23% of Us are Fucked

[Vyan]

Tonight former Nixon White House Counsel John Dean discussed his intriguing new book "Conservatives without Consciences" as the lead story on Keith Olbermann. In it he described how his discussions with the late Barry Goldwater, the nominal father of the modern conservative movement, evolved from talking about just how far afield that movement has grown to a discussion of how authoritarianism has crept in and taken over the Republican Party.

Sparked by Goldwater, Dean continued to research on the subject with various scholars looking into the psychology of authorianism and found a wealth of information on the subject.

Acording to his findings, a vast majority of Conservatives are drawn into the Leader/Follower archetype, where the Leaders are considered infallable, and the loyalty of the Followers is completely unshakable. About "23% of the populace falls into the follower category" said Dean. "These people are impervious" to fact, rationality and reality. And their "Numbers are growing".

Let's just face it, 23% of us are basically fucked in the head.

I'm looking forward to reading Dean's book in full, but just the glimmers presented on Olbermann were both shocking and at the same time, quite familiar. We've seen this story before in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. There is always the patsy, the scapegoat - the one true source of all of societies ills. In those societies it was the jews or those greedy imperialist Americans.

Now, it's the Liberals.

Liberals and all the other societal hangers-on and scum they try to protect. Gays who insist on the "special" right of marrying the consenting adult of their choice. Uppity Women in the workplace, who won't remember their place in the kitchen and bedroom.  Blacks who want hand-outs in order to jump to the head of the line, immigrants who simply can't seem to wait their turn to be exploited for ridiculously low wages and lack of health-care.  And lastly weak-kneed bleeding hearts who think dirty terrorist slime deserve the equal protection of the laws.  Hmph.

Also tonight while Olbermann was speaking with Dean on the issue of just how close to full-on Totalitarianism this country is gradually tipping - Bill O'Reilly was speaking with two Fox's heavily fact-challenged Military Analysts, Gen. McInerny and Col David Hunt who proclaimed that both Bob Herbert of the NY Times and California Senator Barbara Boxer were "blatantly lying about our troops in Iraq". Herbert had written an Op-ed which indicated that Neo-Nazi's and Skinhead have begun infiltrating the Military, while Boxer had stated that incidents of PTSD have increased in our Military and that incidents of soldiers taking anti-depressents being sent into combat have increased, as have the number of suicides among our troops.

Unfortunately for O'Reilly, McInerny and Hunt the source of the Neo-Nazi and Skinhead has been the Military itself as documented by the Southern Poverty Law Center via the New York Times.

July 7, 2006 -- Before the U.S. military made Matt Buschbacher a Navy SEAL, he made himself a soldier of the Fourth Reich.

Before Forrest Fogarty attended Military Police counter-insurgency training school, he attended Nazi skinhead festivals as lead singer for the hate rock band Attack.

 

And before Army engineer Jon Fain joined the invasion of Iraq to fight the War on Terror, the neo-Nazi National Alliance member fantasized about fighting a war on Jews.

 

"Ever since my youth -- when I watched WWII footage and saw how well-disciplined and sharply dressed the German forces were -- I have wanted to be a soldier," Fain said in a Winter 2004 interview with the National Alliance magazine Resistance. "Joining the American military was as close as I could get."

 

And the source of the anti-depressant and suicide story is also problematic for O'Reilly and his cohorts since it's also the military via ABC News.

The Hartford Courant, citing records obtained under the federal Freedom of Information Act and more than 100 interviews of families and military personnel, reported numerous cases in which the military failed to follow its own regulations in screening, treating and evacuating mentally unfit troops from Iraq.

Twenty-two U.S. troops committed suicide in Iraq last year, accounting for nearly one in five of all non-combat deaths and the highest suicide rate since the war started, the newspaper said.

Some service members who committed suicide in 2004 and 2005 were kept on duty despite clear signs of mental distress, sometimes after being prescribed antidepressants with little or no mental health counseling or monitoring, the Courant reported. Those findings conflict with regulations adopted last year by the Army that caution against the use of antidepressants for "extended deployments."

   

"I can't imagine something more irresponsible than putting a soldier suffering from stress on (antidepressants), when you know these drugs can cause people to become suicidal and homicidal," said Vera Sharav, president of the Alliance for Human Research Protection, a New York-based advocacy group. "You're creating chemically activated time bombs."  

To O'Rielly, this is all just defeatist talk designed to undermine the morale and willpower of our troops. To him, it's ridiculous to point out that our troops morale is already in the shitter - because then you'd have to actually do something about it. To Hunt, "This is the finest fighting force America has ever had, over 2/3rd of our troops are re-enlisting and our National Guard are gaining invaluable field experience and expertise". One wonders just what they might plan to do with that expertise in the future?

According to O'Reilly the killing of 25 civilians in Haditha is just a "random" occurance - it's just the way "War if fought" - sometimes civilians get hurt and somethings "War Crimes Happen". O'Reilly has yet to either apologize or set the record straight for his Malmedy misnomer - where he tried to white-wash Haditha by claiming that U.S. Soldiers in WWII murdered unarmed SS Soldiers even though the truth is that the U.S. Soldiers where the ones unarmed and murdered in cold blood.

And although he has spent incredible level of energy promoting Jessica's Law in an apparent effort to protect children from sexual predators, he's said precious little about the rape and murder of 15-year-old Iraqi girl, and her entire family.

To O'Reilly everyone is a liar.

 "I can't base my opinion" about the Iraq war "on anything" other than "what my military analysts, people paid by Fox News, say to me." O'Reilly added that he could trust only Fox military analysts because "he newspapers ... all have an agenda" and "only give you a snapshot of the war."

How's this for a snapshot.

Iraq in Turmoil

More soldiers charged with murder and Nic Robertson reports on the violence that is sweeping through Iraq.

Video -WMP Video -QT

Well over a hundred civilian casualties today...

Other authoritarian boot-lickers like Fred Barnes continue the drum beat of happy talk.

THERE'S JOY at the White House again and less anxiety among Republicans in Congress. The excesses of the press and Supreme Court are bringing Bush and rebellious conservatives closer together. Iraq is better off. The American economy is humming. The White House has made no harmful missteps. And the president's job approval rating is rising.

The war is unpopular, but it has nonetheless helped the Bush recovery in three ways. First, the killing of the terrorist Zarqawi and the formation of a permanent Iraqi government were encouraging developments. Second, the president punctuated his support for the new government with a surprise visit to Iraq, and he's gone on the offensive again in speeches defending his policy. On July 4, he told soldiers at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, he won't allow the death of 2,527 troops in Iraq "to be in vain by pulling out before the job is done." Third, Democrats have fumbled the Iraq issue.

The point here is that these people have no serious interest in fact or reality. As Lt. Col Karen Kwaitkoski stated - neo-cons "have a collective contempt for fact".  Facts get in the way of all their big plans.  Simply pointing out the failures of few soldiers is somehow attacking everyone in the military - and rather than addressing these problems, the authoritarian neo-cons would prefer that we just shut-up about them.  Silence is Golden, in their world.  And anyone who breaks the silence and spoils the Happy Talk Parade, deserves to be savaged and shown no mercy. Cue right-wing attack-bitch Mann Coulter.

And 23% of us are their willing partners in their flights of fancy.  23% of us not only don't question all the nonesense they spew, they welcome it.  They desperately want to believe the New York Times simply hates America, that's why it's so desperate to "hurt our troops".  The idea that a lack of armor, proper helmets, health care cuts, drinking contaminated water and being sent into a War zone based on bad policy, bad faith and lies might be somewhat more harmful than anything the New York Times might do or so - doesn't even enter the equation.

23% of us don't even begin to make the connection and never will.  They're addicted to this shit, it doesn't matter how much the facts smack them in the forehead - they simply shake it off and keep propping up their little tin gods.

Dean suggests that the best we can do is recognize these people for who and what they are, but I think that's the least we can do. I think we need to confront these people at every turn, to face up to them Alpha-male bully bullshit and take them down.

Bullies can be beaten, they can be stopped - particularly when the other 77% of us finally decide to get off the fence, stand up and do something about them.

Vyan

[NVMojo]

1. thanks for the post, I'm ordering this book ...

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. Excellent post!

This book is on my list too.

thanks!

[jobycom]

3. K&R--thanks for this. Great work.

[rumpel]

4. Happy to give this the 5th!

thanks

[chookie]

5. Prediction for His Chimperial Majesty's poll numbers

Will obviously not drop much below 23%, because 23% of Americans are barking mad. This is the base he is left with, after 6 years of deceit and madness, and their cousin incompetence.

It might drop below this IF there is some breakaway, if some perceive that Bush is being a "softie" and restraining American military power while enemies and dissenters dare to draw breath. Don't laugh -- they're out there.

[Erika]

6. K & R n/t

[Zookeeper]

7. I watched that interview tonight....

Dean made an encouraging point: that some of these blind followers of authority may be able to change if they are made aware of their Pavlovian behavior and non-thinking.

At the least, if the rest of us become more aware of the followers as a "type" and an abberation we will be better equipped to protect what's left of our democracy from them.

[wordpix2]

37. Dean said that the blind follower types are rarely liberals, maybe 1%

because we can think critically, perhaps? :eyes:

[ClintonTyree]

62. Because we think.......period.

Those 23% are the people who would "believe", "hope" and "blindly trust" rather than think about any consequences involved in their "great leader's" or their own actions. There is no thought process involved, it's only blind faith. Odd, these are the same people that will tell you how VERY religious they are as well, and tell you, and tell you, and tell you.......... of course their actions are in direct conflict with their self proclaimed piety, but they can't see that. They're blind to their own hypocrisy. Thinking hurts their brains, they're not equipped for it. They're mindless morons that have NO business casting a vote for anyone. :grr:
Their only useful purpose on this earth would be as a door-stop, a bookend or perhaps a speed-bump. Useless! :mad:

[Syncronaut Seven]

38. Many are proud of their ignorance

Wear it like a badge. Craziest damn thing I've ever seen.

[LibDemAlways]

54. And what's frightening is that some of these ignorant

fools are otherwise intelligent people who have a deliberate political blind spot.

I spent part of the July 4th weekend with the wealthy repuke parents of a friend of my daughter. They own three homes. Mercedes Benz is their car of choice, and they own two. The man has a Hollywood power job. They will tell you with a smile that they have no interest in "what's going on in the world....except for Hollywood gossip." It's all about making - and spending - money. Truly scary.

[femrap]

70. I call 'em...

the willfully ignorant.

[Elidor]

8. Great post

I look at our society today and am reminded of the bitter hatred between conservatives and progressives in Colombia's civil wars. If the current demonization of liberals continues, I wonder how far down that ugly road we will travel before Americans realize where we are. The ugly truth is, our society is currently being manipulated by that 23% with a power out of all relation to their small numbers and extremist agendas. They have already dragged us surprisingly far down the road to totalitarianism.

And if we're not careful, they'll drag us down to their level. Someone around here used to have a sig line: Never argue with an idiot - they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. The same thing goes for engaging True Believers. We need to confront them in the media and in public, and hold them up for derision as the psycho/sociopaths they are. We need to bust their chops in the court of public opinion. We need to hang their failures around their necks and remind them of it constantly. We should preface every conversation with conservatives with the statement, "Now that you guys have fucked up the war, the environment, and the economy, you really want us to believe that you know what the hell you're doing? About anything?" We need to bell the cat.

[Vyan]

16. Most assuredly...

agreed!

Vyan

[fearthem]

9. Sending this to my son, getting the book -- thanks for this posting.

[autorank]

10. Outstanding post. And a bunch of classy commenter's until I showed up;)

I love this blog, is it yours? On edit: Duh, maybe "vyan.blogspot" should have topped me off:rofl:
http://vyan.blogspot.com/2006/06/battered-america-syndrome.html

No pulled punches.

I'm interested in those retained after suicide attempts because it validates what I hear about recruiting, how the standards have been lowered. It used to be required that new recruits were off psychiatric medication for six months prior to enlisting. Now it's down to a month, I hear. But look at those stats about anti depressants in Iraq. I wonder how many people who never took anti depressants are now taking them? How very tragic, that we put people in a situation where they're so depressed, they need medication to continue. One of the great "secrets" of WWII was that alcohol was liberally dispensed in the very worst battles, particularly Stalingrad, which was Hell on earth; beyond our wildest dreams. Alcohol is a dis inhibitor and provides some degree of euphoria. Anti depressants do not. When needed, one of the best results is a basis for better information processing and logical decision making. They may have a few surprises over there as a result of this drug use.

Of the 23%, they've alway been around. That's why it's so important to have an informed public.

Outstanding post. K&R

[Vyan]

11. Yeah, that's mine - thanks n/t

[TomInTib]

17. Drugs in the military? Are you kidding?

Two weeks ago I was walking along our 2 block long Main Street and (long story short) ran into a guy who was my instructor in Extraction Exercise in '68, Coronado, San Diego.

We were talking about how we got you-know-what habits to tamp down the Dexedrine Spansule that we were required to take for longrange missions.

[bananas]

12. "Video: John Dean on Countdown for download"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1606090
"Video: John Dean on Countdown for download"

[cry baby]

13. Wow, another info-filled excellent post!

bookmarked for future reference.

[EFerrari]

14. BinReilly is the poster boy for this books, isn't he? nt

[Erika]

15. I'm going to order 2 copies of Dean's book

One for us, and one for my GOP friend who runs when I bring up the Iraqi war.

[MnFats]

18. lord have mercy.

..our country is in a terrible, terrible mess.

[dmr]

19. Awesome Post

I know you put a lot of thought and work in this post, and it is much appreciated.

Welcome to DU! I'll be sure to look for more of your postings.

:)

[swimmernsecretsea]

20. OK. That was impressive. Thank you.

When people here want to knock our socks off, they do it, by God. Excellently done.

[Senator]

21. Fascism -- Authoritarianism -- Monarchism -- Theocracy -- (Dittoheadism)

Fascism -- authoritarianism -- monarchism -- theocracy -- it's all the same thing.

A belief that some minority has the right to rule the majority. It matters little if it's the true believers, a master race, a family dynasty, the chosen people, a ruling class, or the current DC/Euphemedia Analstocracy.

It's all anti-democratic, thus Anti-American*.

John Dean is tragically wrong when he says this menace is "close." This nation now lives under an appointed ruler (not an elected leader) who rules by signing statement.

This is what the stolen election of 2000 was all about. There was zero attention paid to the Will of the People of Florida and the nation. The result of the vote (not the vote count**) was well known shortly after the election when the uncounted ballots were extrapolated by precinct, and Gore won FL by tens of thousands. Any ethical, moral, real American would have conceded to Gore at that point.

The contract generally known as the US Constitution was put into breach on January 6th, 2001. This is the "original sin" that must be remedied. It is the essence of our ongoing nightmare.

It was this overruling of the will of the (former) American People that left us open to the 9-11 attack, which was a far less important event compared with the election theft. It simply allowed the 21st Century Neo-Fascists to have their "Reichstag fire" to consolitdate control.

The more important part was that the only global force for good in the past several decades -- the public opinion of the American People -- was taken out of the global, moral equation. Which is why prior to the election theft we could stop plane-crashing over the Pacific at the Millenium with help from Jordanian Intelligence, and after... well, not so much. We had lost our moral ascendency, our place as the court of last resort.

Certainly this is a "kinder, gentler" fascism. But did you expect goose-stepping, tanks in the streets and racial hate speech? It's much more efficient to simply scream "Mushroom clouds in 45 minutes!!" through every Euphemedia outlet in order to terrorize a population into compliance (20 guys with boxcutters pales in comparision, doesn't it?).

But make no mistake, it is fascism pure and simple.

It demands active opposition. Unlike their agents in congress, the American People are not impotent. We can still refuse to be complicit with the atrocities committed in our name.

But we must do so loudly -- at every opportunity, in large and small ways -- and in ways that make others uncomfortable. Yes, "Violence" is the answer.

_________
*"After Socialism, Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society" - Benito Mussolini 1932

**"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decided everything." -- Josef Stalin (echoed by Pol Pot, Bushes, Scalia, Rehnquist, Baker, Harris, Blackwell, etc...)

--
www.january6th.org

[suegeo]

30. I'd rather be right than popular.

You said:
There was zero attention paid to the Will of the People of Florida and the nation.

And Bunnypants said recently (paraphrase):
I'd rather be right than popular.

Meaning, his junta doesn't pay attention to (respect) what the people want.

In fact, these crazy bastards (whom some call our leaders) go steps further than disrespect. They surely DO pay attention to the polls. AND THEN they psychologically manipulate people who are even more stupid than the Bush junta, in order to get enough cover to implement exactly what most people DON'T want.

Also, I gotta wonder about that paraphrased quote: did he mean right, as in extreme right winger? Or did he mean right, as in correct. He is definitely not the latter, and fits right into the former.

[emald]

40. absofuckinglutely

The contract generally known as the US Constitution was put into breach on January 6th, 2001. This is the "original sin" that must be remedied. It is the essence of our ongoing nightmare.

You said it straighter than I've seen it said for quite awhile. Our constitution died on jan 6 2001. It was killed with malice aforethought.

[Cooley Hurd]

22. The KO/Dean interview was utterly CHILLING - K&R

Dean said we're not in fascism YET, but just a hair's breadth away from it.

This has to be stopped.:grr:

[Olney Blue]

23. That's quite a line-up of criminals on the book's cover.

K and R.

[WePurrsevere]

24. Excellent! K, R & bookmarked so I can re-read this again & again....

preferrably when I'm a bit more awake.

[Smarmie Doofus]

25. Can we consult Senator Lieberman re. this?

>>>Acording to his findings, a vast majority of Conservatives are drawn into the Leader/Follower archetype, where the Leaders are considered infallable, and the loyalty of the Followers is completely unshakable.>>>>

"....we undermine the credibility of the President of the United States at our nation's peril."

[drduffy]

26. Read Vice President Wallace on American fascism...

Hartmann article about Vice President Wallace and what he said 60+ years ago.....

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0719-15.htm

[Strawman]

33. Excellent post

You gotta wonder what kind of a world we'd be living in today had Wallace succeeded FDR instead of Truman.

[gatorboy]

27. And that's why you can expect more Tim McVeigh types if we win.

A Democrat win would be such a shock to their system, that they can't think of any better way to retaliate than to climb into the highest tower and start taking shots at liberals and the like.
Before the internet, it must've been difficult for someone to get an idea of how some of these people truly think. But now, thanks to the web, I think we know know too well. They celebrate hate and thanks to the likes of Coulter, think they can get a free pass. Which makes for a scary future when Democrats start taking power again....

[paparush]

28. Its the REST OF US who are f#cked!!

This 23%(and growing) dictate the policy of our country. Period. End of Story. Extremist views and extremist rhetoric are the norm. The 'center' has been shifted a mile to the right during the Bush** Reign. We will be fighting a revolution to dislodge this cabal from power.

[oc2002]

29. I think it is a fad, This too shall pass..

Americans are a fickle bunch of consumers, we have styles that come and go very quickly. And this fascist authoritarian regime will eventually where off like a bad bikini at the beach.


I am ordering the book at amazon, it should be a good read.

[gatorboy]

35. The majority might decide that the neo cons have over stayed

their welcome.

But there's still that 23-30% that will remain bat-shit crazy. And they'll let us know just how bat shit crazy they are.

[TheMirrorMan]

31. Probably a lot more than that

If you also consider knee-jerk anti-establishment/conspiracy theorists, in terms of inability to see the light of reason. :tinfoilhat:

[cgrindley]

32. The problem is that people confuse ideas with friends

There are two forces that sort of mirror one another here.

1. Ideas as friends. People grow attached to them, loyal to them. Do you all remember how long you held on to utterly irrational beliefs: a) the toilet was going to suck you down into the earth; b) that the Easter Bunny was going to bring you goodies; c) that your dad could lift a car... and so on. It's so common that even rationally minded researchers hang on to hypotheses long after the evidence is in. We've all heard about people falsifying research data. It's not to deliberately defraud anyone, it's because no one wants to be disloyal to an idea.

2. Same thing goes for the ideas of friends. The way a person generally shows friendship is through agreeing. A person who disagrees is often called unfriendly.

Why are we like this? Well, we need to value ideas. Ideas are what separate us from the animals we hunt and the crops we raise. Why do we need friends, because we do.

I don't think that there is such a thing as evil, and I'm fairly convinced that even the worst of the Bush government is not deliberately attempting to do "wrong". I just feel that they're in love with a bunch of crappy ideas and cannot desert one another all that easily. And both sides suffer from the same problem. Look at how long it is taking to get rid of lobbyists, of corporate donations, etc.

[Vyan]

47. Paradigm Syndrome!! n/t

[Gman]

34. Bookmarked for later

add another 10% for those who are borderline followers and you have the GOP base, those who feel Bush is doing a good job.

[RedEarth]

36. Good work!!!!

[emald]

39. I, also, saw this on olbermanns show

Here is a learned and well spoken sober individual essentially outlining the path our country is taking to fascism. Chinney and *ushit are criminals; both have also crapped all over the constitution and are therefore guilty of sedition, but there they are, in all there incompetent glory, strutting around like peacocks sure of their own beauty. Can 23% really be pulling this country into the black hole of warmongering profiteering? I suspect that kkkarl and his ilk have been pretty competent at one thing and that is manipulating the electoral system to leverage that 23% into their supposed "mandate".
Need to write an ode to my long lost country and it's all but forgotten value of honesty. Dishonesty is the tool of the GOPers. Confuse, obfuscate, mislead, sing the dance fantastic.
I retch on this administration and pray that "reality" hits it in the head. Hard.

[txwhitedove]

41. Vyan, you are a clear and powerful voice of truth. Thanks. K&R

[Vyan]

48. No, I'm merely...

crouching on the shoulders of Giants like Dean.

Vyan

[BrewAz]

42. What does it take to wake Americans up??

That is my question. Yes much if not all of the initial reporting on the stories can easily be found in the press....if you turn back to page 21....or watch CNN (maybe) or Olberman on MSNBC.....or listen to Air America. Where is the followup to hold the DOD and administration accountable and do something? Where is congress on the oversight?...OH, yeah, They are focused on online gambling today...What a joke!

Great post...and as part of the choir I will pass the info along. 23%?...I fear it is really closer to 35-40%.Foxnews ratings are still high...there are still millions of lemmings who watch/listen to the O'Reillys and Limbaughs and Humes of the world.

If it doesn't take lying and spying, killing and maiming, spending and ignoring....What does it take to wake Americans up?


BrewAz

[Rude Horner]

44. I know what it takes

It takes an education system that emphasises critical, independent thinking. That stresses the importance and value of free speech. That's why the fundies are attacking the education system, and pushing for prayer, less science, etc.... To people like this, why let facts get in the way when blind faith is so much easier?

[ladywnch]

52. It is EXACTLY what it takes

About "23% of the populace falls into the follower category" said Dean. "These people are impervious" to fact, rationality and reality. And their "Numbers are growing".

This is just what the neo-cons want. They are fueling it with the destruction of the educational system. The current system has been dumbed down to such a moronic level thanks to 'no child left behind' we discourage crtical thought and curiosity. Teachers tell children the 'correct' answer and students are told to parrot it back.....don't think about the answer.....just repeat it. And, as with the Repubs and the press, you repeat information enough times (right or wrong) it becomes indisputable fact.

In the long run, it just becomes EASIER to listen than to actually think. Advertising and media do an excellent job telling how stressed out we are, how over extended we are, there just aren't enough hours in a day.....etc. It's just easier to listen and swallow all the fear mongering and garbage the neo-cons spew. "I'm too busy to worry about that stuff......face it, IT'S HARD WORK sift through all the noise and really think about things and figure things out. Particularly when you haven't been taught the skills.

This is is just more of their Master Plan.........

Scary.

[Maestro]

43. I'm with the other 77%

Let's kick some ass. I detested * as governor of my state and more so as the Great Morans Leader.

[mtnsnake]

45. Dean might turn out to be one of the most important Americans of this era

He's addressing the problems we face in a fashion that's educational and he's doing it with a no-nonsense approach.

Our Democratic leaders and spokespeople need to follow suit. They need to stop beating around the bush with political jargon that appeases both sides, and instead they must throw caution to the wind when it comes to addressing the conservative nemesis that this nation faces. Our Democratic leaders are way too careful and way too worried about their own political careers. Kudos to John Dean for showing them how to do what they always wanted to do but never had the courage to do on their own.

Great post, Vyan!

[Laurab]

46. Dean is on Jon Stewart tonight

very well written - thank you. K & R!

[MadHound]

49. I find it to be a very telling sign

How many conservatives, true old school Republicans and conservatives, have been increasingly speaking out against this administration of neo-cons. Goldwater, Dean, Phillips, 'O Neil, and the list goes on. They realize that the neo-con movement isn't truly a conservative movement, but is instead a fascist one, something that they fought against in their youth and are now having to confront here at home in their old age.

[The Wizard]

50. Military suicides

are greater than the stats indicate. Many are disguised as accidents. We had a guy who sat on top of a bunker after everyone was told to get under cover as the Air Force was going to machine gun the area because it was being over run with enemy forces. It was recorded as KIA, but his behavior suggested otherwise. Combat stress causes people to do things otherwise thought to be unacceptable. Many returning vets suffering with PTSD have stepped in front of busses or driven a vehicle into an immovable object. There are several creative ways for self elimination, but they need not be discussed here.

[McCamy Taylor]

71. Authoritarianism could be hard wired in a few to make them fodder for war.

However, tribal warfare becomes obsolete as civilizations develop, so the numbers needed would grow lower over time. Plus, you would expect lower numbers in the US than in Europe, since so many people here are descended from immigrants who rejected European authority and fled to the New World. US tends to distrust its government, demand a turn over in government at regular intervals and is at very low risk for the development of a fascist state (in mu humble opinion)---unless the 23% hacks the vote. And even then, the 77% might rebel. The American Revolutionary Model and Civil War models are both held dear.

[TwentyFive]

51. Thanks for the info! Explains fundies, freepers and other 'morans'

Strong leader/follower archetype. Very compelling argument to explain every fascist dictatorship, including the present one.

[nevergiveup]

53. Barry Goldwater is likely turning in his grave.

He at times was a tad knee-jerk on international affairs but he loved his country for all the right reasons. He passed fearing the intrusion of fundamentalist religion into American politics. Much of this probably had to do with fear for his gay grandson who he adored. Goldwater was a class act and perhaps the last true American conservative. Thanks for your post. I ordered Dean's book yesterday evening.

[The Wizard]

60. Goldwater once said

Falwell needed a good kick in the ass.

[vssmith]

74. Which end is his ass on?

[Larry Ogg]

55. Want to see peace in the world. Investigate, try and execute these fascist

I think the number 23% is being really really kind. Consider a higher number for those who just don’t give a shit about what’s really going on, as long as they believe there not effected or there’s nothing they can do or there votes don’t count anyway. There in effect furthering the cause of the right. So you got it correct by saying, “getting the 77% off us of the fence to do some-thing about it. Let’s pretend that happened. Would there be investigations of all there crimes? Will they be tried for there crimes? Will they receive there just punishment for there crimes? My bet is NO, NO and Hell NO… But what will happen is that they will regroup and be back in 2012 to complete there destruction of this country and continue there goal of world domination.

Want to see peace in the world. Investigate, try and execute these fascist bastards. :nuke:

[Ian_rd]

56. This is the result of successfully weaving Bush into a Christ-like figure

The projection of Bush as some kind of messenger from God is no accident in my opinion. It serves to create a figure of religious faith. And praise it however you like, but faith is incompatible with reason.

And when Bush is thus removed from matters of reason, you get what we have today with this 23%: A president who is an object of worship more than he is of scrutiny or skeptisicm - a man who is by definition incapable of mistakes because whatever he does or says serves a divine agenda.

[Vyan]

57. Video is now up

Video of the Dean/Olbermann Segment is up and the Transcript will be up later today.

Vyan

[jobendorfer]

58. And Now For a More Pessimistic View ...

"Everywhere in the West there are subversive minorities who, sheltered
by our humanitarianism and our sense of justice, hold the incendiary
torches ready, with nothing to stop the spread of their ideas except
the critical reason of a single, fairly intelligent, mentally stable
stratum of the population. One should not, however, overestimate the
thickness of this stratum. It varies from country to country in
accordance with the national temperament. Also, it is regionally
dependent upon public education and is subject to the influence of
acutely disturbing factors of a political and economic nature. Taking
plebescites as a criterion, one could on an optimistic estimate put
its upper limit at about 40 per cent of the electorate. A rather more
pessimistic view would not be unjustified either, since the gift of
reason and critical reflection is not one of man's outstanding
pecularities ..."

-- C.G. Jung, "The Undiscovered Self", 1957

[Mugsy]

59. 23% "faithful" despite all evidence. Remind you of any group?

23% of the public will remain faithful to their beliefs and support the GOP despite any and all evidence of their failures and the mess they are making. Does this remind you of any particular group?

It therefore can not possibly come as any surprise to anyone that the GOP's base is the Religious Right... which remains "faithful" to their ideals despite any and all evidence to the contrary.

[grasswire]

61. if this interests you...

...then please read Eric Hoffer's book "The True Believer" published in the 1950s. The parallels to today are uncanny. You can order the book from amazon.com if you can't find it at your local bookseller.

Also, please read the essay at American Prospect titled "Politics of Definition" because it holds a winning strategy for Democrats despite the prevalence of the authoritarian personalities in positions of power.

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=11435

[slay]

66. I have read Hoffer's book and it is indeed fascinating

I have both "The True Believer" and "The Ordeal of Change" sitting on my bookshelf right now. In fact your post has prompted me to go back and read "The True Believer" again since it is so pertinent to what's going on with the Republican party these days, unfortunately.

[grasswire]

72. don't miss the part....

....where the description of the "leader" is detailed. It's nearly a perfect likeness of Bush.

[smartvoter]

63. k/r nt

[deaniac21]

64. I know I am...

daily

[slay]

65. That also means Republicans need only get 28% of the rest to screw us all

Between the "authoritarian/follower" type and the evangelical christians, we all may indeed be fucked. Very fucked. :scared:

[speedoo]

67. This is why we fight them at every turn.

It's why...

We must take the Senate and/ot the House, but the Senate at a minimum, even if means keeping Lieberthug.

Cheney, and then Bush, must be impeached.

We must take to the streets, if necessary.

By any means necessary, short of violence and revolution, we must take this country back, before these thugs destroy it.

[Joanne98]

68. Is that study he was talking about available?

[McCamy Taylor]

69. Neither man asked HOW 23% could take over a democracy. ELECTION FRAUD

has been a taboo subject on Countdown ever since the Ebersol plane accident. I do not believe that Karl Rove had anything to do with that plane crash, but I think that in the long months that Ebersol was in the hospital before the FAA issued its report, the people in charge of that show got very, very frightened of the topic, and now they will not touch the issue in any form, no matter how glaring its absence.

There is something wrong here when Lou Dobbs will pitch a hissy fit because E-Voting machines were used to steal white Republican votes in some GOP primaries this spring but Olberman will not cover any Election Fraud topics at all. Does no one else find this odd? I think someone on that show made a promise to god or something.

[illinoisprogressive]

73. Conservatives without Conscience

I saw John Dean on CountDown as well. I immediately went to amazon.
I read Mr. Dean's book Worse than Watergate last winter. Long after it had been published and it gave me chills. This book came out before the 2004 election and the slow truths coming out about this administration and it's heads. Reading it as the wiretap story came out I thought Dean must have been a fly on the wall, he was that accurate.
This new book explains what is going on and how it came to pass and why the right is so angry, violent, unreasonable and looking for someone to cast in the bad guy role.
This looks to be an important book in understanding our age and the blind zeal.
I also hope it explains the other 26% of dummies who re-elected this shrub.

[sofa king]

75. An interesting benchmark.

If one accepts John Dean's assertion that 23% of the average American population will condone anything done by their (supposedly) elected leaders, then I think we can make other interesting observations.

I wonder if it's statistically valid to treat that figure as a known sum which can be subtracted from all approval ratings. For example, subtracting 23% from the President's job approval ratings reveal truly frightening numbers. In fact, that unshakeable 23% represents well over half of the President's total support and has for most of his residency.

At his approval nadir (for the moment) of 31%, less than ten percent of open-minded Americans approved of the President's job, but most of the time 33% seems to be a pretty solid lower limit. Which other ten percent would still approve of what the President is doing? Well, it's often thrown about that ten percent of America's population controls eighty percent of the nation's wealth, and of all Americans, only that subset of the population has received anything beneficial from this President, in the form of numerous tax cuts targeted specifically for them, along with highly profitable and corrupt government favoratism.

Rich assholes and the morons who do what those assholes tell them, that's the President's "base." Base, indeed.

[FogerRox]

76. get off the damn fence join the fight

[tavalon]

77. I wonder what John Dean's political slant is now

Remember, he a counsel to Nixon in Nixon's regime. Clearly, his point of view has been radically changed.

Still, every time I see his name, I think about how this is part of bizarro world, a world in which John Dean is a good guy instead of a Watergate co-conspirator and Bob Woodward is a right wing hack instead of a journalist with integrity breaking the Watergate story. The world is definitely skewed.

[Justice Is Comin]

78. Before you fade into the abyss of the 24 hour time limit of

greatest...here is another rec for your screen shot.

Great stuff!

[Doctor_J]

79. 23% are fucked up - all of us are fucked

since the 23% run the country

[nxylas]

80. Just seen Jon Stewart's interview with Dean

I normally love TDS, but on this occasion, Stewart really irritated me with his constant interruptions. Dean sounded like he'd have some really interesting things to say if he was ever allowed to FINISH A FUCKING SENTENCE!

[ladym55]

81. I need to join everyone at amazon

I had the bright idea to ORDER Dean's book from my local PUBLIC library. Silly me. Guess what they hadn't ordered!!! Not one copy in the entire county-wide system. Actually, I'll take that back! After first putting up this post, I checked the on-line library catalog again (I tried to order a copy of the book last week), and WE HAVE TWO WHOLE AUDIO EDITIONS. ooh, aaah. :sarcasm:

I'm guessing that will change now that Dean is making a big splash. People will begin to request the book more regularly then. The exact same thing happened with the book American Theocracy. No copies until it hit the bestseller list. (Now we have 15 copies and 15 requests to read the book--me so proud!)

But not to worry!!! We have lots o' copies of the "Left Behind" series.

:banghead: