joke. Second of all, the wage suppression goes on whether workers come in or jobs go out. Interestingly enough, it's the SAME PEOPLE creating that job dynamid.

Get a friggin' clue. These workers are not your enemy. The corporations who creat the laws that allow them do this shit ARE.

[Psephos]

32. Maybe you could rephrase that a little

Follow the poster's link...he's a physician in California who writes as a layman on economics on his own blog. He's got some cogent arguments, backed by reasonable analysis. Whether or not he's wrong or right, he's not "pulling crap out of his ass." Reasonable people can look at complex issues and arrive at different conclusions.

Fellow DUers deserve basic respect, whether or not you agree with them. Wouldn't you like the same?

Peace.

[sandnsea]

33. I couldn't care less

And I don't care who he is or what his supposed credentials are, he was pulling crap out of his ass.

You don't even pretend to make a depressed wage calculation comparing immigrant wages to ALL wages in the country. It's stupid on its face. And it doesn't deserve any respect.

If/when I post stupid shit like that, I don't deserve it either. And I don't get it.

[Psephos]

34. People here deserve basic respect

unless they forfeit it through deceit or disruption. You have confused the worth of the opinion with the worth of the person.

Using inflammatory language without provocation makes discussion nearly impossible. I used to look past that stuff in silence but no more.

Quick question: does the use of withering invective and insult against fellows with differing opinions seem more at home on a progressive board or a freeper board?

Peace.

[sandnsea]

35. Oh please, get off your high horse

Take it somewhere else. If you don't want to read an off-color jab now and again, put me on ignore. This is mild compared to some of the crap I've read at DU. And "pulling crap out of your ass" is posted by somebody almost every day. Go judge somebody else for a while, somebody over at FreeRepublic because lord knows they need it more than I do.

[Psephos]

39. lol n/t

[Solon]

30. That's nothing, we pay out at least 3 trillion for Corporate America...

The cost from Illegal and legal immigration is just a drop in the bucket compared to that.

http://www.stakeholderalliance.org/corpcost.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. Thank you for saying that

[sam sarrha]

36. another No Bid contract for HaliBillion. ..............!!

[OneBlueSky]

37. is my math right? . . . that's almost $3 million per mile! . . . n/t

.

[bklyncowgirl]

38. Bush is doing his job and doing it well.

His job is to take money from the American taxpayer and pass it along to the people who put him in office. That's it pure and simple

The fence will not keep anyone out and that is not the point. The point is that someone will make alot of money off of this deal while employers will still be able to keep up the supply of bargain rate labor.

Ain't this a great country or what?

[leesa]

40. Exactly. His bogus wars serve the same purpose...money makers for

his friends. Why should he care about illegal immigrants? It's labor he doesn't have to pay for. Halliburton will get the chain link fence contracts and the maintenance will be exhorbitant. Stupid Americans will wonder why it didn't work!!

[electron_blue]

41. Not that this justifies it, but isn't this way cheaper than the Iraq war?

Just trying to show that Bush doesn't care about the $ amount of this - it's a drop in the bucket compared to his pet project.

[solinvictus]

43. $1.18 billion is far cheaper than allowing unchecked immigration..

considering the cost of healthcare, education, suppressed wages, and law enforcement involved with illegals, I'd rather have the fence.