"Illegal Immigration", a white nationalist ploy?

[inthebrain]

This is one of those issues in our "fair and balanced" media where I don't hear anyone "clamoring" to hear the other side. Afterall, for years conservatives have complained of a "liberal bias" in the media.

Where has the internationalist pro-labor side of this debate been on the news? Instead we have idiot Lou Dobbs on CNN and every pundit (Who have claimed for years that Hispanics are natural members of the GOP base. Funny to watch them spit in the face of their "base".) calling for their heads. Not to mention the ones clamoring for Bush's amnesty program that only leads to further the exploitation of this issue.

It's not the first time this country has suffered from misdirected class anger (Racism IS misdirected class anger). I can't tell you how many times I've seen the white nationalist VDare.com link come up whenever a discussion of immigration is addressed. It's got me wondering if all the years we've ignored these KKK loonies they've managed to build up a sizable contingincy?

I am of the mind that we need to build bridges with our fellow brothers and sisters south of the border that suffer from exploitation. The only way to do that is to stretch the labor movement southward while fortifying it here at home. The issue of NAFTA, CAFTA and the WTO effects us all north and south of the border. THese are vehicles of exploitation that can only be offset with a viable labor movement.

We should be pressuring the AFL/CIO to enlist them. Organized labor leads to boycotts, strikes and collective bargaining which are effective in raising wages for all. The more the merrier!!!!!!!

I think those that are falling for this nationalist ploy are getting suckered. I think it's unfortunate and they could benefit from learning a thing or two about past labor movements in this country.

[LoZoccolo]

1. Do you belong to a union?

Which one?

[flordehinojos]

2. yes.

white nationalist ploy--driven by white supremacist assholes--under the guise of save america- like lou dobbs.

[BigYawn]

71. This brown skinned legal immigrant ALSO opposes Illegal immigration

because I believe in the process of law, fairness to
those of us who had to jump through several hoops to
get legal status, and finally as a protection against
terrorists sneaking in to the country.

[Joanne98]

90. Shhhh! Your not suppose to exist.

[El Fuego]

3. Black leaders oppose illegal immigration

Black leaders oppose alien 'amnesty' plan
By Keyonna Summers
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
May 24, 2006


Black leaders from across the country yesterday decried a guest-worker "amnesty" plan that would legalize millions of illegal aliens and threatened to sue the U.S. government if such legislation is passed.
"We're on the cusp of very critical legislation that centers on immigration -- both legal and illegal," Frank Morris Sr., chairman of Choose Black America, a new coalition of black Americans opposed to illegal entry, told reporters at the National Press Club in Northwest. "African Americans are going to be hurt if this legislation moves forward, we are here to sound the alarm."
Choose Black America says that illegal entry hurts all U.S. citizens, but that job displacement by illegals has especially devastated black communities.


http://washingtontimes.com/metro/20060523-112231-6327r.htm

[inthebrain]

8. You can always count on the Moonie times

It's always interesting to see conservative news sources play with the quotes of others to gove it their own spin. I know this game well and have caught them doing this;

<<"African Americans are going to be hurt if this legislation moves forward, we are here to sound the alarm."
Choose Black America says that illegal entry hurts all U.S. citizens, but that job displacement by illegals has especially devastated black communities>>>

Only to find upon further research that the quote was taken out of context. It's an old trick.

It's also not the first time that I've seen bigots take a statement from a black person and use it to further there own bogoted ends. Bill Cosby statements are often used by white nationalists to meet their ends as well.

[Bridget Burke]

15. FAIR is behind "Choose Black America"

(From WUSATV9)

Are illegal immigrants stealing jobs from African Americans? That's the claim of a new group called Choose Black America. And it's steeped in controversy.

Choose Black America is literally wrapping itself in the flag. And it says it's bad for poor African American communities to offer any path to citizenship for immigrants in the country illegally.

The group of largely conservative activists from LA was flown into DC by the FAIR, the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which is battling the President's plan for immigration reform.

The organization claims its African Americans who bear the brunt of the influx of millions of illegal aliens. But not a single elected African American official attended the event....

www.wusatv9.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=49661&provider=top

Then, who is behind FAIR? (From the Southern Poverty Law Center)

It is not often that a single individual is largely responsible for creating an entire political movement. But John Tanton can claim without exaggeration that he is the founding father of America's modern anti-immigration movement. In addition to directly controlling four prominent immigration restriction groups, Tanton has been critical in establishing or helping fund several other anti-immigration groups. He serves on the board of the group with the largest membership, the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), which he founded 23 years ago.

It was an odd turn of events for an erstwhile liberal activist who loved beekeeping and the rural life. Raising a family and practicing medicine in Petoskey, Mich., Tanton started out as a passionate environmentalist. In the 1960s and early 1970s, he was a leader in the National Audubon Society, the Sierra Club and other mainstream environmental groups.

But Tanton soon became fixated on population control, seeing environmental degradation as the inevitable result of overpopulation. When the indigenous birth rate fell below replacement level in the United States, his preoccupation turned to immigration. And this soon led him to race.

Tanton had something akin to a conversion when he came across The Camp of the Saints, a lurid, racist novel written by Frenchman Jean Raspail that depicts an invasion of the white, Western world by a fleet of starving, dark-skinned refugees.

www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=180


The OP's question: "Illegal Immigration", a white nationalist ploy?

The answer? YES!

(Thanks to El Fuego, for supplying this most interesting link.)

[proud2BlibKansan]

38. That is not at all true in my community

Our pro immigration rallies have been heavily attended by African Americans and have also featured speakers who are leaders in our African American community.

Oh sorry I just saw this is from the Moonie Times. No need to question the article then; it is undoubtedly full of factual errors.

[El Fuego]

88. In the real world

there is no love lost between poor black communities and poor Hispanic communities. They pretty much hate each other.

[Radical Activist]

39. the "guest worker" program is not immigration

is a constantly rotating slave labor force. It isn't immigration at all since they get sent back after a few years of work with no opportunity for upward mobilization.

[MrTriumph]

4. How can it be racist when American workers of all races...

are the ones having their jobs stolen?

face it: This is not a racist issue. It's about Americans- Americans of every race- having their jobs stolen.

[inthebrain]

7. I'm sure the lawyers, DRs, Teachers, Firemen, Iron Workers etc

are all suffering poverty because pedro is picking oranges and mopping floors.

[MrTriumph]

11. Are you saying,"Screw Am. sheet rockers, roofers, tile setters, framers,

painters, etc."?

If your point is that many segments are not suffering due to the competition of cheap illegal labor, I agree.

Were lawyers, pundits, congressmen and editorial boards facing that kind of competition, there would be a 40' high electrified fence along the border.

[unlawflcombatnt]

13. Right You Are

Calling it a "racist" issue is all he has left in the way of arguments. Nothing else holds any water.

[1932]

18. In Freakonomics, there's a chapter on how anti-latino discrimination is

acceptable in the US. I have no doubt in my mind that people's willingness to see latinos as dumb and lazy is feeding their acceptance right-wing frames for looking at this issue.

[sadiesworld]

35. "...see latinos as dumb and lazy..."

Quite the contrary. Latinos (particularly illegal immigrants) are portrayed as being very hardworking, doing those jobs that US citizens won't do--we won't even pick lettuce for $50 an hour, remember? The right-wing (particularly) has been absolutely horrible about not-so-subtly implying that we need Latinos to do jobs that blacks are too lazy to do. Think NOLA.

As for being "dumb", the only time I hear any reference to latinos "intelligence" is when the unlimited immigration proponents attempt to argue that illegal latino immigrants will be "content" with unskilled labor and therefore won't jeopardize white collar jobs.

The only workers who are consistently portrayed as "dumb and lazy" are US workers. Between the jobs we're too lazy to do (anything unskilled) and the jobs we're too stupid for (anything skilled which can be insourced or off-shored) there's precious little left.

[Joanne98]

91. Well said.

[Radical Activist]

41. Maybe you're the one stealing their job.

Why do you have a greater right to a job than they do? Because you're an American? Are you somehow more deserving of a job simply because of the nation you were born in? Nationalism and racism are closely tied together.

[sadiesworld]

47. He has an ABSOLUTE right to expect that his elected representatives

will protect his ability to earn a decent wage. That's the WHOLE POINT of democracy, to elect people who will represent YOUR interests. Jeez, * isn't the only one who has this democracy stuff all twisted around.

[Radical Activist]

48. one aspect of nationalism

is the belief that you have more value has a human being and are entitled to more things because of the nation you are born into. You're describing nationalism, not democracy.

[sadiesworld]

50. Self-interest is inherent in representative government, democracy.

You're preaching religion, not discussing politics.

[LoZoccolo]

5. Hello, I asked you a question.

#1 please?

[inthebrain]

6. If I do or if I don't

Please just get to your point.

(I can dissemble as well)

[TankLV]

9. Not at all - it's a LEGITIMATE concern for most of us.

Unfortunately, it has attracted the racists out of their caves.

[inthebrain]

10. "Legitimate" being subjective

Whats the concern?

The concern with a real opposition party shouldnt be mothers and fathers crossing the boder to find work in order to feed their kids. I find that to be rather heroic considering all the dead beat parents out there. I think it's admirable that peoplea are willing to do that in order to work.

The concern amongst us all should be exploitation and extending labor rights to anyone inside our borders. That means minimum wage standards (Which are in dire need of improvement, paying people overtime, improving union power and not locking them in. This would also make it harder for our very own corporations to exploit workers in the other side of the border. These actions are much more effective at raising wages and defeating oppressive NAFTA, WTO, CAFTA and Right to Work Laws.

We live in the wealthiest nation in the fucking world. We can take this issue and wag in the faces of the stingy bastards that have us all working jobs that it took three people to do for 1/3 of the pay.

This issue has been used brilliantly to pull a country that is trudging center right on economic issues even further to the right.

Is it a legitimate issue?

Perhaps.

Depends on what your issues are. I for one am not about to throw a segment of humanity, that I care about, to the wolves.

[MrTriumph]

12. Why do you hate American workers so much?

"Depends on what your issues are. I for one am not about to throw a segment of humanity, that I care about, to the wolves."

Why doesn't this apply to American workers - of all races- that have their jobs stolen by cheap illegal labor?

[inthebrain]

14. It is not YOUR jobs that are stolen

It is OUR labor that is stolen. ALL OF US!!!!!

We do not own our jobs. What we do own is our labor. The American Worker is just as much the victim in this game as the "illegal" worker. Going after those that are of your class interests is a foolish mistake in a globalized labor market. Building walls and fences will not deter the exploitation, it will increase it!!!!

Until many of you learn to collectivly withhold what is your (YOUR LABOR) you will continually lose this game. It takes knowing the stakes involved.

[MrTriumph]

19. Inthebrain, it is time you moved to Texas, picked up a hammer & tried to

compete in the construction trades with illegals. Until then, you just don't get it.

[inthebrain]

22. Its time you read a bit of history

and learned how everytime you pull this anyi immigration act you wind up shooting yourself in the foot.

If your labor is what you really cared about then it is YOUR labor will protect as a commodity. That means doing a little colluding on your own with your fellow laborers.

You ant immigration advocates happen to be some of the densist. Labor can not afford to divide itself and todays world. It's an issue of exploitation and wall building will only continue it.

[MrTriumph]

24. What 'history' have you read? BTW, Bush appreciates your blind support.

"If your labor is what you really cared about then it is YOUR labor will protect as a commodity. That means doing a little colluding on your own with your fellow laborers."

You don't get it. Most of the jobs stolen by illegals are in industries with little or no union presence. And in "Right to Work" states, the situation is more dire.

Is it too much to ask that the American gov't enforce immigration laws that protect the American people?

xxxxxxxxxxxx

"You ant immigration advocates happen to be some of the densist"

inthebrain, if you are going to call people stupid, how about polishing your writing skills a little, huh? BTW, only densi people would advocate restricting the immigration of ants.

[High Plains]

86. And Sensenbrenner appreciates your blind support.

[1932]

25. True dat.

Double True!

[sadiesworld]

36. That's crap.

Unionism thrives when immigration decreases and illegal immigration is PARTICULARLY damaging to organized labor. Honestly, do some research.

[inthebrain]

44. It's not crap

Unions strive by becoming INCLUSIVE!!!!!! The more people you pull into the fold the more effective you will become when organizing National strikes and boycotts. Had labor unions back in the day not exclueded women and blacks, there struggle would have been a lot easier. If unions refuse to include those that are being exploited then they serve no better than the capitalist who seeks to exploit.

Unions were created by breaking laws that were harmfull to labor.

In todays globalized world what do you think that means?

[sadiesworld]

45. The importation of illegal labor is the MEANS by which

organized labor is rendered ineffective. The whole concept of unions is the collective might of workers with similar goals and rights. Illegal immigrants and guest workers BY DEFINITION do not have the same goals and rights as US citizens. They are willing to work for less money and in worse conditions and EVEN if they are willing to "fight" they cannot challenge pay and conditions due to their status. This diminished status IS the reason they are here.

If we were talking about labor unions in China, for example, you might have a point about globalization. However, the importation of cheap labor into industrialized, unionized countries is about lowering wages and destroying organized labor, not lifting up the worker.

Cesar Chavez understood that when he led the fight to end a temporary worker program in the 60's.

[1932]

70. Chavez protested SCAB illegal immigrants. UFW was not anti-illegal imgrnts

They just wanted them unionized.

They also opposed the temporary program because Chavez's UFW supported a process for legalizing illegal workers:

The battle for farmworker loyalty turned from the fields to immigration offices, as the UFW and farmers established competing Qualified Designated Entities to help unauthorized farmworkers become legal immigrants. The farmers’ QDE was one of the largest, helping over 50,000 foreigners gain legal status, but most of the 1.3 million SAW applicants applied with the help of private attorneys and consultants. The UFW nonetheless hoped that the now-legal workers would feel confident to demand higher wages and the restoration of benefits that were dropped in the 1980s. However, illegal immigration surged, as Mexicans moved to the United States hoping for legal status. The result, according to the federal Commission on Agricultural Workers, was "a general oversupply of farm labor nationwide... generally interfered with workers’ ability to organize. With fraudulent documents easily available, employer sanctions have been largely ineffective."10

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back104.html

[sadiesworld]

73. Illegal immigrants willing to work for less than the union wage...

ARE scab labor. In the article you've cited, labor organizer Bert Corona stated that Chavez supported the apprehension and deportation of "undocumented Mexican immigrants who were being used as scabs by the growers". Again and again illegal immigration was used to destroy the gains made by the UFW.

As late as the 80's, the UFW (aware of the threat of illegal labor) argued in favor of employer sanctions. However, California growers won and were given the guest worker program that would allow them to get around the UFW. The UFW turned to legalizing workers only after being repeatedly burned by politicians. And, as you note, surges in illegal immigration once again destroyed any ability to organize.

Cesar Chavez was adamantly opposed to illegal immigration during the time period he was deemed to have been effective in raising wages and working conditions for migrant workers. The UFW is largely irrelevant today in terms of organized labor.

The same thing that was done to farm workers is now being done to entire industries, e.g., construction, hospitality and meatpacking.

[1932]

74. What about the quote in my post?

The UFW supported legalizing and unionizing illegal immigrants.

Where is that sentiment in today's debate about illegal immigration?

[sadiesworld]

78. What ABOUT the quote in your post?

The UFW opposed illegal immigration during the time it was actually effective in raising standards for farmworkers. By the early 90's, when the UFW started legalizing immigrants, the UFW and Chavez were considered largely ineffective. Once again, the overabundance of labor caused by illegal immigration destroyed any hopes of progress.

Where is that sentiment in today's debate? Exactly where it has been for the past 20+ years. The senate bill contemplates the legalization of the 12M illegal immigrants already in this country. Any possible gains made by legalizing those workers will be lost by continued illegal immigration (even the commentary in the bill alludes to only a 10% decrease in illegal immigration over the next few years) and the despicable guest worker program.

Legalize some workers, continue to turn a blind eye to illegal immigration, institute guest worker program, rinse and repeat.

[1932]

80. In one case I can find an example of the UFW opposing illegal immigrants

and it was in a very specific situation where employers were circumventing strikes by picking up scabs in Mexico. Chavez opposed that. The first place I look gives an example of the UFW supporting legalization and unionization of illegal immigrants.

If you want me to believe your argument, I'd like to see some sources that support your argument.

Also, even if I conceded (without any evidence) that the UFW's position on illegal immigration has evolved, I'm not convinced by the logic that everything the UFW did back then was right and everything they do now is wrong.

(Oh, by the way, I found 100 google hits where right wingers CLAIM Chavez opposed (broadly construed) illegal immigration. I just couldn't find any primary sources that supported the claim that he opposed them in any case other than that one particular scab situation.)

[sadiesworld]

82. Cripes, read your own article.

The article makes several references to Chavez's (and the UFW's) early opposition to illegal immigration. It discusses how the UFW patrolled the border (1), the UFW testified in favor of employer sanctions (6), Chavez's position on illegal immigration per Corona (14) and the change in the UFW's position (14&15).

My guess is that a better litmus test than LW vs RW in determing truth may be to look at which position is supported by big business.

BTW, scab labor is not defined by whether the scab worker is escorted across the picket line or whether they cross of their own accord.

Honestly, I think we're finished here.

[inthebrain]

95. Its the exploitation of labor

not the importation of "illegal" immigrants. You don't have to import labor into this country in order to hurt workers. What hurts labor and Unions is the EXPLOITATION OF LABOR ANYWHERE ON THE GLOBE!!!!!!!

Laborers are not willing to work for wages. They take the best that is offered to them and most of the time it's a shit wage. The exploitation of labor in China is about reducing Union Power here at home.

Use you head and think about this. You're close but you aint that close.

[Greyhound]

33. And a limitless supply of labor ensures that labor will never again

"rise above its station". Is that really what you want?

[Bridget Burke]

16. A resounding YES!

For those who haven't read my somewhat verbose post above, here's information on John Tanton, the power behind much of the current anti-immigration movement. Source: Rightweb.

John Tanton is widely recognized as the leading figure in the anti-immigration and "official English" movements in the United States. Initially, Tanton's public policy advocacy work was driven by his commitment to zero population growth and environmental conservation. By the late 1970s, however, this concern about the environment and population growth evolved into a crusade against immigration flows into the United States, particularly from Latin American and Caribbean nations......

Along with a few other FAIR board members, in the early 1980s Tanton founded a nationalist organization called WITAN-short for the Old English term "witenagemot," meaning "council of wise men." In 1986, Tanton signed a memo that went to WITAN members that highlighted the supremacist bent of Tanton and FAIR. The memo charged that Latin American immigrants brought a culture of political corruption with them to the United States and that they were unlikely to involve themselves in civil life. He raised the alarm that they could become the majority group in U.S. society. What's more, he asked: "Can homo contraceptivus compete with homo progenitiva?" Answering his own rhetorical question, Tanton wrote that "perhaps this is the first instance in which those with their pants up are going to get caught by those with their pants down!"

According to Tanton, "In California 2030, the non-Hispanic Whites and Asians will own the property, have the good jobs and education, speak one language and be mostly Protestant and 'other.' The Blacks and Hispanics will have the poor jobs, will lack education, own little property, speak another language and will be mainly Catholic." Furthermore, Tanton raised concerns about the "educability" of Hispanics. In 1988 the media published the Tanton memo, causing a number of former supporters of U.S. English to cut ties with Tanton, including Walter Cronkite.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1360

Information from the more "acceptable" of Tanton's groups has been posted here at DU by the anti-immigrant crowd. They whine about accusations of "racism"--but racism is the basis of their movement.

[MrTriumph]

20. What tripe. Concern with illegal immigration is not racist.

For crying out loud, we are talking about protecting the jobs and wages of Americans of all races.

Why do you hate American workers so much?

[inthebrain]

21. I see

It's that border to the south you are concerned with. Not our friends from the Great WHITE North.

[MrTriumph]

23. 3 million Canadians will not sneak over the border this year. Duh!

x

[proud2BlibKansan]

55. No but they have arrived from Europe

Boston is teeming with illegal Irish immigrants. Funny we don't hear any noise about them.

[MrTriumph]

60. Let's see there are 6 million from Mexico and how many from Ireland?

People tend to focus on the largest part of a problem. Mexico leads the way by far in providing- in fact promoting- illegal labor. It isn't racist. Mexico is where most of the illegals are coming from.

Companies that hire illegals of any national origin should be heavily fined and management subject to JAIL time. There. Feel better?

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. LInk?

[MrTriumph]

63. Link to what?

For cryin' out loud, 6 million is considered a low figure by most experts. Get with the program.

[proud2BlibKansan]

65. To prove this

"Mexico leads the way by far in providing- in fact promoting- illegal labor. It isn't racist. Mexico is where most of the illegals are coming from."

Oh and don't tell ME to "get with the program".

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. So in other words you aren't willing to back up your claims

[MrTriumph]

93. No. I'm not willing to do your homework.

x

[Starbucks Anarchist]

68. Here's a link about Mexico promoting illegal immigration:

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special03/articles/0106hayworth-mexico06.html

(snip)

The self-stated purpose of the of 32-page comic book published by Mexico's Foreign Ministry is to give would-be undocumented immigrants some "practical advice." But it offers no detailed information on applying for U.S. visas. Instead, it gives tips on such things as what to wear when crossing rivers or how to avoid dehydration when crossing the desert. The information is being distributed as a free supplement to El Libro Vaquero, a popular cowboy comic book.

[Bridget Burke]

27. You accuse people of hating the American Worker....

And supporting Bush.

But when someone points out the racist roots of the Anti-Immigration Movement, you get all offended.

[MrTriumph]

31. Because it is not racist. It's about fighting lower wages for Americans

of ALL races

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. . . . by demonizing the brown skinned workers

from Central America? I don't see any of you so-called 'pro-worker' types yet advocate for the migrant Hispanic workers. You think that we pro-immigration folks are favoring them over American born workers. But that isn't it at all. We want fair wages FOR ALL. We also see the enemy here as the corporations who hire the migrants, not the migrant workers.

As long as you pro-worker people continue to blame this problem on immigrants instead of on companies, you bet we will label your complaints racist and xenophobic. Cause they are.

[jonnyblitz]

43. ...

:applause: :thumbsup:

[proud2BlibKansan]

56. Thank you

[MrTriumph]

59. Racist & Xenophobic? Bunk

"I don't see any of you so-called 'pro-worker' types yet advocate for the migrant Hispanic workers"

Yada, yada, yada. The issue is how American families - of all races- are being punished by excess labor coming illegally into the country.

You need to get past the easy name calling and look at the issues.

[proud2BlibKansan]

61. No you need to look at the big picture here

It's easy to blame the workers and not think about WHY they are coming here and HOW our country's policies contributed to the reasons they are so determined to do anything to work, even crossing our border illegally.

You are right - the American worker is being penalized. But the smart solution provides a remedy for ALL workers, not only the ones who were born in the USA.

Easy name calling - LOL
How about 'aliens', 'disease ridden', 'criminals', "gangsters'? What about THOSE names?

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joanne98]

87. If you keep calling Democrats racist and xenophobic....

We're going to lose seats this election.

[1932]

17. It's just like gay marriage.

the 'debate' is taking place entirely on the right side of the spectrum.

you're absolutely right.

[MrTriumph]

26. No, gay marriage is not stealing jobs from Americans.

x

[1932]

28. Actually, gay RIGHTS is about job security, health insurance, two-income

families having more economic, and therefore political power, etc. It's very much about work.

However, the right wing desperately afraid of discussing gay rights in terms that would energize an awareness of workers' rights and of how they are exploitedf instead decided to frame gay rights in terms of the two most conservative institutions in America: the right to serve in the military, and the right to have your union sanctioned by the church. Framing a worker-rights issue as a religious/moral issue was a nice way to avoid the worker-rights part of the discussion.

Immigration is being framed EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. Progressives should be talking about in terms of unions and higher wages and the end of the neoliberal exploitation of economies and people and resources in the countries from which the immigrants are coming. Instead, the frame is that these law breakers are lowering wage rates for the people who should be pushing the progressive argument (and lets not forget that their is no evidence that that's even true -- states with the most immigration have the most jobs and highest wages, and we've never, as a nation, prevented immigration within the country to, for example, protect Arizonans, Californians or North Carolinians from having to compete with people moving out of the north east). So, basically, lies that don't even stand up to the most elementary scrutiny are turning the debate away from the frames that would actually help America become less f-ed up in terms of distribution of wealth and power.

[Bridget Burke]

29. "Workers' Rights" terrifies the powers that be.

Disappearing rights, dwindling health benefits, stressed education system, crumbling infrastructure, abuse of the environment? Let's not mention greedy corporations, tax cuts for the rich & the continuing hemorrhage of our tax dollars in Afghanistan, Iraq (& Iran). (And the continuing hemorrhage of blood....)

Let's blame the Mexicans! Or the Gays! Not only can blame be deflected from the Republicans--but the haters will have a good excuse to go public with their hate.

[MrTriumph]

30. Oh, get real. New Yorkers moving to CA are Americans

that have contributed to this country. They are not foreigners look for a better paying job. (Per Pew Research, about 50% of Mexicans coming to the US illegally had a job in Mexico).

All the union-rabble is interesting, but not a real-world solution.

Newsflash: With 3 million illegals sneaking in this year competing with Americans for lower wage jobs, wages are not going to increase.

[Bridget Burke]

32. "union-rabble"?

Please explain.

How can someone who supports the American Worker hate Unions?

[VLAD THE AGITATOR]

34. Hate Unions?

I am a strong supporter of the worker, all workers, but American trade unions are there solely for economic reasons. They want the worker to have politcal clout not political power. And it has been that way since their inception. Workers made the US and for all their hard work and sacrifice, they are religated to be nothing but a bunch of people to be wooed every 4 yrs or so.

Do I hate American unions--you bet!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bridget Burke]

37. You've got a great future....

Down at the Laundromat.

[ncrainbowgrrl]

66. Welcome to DU, VLAD THE AGITATOR!

:hi:

[MrTriumph]

57. I do not hate unions at all. Why do misconstrue what I said?

At great sacrifice unions have given American workers something employers would not grant: safety, pay and dignity.

But you haven't a clue as to the damage illegal labor has done to American working families.

[1932]

69. Why do you think any of those points are relevant to the question

whether an influx of economic migrants is bad for the economy in the place to which they migrate?

A New Yorker might have a poorly paying job in NY and leave for a better chance in CA. Do Californians complain about New Yorkers moving to California, lowering wages for everyone and being a dray on the economy?

Nope.

Why?

Because work creates wealth. If people are going somewhere to work, they are creating wealth, and that's like planting a seed that grows and benefits everyone.

People should not be fooled by these right wing frames for this issue.

[Radical Activist]

40. "I only oppose illegal immigration"

Anytime someone says that I usually assume they are a racist xenophobe trying to hide behind less offensive phraseology. Let's solve the illegal immigration problem by making ALL immigration legal. Why don't they support that if their only problem is "illegal" immigration? Making all immigration legal would force the racists to shed their cute terms and show themselves for what they really are.

[sadiesworld]

46. Do you consider me a racist?

I support controlled immigration. I desire a level of legal immigration that can be supported without putting undue pressue on this country's infrastructure (physical and economic) or on US workers' wages.

[Radical Activist]

49. Explain

why we shouldn't make all immigration legal. Try to do it without using nationalism or racism.

[sadiesworld]

51. "Try to do it without using nationalism or racism"????

You're cracking me up here.

[Radical Activist]

52. If you can't do it

then my point is made. Most can't.

[sadiesworld]

54. You're advocating open borders.

If you can't see how tens of millions of people moving to this country every year will put unimaginable pressue on wages, roads, sewage systems, natural resources, social safety nets, hospitals, police, firefighters, etc., I really wouldn't know where to start. It would be CHAOS.

Maybe you could outline the utopia YOU envision and we could go from there?

I have to run an errand but I'll certainly check back later. lol

[Bridget Burke]

53. If all the workers were legal, they could organize for better wages.

(Odd that so many Friends of the Worker manage to hide their concern when immigration is not on the table.)

Then put them to work rebuilding the Infrastructure. And the schools. Of course, that would require money now being wasted in Iraq. Can't make the Republicans look bad!

[MrTriumph]

58. Are you joking? With an illegal ready to take your job TODAY an American

does not stand a chance to enhance his standing. How many sheetrocker unions have formed? How many roofers have organized? Bricklayers? Tile setters?


Bridget, why do you think those who are in unions hate scabs? Because with excess labor available they have no power.

[1932]

72. If there are a lot of well-paid bricklayers, then there are more jobs

for accountants, lawyers, doctors, and there are more small businesses to serve them.

Unemployment does not increase with immigration, and I bet (as any LIBERAL would) that lower wages correlate most highly with the increasing power of corporations over politics and the decreasing power of unions.

[Bridget Burke]

85. The UAW says current anti-immigration hysteria undermines SOLIDARITY.

They oppose the current system of forcing "illegals" to remain illegal & subject to exploitation.

The UAW believes, as it always has, that our nation should embrace the immigrant community for its diversity, its values, and its contributions. We cannot fall victim to those employers who attempt to divide workers by invidious criteria, including race, ethnicity, religion or immigration status, playing one group against the other in an effort to undermine solidarity and prevent the advancement of social justice....

The current system of employer sanctions has failed to deter undocumented workers from coming to our country. Instead, it has fostered discrimination against minorities and exploitation of immigrant workers. The current system of employer sanctions needs to be scrapped, and replaced with a system that allows undocumented immigrant workers to adjust their status to become permanent residents and citizens.

www.uaw.org/cap/06/issues/issue09.cfm

Yes, the UAW wants to reform the immigration system. But they want better rights for all workers--including those now considered illegal.

And I don't see anything about The Fence.

[sadiesworld]

76. If "all workers were legal"...

we'd have open borders. I already invited one poster to discuss what tens of millions of poor, desperate people flooding into the US might look like, I invite you to do the same.

(Odd that so many Friends of the Brown People managed to hide their concern when CAFTA was on the table.)

Please let me know when the "schools or Iraq War" vote comes up.

[1932]

77. Most Dems voted against CAFTA. Opposing the neoliberal foreign policies

that create desperate poor abroad and supporting unions and living wages at home can and do go hand in hand.

[sadiesworld]

79. I was (as was the poster I responded to) referring to DUers...

although I do find it strange that enough dems always manage to cross the aisle to vote for these atrocities that they can arguably be called bi-partisan bills.

I oppose neoliberalism abroad and support unions and a living wage at home. I also consider flooding 1st world nations with cheap labor in order to drive down wages to be an integral component of neoliberalism.

[1932]

81. Then you're for treating the symptoms and not the causes if you're

putting so much energy into building high walls around America.

Ending neoliberal foreign policies abroad and strengthening unions and paying people fair wages at home treats the causes of the problem.

[sadiesworld]

83. Neoliberalism demands cheap labor.

If the work can't be off-shored to be performed by cheaper labor, than the cheap labor must be insourced.

[Joanne98]

92. The Washington Consensus

[Joanne98]

89. Making ALL immigration legal? Larry Kudlow agrees....

Along with Grover Norquist, The Club for Growth and the Cato Institute. In fact ALL the pro-supplysiders want open borders. YAY! For a FREE MARKET ECONOMY! Let everybody in. Let the market decide.

[Joanne98]

75. The corperations will never allow a world workers movement....

This is a nice idea but it won't work. They are no international structures to work with. The WTO will squash any trans-national effort at globalizing workers rights. Left-wing nationalism, within borders, country by country is the only way. A free flow of labor across borders is just what Wall Street wants. Adam Smith part two. Mexico needs a Hugo Chavez for president and Mexico needs to join OPEC! That would fix their asses good.

[ellisonz]

94. This Thread Makes Me Smile

:D