Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Okay let's settle this Lou Dobbs crap once and for all

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:41 AM
Original message
Okay let's settle this Lou Dobbs crap once and for all
Edited on Sat May-27-06 10:42 AM by proud2Blib
As much as I enjoy having conversations with DUers who vigorously defend Mr. Dobbs and think he is doing a good thing with his anti-immigration campaign, when I want the real deal, I trust the Southern Poverty Law Center to give me an accurate assessment of Lou Dobbs and his 'reporting'. The SPLC has a long history of tracking racism in this country. And they have some very inciteful information about Mr. Dobbs. Wake up Lou Dobbs' koolaid drinkers!! Those of us who call him a racist are not just throwing that word around to make waves and start flame wars.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
But there's one thing Lou Dobbs won't do. No matter what others report about the movement, Dobbs has failed to present mounting and persistent evidence of anti-Hispanic racism in anti-immigration groups and citizen border patrols.

It's not that Dobbs hasn't allowed a pro-immigration activist or two to complain about efforts like the Minuteman Project ("vigilantes," according to President Bush), or even that he has made racist statements on his show. What the anchorman has done is repeatedly decline to present the evidence that links these groups to racism, calling the very idea "mind-boggling." On his July 29 show, he called the ACLU and the Southern Poverty Law Center, which he said he liked in other ways, "despicable" and "reprehensible" for saying otherwise.

Consider some of what Dobbs has failed to report, despite the fact that in almost every case these developments were reported widely elsewhere:

# GLENN SPENCER, head of the anti-immigration American Patrol, has been interviewed at least twice on the show, on Jan. 7 and June 4, 2004. Spencer's Web site is jammed with anti-Mexican vitriol and he pushes the idea that the Mexican government is involved in a secret plot to take over the Southwest -- facts never mentioned on Dobbs' show. Spencer's group is regarded as a hate group by both the Southern Poverty Law Center and the Anti-Defamation League. Spencer has spoken at least twice to the white supremacist Council of Conservative Citizens, which has described blacks as "a retrograde species of humanity," and once to American Renaissance, a group that contends that blacks are genetically inferior to whites. Dobbs has never reported those ties, or mentioned Spencer's more wild-eyed contentions, such as his prediction that "thousands will die" in a supposedly forthcoming Mexican invasion. His CNN colleague Wolf Blitzer, on the hand, featured Spencer on his own show but reported Mexico's official response and SPLC's hate group designation.

# In late 2004, it was revealed that the new head of a national advisory board to Protect Arizona Now, an anti-immigration organization, was a long-time white supremacist who was also an editorial adviser to the racist Council of Conservative Citizens. Although VIRGINIA ABERNETHY's controversial selection was reported prominently in virtually every Arizona paper -- and despite the fact that Dobbs heavily covered the anti-immigration referendum that Protect Arizona Now was advocating -- Dobbs never mentioned the affair at all.

# A man named JOE MCCUTCHEN was quoted last April as part of a feature on the Minuteman Project, described by Dobbs as "a terrific group of concerned, caring Americans." No mention was made of the fact that McCutchen, who heads up an anti-immigration group called Protect Arkansas Now, had written a whole series of anti-Semitic letters to the editor and given a speech to the Council of Conservative Citizens -- facts revealed the prior January by SPLC, causing Arkansas' Republican governor to denounce McCutchen's group.

# This August, BILL PARMLEY, a Minuteman leader in Goliad County, Texas, quit the group because of what he described as widespread racism. Similarly, in September, newspapers reported that another Texas Minuteman, Janet Ahrens, had resigned because members "wanted to shoot the taco meat." Dobbs never mentioned either of these people, who were featured prominently elsewhere.

# On Oct. 4, Dobbs had PAUL STREITZ, a co-founder of Connecticut Citizens for Immigration Control, as a guest on his show. Streitz denounced Mayor John DeStefano Jr. for "turning New Haven into a banana republic" by favoring identification cards for undocumented workers. Two days later, newspapers revealed that two of the group's other founders had just quit, saying Streitz had led it in a racially charged direction. Dobbs has never reported this.

# BARBARA COE, leader of the California Coalition for Immigration Reform, was quoted on a show last March bitterly attacking Home Depot for "betray Americans," apparently because Hispanic day laborers often gather in front of the store looking for work. Not mentioned were her group, listed by the SPLC as a hate group, or the fact that she routinely refers to Mexicans as "savages." Coe recently described herself as a member of the Council of Conservative Citizens, a "white pride" group formed from the remnants of the segregationist White Citizens Councils of the 1950s and 1960s that were once described by Thurgood Marshal as "the uptown Klan." She also told The Denver Post in November that she had given a speech to the group.

# CHRIS SIMCOX, co-founder of the Minuteman Project and a top national anti-immigration leader, was arrested in 2003 by federal park rangers for carrying a weapon illegally while tracking border-crossers on federal parkland. While Simcox has been repeatedly interviewed on his show, Dobbs has failed to mention that arrest or bigoted anti-Hispanic comments Simcox made to the Intelligence Report several years ago.

lots more . . .

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=589
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's already being settled
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. It needs a thread to settle it once and for all
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thanks for the link. I missed this one.
"No, Dobbs is just telling the truth" just got another vote from me. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Well it looks like to me, DU has a whole lot of "racist"
Dobbs is a straight shooter (no pun intended), I may not agree with him all the time, but that doesn't mean I'm going to paint him something that he's not. For Shame!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. For shame on what?
For telling the truth? For realizing Lou Dobbs is one sided on this issue?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. The raison d'etre for SPLC is to monitor activities of racist groups
and research the historical backgrounds of everyone they suspect... I hadn't heard of ANY of these people. Had you? While this is rather shocking, Lou Dobbs cannot be expected to be an authority on every person associated with every anti-"undocumented immigrant" group in this country. He is reporting the info that people bring to him... Perhaps someone should send this info to him. It would be interesting to hear his response.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. You really think he doesn't have access to this info?
Journalists are supposed to research facts before they present a story. It can't be that difficult to find these facts. Lou Dobbs has chosen to ignore them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I don't know, and neither do you.
Your assumptions may not be correct. As I said, he READs this stuff to us. He is more of a reporter than a journalist, wouldn't you say?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. He is not alone; he has a staff of people who work for him
Keith O said in a recent interview that he has 20 people on his staff. What do they do? Research and write his scripts.

I would imagine Lou Dobbs also has a staff of research assistants. He has just chosen to present one side of this story. I am quite sure my assumptions are dead on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. Any reporter worth his salary should know where his facts are coming from
Edited on Sat May-27-06 12:28 PM by RagingInMiami
That's Journalism 101
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #26
65. Yeah, check out what happened to Dan Rather.
He couldn't claim it wasn't his job to know his sources.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
20. Mr. Dobbs, Ma'am
Has an obligation to look into people he considers for interview slots on his show, and to familiarize himself with their background. If he does not do this, he is not doing his job properly; if he has done it, and had these people on knowing of the whole of their sentiments on the matter, that is something else....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. I agree, SIR
As I said above, perhaps someone should send this info to him. It would be interesting to hear his response.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lumberjack_jeff Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
58. Must I call the enemy of my enemy my friend?
Said another way, should I reject my own self interest because someone who champions it does so with impure motivations?

I'm not going to defend Dobbs - I think he's generally a jackass. Regarding immigration, especially illegal immigration, there is meaningful, tangible and demonstrable harm to low income workers. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and his views on immigration are correct. The fact that Dobbs background is in money and finance is interesting - his background would suggest a viewpoint slanted toward cheap labor corporatism.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
unlawflcombatnt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
74. 67% agree with Dobbs, 29% agree with you
Yes, it has already been settled, and 67% do NOT think Dobbs is a racist or a xenophobe, and only 29% agree with you. That's what's known as an "overwhelming" majority, and an "overwhelming" majority who do NOT agree with you.

What's really happening is that you're finding out how little support you actually have.

We ARE going to "settle" this. Your fringe minority position is going to "settle" right to the bottom (where it belongs.) You're hatred of the American middle class and American workers is obvious.

Why don't you post your poll again, and see if you can get 75-80% who agree with Dobbs this time?

Illegal Immigration Suppresses Wages

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
2. Good job on pointing out the other side of the story
Fortunately, I don't have cable so I am not privileged to Dobbs' rants. I did like how Dobbs raised hell over the Dubai deal. Got to see those rants on Crooks and Liars.

Of course, now I realize it wasn't so much that he was against Bush selling out a vital piece of our country and its security.

It was the fact that Bush was selling out a vital piece of our country to brown people.

I believe that the people who come out so strongly against ILLEGAL immigration -- to the point of obsession as Dobbs, the leaders of those groups you mentioned and a handful of DUers have done -- all have a tinge of racism within them. Even if they are unable to admit it to themselves or even if they try to justify it by saying the cliched, "I have no problem with LEGAL immigration."

Of course, those immigrants who are are allowed to enter the country LEGALLY tend to be Northern European.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yep they forget that little detail about the color of their skin
Dobbs is just feeding the flames. I no longer have any respect for him. I also suspect he is auditioning for Faux Snooze.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thanks for posting this
I've been really shocked at the willingness of some to overlook what this jackass has been up to for the longest.
His vitriol is nothing short of " new age McCarthyism " w/ the focus on race.
I was a young boy when McCarthy was at the pinnacle of his hate spewing and misdirection crusade, and if he'd had Dobb's platform ( national tv show ) for an hour a day, I don't know where this country would be--if it still existed !

What I really can't figure out is, why does CNN permits him to do what he does. That, to me, is an even bigger issue.

Thanks again for the great post---as per usual. :toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. You are welcome
I am even more shocked at the willingness of DUers to swallow Dobbs' crap, hook, line and sinker.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KingFlorez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
14. My problem with him is he focuses too much on race
And it seems to me he is using the legitimate anti-illegal immigration debate as way to speak his racism and xenophobia.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Yep I think that is it
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. GIVE ONE EXAMPLE of him focusing on RACE
amd please make it SPECIFIC
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KingFlorez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. He's always refering to Mexicans
As if they are the only ones immigrating illegally, with no mention to others that do it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
El Fuego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
44. "MEXICAN" is not a RACE
According to the CIA World Factbook, Mexico is a racially and ethnically diverse country, its main ethnic groups are:

72% Mestizo (mixed white and Indigenous people)
15% European (Spanish, German, Italian, French, Portuguese, British, Swedish, Irish, and white American).
12% Amerindian
2% Afro-Mexicans, Middle Easterners, and East Asians.

Source: Wikipedia

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KingFlorez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. I didn't say it was a race
I should be more clear and say that he directs his anger at Hispanics, instead of saying Mexican.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Has he ever reported on the problem of illegal EUROPEAN immigration?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Or even illegal Asian immigration.
There are many thousands of Cambodians, Laotians, etc smuggled into the country illegally in cargo ships. He never makes a point about that. No, it's the Mexicans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Do any of those other groups have 11-12 MILLION illegal immigrants...
Edited on Sat May-27-06 12:37 PM by LostInAnomie
... in the country? In fact if you combined all the other illegal immigrants per year would it even equal half of the 380-550K that cross the border from Mexico every year?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Compare the immigration policies.
Coming here from Central America is much much more difficult than coming here from France. But I suspect Lou Dobbs hasn't reported that fact.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. Here you go for numbers:
Here's a number on San Francisco: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/18/ASIANS.TMP
180,000 in SF. 1.5 million in total.

Those are not insignificant numbers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. Who and how was the 11-12 million figure determined ?
When Dobbs' got going on this about a year ago, there were supposedly 3-5 million. Now every few months or so the number goes up. Who's doing the estimates ? or is this like most lies...growing as they go ?

As to other immigrants, living in So Calif. I can tell you that there are many many Asian illegals all over the place, and just about everyone knows it, and could give a damn less !

Lou Dobbs is simply a "point man" for the neo racist in this country. :evilfrown:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. There are 1.5 million illegal Asians and there is not a word said about it
I wonder why that is...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. So Lou is a selective racist?
He's against Latinos but not Asians? I guess that makes sense. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. He hasn't gotten around to them yet.
Hispanics are pretty easy targets since they been in the cross hairs in one form or another for an awfully long time.

Have you ever read Howard Zinns', " Peoples History of The United States ? " It might be very helpful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #48
63. That actually does make sense.
It even makes it more clear that it is something that he has against the Mexicans in particular.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
62. ITA - certainly don't hear any of that ---
but no one is making a big deal of it, wonder why?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
987654321 Donating Member (341 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
16. I don't know for sure that he is a racist.
Edited on Sat May-27-06 11:43 AM by 987654321
But I know he is an unethical bastard. The evidence you show is compelling, and it would seem to point in the direction of racism. I also know that all racists aren't easily seen because they have learned to not publicly proclaim their views for fear of repercussions. So you may be right and he may be a racist in sheep's clothing.

I do believe that he is unethical, even derelict in his duties as a news anchorman. He is so one sided, so bent on getting his point of view across that he disregards objectivity and the truth about those he relies on for his "facts" to support his beliefs. I think it is sickening that he legitimizes many anti-immigrant racists by not letting the public know their connections to racist groups. I also can't stand the fact that he has become so self-righteous that he will publicly belittle anyone who doesn't share his view. Sometimes I'd like to shake him and say, "Hey! You know there are a lot of other things going on besides illegal immigration!" It seems it is really the only thing he cares about anymore.

I have no respect for the man and hope that soon he jumps ship and runs to FOX, where it seems he belongs.

Thanks for your work putting this all together. I'm going to look it over some more and share it with some of people I know who are Lou Dobbs supporters here in Arizona.

(edited because I'm OC)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. He is feeding the flames of racism
so it doesn't really matter what his personal views are. His reports are one-sided. I think my research has proven that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #18
42. LOL!! What research did you do?
You just cut and pasted that which retread linked to here, then started your own thread with it! You crack me up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2645989

retread - post 66. The guy gives me the creeps. See link below:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?...

proud2Blib Sat May-27-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #66
76. Oh that needs to be cut and pasted here!
Allow me>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #42
66. And that is somehow wrong or dishonest?
Talk about crackin up. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. It is a joke
"I think my research has proven that" WTF research did YOU do?

Self-aggrandizing you are.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. I have done lots of research
I even started a thread detailing my research here a month ago.

That search feature sure comes in handy. That's how you do RESEARCH right here on DU. Sometimes it is wise to check stuff out before you post. :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
El Fuego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
50. You just see everything in terms of race.
"To a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

Race has nothing to do with it. If millions and millions of Russians were coming over the Bering Strait and settling in the Pacific northwest, you can bet Lou Dobbs would be doing the exact same kind of stories.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #50
67. Then why isn't he obsessing over the illegal Irish in Boston?
Or did I miss that report?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
El Fuego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #67
76. Numbers: 40,000 Irish vs. 7 million Mexican
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
25. I've never met a person that obsessed about illegal immigration who wasn't
a flaming racist. Granted, I've lived in Waukesha County, the home of Jim Sensenbrenner, for most of my life. However, I'll tell you in Madison, where race is almost never an issue, the topic never even comes up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Illegal immigration isn't an issue in Madtown?
Don't bet on it. Do you read the letters and sound-offs in the Capital Times (which is the liberal paper) regarding this subject? You might be surprised. They are overwhelmingly against the situation as it stands. And the issue of RACE has nothing to do with the points made in these letters.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. The only ones who care about illegal immigration are the ones pissed
Edited on Sat May-27-06 12:50 PM by Zynx
off about it. People like me don't care enough to write a letter.

Besides, those who yell and scream about immigration never come right out and say "I hate Mexicans", but it's right there below the surface.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. THAT is BS
And your accusations of racism or xenophobia are unacceptable. People like you don't care enough to write a letter but you care enough to post insults and bigoted comments here on DU...Bet you don't read the newspaper either, or you would have seen the letters and sound-offs I am talking about.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. I don't particularly care about what a bunch of angry bigots have to say.
I see it all the time on TV and read it in other papers other than the Capital Times whether it is the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal or the Waukesha Freeman. I know first hand that the xenophobia in Waukesha county is the primary driver of the anti-immigrant push.

This is no different than the people who were screaming left and right back in the 19th century about even the legal immigrants from Ireland and Italy coming and "taking our jobs". It was either racism or anti-Catholic schlock then and it is the same now. The history of the debates over immigration paint a clear picture on this issue. People are viscerally upset because they feel uncomfortable about people who speak a funny language or have strange customs. What do you think all the immigration debates in Western Europe are about right now? It isn't because they are there illegally. It is because people are racist towards the millions of Turks and Arabs that have immigrated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. So it is impossible to be angry about people...
... taking jobs away from working class Americans without being a racist? It's impossible to be angry about the race to the bottom in workers wages because greedy capitalists can employ illegal immigrants at lower wages without being a racist?

Bullshit!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #47
64. Those were convenient excuses for racism in the past when immigrants
Edited on Sun May-28-06 09:27 AM by Zynx
came into this country. Italians, Poles, and *gasp* Chinese(a country that Lou Dobbs likes to depict as some kind of new "red menace") are prime examples.

EDIT: Let me make one thing clear. I do want a sensible immigration policy that severely curtails the just open flow of people over our southern border. The reason for me is the drug trade that destroys our cities. However, I don't think we should just throw all of the illegals over the border. I'm in favor of tremendously loosening our immigration procedures so that we don't have such stringent quotas and so people can come into this country legally in much larger numbers than they do now. Illegal flows over the border must be curtailed, no one truly argues with that.

However, the insistence that they "learn English and assimilate into our society" is a bunch of racist bullshit. My great grandparents who came over from Poland never learned English and neither did tens of millions of other first generation immigrants. As far as the arguments that they are destroying our jobs and culture, what a bunch of crap.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #41
73. Please stop playing the race card, it won't work! And
it is a lie. Why don't you want to help all the people of Mexico? Why can't we help them help themselves? We need to put our energy into helping them do away with NAFTA & corruption by their own government. You are merely race baiting with those kind of comments.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
27. Do you really think that if someone would...
... take a very close look at all of Dobb's pro-illegal immigrant guests they wouldn't be able to find something inflammatory?

This incessant cry of racism does nothing but stifle debate.

Why not try to debate him on the facts instead of straining to place a "racist" label on him to discredit him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. He isn't presenting a balanced view
What would be his reason for that bias? If it isn't racism, then come up with a better reason.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #31
45. Maybe for the fact that there are 11-12 million of them here...
... and hundreds of thousands of them coming every year. By doing so these ILLEGAL immigrants are taking jobs that could go to working class Americans. They are driving down wages in a race to the bottom.

Maybe he is pissed because our government isn't doing ANYTHING to put a halt to these ILLEGAL immigrants being ILLEGALLY hired by greedy capitalists. By doing this they are undercutting the middle class.

There are dozens of reason for being against illegal immigration, but I guess instead of rationally trying to argue against them it is just easier to cry racism and hope people are too scared of the label to continue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Only slightly over HALF of that 12 million is from Mexico.
So why no talk about the other six?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #52
60. Probably because the majority of the other 6 million...
... come across the Mexican border.

Mexican illegal immigrants account for 69% of the illegal immigrants in the US. The top fifteen countries of origin account for 89% of the total illegal immigration into the US. Discounting the countries where the immigrants would have to cross water (China, India, Korea, Haiti, etc.) you have approx. 85% of our illegal immigrants crossing at the Mexican border.

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/shared/aboutus/statistics/Ill_Report_1211.pdf

These are 2000 stats. More than likely the numbers have only increased.

So why wouldn't he focus on where the great majority of illegal immigrants are coming from?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. It is important to understand motivations.
Do you think Pat Buchanan is such a nut on the issue just because they are law breakers? Hell no. The guy is a flaming, racist dirt bag.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
35. Your first mistake...
was starting the thread with an un-truth. "As much as I enjoy having conversations with DUers who vigorously defend Mr. Dobbs and think he is doing a good thing with his anti-immigration campaign"... Lou Dobbs, as myself, is not anti-immigration. We both believe that if you go through the legal process as put forth according to the laws of the United States, anyone of any race, creed, or religion is more than welcome. What's wrong with that? Your argument in a nutshell is nothing more than a call for all Americans to ignore the letter of the law, and do nothing to change it except to cry "racist", as if those laws were put into place six months ago by a rogue regime. Well, hate to disappoint you, but out of all the laws the mis-administration has circumvented, or twisted to fit their agenda, the immigration laws are not among them. Your argument doesn't hold water, unless it's plugged by over-emotional reaction that drowns out any semblence of a logical discussion. Just my 02, and probably my last on this subject. Spinning wheels. Thanks.
quickesst
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Tell it to the Native Americans pal......
:evilfrown:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
46. What .....
have you done for them lately, "pal".? I would venture a wager that your's and more than a few people's concern for the indians in this country were not even an unconscious thought for you until it became the only analogy, and a poor one at that, to compare to the present illegal immigration problem. You want open borders? All you are doing is inviting chaos to an already chaotic situation. Lou Dobbs is exactly right when he says you cannot reform immigration if you do not have control of your borders. That's logical. Unfortunately, those who scream "racist" willy-nilly, should understand that repeating something without real meaning, ie, "9/11", does not make it true, nor does it lend credibility to your argument when it is clearly not true. And it also becomes, as I'm sure you know, very tiresome. Believe me when I say, the one sure way for the Democrats to blow their golden opportunity for November, is to embrace BushCo's policy, or any facsimile thereof. If you haven't looked lately, anti-Dobbers, outside of DU, are in the clear minority, dem or repug. Thanks. OK, that's really my last word.
quickesst
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. Actually...
Edited on Sat May-27-06 07:03 PM by jaysunb
They are my main clients ( National Tribal Political Council).

Since my ancestors came here in the bottom of slave ships, I suppose you're right in discounting any opinion I may have on " illegal " immigration....

Not wishing to start a fight, I'll close this conversation by asking that you get more information on the impact of those you feel are here illegally. ( truthful ? ) You may be surprised how you've arrived at your conclusions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
38. Settle it once and for all? Only if you think it's going your way. If not,
then we'll have to have another thread with you calling people racist and other names and telling them what terrible people they are for thinking that enough is enough and illegal is exactly what it means, not here by legitimate means.

And to head you off at the pass, I am including anyone of any nationality that comes into the country illegally. I think that the reason Hispanics are given the most attention in this issue is because they are the biggest (by far) group of illegals in this country.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Minnesota Libra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
40. The ONLY reason Lou Dobbs is viewed as racist is because............
......the majority of illegal aliens are indeed Mexican. Lou Dobbs truly wants ALL illegal aliens stopped before they cross the border. He also tells the truth about illegal aliens - coming into the US illegally from any and all countries - being a horrible drain on medical, educational, and social services. It's SIMPLY NOT RIGHT when legal residents of this country have to pay for their own services and yet illegal aliens take advantage of all the free services at taxpayers expense. Could it be that illegal aliens themselves are the most outspoken against legal immigration by one and all???

Let the flames begin.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberaliraqvet26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #40
49. not to mention the numerous labor issues....
Amen, im glad im not the only one here who wants to see a rational immigration policy. It is not RACIST to protect our own labor and social interests.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. Amen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
quiller4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #49
61. Protecting labor interests is not racist
Caesar Chavez was a strong opponent of illegal immigration
because he saw that having a pool of workers who could be
intimidated into accepting substandard wages forced wages down
for all workers in the area.

The union construction workers throughout the Southwest are
finding that they must move north to earn a living wage. 

I am not advocating deportation. I think the legislation that
the Republican House passed is evil. Still, I believe that
Dobbs is correct when he describes the impact massive
immigration has on wages and workers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #61
68. Caesar Chavez' granddaughter has said she is sure he would be on the
front lines with the immigration rights groups today. The immigration laws were very different when Caesar made his statement on illegal immigration. It was much easier to immigrate legally from Central America then. This was also before NAFTA and CAFTA. The law and the times have changed dramatically since then.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. But he uses dubious studies and even misquotes them.
Check out Media Matters. They have a good deal to say about it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
57. Let me get this straight..
... because Dobbs doesn't include everything you want in his reporting, things that are basically unlike most of his programming, that makes him a racist?

I'll tell you what, you've settled something all right but not what you set out to settle.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #57
69. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #59
70. Excuse me?
I don't think so. Where I come from actions speak louder than words and I have a lifetime of actions and advocacy for equal rights that clearly demonstrates I am NOT a racist.

Now tell us, what have you done to eliminate racism and bigotry in your neck of the woods?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
union_maid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
75. It's a difficult issue
Edited on Sun May-28-06 09:54 PM by union_maid
It's possible that Lou Dobbs is so vigorously defended because he's been a very important voice in bringing a variety of issues to public attention. Until recently the show included a lot about outsourcing and the race to the bottom and he was doing it before it was being talked about much elsewhere in the MSM. He's also talked a lot about the way the middle class is being squeezed, the deficit, our debt and, of course, recently there was the Dubai ports issue.

That said, he comes across to me as kind of nuts on the illegal immigration thing. And he's definitly insensitive to the racial overtones of what he'd doing. I'm not minimizing the problem of immigration. I actually don't have a sense of the problem. Although there are plenty of undocumented immigrants around here, it's not a border state and I don't think we feel the impact as much, except in the localities where shape up lots are located and such. Those localities tend to be apoplectic. We're getting more Hispanic all around here all the time, but a lot of it is legal immigration in the more traditional mode - with families moving here together and intending to stay permanently.

While immigration doesn't affect me directly much I'm concerned about the depression of wages in those industries which did used to be middle class, like construction. Anyone who's been squeezed out of that has to be fairly bitter - not necessarily toward the workers, but certainly bitter about the situation.

I think it's perfectly possible for Lou Dobbs or anyone else, for that matter, to be worth listening to, but that doesn't mean that you take everything he says as gospel. Took me a long time to figure out what I thought about the immigration problem, especially since it wasn't bothering me any before that. It's been informed by Lou Dobbs to an extent, but I haven't come out agreeing with him for the most part. I would like to see him called on the racism of some of his sources of information. Most of all, though, I'd like to see him get this out of his system so we could go back to having discussions on the more general disatrous effects of the unregulated free market and tax cuts for the rich.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC