Is it me, or do Dems seem to re-fight he same political war?

[HardWorkingDem]

With Kerry releasing new information about the Swiftboat Liars, it seems that Dems keep fighting the same political campaign battles over and over instead of adapting.

For example, will everyone agree that one of the worst photo ops in Political Campaigns 101 was Dukakis taking a tank ride? And after this, what did Kerry do? He let nasty photographs of him be taken of him while in a blue suit at NASA and a bizarre wetsuit while surfboarding.

I'm not trying to dump on Kerry, but what is it about Dems that they keep making the same mistakes over and over again?

I mean, look at Pelosi and the Jefferson garbage. Why did she even open her mouth? The American voter is sick and tired of politicians being above the American people. Why couldn't she let the Rethuglicans self destruct on this one?

What I want to see, as do many Americans, is for a Democrat to stand up and declare he/she is angry as hell and stand for something. This to me is one of our biggest weaknesses.

I want to see a Democrat stand up and PLEDGE to the American people that he/she will get Bin Laden and Zarqawi and then do it.

[mrcheerful]

1. This is why they can't leave sleeping dogs alone

they have a bad habit of waking up and coming back at them. Thats what pukes have been doing since Nixons days. Remember americans were whinning about negative ads? Seems they only whine about Dem's that use attack ads, pukes are seen as saints, god knows how that came about. Pelosi had to make a comment on Jefferson, watch the spin on everyone that remained quit on him, the pukes will spin it so nothing said = trying to give secret aid to Jefferson, so see Dem's are ok with corruption just so long as its a Dem and not one of the honest truthful pukes on the take.

[reformedrepub]

3. I dont think the Dems can

do anything about it. The repubs use the same hot button issues every election cycle to stir up the base, and the Dems keep fighting amongst themselves over different issues. The only difference this time is Iraq. Iraq may come back to bite the pubs in the ass, this war is unpoplular on the right as well as the left.

[AndyTiedye]

2. Howard Dean Tried That. Look What They Did To Him.

What I want to see, as do many Americans, is for a Democrat to stand up and declare he/she is angry as hell and stand for something.

Howard Dean tried that. They reprocessed it, fed it back around, and used it to utterly destroy his candidacy.

[HardWorkingDem]

4. I love Howard, but.......

he made the simple mistakes they were waiting for him to make. I guess you could call Howard a politial "not ready for prime time" player.

Which is really odd because the media did to him the same thing it did to Gore in 2000: it mischaracterized his past and his statements.

But to back my OP - if this happened to the Rethugs, they would be reminding the press what they did 24/7. And somehow, would make it stick.

[AndyTiedye]

5. And they Did The Same Thing to Kerry

if this happened to the Rethugs, they would be reminding the press what they did 24/7. And somehow, would make it stick.

They "make it stick" because they control the media.

[Lefty48197]

18. Again, the media told America that Dean was nuts...

...and a lot of people fell for it. Why don't we start demanding that the voting public start paying more attention? You only get fooled twice if you let yourself be fooled again...

[TexasProgresive]

20. Demand the voting public pay attetion??!!

And just how do you propose to do that? Maybe at the point of a gun, hunh? That's what the pukes do with their wedge issues. They grab the attention of the public away from what is really important. I figured out in the 80's that they never really want abortion to be outlawed because they would lose their biggest button.

The other thing they do is the same as what "they" did in Ireland for centuries, they keep us fighting amoungst ourselves so that we disapate all of our energy over nothing. One thing is important and that is winning and throwing these bums out of office and into prison if possible. Then we can do a little nitpicking with ourselves as long as it is constructive and not destructive. We need to learn how to choose our battles and fight them well.

[Lefty48197]

26. What in the hell made you think of guns pointing at people?

?????????

[TexasProgresive]

28. I guess you can't read sarcasm in a response to your post

You said that we should demand the voting public pay attention- so how do you intend to do that? What's your methodology for forcing them to pay attention? Other then threat of death (that usually gets someones attention) maybe we should run our campaigns like a reality show - you know - elect the American Idol - a second rate singer should be as good as most candidates we field from any party.

(In case you missed it this whole post is dripping with:sarcasm: )

[Lefty48197]

39. I didn't miss anything.

It's just that when the issue of guns comes up, I always seem to hear some really bizarre things. Makes me wonder...

[TexasProgresive]

41. So are you ever gonna give up you method of

making voters pay attention?

[sandnsea]

6. A PLEDGE to get Bin Laden??

Why were you paying more attention to pictures instead of Kerry's pledge to get Bin Laden if that's what you're big concern is???

The only mistake is Dems letting Pubs tell them this picture is okay and this one is not. If they didn't tell you, you wouldn't even know those pictures existed.

[snowbear]

7. ...."[i]Is it me, or do Dems seem to re-fight he same political war"?[/i]

It's just YOU.

[HardWorkingDem]

9. then why do we keep making the same mistakes over and over again?

I'm confused......

if a Dem had said, "I've never met you before tonight" (Cheney to Edwards), the Rethugs would have had the commercial out the next day saying how the Dem was a pure liar.

My point is, that Dems seem to try and avoid the visceral war of politics instead of seeing what it is all about.

[sandnsea]

11. Because YOU keep listening to them. DUH n/t

[HardWorkingDem]

23. Singing to the choir not needed...

I know how I vote, but I'm not among those who need to be persuaded to vote for a Democrat. Those who need to be persuaded are the ones that look at a goofy looking Dukakis in a tank or an "elitist" Kerry on a windsurfing board and then go, "Jesus, how could I ever vote for this guy?!?!"

And evidently with both houses of Congress, the presidency, the courts in rethuglican control, I'm not the only other person who has noticed this, gladly, I can say I never voted for any of it and it seems to be catching up with them.

[sandnsea]

30. Because you help perpetuate the lie

Kerry is much less of an elitist than George Bush. So you tell me, why are you harping on the mistake of running Kerry when the real elitist won???

I learned to windsurf in Montana. Outdoor sports is not elitist in the west.

You bought into their lies. Wake up. You're a tool.

[HardWorkingDem]

31. Don't be condescending.....

Like I said, you are singing to the choir and if I am not making a valid observation, then why is Kerry still in the Senate and Bush is in the Whitehouse.

As I stated in the original thread - our democratic candidates keep making the same idiotic mistakes over and over again and they need to be examined, digested and studied so we quit making them over and over again. It's like for the most of them, they seem to fight the present political battle just like the most recent one.

And to further illustrate this, look at how the Dems in Washington repeatedly keep giving Rethuglicans cover instead of letting them stew in the pot they have made (Pelosi covering for Hastert over the searching of the congressional office, Lieberman constantly giving Bush support and on and on).

One other thing....I work in a large organization where the members are predominately republican, so it is like a fox being in the hen house. Repeatedly, during the 2004 elections, I heard the same things over and over again about Kerry: he's a rich snob, elitist, flip flops, et cetera. And guess what was said about GWB: every day man, down to earth, firm and resolute, et cetera.

Certainly to those of us here at DU these are wrong observations, but these things are also seen by those who are not in our choir.

[politicasista]

32. Ask Diebold n/t

[sandnsea]

33. The media smears candidates

That isn't an idiotic mistake by a campaign. It's PEOPLE letting the media get away with it by helping them to repeat their lies. You've repeated almost all of them in this one thread. I don't know why people choose to believe complete lies about Democrats. I don't know why you repeat the lies, but make no mistake, YOU are the one engaged in campaign idiocy when you repeat complete bullshit, not the Democratic party. That isn't condescending, it's just the fact of the matter. It seems to me the majority of white males in this country are so afraid of being known as part of the emasculated Democrats that they just join in with the right wing bullying, or maybe they really are more comfortable being bullies. And maybe white women really do prefer these jerks because they sure seem to be lining up behind them lately.

You will never catch me spreading lies about Democratic candidates. I'll fight to the death to defend any of them, even ones I don't agree with. When ALL Democrats do that, then you won't have any "idiotic mistakes" to talk about because they will have been knocked down before they ever got a chance to take hold.

[HardWorkingDem]

34. How are these observations "lies"?

How is it a lie to point out that Michael Dukakis should not have got in a tank and look like Snoopy?

How is it a lie pointing out that while many American people were all ready concerned about Kerry being elitist, he gets on a windsurfing board that middle America sees as snooty and elitist (and I can't recall what it was that was going on at the time, but there was something going on where Kerry should have went).

Then, what is one major perception about Democrats? It's that we don't stand for anything. So, you tell me, how is it bullshit, a lie, or whatever, when Michael Dukakis is asked during a debate what he would want done to a man who raped and murdered his wife? Do you remember what his reply was? Instead of saying something like, "Even though I am against the death penalty, if some asshole did that to my wife, I'd want to tear his throat out with my bare hands." But what did he do? He gave some idiotic answer that immediately made voters go, "WHAT?!?".

And tell me this, O Wise One, how the hell are we supposed to get any better if we don't study our methods and change them when they keep messing us up? Or are we supposed to just accept giving the other side ammunition to use against us?

And tell me how we are to awaken the brain dead people out there who believe this crap? As I said, quit preaching to the choir - Democrats don't have to worry about my vote - it's those others out there.


And you were being condescending when calling me a "tool"....I would match my political tools of deciphering bullshit against yours any day. What I get sick and tired of is people crying about the media, when we all know what the media is about and we keep getting played like amateurs.

These campaigns are like train wrecks - the gore or unusual catches the eye of the media and voter, so why give them freebies all the time when we don't have to?

[sandnsea]

35. There's nothing wrong with any of that

Michael Dukakis is another one who was actually in the military and I think he actually had some sort of tank duty. Why don't the men in our party have the balls to stand up for those who served??

And why do you make such a big deal over that picture when Bush was ridiculed mercilessly over his cod piece and "mission accomplished". Did you hear any of your Bush-lovin' buddies fretting over that? Well hell no, because they don't quiver in their boots every time a shot is fired. They just stay on the attack, and that's what our grassroots never does. By the way, what's the Snoopy reference, funny I only see that on right wing sites.

And once agan, I learned to windsurf in Montana. How elitist is that?? Who told you outdoor sports were elitist? Where do you live? Do you never walk out the front door?

It's impossible that any candidate is going to go 6 months without a glitch. They exploit those glitches and we help them. It's as simple as that.

[HardWorkingDem]

36. Examination is not "quivering"......

Maybe if the Dems would be honest about their campaigns when examining them, they would see they make the same mistakes over and over again. That is what I'm trying to get through here - mistakes that don't have to be repeated.

Take Kerry again. Be honest - from the very start, what was probably the number one perception issue to persuadable voters of Kerry? Yes, it was he was another Mass liberal elitist. For those of us on the Dem side, it doesn't really matter. So what does he do? He allows himself to be photographed participating in events that only reinforce those perceptions to the voters who are being asked to vote for him. And it didn't help that he wore some freaky looking wet suit. In today's visual world of political campaigns, imagery can be almost everything.

I guess the best way to describe it is that Dems seem to have this "self fulfilling prophecy" when it comes to major campaigns and we still are having an issue with understanding the power of the electronic media as the Rethugs do.

For Bush's "mission accomplished" photo op - as soon as I saw that, not only did I know what it was about, but thought, "We are going to see this a thousand times in the fall." Well, we sort of did, but in a different context because things didn't go as the rethugs planned. Still though, the Dems did not exploit that ad as much as I thought they should have.

Yes, they make mistakes as well, but they seem to be more skilled at avoiding the ones that harm them as much as the Dem ones. (Take GWB falling off the Segway - no one really cared because he all ready was thought of as being a drunken klutz. In a way there is a difference. One of the most harmful mistakes a Bush did was when GHB looked at his watch in a debate with Clinton.)

And where did I say outdoor sports were elitist? I've only been talking of one incident.

Sadly, for Dukakis being seen as Snoopy in the tank, it seems you are being a bit disingenuous here, because if you go back to that campaign, it was widely commented by both those on the left and right, that he did look like Snoopy.

[sandnsea]

45. You answered your own question

GWB falling off the Segway - no one really cared. Wrong. Republicans didn't care and ignored it. With only Democrats caring, the story died.

Kerry windsurfing photo. I'm telling you windsurfing is not elitist, not in the west. The only reason anyone cared, is because city Democrats have no idea what is popular in the outdoors and were immediately intimidated into believing there was something elitist about windsurfing. Just like skiing, nobody in the west thinks skiing is elitist, almost everybody skis. But somehow or other, it was turned into an elitist sport. Just the other day I saw a slam on Kerry about wearing a flight jacket, that he somehow didn't know that wasn't Navy garb. As if they don't fly in the Navy, but anyway, the guy didn't even know Kerry flies.

So you tell me, how in the hell does a war veteran with medals; who flies all kinds of planes and helicopters, is a marksman, skis, snowboards, windsurfs, plays hockey at 60, rides bicycle marathons; how does he get labeled a wussy elitist?

Democrats like you helping, that's how. Republicans can't do it on their own, just like we couldn't make hay about the Segway incident on our own. Just like dragging out "Snoopy" helps them continue to label Democrats in the future.

[HardWorkingDem]

47. As I have continually tried to get across....

for those who were going to vote for Kerry, it really does not matter what we at DU think about a Kerry and his windsurfing. The people it does matter to are those that are making their minds up.

What West are you talking about? California? And I suggest maybe you take a trip to middle America, the South or people not living around where windsurfing is possible and ask them what they feel about windsurfing. Whether you agree or not, windsurfing is seen by many as a luxury, like that of sailboating.

As for this comment:

"Democrats like you helping, that's how. Republicans can't do it on their own, just like we couldn't make hay about the Segway incident on our own. Just like dragging out "Snoopy" helps them continue to label Democrats in the future."

Go ahead and keep burying your head in the sand and ignoring these issues and we'll keep losing. My belief is we need to examine ALL aspects of our political campaigns and messages and work like hell to figure out the ones that work and the ones that don't. For example, there is some excellent work going on in neuroscience right now that is suggesting conservatives and liberals physically think differently. These are things we have to be more receptive about.

Campaigns are like boxing - after you keep getting hit in the face you learn to duck a bit so you can continue to throw punches.

Oh, and when did I EVER make a reference to Kerry actually being more of a wussy elitist than that of Bush? Please don't put words in my mouth. Sadly though, the American people bought into the Bush mystique bullshit. I certainly know the difference and if I knew the way to prevent that, I'd be the next James Carville.

[sandnsea]

48. There you go again

Presuming that because I keep telling you windsurfing is not elitist in the west, that I must be from California. Why do you keep ignoring the part where I told you I learned to windsurf in MONTANA. Anybody can windsurf anywhere, or sail a boat, or ski, or ride a bike, or toss a football. Isn't it funny that they didn't try to turn flying a helicopter into an elitist activity, despite the fact that that actually is. Hmmm, people might notice that there are pictures of John Kerry at the actual controls, unlike George Bush. That one was left alone.

It's just like the Harry Reid boxing seats, Democrats get attacked and everybody, including the grassroots, panics and goes into defense mode.

It's no surprise to me why they bought into the Bushit, our people were too busy thinking they had to defend John Kerry instead of staying focused on Bush. The surrogates smear, the candidate presses forward with the agenda. That's the way it's supposed to work.

[HardWorkingDem]

51. It might not be, but many "perceive" it to be.....

and perceptions are the hard thing that are hard to defeat......and something we have to work on.

For an example, take a look at the recent Gore coverage. People keep remarking that they want to know where "this" Gore was during the 2000 election, when oddly, people close to Gore have always remarked about his wonderful personality that all ready existed.

[karynnj]

55. It was the Republican Convention

The tradition for Democrats is to keep a low profile. Kerry spent the day windsurfing fro a few hours (with some press following) and preparing for the first debate the rest of the day.

I am not athletic - I thought almost nothing about the short glimpse of Kerry windsurfing. (By the way the Bush campaign ad used a photo from a previous year of Kerry windsurfing - because he was dressed differently in the 2004 picture. Even if Kerry didn't winsurf the photo from years before would have been used.) About the only thing I thought was that the sea was gorgeous and Kerry was athletic - to which I assigned neither a negative or positive value.

I suspect that golfing (which Bush does) is more expensive and it certainly more elitist with country clubs. Reagan's horse's maintenance likely made that activity more expensive. Now if Kerry played polo ...

[mrcheerful]

12. They got burned badly in 68 and 80 for trying to run truthful ads that the

sheeple said were attacks on decent honest up right pukes. The sheeple do a lot of looking with blinders on and to be honest all we can do is let them get burned enough to where they get fed up watching their incomes fall. Its not the wedge issues that cause these idiots to vote, bottom line its how much they have to spend on jet ski's, SUV's and other expensive toys. They are slowly seeing that they didn't get the big tax breaks the pukes said they would get plus they are losing jobs left and right, which has them looking at who's behind all of their woes. Wedge issues like abortion gay marriage and that sort of thing take a back seat with sheeple when they can't afford new toys or the cost to run the toys. Remember even after they saw the wreckage of Reagans rule, they still worship the ground he walked on. All the bad stuff happened when daddy shrub took office.

[HardWorkingDem]

8. No, what bothers me is....

when the Repugs can paint us in a corner because we are too afraid to criticize them for not getting this man. Let's face it - the main reason the Dems would not hit Bush on not catching a man behind the killing of 3000 Americans is that we were worried it would have been an October Surprise.

The Dems should get off their asses and say, if elected, bin Laden and Zarqawi will be no more.

[sandnsea]

10. How did you miss it?

Maybe because you were so obsessed with their sandbox games?? I can't figure it out, because I didn't miss it.

[LiberalVoice]

13. Dems fight?

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

15. Yeah I know

All it takes is a picture for the knees to start quivering on the legs of the fighting grassroots. :eyes: right the fuck back at ya'.

[Minnesota Libra]

14. The mistake so many Democrats/Liberals make is to ask....................

.....why this or why that INSTEAD OF ASKING :patriot: WHY DON'T I do such and such? :patriot: Try that question on for size.

[izzie]

16. This is standard. Just think they are still hiding papers from this

Sp/Am war. Would not want that to get out as it may hurt some one in power.

[Lefty48197]

17. The right wing news media spun the "tank drive" story.

Many Americans, including you, seem to have fallen for it. None of them ever mentioned that when Dukakis drove the tank past the press corp, he turned the tank turret towards the reporters. If Ronald Reagan had done the same thing, the right wing press would have heralded it as the funniest thing in the history of man-kind.

[NCarolinawoman]

21. And the media piled on with "windsurfing is BAD"; "cutting brush is GOOD".

Why in the world didn't the press ever wonder out loud why Bush-the-Cowboy, was never seen riding a horse? If the press had revealed Bush's fear of horses then some of the politically naive redstaters might have caught on to the fact that the man was a phony, and could never keep us safe. That IS the reason why so many people ultimately voted for the guy.

:grr:

[HardWorkingDem]

22. What you are over looking....

is that we are the Dem choir - we don't need to be persuaded or sang to - it is the other voters who we are trying to win over and Dems keep blowing it by making the same mistakes over and over again.

For example, the dreaded Kerry defense bill remark about voting for it before voting against it. Is there ANY DUer that did not moan when they heard that because they knew what would be coming next? I know I did and I'm not a huge political operative but knew this was big because that is how politics is fought in the media age.

My point in all of this is that Democratic candidates seem to make these blunders over and over again.

Back to the Kerry wind surfing suit - again, as soon as I saw that clip I knew it meant trouble for what it screamed at middle America. Heck, after the election, in both Time and Newsweek's special election coverage they both wrote how Bush's people fell out of their chairs over the good fortune after the Kerry statement.

I have not "fallen" for any of this crap. It just makes me frustrated that Dems seem to do this over and over again.

And it doesn't matter who spins what.

[Debs]

19. They are forced to

Republicans never give up trying to rewrite history and never let a anything useful for propaganda die. It doesn't matter how thoroughly it is debunked they will lie, then when caught, wait a while then tell the lie again. There seems to be no way to drive a stake through the heart of their lies. I STILL hear rightwingnuts telling me we FOUND WMDs in Iraq. Kerry WILL hear the swifboat liars for rent retell their lies though they were thoroughly debunked at the time. They will NOT give up. They will still say he lied in Congress, they will still say the Winter Soldier hearing were liars and fake soldiers, they wont stop, they never stop, they are like the energizer bunny of LIES.

[janx]

24. That is about to change, IMO.

If the 50-state strategy works, we'll see a lot of interesting, competent, and forthcoming candidates take some seats.

The winds of change, as they say, are upon us. ;-)

[Scoody Boo]

25. There are some issues that should not be revisited...

around election time, but the Democratic party has such a varied base that they have to address them to appeal to their own and alienate some in the middle or even moderate Republicans.

[Cascadian]

27. The same tactics, the same results.

The Democratic leadership in the decade are using the same "me too." tactics and still getting the same stupid results. Don't even try to correct me with the fact that Bill Clinton won. Bill Clinton had something that Senior Bush did not have. Charm and charisma. That was the real reason he won in 1992. Clinton also won in 1996 because if the same thing plus the economy was doing better. However, that does not give the Democrats an excuse for the elections in 1994, 2000, 2002, and 2004. We have been the using some pretty weak tactics as well as pretty weak candidates coupled with this attitude that Democrats MUST act like Republicans. The same old tactics, same results. When are we ever going to learn? I will continue to use the old Harry Truman quote to drive the point home. In fact, I have adopted it as my signature line. I do hope that this year will be a turning point for the Democratic Party. The rebirth of progressivism in a new bold package to appeal to the masses.


John

[beachmom]

29. Check out this thread to provide an answer, at least about the SBVT

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2652148

In summary, the reason why Kerry is revisiting this is because it's still going on. O'Neill is now going after Murtha!! There are a lot of Iraq vets who are running for office for which this s*** will come up. It's a preemptive attack, and it's smart with the timing (on the eve of the '06 campaign) and its main goal to discredit the SBVT and their associates who are going to go after Fighting Dems everywhere. They need to be neutralized, and Kerry is leading the fight.

[Supersedeas]

37. How about standing against corruption no matter WHO is committing it

[karynnj]

56. Ever hear of BCCI

One Senator was willing to continue even when those implicated were money men and big shots in his OWN party. The same senator who wrote the Clean Elections bill hoping to push more people into accepting it. He also ran 4 Senate campaigns without accepting PAC money. JOHN KERRY

[blm]

38. So. a Democrat pledges to the American people he'll get Usama and Zarqawi

and then the media only barely reports he said it and then a a photo shows up from the campaign trail with a 2yo kid's ice cream cone dumped on his head then OMG - the media plays that photo up for months as indicative of the campaign..... then what?

Dem pundits and strategists and left media are DUMBASSES for not knowing enough about the candidates and letting the CORPORATE media distract them from REAL ISSUES

Expose the GOP control of the media for starters - or is that too REAL a task?

[HardWorkingDem]

40. Okay, sounds good, but how....

How can the linkage between the GOP/corporation/media be effective shown?

One of the best books on the media I've read in a long time is Weapons of Mass Deception by Rampton and Stauber. Great evidence is shown in this book of how these groups are in bed together, but how else can the majority of American people learn this?

And honestly, how many Democrats stood up during the 2004 primary and general campaign and took the bold move to strongly make the pledge to capture bin Laden while pointing out that Bush had more than 3 yrs to do it and he didn't get it done? I know I didn't see it and I know why: The Democrats were too afraid that Bush would pull him out of a hat in October of 04.

[blm]

42. Kerry did it all the time and especially called Bush out for Tora Bora

where they let Usama and most of Al Qaeda slip away even after he was cornered. Surely you didn't forget about that - it was a huge part of his campaign rallies and he hammered Bush with it at the debates - not that the media chose to highlight that hammering or discuss its contents.

[HardWorkingDem]

43. One voice not good enough....

Yes, near the end Kerry did hit on the aspect of Tora Bora, but all through the primaries the other Dems were very quiet on this issue and let's face it, it was done because of out of a fear of another "October Surprise". The Dems should have been hitting on this all the way from the start and if Bin Laden had been caught, then too bad. (They could have always harped on it taking 3 years.)

And if the shoes had been reversed, can you imagine how the Rethugs would have been acting if 9/11 had happened while a Dem president was in office?

On a funny side note, remember the chicken character that kept popping up at Bush I rallies during the Clinton race? One Dem trick would have been to have some guy follow Bush II around with a sign that said, "Where's Bin Laden?".

[blm]

44. True - he was a lone voice till Clark spoke up - but it was nowhere near

the end. Kerry jumped on Tora Bora and pounded on it right after it happened. He brought it up in every interview and appearance from Jan 2002 and throughout the primaries and general. Your view is that fed by corporate media perception who would not highlight this aspect of Kerry's campaign. They gave more airtime to Tommy Franks lying about Tora Bora for Bush then they gave Clark who was telling the truth alongside Kerry.

Russert did get Dean to side with Bush on Tora Bora during a July 2002 interview where he also criticized those speaking up about Tora Bora. That was a sneaky thing for Russert to do - and I have no doubt that BushInc would've used that clip against Dean if he were the nominee.

I'm surprised that you aren't more familiar with that issue at the time - I certainly posted about it consistently every time it came up for three years - since it seems to be an issue for you now.

[HardWorkingDem]

46. My point is....

at no time did the collective Democratic Party or those running hit Bush hard on not catching Bin Laden. For that matter, go back and look at media reports in regards to Saddam Hussein. They also were very quiet during the time from the invasion to that of when he was captured.

Also, Kerry may have been talking about Tora Bora early on, but during the primaries, Dean was the one sucking up the air time. And I watched ever debate I could and can't recall the group of them demanding to know where bin Laden was.

And I wish people would quit trying to tell other people what there "view" is or that they are shills for the corporate media.

But like I said, go back and look at some of the media reports, (start with the issues of Time and Newsweek after the 2004 election - the ones where they have certain reporters travel with the campaigns and make agreements not to report on certain things until after the election is over. This issue was discussed in these issues - that strategists were concerned about asking where bin Laden was in case he was pulled out of a hat in October).

As far as it being an issue with me now, this lack of behavior shows a great difference between the Dems and Repubs: that whether you like it or not, Rethugs have been known to be bold. Dems tend to play their cards more carefully and reserved.

[blm]

49. And my point is that you use mainstream media to say Dems DIDN'T talk

about it, while my point is that Dems DID talk about it more often than you and the general public know because corporate media would not HIGHLIGHT that part of their campaigns.

Yes, it's shameful Dems couldn't get on the same page with Kerry and Clark on Tora Bora - it was an extremely significant issue - but, most of the Dem candidates did talk about the failure to get Bin Laden in their overall criticism of Bush. It was the Dem party's big names and officeholders who couldn't bring themselves to support Kerry vocally on Tora Bora, and THAT became a major problem. Dem party has no disciplined strategy to give serious criticisms crucial BACK UP.

[HardWorkingDem]

50. Here is a partial list of MSM media I read....

The Nation, In These Times, The American Prospect, The New Republic, Clamor, Washington Monthly, Ode, Yes and others I'm probably forgetting.

Of these "MSM" publications, I can't think of any article where they covered that Democrats pledged to capture Bin Laden - know why? Because they didn't and that goes back to one of my earlier points: those advising these Dems were too afraid Bin Laden would be suddenly captured near the election of 2004.

I don't know what election you watched, but from what I saw, and I know I watched it closely, the Democrats never did come out and make a steady message of "where is bin Laden and why isn't he in custody." Talking about missing him in Tora Bora and talking about making sure he is captured are two different thing. And the Democrats built the belief in themselves that if Bush captured Bin Laden, then that would be hard to overcome in Nov of 04.

[blm]

52. I'm not a fan of left media - I think they depend on mainstream perception

too much and write their articles accordingly - usually criticizing Dems for storylines created and manufactured by the mainstream press.

The left media also has no sense of discipline, either - they refuse to get on the same page with the DEms the same way the RW message machine stays on track with BushInc. - no matter what. The RW machine can lie more effectively than the left can push the truth. Both sides are too lazy to do serious research, but that trait only benefits the GOPs.

[HardWorkingDem]

53. Okay then, where do you get your information from?

Curious to know......

[blm]

54. I'm a stickler for the congressional records to get real background

information and, especially, the National Security Archives. Robert Parry's consortiumnews is also solid since his articles always place the issues in their HISTORIC CONTENT. He knows how to link things happening today with the facts most journos have forgotten.

I do READ alot of the left media and am grateful for some of the gems - but, my criticism is a general overview. I post what I do hoping the left journos who visit here will take that criticism to heart.

[karynnj]

59. Kerry was criticized by the left for saying

he would go after the terrorists and KILL Bin Laden. His entire plan involved better use of international intelligence and law enforcement, following the money and commication flows to roll up these networks. But he always added that special forces would be needed to go in and kill or capture terrrorists.

[karynnj]

58. Right after he invaded, Kerry called for REGIME CHANGE HERE

that's about as strong a sound bite as you can get - short, angry and certainly pointed.

In the debates, they answered the questions given. The Newsweek after the election is a Kerry hatchet job - filled with inaccuracies. Including an enhanced version of the Kerry wanting McCain as VP - which was largely made up by the media and played with by both McCain and Biden.

[karynnj]

57. True - and when it was confirmed by the CIA guy who

was there in spring 2005, it was very nostalgic when Russert relayed a tape of Kerry in his barn coat speaking words I knew before he said them because I heard them every time I caught a rally on CSPAN. I have a decent memory, but that line was repeated at least hundreds of times.