Question: Is Hillary a NeoCon?

[Demeter]

This question arose from a previous thread regarding Lieberman.


If Joe can be legitimately identified as a NeoCon based on his critical votes to support the NeoCon agenda, what about the junior Senator of NY?

Is Hillary a bona fide NeoCon, a well-meaning but confused and enabling Triangulator, an unprincipled Opportunist, a closet moderate GOP, a clueless media Construct driven by polls and a desire to show up Bill, or bought and sold by Carlyle?

Any other Aphorism, denoting a concise expression of a truth or principle, implies depth of content and stylistic distinction; that you might recommend?

[herbbrown]

1. Yes nt

[oasis]

14. ????. Don't bother explaining.

:eyes:

[herbbrown]

19. Actully he says it better than I could

Hillary May Be Presidential Material, After All
On Iraq and Israel, she's a perfect neocon

http://www.antiwar.com/frank/?articleid=9247

[SOS]

28. Here's another on the War Hawk Hillary

Hillary the Hawk
The Democrats’ Athena only differs from Bush on the details.
by Justin Raimondo

http://www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_03_27/cover.html

Vote Tasini on September 12!

[oasis]

30. War hawk? Some would call it being strong on national defense. BTW

I wouldn't expect an ultra-conservative publication to bubble over with enthusiasm about anything Clinton.

[SOS]

39. The Iraq catastrophe

is certainly not an example of being strong on national defense.

The invasion of Iraq was the “greatest strategic disaster in United States history"
-Army Lt. Gen. William Odom

[oasis]

40. Iraq catastrophe aside, McCain, Bush, Lieberman etc. get high marks

on national defense. Hillary knows what to do to play in that league. She's too "hawkish" for some, but I'm guessing she's just right for most voters.

[Clark2008]

43. Except that she's female.

And hated in all the red states (which, if you haven't noticed, we need to flip and several are ripe for the picking, but not with Hillary).

And hated by liberals.

And...

Well, she's actually not just right for most voters - the won't vote for her. Think McGovern.

[herbbrown]

20. Yes she's a Neocon!

Sadly, Clinton, if elected president in 2008, will praise and embolden the occupations – both in Iraq and Palestine. She won't pull out U.S. troops, and she won't cut U.S. funding to Israel.

[oasis]

23. And your candidate for president who will cut funding to Israel is?

:shrug:

[oasis]

31. Haven't found one yet? Surprise, surprise.

:eyes:

[herbbrown]

36. Does it bother you just a little?

That her strategy in Iraq and Israel is "stay the course", with a little bit of tweaking, doesn't matter anyway there's no way she's the nominee.

[oasis]

41. "no way she's the nominee" you say?

Let me put it this way. Whoever the nominee is, they had better have credentials equal to Hillary or they might as well pack it in.

Nice talkin' to ya. :hi:

[Clark2008]

44. Creds?

:rofl:

Her "creds" won't flip one damn red state. LISTEN. READ.

And she'll lose us Michigan and Pennsylvania.

[oasis]

51. Two years is plenty of time to shore them up. Don't forget the importance

of a running mate who could bring in a red state or two. wink, wink.;-)

[Clark2008]

55. Didn't work for Kerry

Wink wink

[oasis]

58. She'll have a much better team than Kerry had in 2004. Some of the folks

you know will be on board. wink, wink;-)

[Clark2008]

60. Oooohh.. well, I doubt Clark will be anybody's Cheney

Sec. of State, mebee.... but not a VP, no.

[sendero]

65. That's one thing you don't have to worry about..

... in a Hillary/McCain matchup, Hillary will lose big. In a Hillary/AnyOtherRepublican matchup, she'll merely lose.

[saltpoint]

2. No.

[Jim Sagle]

3. She's a HillaryCon. If you assign any other label, you've been conned.

[Demeter]

8. You May Be Exactly Right

in which case, it's Truly a case of caveat emptor!

[calico1]

4. No n/t

[Totally Committed]

5. "Is Hillary...

a bona fide NeoCon, a... confused and enabling Triangulator, an unprincipled Opportunist, a closet moderate GOP, a clueless media Construct driven by polls and a desire to show up Bill, or bought and sold by Carlyle?"

Except for "well-meaning", which she is too calculating to be, all of the above?

Hillary is also one other thing not mentioned here -- U N E L E C T A B L E.

TC

[skipos]

6. Yes, everyone who doesn't agree with me on everything is a neocon

Kucinich, Clark and Dean all supported flag burning amendements, so they are neocons. Feingold voted for Roberts, so he is a neocon. Gore was DLC, so he is a neocon.

Just kidding. While all of our Democratic policitians have probably been called "DINO" at one time or another, if you look at any poll which asks "Is Clinton moderate, liberal or conservative?" the largest votes go for "liberal" and very few pick "conservative."

[Demeter]

7. NeoCons Don't Fit Into Those Labels

Moderate, Liberal, and Conservative labels have been consigned to social issues for the most part.

Economic issues have almost no good identifying monickers as the issues have been thoroughly muddled by Reagan and the Bush family.

Foreign policy hawks and doves have been shouldered out by NeoCons and Cowards (or the not Criminally Insane, as I prefer to call them).

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

18. But you forget - polls that don't agree with you are lies

The respondents deliberately throw off results with opinions that are the exact opposite of what they actually believe. The general population is so interested in politics that you can count on them to be that crafty. Insidious, no?

[Clark2008]

46. And that strengthens by argument against her, not lessens it

She's a moderately-conservative (for real) who's thought of in the much-needed red states as an hysterical liberal.


TC's right... she's UNELECTABLE.

[KKKarl is an idiot]

9. Red States

Hilary knows she can easily carry all the blue states of '04. So making a few people upset with her in easy blue states is okay because she will still get their electoral college votes. But what she is trying to do is carry some of the red states & that means she is supposed to be seen as a neocon in some places. This is just politics. I just hope if she ever succeeds in her agenda that she shows us some of her earlier totally progressive leanings.

[Demeter]

10. I'd Rather Flip the Red States

That would be progress, and worth the effort. Dishonesty will merely harden those Red States into concrete blockheads.

[boolean]

11. What

What makes you think they're not already concrete blockheads?

[Demeter]

15. Kansas Is Flipping, for One

the former GOP Chairman switched to Democratic Party. 6 years of failure, poverty, and destruction are bearing fruit.

Texas is liquifying. They don't want Tom DeLay back.

It's rather like global warming--the glaciers are starting to recede.

[Clark2008]

48. Yes!

But they still won't vote for Hillary.

(I know. I have a Dem Gov. in a red state and a formidable Dem challenger for Senate for the first time since Al Gore).

[IndianaGreen]

12. Hillary is a neolib, the flip side of a neocon

It is the same imperialist coin. On one side is the PNAC neocons, on the other the PPI neolibs. Both of them are globalists, both of them are imperialists, both of them believe in using military might to maintain American hegemony.

The neocons will fuck you without lubrication, while the neolibs will use Vaseline!

Lieberman is a neocon.

[Demeter]

16. Scary--Thanks for the Definition!

[Clark2008]

56. Heh... I just keep thinking of the Flaming Lips

I know a girl who thinks of ghosts
She'll make ya breakfast
She'll make ya toast
She dont use butter
She dont use cheese
She dont use jelly
Or any of these
She uses vaseline
Vaseline
Vaseline

I know a guy who goes to shows
When he's at home and he blows his nose
He dont use tissues or his sleeve
He dont use napkins or any of these
He uses magazines
Magazines
Magazines
Magazines
Magazines

I know a girl who reminds me of Cher
(reminds me of Cher)
Shes always changing
(shes always changing)
The color of her hair
(color of her hair)
She dont use nothing
That ya buy at the store
She likes her hair to be real orange
She uses tangerines
Tangerines
Tangerines
Tangerines
Tangerines
Tangerines

[rman]

13. Not sure, but i think she is to the Right of Goldwater Republicans

[Totally Committed]

32. She was a "Goldwater Girl" in college...

so, you think she's to the R of that now? Interesting. You could be correct.

TC

[rman]

62. Right; a lot has changed in the Republican party since.

"Changed" as in, moved to the right.

[paulk]

33. make a case for that

issue by issue

[AJH032]

38. impossible

Hillary is always being labeled Republican, conservative, "Neocon," or something to that effect here at DU, but it's never backed up. People will believe what they want to believe.

[rman]

61. John Dean,

a self ascribed Goldwater republican, says Goldwater republicans are now left of center.
For all i know Hillary claims to be a center Democrat.

[paulk]

63. that "appeal to authority" only works

if I give a fuck about what John Dean thinks.

It's not much of an argument, and certainly doesn't support your claim.

And if Hillary claims to be a center Democrat, her voting record says otherwise.

And not in the direction I'm sure you would assert.

[Warpy]

17. NOTA. She's an Eisenhower Repuglican

It's how she was raised.

Eisenhower Repugs were decent enough and only put slight pressure on laws ensuring economic justice, worker safety, and other social programs. Tbey didn't like them but they knew they were necessary.

Foreign policy was the problem, of course, and they were rabidly anticommunist without knowing exactly why, beyond a fear driven, us vs. them mindset. They were the ones behind SOTA and other horrors, along with the rise of the military/industrial/congressional complex.

She's just following that pattern, only her bugaboo isn't communism but men in funny clothing in the middle east. She likes Israel better because they dress like us and kinda look like us.

That's basically it in a nutshell. She's an old style conservative, not the rabidly antiworker, antiwoman, anti American neocon type we see running the GOP. She just agrees with much of their foregn policy.

[PATRICK]

21. Maybe not so ideological at all

It is that damned "triangulation" strangulation posture, like wearing the wrong shoes too long. And it isn't cynical enough to serve any underlying ideology so perhaps trying to mind read isn't necessary. She ends up having to trust too many centrists, too many wrongly styled "moderates" or people of integrity. She trusted Powell and should have known better from his truculent dealings and double dealings- as a potential rival- about WMD's in Iraq. She reins in(only temporarily) the loons from the DLC leadership(like From etc.) and modifies her stands without ever re-examining the basic DLC philosophy. She shows the real passion about flag burning and video games. Passion and loyalty and issue plays are all off kilter, misplaced and dysfunctional and I am very sure she considers this following in her husband's sure path.

Nor is she making the connection how she won and still wins her Senate seat as compared to campaigning for presidential office. Obviously she knows they are substantially different, but appealing to red states through negative issues is at variance with her success as a dogged loyal and caring NY Senator. Fueling hatred in other states is the problem- not the solution- and she of all people should know that.

She seems to be triangulating against herself and doing that very successfully.

What it adds up to- should she be allowed to have the presidency- is a rather hapless imitation of Bill against greater odds and sowing tremendous divisions in the Party that would eventually make the Gingrich years seem like the Dem golden age. By winning she would again be sealed in the conviction she can only govern by surrendering the Democratic platform to the worst compromises.

As with Bill, I am sure that she would prefer more liberal stances and legislation, but in the end result it doesn't matter what she believes in, but her habits of action. And that would be fatal to the party at large(and likely the nation) to set at the head of their term in power.

[SaveElmer]

22. Question: Is this thread ridiculous flame bait?

Yes!

What an inane contention!

[juajen]

53. Aye, Matey; 'tis so, tis so.

N/T

[Jacobin]

24. She supports the neo-con agenda

in the middle east.

If it quacks like a duck.....

[wyldwolf]

25. LOL!

Ya know, in another thread, someone said Harry Truman was a neocon. Alternately, severaly days later, someone posted that there were few further left than Truman.

I also got into a spat with someone who said Bill Clinton's policies were neocon.

I'm beginning to think the term has lost it's meaning (if it ever had a definitive one) and now means someone who isn't as left as someone thinks they should be.

[bemildred]

26. No, more a "useful idiot" or "fellow traveler".

[noonwitch]

27. No, she's a left-leaning centrist

She supports Roe, she supports equal rights for all, she supports affirmative action. Her record is not conservative in the least.

Most people who don't like her here and are calling her a conservative are die-hard anti-war people. I'm kind of moderate about the war-we should have never gone there, but I hope that we can accomplish something good there before leaving.

[JNelson6563]

29. No, she's an enabler though

anything that may benefit Hillary is good for Hillary.

[alvarezadams]

34. If she's DLC

she's a neocon. Or at least would be if... she followed the rhetoric that her subgroup spews.

But since she's an unprincipled opportunist I doubt that she's a neocon by conviction.

[rucky]

35. NeoLib

the other side of the same coin.

[alvarezadams]

37. You sure?

Neo-lib refers to a primarily economic ideology that CAN include military hawkism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism) while neoconservatism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_in_the_United_States) has less of an economic basis and is, in some ways, more "progressive" than neo-liberalism.

It is indeed possible to be something of an economic neo-lib and a political neocon. That is to say - to support "free trade" (aka globalization or economic colonialism) and the uniltareral imposition of political and economic criteria through the use of force.

At the same time, both "ideologies" share some common roots, especially with regards to Leo Strauss -- an anti-democratic philosopher that thought that manipulation and mendacity are licit as far as politicians are concerned.

The connection between neo-liberalism, neoconservatism and the DLC are patently clear: http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1463 .

[Cocoa]

42. no, and I don't think Lieberman is either

I'd call Joe a neocon sympathizer.

I see the neocons as a pretty tight group that are associated with a particular set of think tanks and publications, and Joe isn't part of that.

Hillary isn't even close, as I see it.

[mtnsnake]

45. Dumbest question EVER.

If Hillary is a neocon, then Russ Feingold and John Kerry are bigger ones...not that any of them really are....but Hillary is a more progressive senator than either of them and she's more progressive than 90% of the other senators in Congress.
http://www.progressivepunch.org/members.jsp?member=HI1&search=selectScore&chamber=Senate&zip=

This is just another idiotic thread which serves to divide. Good job!!

[LincolnMcGrath]

47. Hardly even the dumbest today, but I digress.

Can I get a blog to rate me and then come back and use it to prop up my argument?


Oh Yeah, HC is not a Neocon, IMHO.

[mtnsnake]

49. Not only is it the dumbest ever, but it's one of the most divisive

Dumbest + Most Divisive = only one thing. You figure it out.

[LincolnMcGrath]

50. Stop with that nonsense.

[mtnsnake]

52. haha, you should know something about that...

[LincolnMcGrath]

66. Recognize your own siren wailing in this non-divisive post of yours?

You're either just what I called you...a "loonie radical left extremist WHINER", whose only purpose is to run around twisting your own delusional meanings into other people's posts....or you're someone who's so fucking low, so fucking cowardly, that you have to accuse me of something I'm not from behind the safety of your keyboard, just to cover for your own pathetic political shortcomings. I don't mind being accused of something if it's justified, but when a punk like you accuses me of being associated with Limbaugh or of not being a Democrat, then you've stepped your bounds, you fricken teenybopper puke. I'd love to see you question my political allegiances outside of the safety of your computer room. Punk


Now, do you still want to discuss your claims of most ever status.

[mtnsnake]

67. Hey, when you accuse someone of something they're not

that's what you can expect to get.

It's no small wonder, considering the dumb positions you love putting yourelf into.

Now run along...

[LincolnMcGrath]

69. Who are you replying to? Where did I accuse you of anything?

And for the love of jeebus, post one link to any dumb positions I have gotten myself into.


Now, put up, or... well we can always hope.

[mtnsnake]

72. You sound like your suffering from accumulated punishment by Benchley

over the last few months. One too many internet beatings has taken a toll on you.

[omenapoint]

54. My analysis of Hillary.

1st, she is a creature of opportunity.

2nd, she will do or say whatever it takes to succeed politically.

3rd, she is not a liberal, she is not a moderate, she is not conservative, she is not a Democrat, she is not a Republican. She is only hungry for power.

4th, she has no morals, as evidenced by supporting the war, not supporting the war, and by the way she stayed by her husband, despite the overwhelming proof that he philandered during their marriage.

5th, we can do much better than her.

[oasis]

57. Hillary took a principled stand when she stood by Bill during the right

wing witch hunt. If she had abandoned him, so would many of his supporters. The vast right wing conspirators set out to get Bill from the first time he announced he was running.

Read "The Hunting of the President" by Joe Conason and "Blinded by the Right" by David Brock.

Hillary deserves credit for the part she played in preserving the office of the presidency from illegal impeachment by right wing attack dogs.

Number 5. If your desire is to "do much better" then try to inform yourself on Hillary's accomplishments. You'll see that you needn't go much further.

[Placebo]

59. NO.

And anyone who thinks she is a fucking ignorant fool.

[truebrit71]

64. Hillary stands for Hillary, everything else is secondary.

Next?

[LaPera]

68. Pretty close...She courts that side of the fence for sure.

DLC trash, moderate to soft right...UGH!!!!

[Jack Rabbit]

70. Well, that all dpends

If she's speaking to the PPI or the AEI today, then yes.

If she's speaking to teh friendly members of DU, then of course not.

[proud patriot]

71. I don't think so

and I'm not a huge Hillary fan .

[The Magistrate]

73. Locking

Do not post broad-brush smears against Democrats or the Democratic Party.