A Belated WWII Criticism

[Don1]

Can someone tell me the difference between Veteran's Day and Memorial Day? Do we have a Peace Day? I must have missed it somewhere between Arbor's Day and St Winsel's Day.

In WWI we fought the Germans and won. In WWII we fought the Germans and won again. If we really won the first time, then why did we have to fight them again? Perhaps, it is because there is a difference between winning the right way and winning the wrong way.

Did the US go to war against Germany in WWII for economic reasons or for humanitarian? Could it be both? Perhaps, some people signed up for the right reasons and the war could never have sustained itself had they not.

That Greatest Generation that is so idealized on Memorial Day was really kind of grey. Setting the economic conditions for Hitler's rise to power was wrong. Freeing people from concentration camps was right. Using that heroic event later, glorifying it multiple times each year is just nationalism.

Support the Troops. Yeah, bring them home, stop killing them, stop glorifying them and using them for political and economic purposes. When they get home and they have PTS, don't kick them to the curb. Social spending is good.

[rwenos]

1. Scads of Oversimplifications

I don't know much about WW1, so I'll let that alone.

1. However, to ask "if we really won the first time, then why did we have to fight them again?" is to ignore the rise of Fascism, a political force which did not exist in 1914 when WW1 broke out. Fascism, a political theory espousing strong central authority, a planned economy, militarism and the primacy of the State over the individual, had swept Italy, Germany, Spain and was strong in France and Central Europe.

Also, Fascism arose as a response to the anti-monarchist revolution, and then the Bolshevik revolution in Russia.

Thus, to ask that question is to ignore the great political forces which arose after WW1.

2. That the Allied conflict with Germany, Italy and Japan (the latter two of which you leave out) arose from BOTH economic and humanitarian reasons is so obvious it need not be answered. Also, the Germans attacked Poland, a country England and France had pledged to protect. Then, after Hitler conquered France he turned on England, and, eventually, America. Then Hitler made the classic mistake of invading Russia.

Thus, you ask questions of breathtaking scope, with scads of assumptions behind them, and without apparent foundation or framing. What on earth are you getting at?

[Don1]

9. Not really an oversimplification

"1. However, to ask "if we really won the first time, then why did we have to fight them again?" is to ignore the rise of Fascism, a political force which did not exist in 1914 when WW1 broke out. Fascism, a political theory espousing strong central authority, a planned economy, militarism and the primacy of the State over the individual, had swept Italy, Germany, Spain and was strong in France and Central Europe."

Actually, the rise of fascism as you call it was the point. The victory conditions of the first war are what caused the second war. I made that clear in several places.

[tn-guy]

14. another point to ponder

WWII, at least the Allies vs. Germany part, was one of the most preventable wars ever fought.

Germany did invade Poland which the UK and France had treaty obligations to protect, but prior to that Germany had annexed Austria, re-militarized the Saar region and gobbled up a large portion of Czechoslovakia, all of which ran afoul of one treaty obligation or another.

I know this will be an unpalatable truth for many here at DU but one reason WWII was so bloody was that activists for "peace" were so successful in the inter-war years. Advocates for "peace" were able to severely restrict defense expenditures in both France and the UK to the point that neither nation was really equipped to pose a credible deterrent to Hitler when he began intimidating and swallowing weaker nations. Calls for appeasement and negotiations rather than action resulted in nothing except contempt and bolder aggression by both Hitler and Mussolini.

Much of the blood spilled in Europe during WWII is on the hands of the 1930's peace activists.

[slor]

2. "Setting the economic conditions for Hitler's rise ..."

That was done by the victors of WWI, the "Greatest Generation" was the WW2 set.

[Robeson]

3. "Did the US go to war against Germany in WWII for economic reasons...

...or for humanitarian?"

Technically speaking, we went to war with Germany, because they declared war on us.

[RoyGBiv]

4. Where to begin ...

I actually don't know where to begin with this. "Oversimplification" doesn't even cover it.

So, I'll just simplify myself.

The difference between Memorial Day and Veterans Day, officially anyway, is that Memorial Day commemorates those who have died in military service while Veterans Day commemorates those who have served in the military. Memorial Day, in its larger sense, has a tradition, especially in the South, that pre-dates its function to commemorate those who have fallen in war. Many people view Memorial Day as a time to honor all of those who have gone before us, to remember our ancestors. This is the tradition in my family, for example, and has been for countless generations. It's the day we go and clean our relatives' graves, set flowers and other mementos, then gather for a feast bigger than Thanksgiving and share good memories. It's actually the only time I can get along with most of my family members.

And if you want to get into the history of Memorial Day, it has roots in a hope and/or celebration of peace. Arguably the first modern Memorial Day was celebrated by former slaves in Charleston, SC after the end of the Civil War. They commemorated Union soldiers who had died at the prison camp where their memorial took place, but at the same time they were celebrating their freedom and ability to offer this gesture. Prior to this, mothers and wives and widows especially were involved in Memorial Day activities that drew attention to the tragedy that was war and sought to end it.

The allied powers won WWI and lost the peace, in no small part due to economic demands France and England placed on Germany in the aftermath. That's not saying the US had nothing to do with, just that a lot of blame is out there to be distributed. Further, global economic collapse worsened conditions and provided conditions ripe for the rise of fascism. Anti-Semitism, another moving factor in the sociology and politics of the day, was more of a French and Russian thing than a purely German one, but Germans gladly embraced it while seeking their many scapegoats.

The proximate reason the US went to war with Germany was because Germany declared war on the US. Regardless, it would be extremely difficult, imo, to argue doing so was the wrong thing to do. Despite the causes, Germany and its allies had to be stopped.

The economic conditions weren't set by the so-called "Greatest Generation." It inherited conditions that had been brewing since the late 19th century, before that generation was even born.

[JohnKleeb]

5. Japan, a German ally attacked us

We declared war on Japan and Germany than declared war on us. It really wasn't for economic or humanitarian reasons but it was what any country would have done.

[Charlie Brown]

6. nt

[bobbieinok]

7. some have claimed WWI + WWII are 2 parts of the same war

WWII was partly created by the conditions imposed on Germany in 1918 by the victors

edited to add

--see the various distinct phases of the 30 years war (1618-1648)

--and what about the 100 years war between England and France???

[mrgorth]

11. This is correct

however, it is important to add that the greatest generation did not create those conditions. The OP is insulting in his oversimplified insinuations.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. Memorial day was set after the civil war

to remember those who died defending the Constituion... yet it has morphed into something else... and when people go, happy memorial day... I am befuddled.

Veterans Day has morphed from armistice day, it was a terrible war, and the 11-11-11 is celebrated also in Europe, to a day we thank the veterans.

Neither should be a day for celebrations, and for warriors who have come home, they are somber days.

Yep, my husband is a retired sailor.

[treestar]

10. Interesting, some people do celebrate Armistices and the like

But in the US we love war, so we celebrate war, using the actual troops as the excuse.

Trying to make 911 into some sort of holiday - yeah, right, let's celebrate being victimized.

Great idea. :sarcasm:

[Igel]

13. Or we honor service and

mourn our dead.

Which is what the days in question ostensibly do, and used to do when I was a kid.

Now Veteran's Day is trivial, mostly a banking day, and Memorial Day is an excuse for going out of town. So instead of honoring military service and sacrifice, we honor ourselves.

Sort of an apt metaphor for America's evolution over the last 60 years.

[1932]

12. John Meynard Keynes predicted WWII would happen based on the way the

world imposed sanctions on Germany after WWI (it created a fertile ground for a society that would embrace fascist imperialism)

Keynes was a smart person and I suspect he was right.

Incidentally, my opinion is that, although WWI was essentially a battle over shipping lanes, it did represent a fight over opposing political philosophies. France and Britain were nascent democracies representing working people for the first times in their histories and they were battling a feudal system that oppressed working people. Had France and the allies not won, it probably would have set back democracy (the real kind that represents the interests of the people rather than of concentrated wealth) a couple decades.

[killerbush]

15. Simple, it's called the "Treaty of Versallies".

That damned treaty was too harsh on the German's and they responded with Hitler.