You know ..... if you just tell the truth, you sound like a crazy person!

[Stinky The Clown]

I posted another thread about a conversation I had with a Republican last night. (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2720892) As I've been sitting here today reflecting back on what was a very long discussion, it occurs to me that I may have sounded like a total nutjob lunatic.

Just think of what the truth is. It is so outrageous as to seem, at least on its surface, to be ranting and conspiracy theory and lies.

Bush stole two elections through chicanry, dirty tricks, and outright vote count cheating.

Bush lied us into war. He didn't 'stretch the truth' or 'get it wrong' or anything that just demonstrates incompetence or ignorance coupled with a more benign intent. He WILLFULLY FUCKING LIED TO THE COUNTRY about something that really matters.

The government is spying on its citizens. Not one or two of us, but, literally, MILLIONS of us.

The Patriot Act stands in direct opposition to the Consititution and Bill of Rights.

And so much more, with all of which we are all painfully familiar.

And it gets even worse when you drill down to some of the underlying truths that prove the facts. It is ALL so damned incredible. How can any sane person absorb this? This is the United States of America, fer krissakes. We're the good guys.

Has anyone else ever felt this? I know my facts. Really. I do. But when you lay out argument after argument to demonstrate just how evil this administration has been you sound like a nutjob.

They were oh so right about telling the big lie. To try to knock it down is difficult if one wishes to also appear sane and reasoned.

I hate these motherfuckers. I hate them I hate them I hate them!

[gumby]

1. Worse that that,

You're not supposed to talk about such things in 'polite society.' Not only do you sound like a tin-foil-hat-wearing-waco, you're rude to boot!!!

I hate 'em too.

[Junkdrawer]

2. Someone hasn't been taking their Soma lately...

Remember, a gram is better than a damn. BTW: I just can't wait for the new season of American Idol, how about you?














:sarcasm:

[BOSSHOG]

3. You don't sound like a nutjob at all

You sound like a constitution loving patriot to me. You have an excellent point to a point. You (and I and the rest of us) sound like nutjobs to those who have been conditioned to hear what their handlers want them to hear. Its so sad the battle has to be fought that way. "Conservatives" prosper on the hate and ignorance of the base; its really quite simple and can not be refuted. Please any lurker chime in and set me straight.

[Marnieworld]

4. They are war criminals

Legally, honestly, right out in the open War Criminals. They have waged a war of agression on a sovereign nation which is the ultimate war crime. In the name of the United States we have tortured and killed those in custody, often with sick sexually perverted ways with the sadism of a Dr. Mengele. Gitmo is just a lab to experiment on human beings. All of this widely accepted facts without calling it what it is- war crimes. The spying program is illegal, blatantly against the FISA law that was created specifically for that purpose. We have internal memos public about how they wanted to invade Iraq no matter what the facts and yet still the madness continues. We lost an entire city due to incompetence and indifference. Bush literally fiddled when NOLA drowned.

If I said any of this out loud at my job I would be fired by my Freeper boss. If I said this to my Fox News watching mother and brother they would never believe me. The truth is insane. We live in mad times.

I have given up trying to convince the unconvincible. I admire that you are still trying.

I hate the motherfuckers too! I wish there was a hell for them but unfortunately we only know of the hell they created for us. Will we ever get our country back to the rule of law? :grr:

[xzyra]

5. Yes, and documented in social science literature

I am not an expert in this, but I remember learning about social systems in grad school, and how if you have a "sane" person who is operating in a really dysfunctional or insane context or environment, the "sane" person can start to believe that *they* are the one who is crazy.

I think that is in play here. The saving grace is the internet. Not surprising to me that liberal blogs evolved and are thriving during these years, when many of us needed to have a place to check our reality with others.

I haven't done any scientific study, but I would guess there are much fewer conservative blogs, because there isn't the same sort of impulse on that side to check reality.

Stay strong, you are not nuts, no matter how it might look or feel while we are in this insane time. Everyone here is just as pissed and freaked out as you are.

Thank God we have the internet, or I would have committed myself by now.

[MuseRider]

6. I had a similar experience

not too long ago. I looked up and realized that all involved in the conversation were looking at me like I had horns growing out of my head.

I felt like a loon BUT I would think that maybe one or two of the group will look around and try to find out what I was talking about. I defused it a little by telling them how and where to find the info. Still, it is a very scary thing to think how many people just have no idea and that most of those people simply don't care.

[stellanoir]

7. Stinky dear I invariably adore your truth telling and spunky posts

Yet this statement "This is the United States of America, fer krissakes. We're the good guys" I take great issue with.

Yoohoo. We have lost any shred of moral supremacy we could previously feign. We all unwittingly have blood on our hands by not so virtue of our mere citizenship. Torture, rape, and innumerable war crimes have eroded all of that.

This is a stunning quotation from a plaintiff post from the authoress of the "Vagina Monologues"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1300118

for those who missed it, it rocked my soul in it's utter simplicity and absolute truth.

"America, those who now control our country have changed and ended law."

Here is an old post about how I feel about hatred though. . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=3569357

Consider not empowering these subhumans with the hatred upon which they seemingly thrive.

Great thread on your discussion last eve though. Best to Sparkly and I love that you call your wife that. Too sweet.

rec'd

[Stinky The Clown]

14. About the 'good guys' .......

... first, thanks for you kind words.

The reference to 'good guys' was to the artifact of that which still remains, not the facts as they are today. We still **want** to be the good guys, of course, and that, it seems to me, is one reason the 'big lie' is so horrendously effective.

And thanks, too, for those two links. I'd missed those threads.

[Totally Committed]

8. Yeah... but those of us who feel we know you

think you are just a teddy bear.... okay, a foul-mouthed, but very sweet teddy bear.

TC

[clar8130]

9. I'm with you

And I'm getting increasingly afraid to discuss these truths with anyone. Even my husband thinks I've gone overboard.

That's another reason the "big lie" is so effective. Eventually you find it easier to keep your truths to yourself.

I hate it, too.

[niyad]

16. welcome to DU--I refuse to be silent, even in this reichwing haven. ppl

have got to hear the truth, even if they don't want to accept it or believe it. besides, the first time they hear it, they will deny, and the second, and third. eventually, it will become familiar, and therefore acceptable, kind of like chinese water torture.

[Rageneau]

10. The only retort my GOP friends have these days is "They all do it."

And that JimmyCarter was a bad president and that Bill Clinton was a horndog.

That seems to sum up the Republican defense of the worst administration in the history of this republic.

[rucky]

13. Then why aren't we joining together to stop it?

partisan divisions are created to prevent such a powerful thing from happening. (even if the other side really does suck)

Looks like we're both being duped, and two wrongs certainly don't make a right.


That's what i'd say to that.

[iamahaingttta]

11. That's why you have to simplify...

It's easy to get caught up in the details. Don't argue with conservatives about the details. You will lose because they won't listen to you. Go for the big picture!

Here's the way I've started approaching things. If you say this up front, the conversation won't get sapped by the details. Ready?

"The conservative agenda is and has been since the days of Reagan to destroy government and privatize everything."

It's really that simple. You can then take this notion into any area, and things make sense in new ways. They couldn't pull this agenda off at the ballot box, so they have to do it with guns and death and lies. and destruction. Their propaganda ensures that the masses are kept ignorant of this agenda.

The Neo-Con sub-agenda is to destroy government by killing its credibility and its credit-worthiness. By wreaking havoc in the world and destroying as much as they can, they lessen the value of everything. Once the smoke clears, they will be able to buy up anything for sale for cheap. That airport being bombed near Beirut as we speak? Don'tcha think Bechtel would love to get its hands on that? That's how it's all going to play out.

So... when trying to debate these issues with conservatives, don't get caught up in the blather of the details. Go right for the agenda, show examples of how the Bush admin IS CLEARLY MEETING ITS GOALS and then make them tell you who's side they are on. If they like the agenda... don't ever speak to them again!

[thoughtanarchist]

15. Excellent, succinct, valid point.

"The conservative agenda is and has been since the days of Reagan to destroy government and privatize everything."

All evidence supports your assertion.

Now if you want to skip ahead to the final chapter in THAT story, look at Mogadishu where there is lots of violence, a virtually nonexistent government, and a completely unfettered free market economy.

Conclusion:

The NeoCon agenda seeks to turn the US into one big Somalia.

[rucky]

12. It's all how you tell the story.

Start with the ridiculous concentration of wealth in america, and the premise is that the highest levels of politics is bought and paid for by the most wealthy and powerful. "Politicans are crooks"..."they're all paid off by special interests." Not difficult to believe.

Then go into what's at stake for the elite to maintain their wealth - even increase it - in the face of a new global economy. How do you compete with these emerging economies? China? Move jobs overseas. How do you extend the profitibility of a finite resource, like oil? We'll just leave it at that for now.

How far will they go to protect their investment? Why don't they just adapt to a changing market? because then they'd have to compete. Do you know how long it takes to gain market share in a sector? and if the sector changes, hell, the oil companies are already getting skunked on alternative energy. Manufacturing is getting skunked by China and India. Small businesses have innovation and flexibility on their side.

There's no easy way to keep this very profitable foothold that they've invested so much in building. A little group called PNAC has the answer to that problem - and it will cost corporations next to nothing. Once the program is "sold" to the people, most of the bill can be footed by taxpayers and debt.

Endless war. How convenient that 9/11 happened right after they took office. it's that "Pearl harbor" they mentioned to get this who thing rolling.

These are PNAC's words, not mine.

(you can get into LIHOP vs. MIHOP here if they're with you, so far)

or go directly to... Attack Iraq.

But here's another variable - Democracy. Over time, this is obviously an unpopular solution, but to be carried out, it must be set in place on the down-low. It also takes much longer than a single election cycle to implement. What's the solution to that?

Remember, they pretty much have unlimited resources to work with, here. All they have to do is go to the people whose interests they're protecting - in secret, of course. There you have the media spinmeisters and vicious attacks on the opposition.

(you can get into election fraud here if they're with you, so far)

Are you feeling the squeeze at home because of these policies? hell yeah. they've also found a way to remove the variable of the consumer from "free-market" capitalism. How do you do that? Big, big government. The taxpayers fund "outsourced" programs that are deemed necessary...

[Uncle Joe]

17. I imagine that is what Galileo was thinking. n/t