The loss of middle class jobs in the U.S.

[LiberalEsto]

My husband is a database administrator in a large IT (Information Technology) department in a huge company.

In recent years he's seen co-workers laid off in droves and replaced by H1-B programmers and system analysts from India. The H1B regulations require they be paid the equivalent of what an American worker would be paid for the same job.

But companies get around it by changing a few tasks in the job description and claiming it is not the same position. So a $75,000-a-year systems analyst gets canned, and winds up on unemployment, unable to find anything in his line of work. Someone from India (or wherever)comes in on an H1B visa to take his job, at a salary of $35,000. Usually it's Indians, because many of them speak English.

The company reaps a huge savings and passes part of it to their lobbyists, who push Congress to raise limits on the number of H1B workers.

I work in a different field, but a few years ago I was in an unemployment support group with several unemployed computer professionals who used to earn decent middle-class salaries. These guys ended up broke after the unemployment benefits ran out. It took three years for one of them to find a job in his field, with significantly lower pay. I think the other is working temp jobs to pay the rent. They know lots of other computer people in the same boat.

Back in the late 70s and early 80s, lots of Americans studied for computer jobs, because the nation's manufacturing base was moving overseas, and factory jobs were vanishing. Career counselors and high school guidance counselors told us that high-tech was the future. Many people invested years and thousands of dollars in specialized computer education, and found jobs that enabled them to buy homes and raise children, even though both husband and wife needed to work full time in order to pay the bills.

Now, because of corporate greed - so that CEOs and high-level execs can grab those outrageously enormous salaries and bonuses - Americans have been phased out of another career field that offered a middle-class life. Similar things are happening in other fields.

What is left for us? MacDonald's? WalMart? How do you live on those salaries? How do you marry, raise children, realize the American dream of owning a home? How do you even afford a visit to the doctor?

One of the characters in one of Kurt Vonnegut's early novels, "Player Piano," was a foreign ruler visiting a future America in which only top Ph.D.s had jobs. Everyone else was unemployed, in the military, or doing the most basic janitorial work. People were basically useless and unnecessary. Machines and computers did just about everything. And after witnessing all this, the ruler's only question for the supercomputer that ran the country was: "What are people FOR?"

Well, what are Americans here for? What are we supposed to do with ourselves? Scrub floors and live in cardboard boxes? Vanish?

Vonnegut was railing against a future in which average people were put out of work by machines. He didn't envision that other factors, such as people from foreign countries willing to work for far lower wages, could also jeopardize America's middle class jobs.

If we continue in this direction, what is going to happen to us as people? Houses cost a fortune, college costs a fortune, and Congress still refuses to raise the $5.15 minimum wage to a level that people can live on. People no longer have medical benefits. Doctors and dentists cost a fortune. We are failing to take care of the people who are already here, living in America, simply wanting work that pays enough to live on.

How would people in another nation react if vast numbers of Americans flooded in and took all their best-paying middle class jobs. And the people in that country were relegated to service jobs that barely paid enough to live on?

Say we managed to get the major corporations in Romania, India, China, Mexico or Indonesia to pressure their governments to stack immigration and employment regulations to favor American workers. Say tens of thousands, even 100,000, Americans flooded into that country -- or any other industrialized nation -- and snagged all the good jobs in a given field or two, at lower pay than the natives received.

I think people in such a country would riot. People expect the governments they elect to take care of THEM first.

Unfortunately, we live in an America where the government takes care of the corporations, not the people. If the people running corporations see a way to further enrich themselves at the expense of those who worked for years of their lives to build the profits of those corporations, they will do so. The corpocrats don't care if Americans have decent jobs. In fact I think they prefer us to be barely subsisting, so that we end up willing to take any sort of lousy work, with low pay and long hours and no pesky unions or OSHA laws.

I don't consider my viewpoint a xenophobic one. It's not about "The Indians are coming here and grabbing our jobs." It's about "The corporations are stacking the system to take away Americans' middle class jobs and hand them to whatever foreigners can do the job for the lowest cost."

Yes, I understand that businesses exist to make a profit. But surely they can earn a reasonable profit without paying their CEOs such bloated salaries (Example: Exxon Mobil CEO earns $13,500 an HOUR!), and without destroying the American middle class, the people whose education and work and taxes and purchasing power helped make these corporations as large and profitable as they are today.

Have they no shame? Of course not.

[MichiganVote]

1. They'll suck up fast enough when we stop buying their products

[LiberalEsto]

2. We won't be able to afford them

but maybe the H1B workers will

[MichiganVote]

4. That's the idea. Let the Indians buy the shit if they like it so much.

[NMDemDist2]

3. excellent analysis LE, K&N n/t

[Andromeda]

118. Sorry to piggyback your post, AZDemDist6...

but this is one of the most intelligent threads I've read in recent weeks. It's a serious subject and a topic everyone should care about.

Kicked and nominated!

[The_Casual_Observer]

5. How do they manage it?

In my neighborhood, it's either inherited money, or very extended families living in the same house with everybody engaged in non-traditional "jobs".

[acmejack]

6. No they won't

They are creating a new consumer base in India and China. We are disposable, when we get down to paying off the huge national debt as the world bank is sure to demand that we address soon, we will have no money to buy these luxuries. We will experience first hand how hard it is to exist as citizens in a third world economy. It shall be bleak indeed.

I am actually quite concerned, if I wasn't as old as I am, I would be terrified. If I had children, I would be consumed with guilt. As it is, I don't feel too damned good about myself or anyone else. We have taken something that was really good and fucked it up horribly. I am so sorry...

[unlawflcombatnt]

32. Yes

That's right where we're headed. If American workers have to compete with 3rd world workers for wages, they'll get paid like 3rd world workers.

But the consumer market created by American wages and the spending it finances will also dry up. American multinational won't be able to sell their products when the entire world, including the U.S., is making 3rd world wages.

[Fire Walk With Me]

152. Wolfowitz, the Iraq invasion mastermind, heads the World Bank.

Expect preferential treatment to the NWO.

It's not us and them, regarding country versus country, but the rich of our countries allying and restructuring the world economically.

[okieinpain]

153. yeah, but india and china are tender boxes waiting to go up

I just don't believe you can have a population with a billion or more and expect everyone to sit back and wait for there turn. when one of those work citys experiences a riot with a good 2 or 3 hundred thousand and some of those factories go up in smoke, lets see how fast they want to outsource their money makers.

[lastliberalintexas]

158. Yes, that new Indian and Chinese middle class

is being created for a reason. We are entirely replacable, and the sooner Americans realize that the better. But of course, that doesn't go with the USA! #1! mentality we're taught from birth, so I'm afraid the majority won't realize it until it's biting them in the rear.

[primative1]

7. What do we tell our kids?

In 20 years I have seen careers in electronics and chemical engineering vanish. Now I have a daughter graduating with her degree in Biotech. She received a scholarship to pursue a MS basically fully paid and I am sitting here still undecided if I should be thrilled with the prospect of a shining career ahead of her or the reality that based on my experiences, she should get out there NOW and take the work that is still there before the powers that be ship it overseas or import people to do it for her here. They say Ireland will be the hotspot for biotech soon. Sad
What a world we live in. Greedy pigz...

[LiberalEsto]

8. I've got 2 in college

and neither can figure out what to do.

It may not even be worth the cost for my younger one at this point. She'd be better off going into real estate or something.

The other, 8 credits short of a history major, now thinks she should get a teaching certificate, if she can afford it. She's got $40,000 in college loans.

Kids in other countries get free tuition if they can pass entrance exams. Governments in other countries take care of their citizens. This country sure as hell doesn't.

[primative1]

9. My wife wonders why I cant sleep at night ...

Just get so ANGRY ... but who at. They never stand up and take the credit.

[mcscajun]

10. "Hands-On" jobs are the ones to leap into

In our brave new world of outsourcing, offshoring, and just-in-time inventory, where even your order at McDonald's may be taken by someone a thousand miles away from the steam table on which your soggy burger sits, no job is safe if it can be moved to a remote location at cheaper cost.

Carve this one on stone:
Anything that can be moved, will be moved, you can bet on it.

ONLY if it needs a pair of hands on the site to accomplish it, will we still be doing it here in America.

[bain_sidhe]

15. maybe not even those...

I just submitted a short story (fingers crossed) about a heating/cooling repair man being put out of business by "remote repair bots."

Hasn't someobody already done surgery by remote?

[mcscajun]

25. Is your short story Fiction or Non-Fiction?

Remote surgery? I dunno...but I recently heard of some robotic surgery. Yet this isn't totally robotic, it's controlled by a surgeon.

[unlawflcombatnt]

86. X-Ray Readings Done Overseas

Some hospitals and X-ray facilities are now having their films read overseas. That puts American radiologists out of work.

Since doctors must be licensed in the state they practice in, these hospitals must have found some loophole in the law to bypass the licensing requirements. Or they got some Corporate lobbyist to get Congress to write a loophole into the laws.

[LiberalEsto]

87. Some accounting firms now send client tax returns overseas

to be completed by low-wage tax preparers.

If only we could outsource the squatter in the White House and his cabinet.

[unlawflcombatnt]

93. Medicine by Video

Since Bill Frist is such a good diagnostician by video, maybe he could teach video medicine to doctors residing in foreign countries, so Americans wouldn't even need to see a doctor in this country.

[Red Knight]

134. Going overseas to hospitals

Many Americans now go to India to get medical procedures done. It's cheaper---tens of thousands cheaper. In fact, some busniseeses are beginning to model their health insurance in a form that encourages people to go to India for this care. It saves them money too.

So in the future you may not even be able to have surgeries performed in the U.S. You may have to hop on a plane and go elsewhere.

This is how our government takes care of us-----free markets will solve everything. The solution may suck though.

[Breeze54]

144. Outsourcing certain essential hospital services is a growing trend.

http://www.medcareers.com/resources/resource.asp?id=1119
Snip-->
Outsourcing certain essential hospital services is a growing trend. According to a study by VHA, Inc., a national healthcare network, and outsourcing consultants Michael F. Corbett & Associates, hospitals are increasingly relying on outsourced services to trim their operational budgets and create more efficient components of healthcare delivery.

According to the study, "The strategy of outsourcing is growing faster in health care organizations than in general industry." Although healthcare organizations have traditionally been slower to recognize the value of outsourcing key services, the pendulum is swinging in the other direction.

As healthcare executives realize the cost benefits of outsourcing, it's predicated that a greater chunk of hospital budgets will be earmarked for such services. The study forecasts: "The portion of budget devoted to full outsourcing will increase by 30 percent in health care, compared to 11 percent growth in general industry."

One vital service that hospitals are increasingly outsourcing is pre-employment background screening of new employees.
Financial liability for acts and misconduct of its employees is becoming one of the most significant areas of exposure for healthcare organizations.
Hospitals are utilizing background checks as a risk-management tool to limit their liability.<--Snip

[primative1]

16. Well, that opens up the whole new topic of ....

... jobs american wont do.
Dont you have the sneaking suspision that when the dust settles that these will be the exact jobs you described?

[mcscajun]

26. Nope. I'm talking the trades primarily.

Unless of course you mean "jobs Americans won't do" rather than Jobs Americans Won't Do. I trust you see the difference? :)

We've already heard of plenty of DUers put out of work in the construction trades by crew owners who use day laborers, perhaps illegals to cut costs (and corners). Yet plumblers and electricians (not their help, the ones with the master designations) still make pretty good livings.

When I speak of healthcare, I'm not talking about nurses aides and orderlies, but jobs requiring more than minimal education and training, yet are still "hands-on". There are already some medical tech jobs being offshored, and that's worrisome (your X-Ray or MRI might be read overseas rather than by the tech down the block, that's one example that's already happening.)

[primative1]

28. Okay ...

I suppose for the time being those trades that require licenses may be safe. But "the trades" is a term that used to also include the likes of carpentry, roofing, masonry ect...
Its really a narrowing field now and the licensing aspect is being corrupted. My father at 80 still holds a masters electrician license (sentimental I guess) and he has to take classes every few years to keep the license alive. He tells me that there are always unlicensed people getting into the class through using some note some bureaucrat produced and thus the license that they never had gets renewed. vwalah ,, instant highly qualified sh*thead.

[blues90]

154. Man ', I don't know

My take on all of this is still a puzzle .

Lets say things keep going as they are which looks like a downhill slide to hell for the blue collar worker . In the US we don't manufacture much of anything any more . What can replace these jobs ? It's fine to say go out and train for something else if the person you are directing to do so is still reasonably young yet . You worked years and honed your skills and now you are told you are useless in so many words . While you were working away for some factory you played a part in the very success of the company but , you are old stock and not needed now so be gone .

It didn't seem likely not long ago because we did not foresee it but now it is white collar jobs that are vanishing , who knew , we did not know that the internet or phone based jobs would be easy to ship out of country and here we are and it did happen . The white collars were not concerned about the blue collars but now suddenly they are all in the same boat with the same holes shot into the hull .

Now with mergers and outsourcing and plants closing down and the population increase , add in the immigrant worker who now is said to do jobs american won't and what have you got left ?

It's all in the hands of a few compared to years ago , few corporations and far too many workers and no new jobs really .

Tell me I'm wrong but I don't see a turn around coming soon if ever . It's gone folks , gone . We would not get these jobs back even if we agreed to work for $2 per hour . What company will bring a job back to the US when it works fine as is where is is now and who can force them to do so ?

Sure some people are doing alright now but how long will this last ? There is not one position that can't be done elsewhere except medical care and building and repair work and maintenance work . And here come in the immigrant workers for alot less cash .

I suppose once the full effect of this is felt over a much larger section of the US population then we will see what the deal finally is . It is when we don't have to read the paper but look out the window and actually see the jobless everywhere that we will know how bad and how late it has become .

I personally don't see how it can end any other way . When enough people die off and they will then the ones left will work on in some mindless position and buy what they can to survive while the people who attained all the wealth will have all they need and will not care anymore than they do now about you or me . It will be the survival of the fit and young and all else be damned .

The mistake people made was to over populate and allow the mindset to buy everything just out on the market which is what allowed this to happen in the first place . Man made the machine and the machine killed man and man helped it happen . Progress is one thing but want is quite another .

Look at GE or black and decker , they were easy to define at one time but now they have their hands in EVERYTHING . I haven't heard the name westinghouse in years .

It reminds me of science class back in grade school in the 50's . In a class film , here you had a small pond with frogs , alot of small ones and some close in size and a rather large one . Day by day one would take the opportunity and swallow one of the others , since frogs are opportunistic feeders like many animals this is what they do . Frogs however make things vanish in an instant . Soon what remained was the one rather large frog , It then moves on to another area of opportunity .

[unlawflcombatnt]

155. Excellent Post

I can appreciate your parallel to frogs. In this case, the only pond that the Corporate American frog has to feed in is the U.S. consumer market. 80-90% of American production is sold to Americans. If Corporate America "eats" all of the Americans who make up their major consumer market, they will die as well. Unlike frogs, there are no other equivalent ponds for them to feed from.

Corporate America needs consumers to sell their products to. If they continue to impoverish American workers and consumers, they'll eliminate their ability to sell their production. The American consumer market is absolutely essential to the survival of Corporate America. No world markets can replace it. If the current course is continued, Corporate America will learn this the hard way. And maybe very soon.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[Raster]

12. Governments in other countries take care of their citizens.

Our government feeds off of theirs. Our government is loyal to the international corporate conglomerates that have only their best interests at heart. Congress has passed bill after bill protecting corporations pockets and their "rights" at the expense of the citizens. And to think, they work for us.:sarcasm:

[lindisfarne]

17. There aren't many countries where the gov't takes care of citizens.

Countries in Western Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia is about it. Of course, given the US's wealth, we should be doing at least as much as these countries do.

[primative1]

19. What wealth ?

Our government may still be tossing the buckos around like Tycoon Willie but the fact is we are the worlds number one debtor nation.

[unlawflcombatnt]

34. Excellent Point

And yet we are still cutting taxes for the wealthiest, and borrowing even more to fund those tax cuts.

[lastliberalintexas]

159. Don't kid yourself

This country still has a great deal of wealth, and government revenues *could* be easily increased by increasing taxes on the wealthy and increasing inheritance taxes on estates subject to that taxation. Whether we have the will or desire to do it is different than whether we have the ability.

[unlawflcombatnt]

160. Yes

We certainly do have the "ability" to increase revenues by eliminating Bush's tax cuts. The "will" certainly is the catch. Unfortunately, those benefiting the most from the tax cuts have bought an inordinate amount of influence and power in Congress. Instead of the one person, one-vote concept, we now have the one-dollar, one-vote policy in our governing bodies.

The will of the people is trumped by the will of the big campaign contributors.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[Raster]

22. I'm sorry. You've left out the Netherlands, Finland, Norway, Sweden

[lindisfarne]

29. Those are "countries of Western Europe". n/t

[unlawflcombatnt]

44. 2/3rds to 3/4ths of World GDP

Along with the U.S., those countries make up 2/3rds to 3/4ths of the world GDP and world's production. So they are the "many" that your refer to.

[Greyhound]

30. Lawyers, they should be lawyers. It is one of the very few growth fields

that still has a chance to make an excellent living, and since our "representatives" are almost all lawyers themselves, it will be one of the last professions to be out/in-sourced.

[primative1]

31. Or prison guards

:(

[Greyhound]

35. Yes, but the pay and conditions suck. n/t

[TheFarseer]

98. get into health care

Great job security. They're making more sick people and more old people all the time. If I had it over to do again, I'd get into health care. Lots of people do really well going to tech school also. Lot's of pseudo engineering jobs that pay pretty well.

[catmother]

109. i was just in fry's supermarket. i was talking to the guy slicing

my ham who said he's still in school working on his RN degree. i told him that's great especially here in phoenix. seems there's a big shortage of nurses.

[femrap]

104. I am beginning to think vocational training is the

place to be....working on HVAC or plumbing....something you have to 'touch.' However, the greedy corps are hiring illegals to do some of that work....especially in Construction.

Physical therapy, nursing....but if your heart ain't into the medical field....why bother?

Sometimes I think we're gonna end up like the old Soviet Union where all the women had to become prostitutes and/or strippers. And now that I look around, there are 'gentlemen' clubs everywhere....even here in Ohio??? WTF is that about?

Tell your children to think very seriously about having children...it's a terrible place to bring newborns into. Isn't that sad?

As the bumper sticker says....'Eat the Rich.'

[catmother]

110. my grandma said that in 1961. that's when my son was born.

grandma said to me "child don't have any more children. the world is not a nice place anymore." well i thought it was pretty great in the 60s so what would grandma say now?

[femrap]

116. I really think young people should think about

this very seriously. Our air, water, food supply, energy sources are being ruined by corporate greed. Our planet is 'full up.'

[catmother]

122. i totally agree but there are young people out there who want

to have children. my 25 year old niece is one of them. she loves kids, works with them. but right now her and her boyfriend are concentrating on their careers and banking as much money as they can.

[Breeze54]

143. That's where I've steered

my youngest son. Electrician.
He attends a regional vocational technical high school.
He's almost finished with his 3rd year.
It'll be pretty hard to outsource his job, I think, once he finds one!
But he'll have to compete for jobs with illegal immigrants, I understand.
I'm hoping he'll be able to get his foot in the door.
His overall goal is to have his own business.

[mcscajun]

11. Tell your kids to become multilingual,

or tell them to get into the trades, or healthcare.

Anything That Can Be Moved, Will Be Moved.

[LiberalEsto]

14. I know an older computer professional

who is in his early 60s who recently took classes to be an ultrasound technician, because there was nothing left for him in computers. He figured a "hands-on" job would work for him

[mcscajun]

27. Hmmm...there's an interesting idea.

I was in IT, now I'm a medical secretary. Ultrasound technician? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm... :)

:think:

[lindisfarne]

18. Trades aren't safe. Neither is health care. We're raising the limits on

number of nurses we can import and H1-B visas can be issued for people in trades, too.

[LiberalEsto]

20. So what is left for us to do?

If all of us become plumbers or electricians or carpenters, it will drive those wages so low that people won't be able to make a decent living at it. Ditto auto mechanics, healthcare techs, etc.

Teaching can be done on-line now, so fewer teachers and college instructors will be needed in the future.

I was a journalist for nearly 30 years, but newspapers have been downsizing for years. Who wants to pay a decent salary to someone in their mid-50s, when they can get someone young and energetic and fresh out of college for $28,000 a year. I ended up becoming a tech/marketing writer.

We should be going to our elected officials and the Democratic Party and demanding to know what plans, if any, they have for creating and keeping middle-class jobs in America.

[The2ndWheel]

59. Jump here and there

Work for a while, watch the job go away, go back to school, work for a while, watch the job go away, go back to school, work for a while...

Not only are there billion of people competing for the right to make someone else wealthy, but like was stated before, there are more efficient machines that can do the job of 10, 20, 100 human beings at a time.

Human beings seem to be more of a problem on the way to "progress" than ever. Not because we're living differently(that's mostly been taken care of, with colonization, empire building, extermination), but because we're just here. We don't really know what to do. We're becoming more and more dependent on technology to simply get through the day. We get sick, we get hurt, we need care. We need to eat, breathe, and sleep. We need water that you can actually drink without filling yourself with chemicals. We're molding society into one(obviously) mono-culture, where diversity is killed, and instead of enjoying the differences we have, it's all about sameness.

What's left for us to do? We could change the way things work. That could get messy though. So we'll probably just go back every Monday to our cubicles.

[unlawflcombatnt]

88. Radiology Reading

X-ray readings are now being sent over the internet and read by doctors in other countries.

[raccoon]

52. Or pet grooming. That seems to be a growing field.

But I believe the pay sucks, unless you own a pet-grooming business.

[LiberalEsto]

54. And if you have allergies you're out of luck n/t

[raccoon]

55. Oh, yeah. If you have allergies, better go into massage therapy.

Several other things I can think of, but none of them are legal.

[unlawflcombatnt]

70. Maybe we can stop it.

If voters will write their Congressional representatives and express enough opposition, and threaten to vote for their opponent, things might be changeable.

Apparently a lot of representatives, both Senatorial and Congressional, are getting their ears bit off by supporting increased immigration and amnesty.

The Democratic candidate in California's 50th District, Francine Busby, will probably lose almost exclusively due to her advocacy of amnesty and guest workers. 33% of Democrats poled in the area like her Republican opponent's position better. And in San Diego, illegal immigration is the issue. The person on the wrong side of this issue will lose.

It's too bad Busby took the side of the Democratic Party elite, instead of her constituents, on this issue. This was a win-able battle for her if she hadn't sold out to the Bush-McCain loving Corporate interests, and their pawns in the open-border lobby.

[wakeme2008]

13. Look around at your big drug chains

I have seen more and more Indian pharmacist working there. Wonder why.... Good paying job.... :grr:

[NativeTexan]

21. Actually.....the truth about the pharmacists seems to be.........

My wife is a Certified Pharmacy Technician and has been for about 12 years now. She worked most of it for Eckerd, and since the purchase, CVS.

For some reason, it is hard to get ANY kind of pharmacist. I am not sure why, but when they can get an Indian, or a Nigerian....as much trouble as it causes the patients in trying to communicate with them....they will TAKE them!

[quickesst]

23. Maybe if....

they were sneaking across the border and taking the computer jobs withour becoming citizens, it would be all right. Hey? Welcome to my laid-off, blue-collar construction working world.:hi: Thanks.
quickesst

[Zodiak]

24. This is the reason that immigration,

not just illegal immigration, resonates with so many Americans.

The pukes opened up a pandora's box that could explode in the ruling class' face.

[Greyhound]

33. The ugly truth...

I won't bore you with my personal tale of woe, suffice it to say I've been there.

The reality is the only way to stop it is for the sheeple to rise up and take back the country. Withdraw from the alphabet soup of various treaties and member organizations that are hurtling us toward the precipice of a "Global Economy". If the US were to unilaterally withdraw from this scheme to enslave the planet, it is still early enough that it will collapse. Nothing short of complete abandonment of this conspiracy will halt our impending enslavement.

America is the only nation that can stop it and if we abrogate our responsibility to our citizens and the "huddled masses yearning" the world over, we will be lost.

A tiny elite that literally run the planet for their own amusement, supported by billions of helpless, hopeless, short-lived surfs. That is our future if we continue to sleep through this next 20 years or so.

[Rene]

36. We won't get anywhere until we have HONEST ELECTIONS

We must turn this administration and every appointee out on the streets. We MUST have an honest Department of Justice who will prosecute some of these corporate crooks. When the Dems take control in '06....they MUST pass a law, by a veto-proof margin that will prevent Bush from pardoning anyone!!!!!!!

[unlawflcombatnt]

42. Right On

We need to get out of every single one of our Free Trade/Free Slave agreements. NAFTA has been a disaster. So has the WTO. CAFTA will ultimately be a disaster. It's all about Corporate America shopping globally for the cheapest labor.

[Deja Q]

37. I've often asked that myself.

What is left for us? MacDonald's? WalMart? How do you live on those salaries? How do you marry, raise children, realize the American dream of owning a home? How do you even afford a visit to the doctor?


I stopped caring.

There's no point in getting depressed over the inevitable.

Okay, I haven't stopped caring. But I've seen the bigger picture and am contented by my fate.

[treestar]

38. There are just not that many H-1Bs in the country - they don't make

up even a signficant minority in the work force.

Anyone who really thinks there job is taken by an H-1B has a remedy under federal law, which is more than you can say with an employer just picking another American to do the job.

The market value of skilled work is determined by the market not by the jobholder's needs to be identified with the middle class or their place of birth. What is the value of the job? If there is someone who will do it for less, that lower amount is the value on the market. It will only go down so low with a skilled job. Though nowadays whole jobs can become obsolete. But Americans always adjusted to that before, one way or another.

The government cannot protect us from competition. Though the immigration laws we have try to do that, the capital just goes abroad to the cheaper labor.

We just have a big sense of entitlement, I guess. The rest of the world is not going to cooperate with that. They don't buy that we are inherently entitled to more, somehow, because we were born here.

After all the luck we have had, we have not saved up enough to be the investors. Or to train at even higher skill levels, which always cuts down the competition. We just sit back and blame the poor bastards who are at the bottom rungs of the ladder.

[unlawflcombatnt]

39. Spoken Like a Corporatist Supply-Sider

And who are you and your Corporatist friends going to sell your goods to when Americans are all making 3rd world wages?

Capital is not going to "go" anywhere unless there are consumers who can buy the production that capital investment facilitates. As consumer income declines from outsourcing and wage suppression from immigration, there will be less opportunities for capital investment, because there will be less consumer income to buy production produced from that capital.

And in case you supply-siders haven't figured this out yet, you don't make any money by producing goods. You only make money when you sell goods. It doesn't do you any good at all to reduce the cost of production of goods if the ability of consumers to buy the goods declines even more.

[frankenforpres]

40. just for clarity to the rest of the forum

when the poster says "Supply side" they are speaking about the original meaning : "Say's law" (supply creates its own demand) whereas now, "supply side" is a quick way of referring to the laffer curve and tax cuts for the rich. it isnt clear that they are the same thing

[unlawflcombatnt]

43. Excellent

Great description and text. Say believed that "supply created demand." That was actually the foundation of classical economics.

Today's supply-siders have concocted a theory using the Laffer curve. But it's really just myth designed to justify tax cuts for the rich. Supposedly increasing capital through tax cuts will increase investment and promote an increase in the "supply" of goods. The hole in the theory is that they pretend "demand" doesn't even exist. The fail to acknowledge that someone needs to buy the increased supply produced by the increased investment. And without wage increases, there is only one way that can happen. By borrowing the money to buy the goods.

Supply-siders have concocted some theoretical way around the necessity of borrowing, but it doesn't ultimately make sense and it has NEVER worked. When supply increases without wage increases, it either won't be sold or it has to be purchased by borrowing. And if the supply is not purchased by some mechanism, investors stop investing to increase the supply, because there are no returns on un-sold goods. So if sufficient demand can't be created through borrowing or increased wages, supply-side theory fails.

Fortunately (I guess) we've been able to maintain the necessary spending (and the demand it creates) through ever increasing amounts of consumer deficit spending. This source of spending and demand, however, have nearly reached their limit. When that limit is reached, our GDP will sink. Without sufficient consumer spending to create the necessary demand, capital will not be invested and our economy will shrink.

The way to prevent this is NOT to provide more supply-side tax cuts to increase the already overabundant amount of investment capital available. The solution is to increase the real spending power of consumers, since the demand side of the equation is tenuous at present. Everything possible should be done to raise wages and the real disposable income of consumers, especially those at the bottom of the income scale. The number one way to do this is to increase the demand of labor in relation to the supply. In general that can be done by limiting the increase in supply of labor. And the number one way to do that is to reduce illegal immigration, as it increases the supply of labor.

Secondarily, we need to increase the demand for American labor by preventing jobs from being shipped overseas. Is it even necessary to mention what needs to be done? We need to get out of every last one of our "free trade" agreements as well as withdrawing from the WTO.

Free Trade agreements have only one purpose. To allow American manufacturers, who've moved their production facilities to foreign countries, to sell their foreign-made products in the U.S. without paying tariffs. Free Trade agreements have nothing to do with "opening markets," other than to open cheap foreign labor markets to American companies.

We can't do much in the immediate future to reduce free trade. The treaties/agreements are already in effect. But we can do plenty to reduce the influx of illegal immigrant labor. That's where we need to start. And this is a battle that has not been decided yet.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

45. I have just fallen in love with you!

Platonically, of course ;)

I am so bookmarking this post. I didn't even know there was a supply side theory that pre-dated Reagan's. And while I loathe the bigotry and xenophobia that always rears up in conjunction with the immigration issue, Americans need to face the cold, hard, facts about how corporatists are shoving so-called free trade down our throats in order to depress our wages and basically screw us over.

[unlawflcombatnt]

135. Thank you

Thank you for your comments, catburgler. I'll add this post to my journal.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[primative1]

48. Unlawflcombatnt ...

You speak like you write from actual experience. I have a question for you. The concept, withdraw from WTO. Love it but ...
Some ponder whether we have already gone to far, whether the ship has already taken on too much water and cant be righted.
If we are to simply abandon these trash trade deals wouldn't corporate america simply jump ship. They basically have both feet in the water already, maybe one toe left onshore. Everyone is either rapidly off-shoring what is left or has already completed "the transition". Where does that lead. Are we in a position to simply shut them out? I wouldn't mind pushing their last toe off the boat and simply starting fresh but does anyone actually see this as something our entrenched washington insiders will ever allow to happen? Once you push them off the boat you also have to exclude the good that they now exclusively produce overseas. Buy American was a concept who's time had come 20 years ago. You can no Ionger find anything american to buy and when you do quality is actually lacking. Our production capacity degrades by the day.

[unlawflcombatnt]

112. WTO withdrawal

Primative1,

Sorry, I missed your post earlier.

WTO withdrawal comes up every several years for a vote in Congress. (I'm not sure what the actual time interval is.) Though it never gets much support, the number favoring withdrawal is increasing. Dennis Kucinich always votes for withdrawal. I think Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul always vote for it as well.

It certainly is a tough sell to most of our Corporate-owned legislators of both parties. I don't think there's enough political will to do it at present. If we have a major economic collapse, however, that may change.

If we suddenly withdrew from all of our trade agreements, there would certainly be a period of adjustment. A small number of items probably wouldn't be available at all. And there would certainly be a period of "adjustment" to producing more of our goods in the United States. However, this is our ace-in-the-hole. Though we currently import most of our manufactured goods, our current capacity utilization is not maximum at the currently "alleged" 80% utilization rate. (I say "alleged" because about a year ago the Bush dictatorship magically changed how it calculates capacity utilization, raising it almost 2%.)

The point here is that we could easily increase our utilization of our current industrial capacity. In addition, we are closer to being "potentially" self-sufficient than any other country in the world. With the exception of a few basic items, such as oil, bauxite, and coffee, we could produce everything we need if we had to. We've done so through most of U.S. history.

We used to produce our own electronic equipment, including computers, in this country. We could still do it if the consumer demand was there and domestic companies weren't undercut by American-owned foreign companies that use cheap labor to produce their products, and then use our "free trade" agreements to avoid paying tariffs on their foreign-produced goods. Obviously tariffs could reverse this problem. However, as you probably suspected, it's American investors who don't want tariffs, just as it is American investors who don't want wage or labor standards in the foreign countries they invest in.

CAFTA is a perfect example of the malfeasance of American investors, as well as the real motivation behind "free trade." It was American interests that opposed labor standards in CAFTA countries, not the countries themselves, because American investors would get reduced returns on their CAFTA-country investments if labor standards were enforced.

My actual personal industrial experience is in the shipbuilding industry. Americans used to build not only most of their own ships, but built them for other countries as well. Unfortunately the shipbuilding industry has essentially died in this country, due to cheaper labor costs in foreign countries. But much, if not most of the facilities to build ships again is still available. It may be necessary to upgrade and repair much of it, but it is far from gone.

When I did work in shipbuilding, the old obsolete "ways," or launching platforms were still present. Along the same lines, I suspect that much of the necessary equipment is still available. In fact, much of the previous ship "building" facilities have simply been switched over to ship "repair". They could easily be converted back to building again. Again, this is my only real personal experience with industrial production, but I suspect it is fairly representative.

We could also make all of our own automobiles, if it was profitable to do so. And if we stopped importing foreign cars, the demand for domestic production would skyrocket. As a result of this new increase in domestic demand for cars, there'd be that much more demand for labor to build them, increasing wages and American ability to buy those cars.

I think the biggest problem is the will of the political elite to withdraw from these "free trade/cheap labor" agreements. There would certainly be some hardship. But far less than most people think. Most of the labor cost savings from outsourcing and employment of illegal immigrants and H1Bs is not passed on to consumers. Only a small fraction of the savings is passed on to consumers with the lion's share going to increasing Corporate profits. The small increase in prices that might occur would be more than offset by the large increase in wages.

The idea that consumers really benefit from cost reductions from cheap foreign labor is a myth. Consumers lose far more in spending power from wage suppression than they gain in price reductions. But the Right-Wing Corporate media has done an excellent job of convincing us otherwise.

If we lose $100 billion in aggregate consumer income from outsourcing, and gain a $50 billion aggregate price reduction as a result, we're coming out behind. And if American international investors passed on the entire savings from a $100 billion labor cost savings, they'd gain nothing in the way of profits. Obviously they don't pass on the entire amount saved in labor costs to American consumers. Which means that Americans clearly lose on the aggregate wage loss/price savings trade off.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[coalition_unwilling]

106. While I agree with much of your analysis, I think a better

way to create aggregate demand is not by restricting immigration (although that will reduce the supply of labor at least in the short term) but instead by massive public-works programs and indexed raises in relevant minimum wage(s).

N.B. Those of you who listened to Al Sharpton's primary campaign in 2004 would have heard a variant of this, as he proposed a massive jobs program building roads, bridges and other infrastructures.

[unlawflcombatnt]

113. Yes, Increase the minimum wage

I certainly agree with raising the minimum wage. A public works program seems like it would be a good idea in New Orleans, as long as it wasn't a "privatized" operation. (i.e., the money doesn't have to go through a Corporate big-wig before it goes to the workers.)

But again, the most effective way to maintain wages is not to allow the labor market to be flooded with workers. Most workers make more than the minimum wage. The main determinant of their wages is the market rate for labor. With 7 million additional illegal workers in the market, the market rate for labor declines.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberalEsto]

50. If one of my husband's ex-co-workers tried the "remedy"

that you mentioned to protect him or herself from losing a job to H1B workers, he or she would be blacklisted in the computer field and never get a decent reference from the company.

Then the issue comes up of how does one pay the mortgage and put food on the table while Mommy or Daddy is struggling to scrape up money to fight the corporation's fancy lawyers? Does one go flip burgers at MickeyDs and lose the house and what equity they may have had?

Be real. There is no "remedy" under the federal law. The corporations have stacked everything in their own favor.

As for numbers of H1B workers, one division of my husband's company's IT department used to be all Americans a few years ago. Now 29 out of 30 are Indian citizens here in special visas, and some of them barely speak English. The remaining one is an Indian-American, probably there so he can communicate with the others.

I am not concerned with their ethnic origin or skin color -- I am concerned that 29 American citizens who studied and worked hard, paid their taxes, obeyed the law and were for the most part trying to raise families, are now experiencing economic hardship. They're having to pay for new education to enter new lines of work, giving up on sending their kids to college, downsizing their futures. Do they still have medical coverage? Will they have to move to a state with cheaper housing.

Multiply those 29 economically displaced Americans by the tens or hundreds of thousands who have lost work in manufacturing, computers, nursing, accounting, engineering, college teaching, construction, and other fields -- and you have a recipe for an unstable nation.

If that's what you want, I hope you have to face getting replaced by a low-wage worker from another country some day. And lose your career, your car, your medical coverage, your pension, your home. Then let's see how you react.

[LiberalEsto]

53. Is 400,000 NEW H1B workers "not too many?"

These 400,000 would be an addition to the tens of thousands of H1B workers already here. That's what the new immigration bill could bring about.

This bill is just what Bill Gates wants -- to replace all the older IT workers who helped build Microsoft into the huge corporation it is today. Toss them out on the street where they will not only face a vanishing job market in their field, but age discrimination if they are over 40.

"The bill under consideration would for all practical purposes increase the H-1B visa cap from 65,000 to 138,000 by allowing for a 20 percent escalator when the number of visas requested by employers reaches 115,000. Another provision in the bill would exempt workers from the cap if they have an advanced degree in science, technology, engineering or math. According to the AFL-CIO Department of Professional Employees the Specter bill under consideration could very well mean 400,000 additional H-1B visas getting issued."

-- from http://www.unionvoice.org/campaign/_H1B


More info from the American Engineering Association:

http://www.aea.org/lobby2004.htm

[GetTheRightVote]

142. Being a programmer, I have seen to many of the H1Bs take jobs from citizen

who needed those jobs. I am sick of the excuses given to Americans when it comes to them losing their jobs/positions so a international could take it from them. American citizens to stop these out right lies from continuing to cycle over and over again. We need to stop the corporation greed from destoring our middle class and its way of life. We deserve the American dream we were taught from our births and they, the corporations, should not be allowed to take it from us due to their greed.

:kick:

[Dan]

41. I remember watching the movie 'Blade Runner'

with Harrison Ford, and I remember seeing the people in the streets, and thinking....this is the future.

[mcscajun]

65. The future is here: It's a Blade Runner world.

All we're missing is the replicants.

[Nimrod2005]

46. Can I have my country back?

I work for a large corporation, we have many Indian IT workers walking around all day, and their numbers are growing, we have closed all but one call center in the US already, all IT work is done by Indians, and pretty soon, many data entry type jobs are going to India.

Close friends of our's, lost their IT jobs to China, got new new jobs, then lost those jobs to India in less than one year, both of husband and wife --- She made $83K, and he made $62K, now she works part time (so that they pay her no benefits) at a toy store, and he works for $15K an hour.

I agree with all your points, we have no country left...

I often weep for my country, I want my America back NOW!!!

[mrgorth]

47. Great post

I'm in IT myself. I truly think there are soultions to these issues like tarrifs and taxing companies that outsource but I'm sure I'd get laughed off as an isolationist in most circles. Also, I want my manufacturing base back.

[LiberalEsto]

51. The real remedy is our votes

We have to educate our fellow voters, get out the vote, make sure the votes are counted fairly, and elect an administration that will make it a priority to take care of Americans and not just corporations.

We also have to find and field and support candidates whose priority is working Americans and restoring the middle class.

[mrgorth]

56. I agree but

the DLC candidates have the money because they suck on the corporate teet. I fear we'll never get a Howard Dean elected because of that.

[LincolnMcGrath]

57. Top Shelf Post K & R

:yourock:

[The2ndWheel]

58. What's America?

Is that some kind of country? What the hell is a China or India?

We live in a world with no borders, except the ones that people still see, even though they're not there. 6.5+ billion people, all competing against each other for the right to wake up in the morning, work for 40 years(or longer, if you're a 5 year old girl in SE Asia), and die.

We're all just expendable consumers. Kings and Queens ruled before there was ever a middle class. The middle class, like America, is temporary.

We humans are in this thing together, but the superhumans(aka, corporations) have us all fighting each other by easily dividing us along race, gender, age, "nationality", etc. They're fucking brilliant.

[LiberalEsto]

63. So, will someone in China or India pay my doctor bills?

Will they kindly put my kids through college for free, just because they are "global citizens?"

Will someone in another country offer me a $60,000 newspaper job just because it's a world without borders?

Will the Indian government give me a pension?

I will believe in a global economy when this world without borders provides a social safety net for all of us.

[sadiesworld]

64. The corporations WANT the destruction of borders...

for the moment they are content with destruction of those borders that keep cheap labor out of industrialized nations. Ultimately, they want the total elimination of borders and the destruction of governments so they can operate without any checks on their power.

[AzDar]

60. Kick.

[treestar]

61. There are 147.4 million people in the US workforce

So you can't blame the H-1Bs for everything. What proportion could they possibly represent?

And they are legal to boot. By law they are paid the prevailing wage, so quit saying they are paid less. That's just false. The employer went through hell and high water to get them here legally. So why would they risk it by paying them less? Makes less sense than the allegations about illegals. At least they make less then minimum wage because no laws protect them. American citizens have to make at least minimum wage or they are working illegally. H-1B employers have to prove they are paying the prevailing wage, not just the minimum wage.

There could be a lot of reasons why individual Americans can't find jobs, but too many H-1Bs is not one of them. If the H-1Bs job is there, the American's job was there too.

[primative1]

62. And the buzzer sounds ...

At GE Schenectady you will find hundreds of "engineers" working for 12 bucks an hour. thats a fact

[PassingFair]

67. True Story:

Went out for a walk with my husband last night.
We ran into a neighbor with a son who's been in
college for 2 years now.

She said he's changing his major. He was in the
Engineering program and that there's NO FUTURE
in it! He's decided to become a college history
prof.

I didn't have the heart to tell her that MY
crystal ball indicates that no one will be
able to AFFORD a college education in 6 years!.

Oh, what a world, what a world!

[frankenforpres]

72. being a history prof is difficult job to get

and low paying


i am in a ph D program for econ, and the job outlook is quite good. however one of my classmate's wife was in the sociology program and starting salaries for them is like $45,000. $45000 isnt chump change, but it isnt great for spending 10 years in college. economics, finance, accounting etc pay well because there are many private sector jobs for these fields. if a school lowballs me, ill go work in industry. if you are history phD, the outside options are NOT that plentiful.

[PassingFair]

75. I guess the $45,000 beats the

ZERO he expects to make as an American engineer.

Just sayin......

[frankenforpres]

77. point taken

if he is going for bucks, history prof is not it.

[PsycheCC]

97. I'll take the word of someone like you who has seen it over someone

who just doesn't want to believe immigration hurts us because it goes against his deeply held views.

[Bridget Burke]

66. What has your husband's Union done about the problem?

If he is not in a Union, perhaps he should join one.

[LiberalEsto]

68. My husband organized a union in a glass factory in NJ

...back in the early 1980s. He was a "Norma Rae." First the put him on swing shifts so he would miss his classes at the community college. They harassed him in lots of ways. They fired him the day before the union was voted in.It took a lot out of him.

Believe me, he supports unions. His cousin works for the Teamsters. I was an officer at my paper's chapter of the NY-NJ Newspaper Guild.

However, computer people in general are not pro-union, and thus difficult to organize. He just doesn't have the strength to try again. If he so much as breathed the word union at his workplace, he would be out on his ass, with no future work in the computer field. At this point we have two kids trying to finish college, a mortgage, and me able to work only part-time due to health problems. We're both over 50, and we would be living on dog food, if that.

[earth mom]

69. Great thread! K & R! eom

[Robert Oak]

71. Senate immigration bill, S.2611 + Skil Bill

In the Senate bill they increased H-1B Visas 60% AND put an automatic escalator of 20% per year in it.

In case Bill Gates, the ITAA doesn't get their labor arbitrage Visas there, they introduced another bill doing the same damn thing.

Meanwhile, the Pascrell Bill sits buried in the house. It would stop the abuses of this Visa and stop it's use as a labor arbitrage Vehicle.

I'm sorry and sad to say, but Democrats Ted Kennedy, Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstein praised the H-1B Visa program on the Senate floor.

This is bad people, we have Democrats doing whatever Bill Gates wants and completely ignoring the facts and abandoning labor.

4 Democrats voted against the bill and Byron Dorgan was the most vocal on using the US immigration system as a labor arbitrage Vehicle.

Seriously, check the votes and WRITE YOUR REPS.

We need solidarity for labor in order to support the middle class, poor and ensure the American dream is attainable and not destroyed.

[unlawflcombatnt]

73. Can I "recommend" your response?

Thanks for posting that. I'd vote for Byron Dorgan for president if he'd run. He's the only true champion of the American worker and the American middle class. The rest are owned by special interests.

[Robert Oak]

74. motivation

We have to get the facts out there. Please cross link info across the blogosphere since this has become a fairly useful tool to obtain information suppressed in major media. Corporate lobbyists have taken over and framed this topic and the real goal is to classify
people as commodities to be traded, WTO, GATS mode 4.

What they want to do is be able to challenge national immigration policy as a "barrier to trade" via the WTO and force migrations of peoples around the globe to whatever cheap labor market they wish.

That my friends is how I got involved in this topic. I saw that and said "slave economics" 100% and there is no worker anywhere in the world who will not suffer by being separated by their sovereign rights as a citizen of a nation state and put under the control of a corporate entity.

The current legislation is not crafted by anyone interested in humanitarian issues to justice to labor economics...it's crafted with this ultimate goal in mind.

[unlawflcombatnt]

79. Pure worker exploitation

The current Senate legislation is being purported as "humanitarian." But the real goal is to amnestisize the employers who have been illegally hiring. It's not about protecting "all of those who are already here." It's about protecting the employers who've illegally hired "all of those who are already here." Worse still, it's designed to further increase the flow of cheaper labor into the country.

[Robert Oak]

80. yes, take corporate lobbyists out

put the amnesty and the conservatives in the room, and I'll bet dollars to donuts they would negotiate a solution in no time.

It's the corporate agenda that is turning this into a roaming name fest plus making sure nothing is actually done.

[unlawflcombatnt]

83. Corporate Mischief

No doubt the Corporate "cheap labor lobby" is pulling most of the strings. Rumor has it that Corporate funding was behind most of the massive May protests.

[ny_liberal]

91. Working class has been sold out to the upper class

The working class, the lower/middle class has been sold out to the higher class once again.

[thumos33]

76. Beautiful post LiberalEsto

well written and painfully accurate.

I'm going with the Vonnegut scenario rater than working Americans being able to vote in any administration that would be allowed to represent our best interests.

Capitalism without strong social programs evolves into a living hell for 95% of the labor force within that economic system. Its getting a lot warmer for all working Americans.

Do you remember the Vonnegut scene where people are riding in this vehicle that they think they are in control of, except that there is no off button...

[Odin2005]

78. In Ancient Rome they brought the slaves to the work...

Now they bring the work to the slaves.

[LiberalEsto]

81. Now they tell the slaves they are overpaid

and consequently worthless.

See this thread about NY Times article that says America's displaced workers are developing health problems:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1323244

[unlawflcombatnt]

82. Good Link

Thanks for the link. That was interesting.

[unlawflcombatnt]

84. Cost & Population Increase Predictions Kept Secret

The Senate Immigration bill would lead to a massive increase in the U.S. population. Much of the information on costs, as well as the dramatic population increase, have been kept from the public.

Wednesday's Washington Post article by Robert Samuelson gives further details. Mr. Samuelson lays much blame on the press for not reporting the actual estimates of the cost of the bill, the doubling of the current rate of immigration, and lack of any economic benefit.

"What You Don't Know About the Immigration Bill

By Robert J. Samuelson
Wednesday, May 31, 2006; A19

You might think that the first question anyone would ask is how much it would actually increase or decrease legal immigration. But no.... the Senate bill would double the legal immigration that would occur during the next two decades from about 20 million (under present law) to about 40 million....

Another dubious argument is that much higher immigration would dramatically improve economic growth. From 2007 to 2016, the Senate bill might increase the economy's growth rate by about 0.1 percentage point annually, the Congressional Budget Office estimates. That's tiny; it's a rounding error....

The doubling of legal immigration under the Senate bill that I cited at the outset comes from a previously unreported estimate made by White House economists....

The White House's projected increases of legal immigration (20 million) are about twice the level of existing illegal immigrants (estimated between 10 million and 12 million)."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/30/AR2006053001181.html

[Trillo]

85. I don't see the Vonnegut

idea of "railing against a future in which average people were put out of work by machines" as failing to have come to pass. "Corporate" is a machine.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

89. I hear your pain, this is why the emigration from US theme keeps coming up

We now live in an imperial state that treats human beings as mere commodities to boost profit-- we're far removed from the Republic that founded us. I've been hearing a very large number of my friends, more than ever before, in this sort of a fix, stuck without any prospect of a decent job in a high-cost area-- in contrast to the European Continent and even to many South American countries, where they actually do have decent job protections and a vision of people as worthwhile individuals.

For those considering emigration to Europe or South America, a useful site: http://www.escapeartist.com/efan/efan.htm

Also http://www.bootsnall.com/guides/06-02/my-escape-from-america-plan.html

http://www.aca.ch/

Start learning a European or Asian language-- French, Spanish, German, also Italian, Portuguese and Dutch probably most useful. And again, as always-- if you do move, you can still vote in the US, so be sure to arrange for absentee ballots!

[unlawflcombatnt]

90. Well Put

I'm not quite ready to move to Europe. Yet. But I've heard worse ideas.

[PsycheCC]

92. This is an AWESOME post! It covers all of the major issues

surrounding immigration, in my opinion. I love the fact that this is your own first-hand knowledge. Thanks! :applause: :woohoo:

[kineneb]

94. another story- from WorldCom to bankruptcy

Hubby worked in IT for WorldCom and was laid off on 1 May 2002. He was never able to find another job in his field. I imagine his job is now done by someone in Bangalore. Don't get me started on my feelings about WorldCom and its management...

We had to sell the house in the SF East Bay and move out to the country. Due to diabetes, his health declined, and he is now on disability due to End Stage Renal Disease (dialysis). In the process, we had spend down all of our assets so he could get state funded health care. Otherwise, he would be dead by now. We went from a decent income and Kaiser health insurance to living in poverty on SSDI, with Medicare/Medi-Cal for health care. To maintain Medi-Cal, our income cannot exceed $1437/month.

Due to medical/moving/misc. debts, we were forced to file for Chapter 7 bankruptcy. With his health care issues, there is no increase in our income to be seen to pay off our debts. Others at the dialysis clinic have had to do the same thing.

If he had been able to stay in the corporate IT world, he might have been able to continue working around his health problems, and have good insurance. But once you are unemployed and ill, no one will hire you, and you are forced to become even poorer to even have the possibility of getting health care.

I can't imagine what to say to the teenagers with whom I work. I really do not see a future for them even as good as I have had. Yet I have to give them encouragement, because to do otherwise would also be wrong. My advice always includes "learn to do something practical" along with their college work, "just in case".

I fear we are headed towards a Perfect Economic Storm, caused by corporate greed, peak oil and climate change. (Unfortunately, I will get to live through most of it, since my family generally lives into their 90s...got about 40 years left.)

on edit-
Oh, and I am fluent in German. Hmmm.

[PsycheCC]

95. This is very sad. After all the personal stories people on DU have

told about how the middle class is losing out on immigration, I can't believe there are still so many here who want to claim it's bad to oppose increased immigration because you're just "blaming the immigrants" as they often say. I say put Americans first and control immigration the same way all other countries do.

[unlawflcombatnt]

96. Perfect Economic Storm

I have to agree with you about the "Perfect Economic Storm." The real consumer income of middle class Americans continues to decline, with spending being propped up exclusively through borrowing. Even as real wages decline, Corporate America still leaves no stone unturned when trying to ratchet them down further.

Corporate America spends millions on lobbying trying to keep labor costs down, either through outsourcing of American jobs to foreign countries to workers who work for less, or by advocacy of unrestricted immigration and unlimited H1B visas. Anything to keep wages low is considered a good thing by Corporate America. But they'll be singing a different tune when Americans no longer have the income to buy their products. It's hard to make profits when you can't sell your production.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

Economic Patriots' Forum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[raccoon]

164. Sorry that happened to you guys.

"I can't imagine what to say to the teenagers with whom I work. I really do not see a future for them even as good as I have had. "

I work with a some twenty-somethings, and I feel the same way about them as you do about the teenagers.

[BigYawn]

99. India is the largest democracy in the WORLD! The stronger it gets

economically and militarily, the better it is for us in the long and short
and intermediate term. India is the real bulwark against islamic fanatics.
They have dealt (successfully) in subduing islamic terrorism which began in
India going back 13 CENTURIES. India has a stable political system with no
dictatorships or military rule. I am very glad to see India emerging as a
economic powerhouse after being in doldrums for 50 years due to experimenting
with socialism since it became free and democratic in 1947. Like China, India
has learned the power of capitalism. China is shedding its communist mentality
and India is shedding its socialistic mentality. This change has mainly come
about because Indians who ventured abroad for jobs and business saw at first
hand the benefits of capitalism. The younger generation of Indians thinks
differently than the old foaggies.

[Douglas Carpenter]

111. only a small minority benefit in India from this new economy

I have seen the same kind of transformation in the Philippines where I have lived part of the year for the past 12 years. There is certainly a boom in the financial sector and a dramatic increase in the conspicuous consumption for the new commercial class. It's actually nicer for me personally in terms of being able to find imported European and North American goods. Meanwhile the old middle class-small business class is collapsing and the 80% poor majority is economically stressed more than ever.

No country with an ever increasing class divide is truly much of a democracy when private power is able to overwhelm the will of the people. A scenario is created where the same policies are carried out under threat of a strike of capital. This means that the same policies prevail no matter who wins the elections - This time democratic means such as trade unions or agitation for legislation are more or less powerless. Thus commercial power rules virtually without restriction over a new-economy class of surfs; the bottom 80% +. I wonder perhaps, this is the future waiting the bottom 80%+ Americans.

Neither India nor the Philippines or any society with these extremes of extremes of class divide which are ever increasing would come even remotely close to a democratic standard on human rights.

"An economy which produces and ever increasing gap between the haves and have-nots is not a successful economy." Amartya Sen --1998 Nobel Laureate in Economics (from India).
_______________

Unrestricted globalization - boon or hazard?

link: http://members.tripod.com/~INDIA_RESOURCE/globalization.html

snip:"But the greatest danger posed by unrestricted globalization is that it may exacerbate the problems of nagging poverty and uneven development, and create grave infra-structural mismatches. It is already evident that the Indian economy has become more dependent on imports which has brought with it constant pressure on the value of the Rupee, leading to recursive bouts of high inflation. And rather than expand India's manufacturing strength and develop new capabilities and technological development in India, globalization may in fact put India at a global disadvantage in key sectors of modern industry leading to an economy that is always chasing scientific and technological advances that occur in other nations. "

snip:"Advocates of globalization have often made the claim that globalization rather than destroy Indian industry would instead accelerate the growth of new industry and cause India's economy to grow faster. But a detailed analysis of Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) in the last few years indicates that a sizable portion of this investment has not gone into the creation of new productive capacities. Much of the investment has simply gone into into takeovers of existing Indian enterprises or toward speculative investments in the Indian stock market. Moreover, other than India's "hot" IT companies and select MNCs - the vast majority of Indian stocks have not benefited from such highly volatile FDI flows"

snip:"Another outcome of globalization has been a huge increase in salaries of senior managers, accountants, lawyers and public-relations personnel working for MNCs or their local competitors. For the IT-literate, job opportunities have been plentiful, and there are also opportunities to live and earn abroad. For the English-speaking upper middle-class, this has come as a boon. With greater access to disposable income, the seduction of consumerism becomes hard to resist, and the demand for unrestricted globalization inevitably follows the attraction for new and ever more advanced consumer goods. This new and more prosperous class of Indian consumers associates India's progress with the availability of the latest automobile models and consumer goods. The local availability of imported European cosmetics and fashions, imported drinks and confectioneries - these have all become important to those who have sufficient disposable income to purchase such items. "

[BigYawn]

115. A small minority in India amounts to millions of people, and why is it not

better for those millions to benefit from a freewheeling
economy since none such beneficiaries existed before?

Listen my friend, ther is nothing wrong with some people
becoming prosperous while others stay behind at the same
poverty level. No one is falling behind, just some are doing
better.

Can you show me a country where everyone is prosperous? I can show
you countries where all people are equal in material wealth,
for example N. Korea, Cuba, China (before they discovered capitalism),
and N. Vietnam. They all do have a ruling class of insiders but vast
majority are poor by comparison to other countries. These countries do
have fairness. Everyone gets health care. Everyone can buy cheap bread.
But I will bet my bottom dollar, not many people from free capitalistic
economies such as Japan, S. Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and even Philippines
would be willing to trade places with the "fairer" countries.

Yes, India & Philippines do have unfair distribution of wealth.
But atleast one has a shot at improving. People in "fairer" countries
have none. Socialism has failed in every country it has been tried in.

[Douglas Carpenter]

117. at the cost of ripping apart much of the social fabric of the society

I don't believe I said anything in support of the authoritarian communist model.

The vast majority of jobs created in the "new economy" are very low paying even by local standards. Most garments workers in the Philippines for example make between one and two dollars a day. And these are almost always temporary jobs.

The traditional farmer cannot compete anymore and frequently ends up being dispossessed from their land. But still the "new economy" by its nature creates staggering inflation in the most basic commodities for survival.

The small business person is overwhelmed. Even the hope for those in the bottom 80% to enter the business class or even purchase property is rarely even possible anymore.

But yes it creates a prosperity for the few.

The dogma of neoliberal economics is just as much an ideology divorced from reality as Marxist-Leninism ever was. And just like Marxist-Leninism; it doesn't work except for the privileged few. If the Thomas Friedmans of the world would ever took a walk around the corner from their five-star hotels they would know that.

BTW I was once-for awhile an apologist for "free trade" myself believing that it represented the only alternative. I even made an attempt at the business myself. Until it became clear to me that there was no way to succeed at this game without engaging in draconian and Dickisonian levels of abuse and exploitation.

I would not deny that there are some benefits. But the harm so out ways the benefits. I could either believe Thomas Friedman or I could believe my own eyes. I chose my own eyes.

I would also like to point out that the successful examples you mentioned; Japan, South Korea, Taiwan or Singapore; did not create their improved living standards for the majority by "free trade". The policies they practiced were highly protectionist with massive state subsidy and intervention. This would be completely forbidden under current rules.

[Cascadian]

100. By the time Bush is finished, there won't be any middle class left.

The Neocons have always had this plan to eliminate the middle class and sadly, they are winning. These Republicans want a society that is totally controlled by the wealthy few and the masses can go screw themselves. They have always seen the middle class as a aberration. Now they want to get rid of it once and for all. I am going to school this September and I want to have a certification for web page design which pays pretty well but I do think I will be able to get such a job if the Bushites keep this up. I am seriously considering leaving the country to find work if this happens. There will be nothing but poverty and the rich. Nothing else and if you try to cross in their way, you will be crushed. It is not the kind of life I want.




John

[BigYawn]

101. I won't miss the middle class when it disappears....

Every job I had so far was by a "rich" person or corporation.
And I need the "lower" class to do my yard work, garbage collection,
painting jobs, and pick fruits & veggies for the farmers. The "middle"
class does nothing for me. Who the hell needs them!

[PsycheCC]

102. Since economists widely state that consumer spending is 2/3's of

what drives the U.S. economy, your rich corporation needs the middle class to buy its products and services. Without the middle class, this economy will grind to a halt, and your corporate employer will have to outsource your job to India to cut costs. But hey, you could always do other people's yard work.

[BigYawn]

103. Hey what's wrong with yard work? It is actually good for your health..

I don't get enough exercise as it is. And all these Mexican
restaurant workers are providing me with too many cheap meals LOL.

Seriously, you should stop worrying about outsourcing. The US economy
is having record sales and profits. Unemployment is setting new records
on the lower side. What is not to like? So a few computer programmers
lose jobs to India, big deal. Makes products cheaper for everyone else.

[unlawflcombatnt]

105. You're support of American workers is Underwhelming

Your lack of concern for the American worker and the American middle class is obvious. It appears you'd like to see wages depressed as possible.

Best estimates are that 2-3 million jobs have been lost to outsourcing. In addition to that, 7 million American jobs are taken by illegal immigrants. So that's a change in jobs to workers balance of 10 million. With 144 million Americans working, this causes a major suppression of American wages. (See: Total Employment) Is wage suppression what you're really advocating?

You're right about Corporate America experiencing record profits. That's largely due to suppression of wages and labor costs by outsourcing and importing of cheap foreign labor. The increase in supply of labor in relation to jobs suppresses wages by itself. The fact that illegal immigrants and H1Bs will accept lower wages suppresses wages still further.

Record Sales? Retail Sales actually declined in April, from $366 billion in March to $355 billion in April. Below is a partial copy of the Retail Sales figures from the United States Census Bureau.



Worse still, consumer spending has exceeded consumer income for 4 straight quarters. That means that consumer spending and "Sales" are being increasingly financed by borrowed money. This not sustainable.

Unemployment setting "record" lows? Completely wrong, and very wrong. The actual percentage was much lower at various times during the Clinton administration. (See Unemployment Furthermore, the number of those classified as "unemployed" has been falsely lowered by the Bush administration by falsely reclassifying 3.5 million truly unemployed workers as "not in labor force." With the inclusion of these workers back into the total number of unemployed workers, the total would be 10.7 million, which would be a record high.

The number of working age Americans who are not working is at record highs. 84 million of the 228 million working age Americans are not working. That certainly is a record. See Total Working Age Population.

"A few computer programmers losing their jobs" makes prices slightly lower, at the expense of drastically lowering aggregate worker and consumer income. The bulk of this "savings" goes into Corporate profits, not into lowering the price of consumer goods.

How are you going to increase your profits if the ability of American consumers to buy goods declines? Don't you have to sell your products to make a profit? If consumer income declines, consumer purchasing ability will also decline. If consumer sales declines, Corporate sales revenue will decline, and the ability to make profits will decline.

Who are you going to sell production to when American income is too low to purchase it?

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[BigYawn]

114. You are seeing a boogeyman when there is none.....

The US treasury received record revenues from tax payers in 2005.
Hardly a sign of a dying economy. And please never forget, in the
end every corporation is owned by individuals. The share holders
(in the millions) are benefitting, and employees (again millions)
are the benefators.

You can not create prosperity by artificially blocking competition.
When foreign goods are imported it benefits every person in the country
because we are all consumers. Ditto for imported workers. If minimum wage
was increased to $20/hour, you can forget about affording a visit to a
restaurant, forget going to store to buy merchandize since it will cost
3 times as much. So if there are fewer buyers, there is no need for
employees. Why do you think all the manufacturing in Chicago escaped to
the southern states? Because Chicago had artificially high union wage
structures. Good jobs disappeared not only for union workers but all the
non-union workers also.

Do you know that a record number of new businesses were started by WOMEN
in 2005? Do you also know that personal income is at highest level ever?

My whole point is trade barriers, competition barriers, wage & price
controls....all have been tried and have proved to be dismal failures
in creating general prosperity.

[unlawflcombatnt]

129. Corporatist Hypocrisy in the Extreme

"You can not create prosperity by artificially blocking competition."

Interesting that you should say that. Every day Corporate America does its level best
to 'artificially block competition.' Corporations lobby for huge subsidies from taxpayers to prop up their poorly run businesses that would otherwise lose in the "competition" to remain profitable. Lobbyists in Congress constantly beg for more taxpayer-funded subsidies, more protection, and no-bid contracts. Such activities epitomize "artificially blocking competition."

And what, exactly, is a patent for? It's to "artificially" eliminate any competition on a new product. Many of these, such as Pharmaceutical patents, are extended for decades.
Isn't this "artificially blocking competition"?

What about Corporate mergers? When 2 companies merge to increase their market control, it's a prime example of "artificially blocking competition." The malignant growth of merger activity by Corporate America has largely eliminated any "competition" in many markets. And this activity is exactly the kind that free market libertarian Adam Smith warned against, saying it should be prevented by the government. But despite all of their rantings about "competition," Right-Wing Corporatists approve of merger-related anti-competitive activity. It boosts their profits. To them, it's only "anti-competitive" when it reduces profits.

How about the Medicare Prescription Drug Giveaway to Pharmaceutical companies? The government is forbidden from negotiating prices. Isn't this "artificially blocking competition."? This is flagrant Corporate Welfare for the Pharmaceutical Cartel. Corporate America loves using mergers to increase its own market control on consumers. But let the government try to use its market clout to force Corporate America to competitively bid for their Corporate Welfare,
and Right-Wingers pitch a hissy fit.

Regarding your original claim that limiting immigration is "artificially blocking competition," that too is completely false. In fact, it's exactly the opposite. American business should compete fairly on the open market for American workers. This is perfectly reasonable, considering American businesses are located in the United States, are protected by the United States government and its laws, use American taxpayer-funded infrastructure, use American-taxpayer insured banks for accounts and loans, and make their profits off sales to American taxpayers. Again, it's completely reasonable that American business should be forced to bid "competitively" for American workers on wages. Their labor pool is rightfully limited to American workers whose money they depend on for survival.

Corporate America and American business couldn't survive without the consumer market created by American workers. Nor could they survive without the roads, transportation system, guaranteed loans, stable money supply, legal system, and law enforcement protection that is paid for by American taxpayers.

There is nothing "competitive" about Corporate America being allowed to bypass the American labor market, and the market price for labor, and hire illegal workers. In fact, allowing them to bypass the American labor market is "artificially blocking competition." As it stands now, when Corporate America doesn't want to pay "competitive" wages, they illegally, and "artificially" bypass labor competition and hire illegal workers for less-than-competitive wages.

This "artificially blocking competition" nonsense is pure Right-Wing Corporatist hypocrisy. Big Business and Corporate America have never wanted a "competitive" market. They want a Corporate-controlled, monopolistic, non-competitive market. They're simply lying to the public when they claim otherwise.


unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[BigYawn]

131. You are missing my whole point....my 3 points are...

1. I am against ALL SUBSIDIES by the govt using taxpayer dollars,
and corporate subsidies are the most insidious use of taxpayer dollars.

2. US corporations are doing just great, thank you. So your doom and gloom
scenario is absurd.

3. US individuals are doing just great, thank you. Just go study tax receipts
by the US Treasury. Note that taxes are paid only because income was present.

So, forget about trade barriers, artificially propped up wages including
minimum wage, union wage or any kind of mandated wage structure. Same for
limiting immigrant workers who will work their ass off such the guy who
did my landscaping for 1/3 rd the nearest bid by spoiled American citizens.

[raccoon]

167. What!!!!

"3. US individuals are doing just great, thank you."

Maybe the upper quintile...maybe even the upper two.

[raccoon]

166. Is that an average?

"Do you also know that personal income is at highest level ever?"

AVERAGES are very misleading.

If Bill Gates walks into a bar, the average worth of each person in the bar jumps to several billion.

[PsycheCC]

132. Ok, I'll waste a few more minutes talking to someone who doesn't listen.

The record profits you site are largely due to a one time huge repatriation of dollars from overseas by big corporations who were given a HUGE cut in the normal tax rate if they brought those profits back last year. This is fact, admitted by the Bush number crunchers themselves.

Unemployment IS NOT LOW. It is actually much higher than it was during the Clinton administration. Some people estimate it is more like 7.5%, rather than the currently reported about 4.6%. This is because the Bushies calculate the labor force participation rate far differently than Clinton did. They literally eliminate about 3.5 million people from the equation, claiming that they don't matter because they aren't seeking work.

This economy is highly dysfunctional. Paul Krugman, economist for The NY Times, says we make money by selling houses to each other! When consumers run out of home equity to borrow from, spending will fall off quickly, and your boom will be a bust.

Your attitude of "I've got mine, the immigrants can do my grunt work, and screw the middle class" is sickening. Do you have any friends?

[raccoon]

165. For starters, it doesn't pay jack squat.

"Hey what's wrong with yard work?"

Another thing, it's one thing to do it when you're 20-something; 20-30 years down the road, will you still be able to do it?

[blues90]

107. It is another slash across an artery .

I would imagine to spill more blood .

Corporations used to do fine before they started outsourcing all the jobs . What the hell was bush the idiot talking about when he leaped out on stage and said jobs for the 21st century and high tech jobs . Then they beam in with nonsense telling the older now obsolete generation who learned and earned and did a good job for many years that now they need to learn a new skill , doing what ?

There are millions of young people out there looking for these same few jobs and they have the training already , so my chance of some company feeling sorry for my fate of getting old and becoming obsolete is going to bring a tear to their eyes and a second chance , not a chance ! It can be said in a way that the older generation has less of a chance than the youth and the youth will take less pay since they have no pile of bills and the older generation has less chance than the illegal immigrant for the very same reason .

If we could predict the future then perhaps many older workers would have played it safe and bought nothing but many did and in doing so supported the very companies who are now selling our jobs to the lowest bidder .

I do know by not buying we can hurt some corps but they are global now so their raking in comes from the cheap labor and the global consumer , do they need us , I am beginning to doubt it .

China can sell their cheap products at wal-mart and to other countries who still have a working force consisting of their own citizens .

What do we manufacture in the US today beside pollution , fast food and illness to support the medical industrial complex . We sure the hell are great comsumers however , we know how to buy everything .

[catmother]

108. i totally understand what you are saying. my husband has been

with an international computer company for 37 years. the only reason he still has a job is because of a talent he learned early in his career. not too many people have this knowledge. these guys my husband's age are near retirement.

he tells me stories every day about the people from india -- those that are here and those that are working in india. the company charges it's customers close to $300.00 an hour for my husband's skills. if they can get someone from india to do the work they charge the customer $50.00 an hour. so the customers are saying "we want the indians". now these people from india are quite intelligent. education is free there and some of the people have multiple degrees and they are getting paid maybe $10-15 an hour in this country, and probably much less in india.

and yes, the executives are making their ridiculous salaries and benefits. so americans are losing their jobs, indians are being exploited.

we thank god that my husband is at the end of his career because the future looks very dim.

i fear for what is going to happen to this country if this continues. i know one bank stopped outsourcing because the customers were complaining. i know that i have a problem understanding these people when i have to deal with them. i have to keep saying "speak slowly, i can't understand you".

[question everything]

119. This is why I don't understand why so many DUers support the illegal

immigrants.

Yes, most of them are unskilled labor, but they do end up pushing wages down for people in construction work, for example.

Look what is happening in New Orleans now. Contractors employ illegals and pay them below minimum wage - this is our tax money.

And this is not true that "Americans do not want to do these jobs." Pay decent wages and you will see that Americans will.

What I don't understand, also, is how the economy is booming. Everyone is talking about record air passengers, restaurants are full, people are "shopping" - thus, apparently, people somehow do find money to buy, say, flat screen TV..

This is why I think it is a mistake to concentrate on impeaching Bush and immediate withdrawal from Iraq as our platform to take back Congress. These issues are distant for most voters. But job security and health care cost and retirement are real and immediate.

[Tsiyu]

120. If Capitalists want to sell capitalism

they need to do a much better job with their pitch.

"But we must protect corporations. They create JOBS!" used to be the mantra.

Now, simply stating that some folks need to be greedy and make a bejillion dollars is their sole pitch for capitalism. Great.

Now, if we're on a level playing field, where I as an employer can negotiate a decent wage, have protected rights, and where I as a consumer can collect damages if a corp is negligent, awesome.

But that playing field is gone. Repukes have declared greed and gluttony are the sole reasons to support and sustain unfettered capitalism. Merely making a small percentage of AMericans rich is the goal! And we should all just go along for the ride because that is, well, American! No matter who gets hurt!


Do these fools not read history? Do they not see that many gluttons ended up chewed up by the people they oppressed?

There will come a tipping point, when Americans will see the light, and the fat cats better watch out.

I am set up to live poorly. I saw this coming when ** was selected in 2000. That's the onmly way I can make it. I really feel sorry for folks who did not anticipate the current Age of the Robber Baron

[PsycheCC]

124. Love this post! Wish I could give it a vote for greatest page.

Maybe think about posting it as it's own thread?

[Tsiyu]

125. I can add it to my journal

and thank you so much for your vote of confidence! :hi:

[PsycheCC]

126. You're so right about needing to be able to live cheaply.

It seems to me we're in the final stages before the revolution. The Robber Barons see it coming and are just pillaging the last of the nation's wealth, planning to get theirs and get out before the populace turns on them. They aren't even trying to "save" an American way of life so they can continue to profit from it as they have in the past. The MASSIVE redistribution of wealth and TOTAL disregard for the health of the middle class signals their intent to just let it all fall to pieces, hoping they can time their exit well enough that they don't lose their heads to the masses. Maybe the Bushies will find a home with their Saudi buddies? Reminds me of the French Revolution.

[Tsiyu]

127. I think the key to surviving this new economy will be to seek out

those with wealth to spare and appeal to something they need and can afford.

Fine arts, crafts, handmade stuff is way back in fashion because so much merchandise out there is cheap mass-produced crap.

You just have to find a niche. And work locally, develop local alliances with other businesses to barter and cross-promote and bulk buy.

There are strategies to survive that can be attempted now. Just gotta stick your finger in the air and read the wind.

We're doing a co-op garden. I helped plant tow rows of corn, a row of black beans and staked 35 tomato plants on Wednesday. In return for helping, I'll get some of the veggies and we'll make a lot of group meals and can some.

Come on people now, smile on your brother, and all that rot....:)

[PsycheCC]

128. Maybe I should brush up on my needle craft skills. I hope it doesn't

come to that. :) In my crowded corner of Southern CA, I'm afraid yummy, home grown tomatoes are out...

[unlawflcombatnt]

130. Monopolistic Capitalism vs. Free Enterprise Capitalism

I couldn't agree with you more. Today's alleged "capitalists" have NO interest in free enterprise. They want exclusive control of the markets and they favor as many "big government" protections as they can get.

Today's Corporatocracy is the complete antithesis of the "free enterprise" capitalism Adam Smith envisioned. Smith favored government action to maintain free enterprise by preventing mergers, monopolies, and oligopolies. He believed the government should truly promote competition among businesses, instead of trying to eliminate it like the Bush dictatorship.

Today's alleged "capitalists" have no more interest in "free markets" than Joseph Stalin. They want controlled markets where they face no competition. They want to expand the role of government to protect American business and Corporate America from all legal liability. They want to protect them from the very same legal liability that individuals and small businesses are still subject to.

A perfect example is the field of Medicine. It's illegal to sue an insurance company or HMO for the medical decisions they make. But it's perfectly legal to sue a doctor or a nurse for their medical decisions. Worse still, it's perfectly legal to sue a doctor for the medical decisions made by an HMO. Needless to say, this kind of legal arrangement allows insurance companies and HMOs to make all cost-cutting medical decisions with complete immunity from prosecution. If they did not have such immunity, they'd have to consider the "cost" of losing a malpractice suit. (And if that were the case, HMO's would let doctors make all medical decisions, to keep from being held medically liable themselves.)

The same is now true in a lot of other industries, due to class-action law suit limitations. Corporate America can now make all decisions based on cost, with no concern about product liability, or liability for false advertising. They could always do as they pleased unless someone sued them. Now they have less worry about being sued by large groups of consumers. This frees them to make even more outrageously dishonest advertisements, as well as faulty (and dangerous) products.

Corporatists and Right-Wingers need to stop barfing up their worn-out mantra about
disliking "big government." Big Government has been their salvation under the Bush dictatorship. Most laws on the books are designed to protect business, not consumers.

A perfect case in point is the Senate's Comprehensive Immigration/Amnesty bill. It's not about protecting exploited illegal immigrants.
It's about protecting the poor law-breaking employers of illegal immigrants.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[Tsiyu]

133. Excellent commentary

I have no issue with free market capitalism as long as it is truly 'free.'

Today we have CEOs who simply cannot comprehend why employees would want to make a living wage. They expect labor to just be happy to have a job, even if that job won't cover poverty level necessities.

Where is the "incentive" for the worker? There is none. That's not a free market. That's nearly slavery, or serfdom.

Likewise, a free market means you are free to pay if you screw up. As you mentioned, corporations, HMOs and insurance co's are basically Robber Barons, able to pillage and destroy and steal and loot and neglect responsibility - even when lives are at stake - with complete government support.

That's not a free market. That's a black market.

Given the current economic realities, laissez-faire is anything BUT fair.

[unlawflcombatnt]

150. Controlled Market

Now, if we're on a level playing field, where I as an employer can negotiate a decent wage, have protected rights, and where I as a consumer can collect damages if a corp is negligent, awesome.

You've delineated the hypocrisy shown by today's Corporatists, who masquerade as "free market" capitalists. Today's American Corporatocracy has no more interest in "free" markets than Joseph Stalin or Chairman Mao. They hate competition, and constantly lobby to have any competition removed. They don't want to have to compete for workers and pay the "free market" labor rate. So they export their jobs or import cheaper labor, often illegally.

Meanwhile for all of their "private enterprise" diatribe, they spend billions lobbying Congress to get even more taxpayer-funded handouts. They are the biggest "Welfare State" proponents in U.S. history. However, their focus is on a "Corporate Welfare" state, not one including social welfare. They advocate reverse Robin Hood policies: 'take from the poor and give to the rich.'

Allowing them to import lower-wage labor and flood the U.S. labor market with workers greatly assists them with their reverse Robin Hood endeavor. Granting amnesty to all illegal immigrants, and the employers who illegally hired them, assists them still further.


unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[alvarezadams]

121. It's probably bad netiquette...

but I'm trying to elicit a debate on a new economic ideology for the left on another thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2670306#2670929

[catmother]

123. this is a great post. yesterday after i commented i told my

husband about it. he said "great. people have to know what's going on". we've seen it for years, but not everyone realizes what's happening.

[sadiesworld]

136. .

:kick:

[halobeam]

137. Excellent topic....

kickin' too..

[Sapere aude]

138. We need to change the business model. When ever I read about happenings

like this I aways feel that most of us expect this to be the case an there is nothing we can do about it.

I think that the future does not have to be about the disappearance of the middle class. If we were united instead of divided as a nation we could work together and create the type of country were the needs of the people came first.

You take your average freeper. His/her life is pretty much like ours if they are middle class or lower. The things that hurt us also hurt them. What divides us is the paradigm in which we view each other. We see them as stupid knuckle dragging Neanderthals and they see us as communists who want to destroy their country.

If the large majority of Americans would work together on our common economic issues we could have a revolution in the government were the needs of people came before the needs of the corporations.

We have the power but I am afraid that we will never exercise it.

[SeaNap05]

139. Middle Class Suffer

The middle class suffers the most on hiring immigrants for all types of jobs whether low-skilled to professional positions

[Breeze54]

145. I don't agree.

It's the lower-level educated people that are suffering the most!

~~~~~~~~~~~

Center for Immigration Studies
http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/back206.html

Dropping Out
Immigrant Entry and Native Exit
From the Labor Market, 2000-2005

March 2006
By Steven A. Camarota

• There is some direct evidence that immigration has harmed less-educated natives;
states with the largest increase in immigrants also saw larger declines in natives working;
and in occupational categories that received the most new immigrants,
native unemployment averages 10 percent.

• While most natives are more educated, and don’t face competition from less-educated
immigrants, detailed analysis of 473 separate occupations shows that 17 million
less-educated adult natives work in occupations with a high concentrations of immigrants.

• Some of the occupations most impacted by immigration include maids, construction
laborers, dishwashers, janitors, painters, cabbies, grounds keepers, and meat/poultry
workers.
The overwhelming majority of workers in these occupations are native-born.

• The workers themselves are not the only thing to consider; nearly half of American
children (under 18) are dependent on a less-educated worker, and 71 percent of children
of the native-born working poor depend on a worker with a high school degree or less.

• Native-born teenagers (15 to 17) also saw their labor force participation fall —
from 30 percent in 2000 to 24 percent in 2005.

• Wage data show little evidence of a labor shortage. Wage growth for less-educated
natives has generally lagged behind wage increases for more educated workers.

A national unemployment rate of 5 percent is irrelevant to the current debate over
illegal immigration because illegals are overwhelmingly employed in only a few
occupations, done mostly by workers with only a high school degree or less.
In these high-illegal occupations, native unemployment averages 10 percent —
twice the national average.
Moreover,
the unemployment rate does not consider the growing percentage of less-educated
workers who are not even looking for work and have left the labor market altogether.
It would be an oversimplification to assume that each job taken by an immigrant is a job
lost by a native.

What is clear is that the last five years have seen a record level of immigration.

At the same time, the unemployment rate of less-educated natives has remained high
and the share that have left the labor force altogether has grown significantly.

Wage growth has also generally been weak.

Thus it is very hard to see any evidence of a labor shortage that could justify allowing
illegal aliens to stay or to admit more as guestworkers.
Rather,
the available evidence suggests that immigration may be adversely impacting less-educated natives.
The statistical findings of this study are consistent with other research that has looked at
the pattern of immigrant job gains and native loses in recent years.1


Employment of the Less-Educated - Declining Native Employment.
Table 1 examines the labor force status of adult natives and immigrant workers in the United States.
The top of the table shows that the number of adult natives (age 18 to 64)
holding a job has grown by only 303,000 between March 2000 and March 2005,
while the number of adult immigrant workers holding a job increased 2.9 million.
Put a different way,
the total net increase in employment among adult workers was 3.2 million,
but only 9 percent of the net increase went to natives.



more at link....

[NVMojo]

140. ...and this is what the immigration issue should really be about ...

not fighting against people who want to work our minimum wage jobs.

[lindisfarne]

147. There are plenty of American citizens who work jobs which pay less

than 20% above their state's minimum wage.

Statistics (such as Bureau of Labor) which say 2.5% of American workers earn the federal minimum wage are misleading. All someone has to do is earn 5 cents (or even 1 cent) above federal minimum wage and they're not included in this figure. Also not included is all the people who live in states which have a minimum wage above the federal minimum wage. CA, which has 1/8 of the US population, has a higher minimum wage. So do WA and OR. There are plenty of other states, too.

A more accurate statistic would be the percentage of American workers who less than 20% above their state's minimum wage. Or even better yet, pick some year in the 1970s, take the minimum wage for that year, adjust it for inflation, and give a percentage of American workers who earn less than 20% above that adjusted minimum wage. (Adjusted for inflation, minimum wage in the late 1960's had the highest buying power; it's been dropping ever since, and dropped precipitously from the early 1980s on.)

[GetTheRightVote]

141. I am one of those programmers, & it is corporate greed which is

destoring the working class and its wages. They want a lower slave class so they must destory the middle working class to get it. When will we realize that we must stand up to them before we can no longer feed our children, buy homes, drive a good enough car to work ?? Where are our congress people while these actions are taken ?? How do we in our everyday lives make the needed changes ?? And is it to late ??

:kick:

[PsycheCC]

151. I hear you. How do we get legislators to vote the will of their

constituents when they need the good will of their corporate donors more than that of their voters? Paper ballots, better paper trails on voting, campaign finance reform, lobbying reform...all of these would help, but how do you accomplish any of it when the current system is completely designed to maintain the status quo? The gerrymandering that makes safe seats is clearly not in the interests of voters. The whole thing is pretty discouraging. I'm afraid this may be one of those situations that has to get a lot worse before anyone decides change is needed.

[depakid]

146. But wait- that's LEGAL immigration!

The anti-Mexican and Central American crowd takes great pains to tell us they support that!

[gulfcoastliberal]

148. At this point it fels like college was the wrong choice.

Should've just gotten right into a high payng trade like plumbing.

[unlawflcombatnt]

149. Bump

Excellent post. More people should read it.

:kick:

[hiphopnation]

156. It's so short-sighted.

I'm no economist, so talking about I may open myself up to all sorts of ridicule for my lack of understanding how the economy works. But, it's a consumerist economy - that is to say, these corporations that we serve SERVE US, in the end. They're making widgets for us to buy. The question is, what happens when we can longer afford to buy the widgets because the jobs that we are forced to work won't allow for any frills in the budget, only the very basics. It just seems like a very short-sighted approach to working culture to not take care of your potential clients (that is, corporate america not taking care of americans by providing solvent livelihoods so that we can continue buying their widgets). I'm sure that I have just laughably over-simplified a problem that is orders of magnitude more complex, but it seems to me that the business community has a vested interest in seeing a thriving middle-class because it ultimately means people are buying more. Again, no economist here. Someone please correct my woefully misinformed self.

Thanks for the great post, btw. This is something that I think about often, the seemingly fragile nature of our economy and how it might just come crashing down any day. It scares me. :scared:

[unlawflcombatnt]

161. You're absolutely right

Hiphopnation23,

You're absolutely right on the money with what you're saying. Corporate America needs consumers to buy their products. Those consumers need to have the means to buy products. That means is provided by their wages. If wages go down, so do the "means" to buy production.

Wages are reduced when the demand for labor declines, or the supply of labor increases. Importing labor decreases wages by increasing the supply. As a result, it reduces the aggregate amount of money consumers have to purchase American production. The result is that less production is sold, and less sales income for Corporate America. The ultimate limit to Corporate profits is how much production they can sell. And how much they can sell is absolutely limited by the amount of money consumers (and workers) have to spend.

Again, you are 100% correct. It only takes an "economist" to concoct some story to refute the obvious truth you've just stated.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."

[HughBeaumont]

157. You shouldn't appease the "What'ya got against capitalism" argument.

What we have is NOT capitalism that's semi-benevolent to all peoples. What we have is unbridled corporatism that translates to legalized THEFT, enabled by the Simian Oligarchy holding the White House hostage. It's no longer enough for businesses to make a profit. Their business plan, long term and short term, only includes one group of people and one philosophy - the Upper Echelon and what can be done to make them HAPPY. Workers and their concerns are no longer addressed or cared for; having been reduced to mere moving obstacles, a means to an end, not location sensitive and certainly advantageous to be as cheap as humanly possible.

The topic of job offshoring is a particularly sensitive one to me. I stick people on ignore for two reasons - unwarranted flaming and support of this crapola, anti-worker practice. I've seen too many lives, families and professions ruined (particularly my father's and co-workers') to even consider any other part of this issue, and it's only going to get worse as corporations continue to strangle everyone for their needs. I can't believe that there are so-called progressives who buy into this asshole mantra of "a rising tide lifts all boats" and play the "xenophobia" card from the bottom of the deck when you disagree with this short-term pillaging. This isn't about hatred of anyone; Indians are simply embracing the opportunity given to them by our companies. It's not about "exploring emerging markets", it's about dumping the American middle class for cheaper, exploitable labor.

"The US should WELCOME competition"???? It's not competition when Indian workers are always going to be cheaper. It's not competition when you're giving them the R&D future that we should be getting our hands on. It's not competition because we don't MAKE anything HERE anymore. It's not competition because they're already getting the jump on sciences such as nano- and Bio-technology while were trying to destroy science to believe a story and appease a bunch of toupeed wackjobs with crosses. It's not competition when you enable corporations to displace thousands of American workers either by offshoring or inshoring via tax breaks and loopholes. It's not competition when you have nothing on the near or far horizon to replace the outgoing jobs.

What it IS, however, is the destruction of the American middle class, exactly as the well-monied Robber Baron Republican'ts want it. Offshoring helps NO one but the rich and drives down wages in every job they can ship over or bring here. "Everyone in their station and have the good sense to STAY there." A fearful, low paid, divided and powerless middle class is an OBEDIENT middle class.

Companies aren't even addressing the issue or treating it as serious, nor is anyone in our government or corporations providing the much-needed assistance for fired workers to re-assimilate back in the work force. It's just slash and "good luck" while the suits buy another yacht, and the number of white-collar professions immune from this practice is dwindling every year. Yap yap about "lower prices", but have the prices REALLY gone down on anything that's made with quality? I haven't noticed it. There are several things I would like to have but can't because I simply cannot afford them. The American worker keeps way less than ever because everything costs more, and the quality of our lives have plunged thanks to longer hours and fear. How good do we really have it when it's accepted practice to assume the new MINIMUM retirement age is 65?

Witness the distribution of Linux laptops to Third World countries via the OLPC (One Laptop Per Child) initiative. First off, why aren't these companies offering OUR children this luxury? Oh that's right, because since it costs way too damned much to live here, the American worker has too high an asking price. They're creating the next wave of offshore beneficiaries now and they're not fooling ANYone.

Come to Northeast Ohio and the ghost-towns that litter it sometime and look at the cost. Go to any of the small towns in America that used to thrive, but now have boarded up weed-infested everything. Look at all the vacant office space in most mid-market cities and tell me how "progressive" it is that this dickhead presidope and the corporations he enables care more about the events and markets of countries that start with an "I" than they do our own.

[blues90]

162. The clouds are rolling in

I read all the replies posted here , it seems the thing we need to manufacture the most in some kind of hope .

I have been reduced , down-sized , strip-mined right out of hope . It think hallmark cards now leave that word off all their poetic attempts on cardboard .

I have nothing against immigrants working but I do when there are no jobs . I don't blame them completely , I do wonder how they expect support . If I took a job in another country I don't think I would ask for or expect support .

I don't have any choice but to take one of those jobs americans don't want , not anymore . And let me tell you these are not easy to come by .

I don't have much faith that there is a single job other than perhaps health care or contraction that can't be outsourced along with car repair and home repair . items to large to be shipped away and returned . However there is nothing to stop the labor from coming in to do this now is there ?

Also most everything that has to do with these said careers , things needed in order to perform them or have them are for the most part manufactured somewhere other than the USA . Even a lot of the parts that make up the hospital building one may work in .

With all the people out looking for work and those that already have two of three jobs plus the jobs their family members retain take up a good amount of the promised position . These people are the pioneers of the multi-job family , the first ones hit with down-sizing or other forms of lost income . Here we are looking for the scraps in the garbage can of jobs . This is how I see it .

The only solution I see is to shrink you life to fit into a small shack with minimal decor and ride it out looking through the one window you could afford to install glass . Sell off what you have while there is someone who can still afford to buy it and hold on to what you've got left .

[unlawflcombatnt]

163. Sad, but not too far off

I agree with your sentiment. And the last thing in the world this country needs, while it is losing jobs, is more workers to take the remaining jobs. Our labor supply is excessive. Our job supply is not.

unlawflcombatnt

EconomicPopulistCommentary

EconomicPatriotForum

___________
The economy needs balance between the "means of production" & "means of consumption."