Let's cut through the SH*T : 'Illegal immigrants' and USA voting

[Sam Odom]

Should undocumented workers (Illegal immigrants) who pay city, county, state & federal taxes (most do via sale taxes... etc.) have the right to vote, even if only in local matters?

[liberaliraqvet26]

1. No.

Why do we have undocumented workers here anyway? Americans need jobs and fair wages.

[tsuki]

8. Because we have illegal employers. Thom Hartmann wants to

reframe the issue. Change the debate from illegal workers to illegal employers.

[Burma Jones]

2. Nope

Immigrants following the letter of the law do not get to vote until they have become citizens, why should those not adhering to the law be allowed to vote?

If paying taxes is the sole requirement, then, if I pay higher taxes than you, should I not have more votes than you?

Local matters have probably the highest impact on one's day to day life, and thus I believe should not be minimized......

[Sam Odom]

9. Local matters

Many undocumented workers have kids in the school system and many think they should have a say by voting in their local school board races.

[El Fuego]

12. Many childless people think they shouldn't be taxed to pay for schools

Which is to say, having a vested interest in an issue simply because you have kids doesn't mean a thing.

[Sam Odom]

14. Proposition F : Noncitizen Voting in School Board Elections

http://www.smartvoter.org/2004/11/02/ca/sf/meas/F/

[El Fuego]

21. It lost, but it would have been challenged in court if it had won.

You can't opt-out of the responsibilities of citizenship because you're childless, you can't "opt-in" just because you have kids.

[Sam Odom]

23. 48.55% Voted "YES"

Just wondering :

How many of that 48.55% were not citizens?

[1932]

18. Many childless couples realize that their social security checks will

really come from the tax on the labours of future generations and want an educated functioning society.

Mabye others know explicitly or intuitively about the lessons we learn about "collapsed" societies. Jarred Diamond's book Collapse talks about how socieities that had no recorded history or couldn't pass learning down from generation to generation were often unaware of historical fluctuations in climates. So, they'd build up an agricultural system that was suitable for one climate, the climate would change slightly, and almost everyone would starve until they learned new survival skills, despite the fact that they once were able to cope with an indentical climate in the past.

I think most Americans and most people want society to keep working and not collapse and cause misery to people you may or may not be directly related to.

And that's why it's important that people vote for schools. And that's why it's important that residents who use public services like schools be allowed to vote to protect these institutions. We need them to offset the greedy, stupid votes.

[El Fuego]

24. U.S. citizens aren't allowed to vote in jurisdictions where they are not

residents. For example, I can't vote in a state where I do not reside simply because I have a personal interest in the outcome. It's like saying I (a Fl voter)should be able to vote in Delaware just because I own stock in a Delaware company, and there's an election which could influence the value of my stock. It doesn't work that way.

[1932]

34. But residence and not "state nationality" is enough for state and local

governments to not question your committment to the state. You don't have to be born in CA or take some citizenship test to vote for the governor, senators, or anyone else.

[1932]

13. This is a big issue in SF. I saw a story about a school where almost

all the students were the children of Russian and E.Asian immigrants (many of whom weren't even illegal, they were just non-citizens).

Their school was falling apart because most of the members of the community who directly benefitted from good schools couldn't vote in local elections.

I can't believe anyone would think that's a good outcome for democracy.

The fact is everyone indirectly benefits from good schools and, thank god, people who directly benefit take up these issues and force elected representatives to be responsive to their needs. They're carrying the flag forward while all the lazy, uninformed voters who benefit from their efforts and sit on the sidelines. It's not good for America when we shut those people out of the political process completely.

For so many politicians and boards who have to be responsive to the needs of residents in their communities, RESIDENCE should be the only requirement for voting.

[Burma Jones]

17. And many citizens do not believe these kids should even be in school

I, for the record, am not one of them.

My county (Montgomery, MD) has a large undocumented population as well as a huge number of grad school/professional school grads. We pay the money to educate all children because we are not stupid and know ignorance is far more expensive than schooling. Time after time, the small minority of Right Wingers here put property tax restrictions on the ballot and time after time they lose, about 70% to 30%. Parents can make a bigger impact by showing up to a School Board meeting than by voting.....

I define stupid as the state in which you stop trying to learn anything.....

[1932]

20. ...and often the students suffering ARE US citizens and we need them to

be educated and to maximize their potential.

As I implied in my last post, anyone who wonders why we invest in education and in transferring knowledge as well as the skills for develop new learning form generation to generation should read Collapse by Jaren Diamond.

In societies where people only knew about things that happened during their lifetime, they would often die out with any slight change to their environment that required a new approach (even if that approach was something that they knew about decades earlier and which was lost to later generations)

[El Fuego]

32. How are the students "suffering"?

Many children of all backgrounds have special educational needs. Many other children who would otherwise excel are hindered in school because the needs of the problem students take up all the resources. Why should the children of illegal immigrants be given special treatment over the others?

I don't think this desire to vote for school board members is about the needs of the children at all. This is about advancing a particular political agenda. The fundies want creationism taught, so what do they do? They infiltrate the school boards. It's the same thing.

[1932]

35. Why should American children of non-citizens have to get an inferior edu-

cation?

Your second paragraph is so far from the reality of the story I saw on TV about these parents I don't think it's even worth commenting on.

[El Fuego]

38. But why would it be inferior? They're getting the same education

as the children with American citizen parents.

They're not segregated, you know. That era is over.

[1932]

39. Because a tiny fraction of the people who live in the school district

(and usually retired white people -- so they're not even contributing to the tax base, and they probably don't like their new neighbors) get to control the government. Do you think they're voting for people who have the best interests of the majority of residents in mind?

Sound familiar?

We fought a war with England to end that sort of thing; "taxation without representation" sound familiar?

[El Fuego]

42. You're calling for a revolution to overthrow Americans?

You're saying only a "tiny fraction" of the people in the area are American citizens, and they're just old white people anyway, so the non-American majority needs to rise up against the tyranny of the tiny minority of American citizens who are voting legally in THEIR OWN country?

Just wanted to know if I heard that right.

[1932]

45. By turning the table like that, I'll assume you don't have an argument any

longer.

You know that's not what I was saying. But it's all you have.

[Joanne98]

3. NO!

[Sam Odom]

4. For those saying "NO"

How then do we, the people, preserve the integrity of citizen only voting?

Is federal/state voter ID for all elections the 1st step?

[sybylla]

19. The way we always have

Well equipped poll workers, proper voter registration requirements and prosecution of those who violate the voting laws.

The pukes tried to make a big stink over "voter fraud" in the 2004 election in Milwaukee, claiming people who weren't supposed to vote there did. They combed the voting records for the election, the registration records, did internet searches of suspect voters and came up with a list of probably a dozen voters, all citizens, who they said shouldn't have voted. Guess how many voted illegally, upon further investigation by the District Attorney? One, and he was charged with a crime.

The legal immigrants I know are much more concerned with not breaking the law for fear of deportation before they could get their citizenship. I doubt they have any interest in voting illegaly.

Seems to me an illegal immigrant would want to keep his or her head even lower - if working here is such a good deal for them.

"Citizen only voting" needs no more protection than it's had for decades, than it has right now. The only reason pukes are trying to make an issue out of this is so that they can enact tougher voting regulations that will keep all but the wealthiest and most diehard from voting.

[Sam Odom]

29. But...

It's a bigger 'political' issue now than then.

IMHO, Bilbray won the US 50th with his hardline position.

[sybylla]

47. I disagree - zenophobia's run our immigration policy more often than not

and has always influenced our elections in our weaker moments. That doesn't make it right.

Until someone can come up with hard evidence demonstrating that the kind of voter fraud you're talking about is taking place in large numbers all over the country, we have no reason to change the way we're doing things. Disenfranchising legitimate voters because of fearmongering is morally wrong.

It's only a big issue because the pukes say it is and just because they say it's so, doesn't mean they have a clue.

[Stinky The Clown]

5. No - and no matter where you stand on the larger issue, on this point ....

..... only citizens have the right to vote. A green card is not a license to vote. Certainly no one here without one should vote.

[fasttense]

6. No, if they had the right to vote they then would be citizens and not

illegal immigrants. It's one of the things they give up when they decide to come here illegally or stay past their visas. But I do hope they vote in their own countries.

[1932]

7. US citizenship wasn't a prerequisite for voting until about 100 year ago.

It was a reaction to the influx of working class immigrants who had ideas about democracy that were different from those of the class a very wealthy people who were rising so far above everyone else during that period.

I think it's important that the people who live in a community have the right to vote about issues that effect that community.

Although I can understand wanting to make sure that, say, the President (or anyone who makes foreign policy) should be elected by citizens, I think democracy would work much better if people effected by domestic policy got to vote for the people who make the laws that influence their lives.

[sybylla]

22. And the prerequisite before that was owning land

If that was the only prerequisite now, the Chinese (who some report are buying up large parts of our country) could be in charge of our government.

There have always been hoops to jump through at the polls. There have always been people in the US who didn't have a say in their government nor in selection of their representatives.

I have land-holding immigrant ancestors who voted for more than 30 years under the old rules. They no doubt elected the representatives who changed the requirement for voting from landholding to being a citizen. And the minute it changed, they went to the courthouse and completed the paperwork to become citizens. They thought it was important. So do I.

I'm proud that, as a country, we have done a fine job of distilling the requirements down to something so basic - citizenship.

[lynne]

27. Voters also had to be Male and White 100 years ago -

- I agree, we have done a fine job of distilling the requirements down to basic citizenship. If something is worth voting for, then just get yourself legal so you can vote!

[1932]

36. They added citizenship for the same reasons they wanted to keep race and

gender as a requirement: to maintain power for powerful.

Just because xenophobia worked to hold back some working people while women and non-whites got a break (which took another 100 years to really mean something) doesn't mean it should be embraced.

[sybylla]

46. That might have been true for an "immigrant" nation

In 1900, a huge percentage of Americans were foreign born, especially in the new states and along the frontier, making citizenship a powerplay intended to disenfranchise everyone but the WASP's on the east coast. That's not the case anymore and for a power play it must have been pretty short-lived. It would only be effective until the immigrants got their citizenship - which generally meant a bit of paperwork and an oath at the courthouse.

[lynne]

48. To maintain power for the powerful?

The only person that a voting American citizen is more powerful than is another American citizen that does not vote. The person responsible for that power-grab is the citizen that chooses not to vote when they rightfully can.

The difference between the women and blacks that weren't allowed to vote 100 years ago vs. the illegal immigrants that are not allowed to vote today is that the women and the blacks were citizens of the US at that time.

If illegal immigrants want power they need to walk up to the bar, get themselves legal, become citizens and then exercise their right to vote. If they choose not to do that, they have no one to blame but themselves.

[El Fuego]

10. Of course not.

[1932]

11. In Europe, IIUC, any European citizen can vote in the local EU elections,

regardless of whether they're citizens of that country. It's like a NY'er moving to CA and voting for a CA senator.

Residence is what matters, despite the fact that, in Europe, a French person could vote for Britain's representative to the EU legislative body.

[sybylla]

15. If documented workers can't, why should illegals?

There's a reason only citizens can vote. Can you imagine what Abramoff and Reed would do if illegals can vote. They'd be bringing busloads of them in from Mexico to influence elections - which is why they are afraid of letting it happen. They think we'd do it too. Not to mention the fact that any country who wanted to effect our elections could by sending an army of voters.

Goodness, imagine what the worst of the communist leaders would have done if that were possible. There was already so much McCarthyistic suspicion of ones neighbors who were citizens.

Come in legally, slog through the paperwork and prove to us the US matters enough to you to do it, and then we'll let you vote. Heck, it wasn't that long ago that most of us wouldn't have been allowed to vote - unless you owned land and had a penis you were out of luck.

[rocktivity]

16. No

And of course, they shouldn't be working, either.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Warren Stupidity]

25. No. Lets document them legalize them and then they can vote. nt.

[lynne]

26. No -

- if you're not a legal citizen of the US then you're not a legal citizen of the state, county or city where you are illegally residing.

Many have become legal citizens so that they could vote. Why is it all of a sudden a problem to become legal? Just get busy and get it done.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. NO

And I came here legally and went through the process...

Now lets cut through the shit and fine the employers, shall we

[Imajika]

30. No

[nam78_two]

31. No

Its a basic fairness issue. If people who came here legally and have been completely abiding all US laws as well as paying taxes etc., do not get to vote, its certainly unfair for illegals to do so.
And having absolutely no process for people to go through before becoming citizens of any country is insane imo.

Like some poster said up above, Rove, Santorum etc. would probably start kidnapping people from developing countries & bringing them in by the truckload....well ok maybe not that exactly. But, my main point is it would just become so much easier to bend laws and skew election results etc.

-R

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[1932]

37. Taxation without represenation, anyone?

In some communities, 90% of the tax base is made up by non-citizens who use 90% of the public services, yet 10% of the population gets to vote for the people who make the decisions?

People are cool with that?

[Zhade]

40. I'm not. I think, if we take their taxes, they get a vote.

So either stop taking their taxes, or let them vote, IMHO.

[1932]

41. I say citizenship should only be a requirement for national elections,

since those are the only politicians who deal with foreign relationis. For all other elections, residence should be enough.

[lynne]

49. How would clerks, etc. know who to tax and who not to tax?

Wouldn't they need to tell the sales clerk "I'm here illegally and can't vote so I don't need to pay the city and state tax on this hamburger?" They would need to identify themselves for that to work.

Is the flip side of the no-tax coin that illegals will not use any public resources since they're not paying taxes? They certainly get services for the taxes they do pay. If they want more, they need to get legal.

[Greyhound]

43. Absolutely not, to even propose it is absurd. n/t

[robinlynne]

44. no. edited to add more below

remember in the entire world, illegal immigrants are deported. in every country. everywhere. you want to give away the right to vote without citizen ship? i lived in Brazil fro 20 years, married to a Brazilian, grteen card, paid taxes I didn't get the right to vote there. only citizens vote.

[Vinca]

50. Of course not. Do you suppose if I show up at the polls in

Mexico or Canada they'll let me vote? I seriously doubt it.

[MGD]

51. No, nor should they be included in the census in any way shape or form. nt