Yo! Any Freepers in the house?

[democrank]

For any Freepers lallygagging here at DU, could you kindly explain your deep-seated aversion to the concept of root causes? This has bugged me for a long, long time and I`m quite interested in hearing your side of the story. It causes a giant rift between us, so I beg you, tear down this wall.

When I saw folks clinging to their roofs after Hurricane Katrina, I didn`t think to blame them for not evacuating. I just asked myself...Why? What caused them to stay behind and get trapped on their roofs? When I saw a documentary about homeless child prostitutes, I didn`t demand more juvenile jails be built, I ask myself...Why? When I found out that citizens all over the globe named America the biggest threat to world peace, I didn`t smash bottles of Mediterranean olives in my rock garden, I asked myself...Why? What is it about Bush administration policies that threatens everyday global citizens? When I heard about Iraqis fighting back against the invaders, I didn`t scream "Nuke `em, kill `em." I asked myself...Why? What would have upset Iraqis enough to make them take up arms and blast back?

Why? Why do some workers go on strike? Why do some Mexicans cross the border? Why do grieving parents wear anti-war tee shirts? Why do some people wait until it`s too late before they go to emergency rooms? Why do many drug addicts stay drugged? Why can`t Palestinian farmers get to their water supply? Why are there children in India used as slaves in the silk trade? Why?

If you could free yourselves up from discussions about Bill Clinton`s sex life or the Dixie Chicks` latest CD, you might have some time to dig into serious root causes. Trust me. If you`re a suspected arsonist and your house burns down, the Fire Marshall won`t joke with you about needing a new Barco Lounger. If you`re a suspected war criminal, reporters worth their salt won`t joke with you about a pig roast. My advice? Forget the red, white and blue lip service and start rooting out the devil in the details.

[Bjornsdotter]

1. Sounds like all they talk about

...is dicks, chicks and tricks.

Cheers

[Stargazer99]

2. Why the silence?

Notice the lack of responses? Rep/Cons don't want to know why, they just want to results and it doesn't matter what route taken to get there.

[joe_sixpack]

7. Why the silence?

Are we pretending they'd actually be allowed to post their answers here?

[hadrons]

3. I've noticed a few with some decent post # counts ....

I guess slumming in the non-political forums first

[huszar02]

4. I guess I am close to being one...at least here.

I don't think the issue is that we (as you would lump right-wingers) have an aversion to root causes. In fact, some of us are quite well aware of them. Some causes we can agree with, and others we do not. Since you seem more polite than most, I see no reason to deny you a response. I typically cruise boards of all political affiliations in a continual effort to learn and expand my horizons.

Anyways, I believe that your idea of root causes is not sufficient to sway one to either end of the spectrum, because I guarantee we would lead to different root causes based on our experiences and emotions. We do ask "Why?" in many situations. Generally, we are less sympathetic and empathetic than yourselves.

For example, I'll numerically address the examples you listed in the third paragraph:

1. Workers in the West usually go on strike as a quick fix to keep or raise their incomes with minimal effort even in the face of hard times, especially if they are a major union. It is less successful in the US than other nations. Only a minority actually strike because of a pressing need caused by unsafe or unfair conditions.

2. Mexicans cross the border because their country mostly sucks. However, there is a line. It isn't fair to immigrants who use due process, or even fight in the Armed Forces without citizenship, to be passed simply because one has it bad. This would be tantamount to a person jumping a line in a soup kitchen. There are other hungry people who were there first, and there is only so much soup to give out at one time.

3. Parents wear anti-war T-Shirts out of guilt, especially if they weren't wearing them beforehand. They feel like they should "save" the lives of others, in response to the loss of their child. Much like MADD, these people act in a way as they feel they can best honor their children, in a way preventing that from happening to someone else. A normal response, if you ask me.

4. Because they don't, won't, or can't pay for earlier treatment, usually as a result of being fiscally retarded and/or ignorant.

5. There are a plethora of reasons, but I reallllly don't care unless someone administered the drugs to them as children or if they become hooked to some sort medication that was required for intense pain or some other legitimate medical need. We've grown up for years being told not to get on narcotics, because *GASP* they are harmful.

6. Because they keep sending their kids to blow up the Jews as a response to the Jews existing, and too few Palestinians, who say they deserve a state, can't even keep their fellow citizens from detonating any chances at peace. Israel wouldn't have a leg to stand on internationally if all of the Arab/Pan-Islamic peoples ceased actions against Israel.

7. India still has child slaves because in their culture, it's still a little more tolerated than slavery is over here. It's only within the last few centuries it was eliminated in the West, and its a lot harder to expect that of a nation that has only recently entered the Space Age. That's quite a large cultural gap for them to jump short of forcing them to embrace Western values. In time it will pass.

I am no stranger to the fact that everything has causes, but as you can see, we don't have the same opinions on how to interpret them.

[ProudDad]

5. Some answers to your "interpretations"

For example, I'll numerically address the examples you listed in the third paragraph:

1. Workers in the West usually go on strike as a quick fix to keep or raise their incomes with minimal effort even in the face of hard times, especially if they are a major union. It is less successful in the US than other nations. Only a minority actually strike because of a pressing need caused by unsafe or unfair conditions.

>>>>>>> They also see CEO's and other slugs' incomes increasing at precipitous rates, corporate profits ballooning out of proportion, their cost of living soaring and would like a piece of the pie THEY'RE CREATING...


2. Mexicans cross the border because their country mostly sucks. However, there is a line. It isn't fair to immigrants who use due process, or even fight in the Armed Forces without citizenship, to be passed simply because one has it bad. This would be tantamount to a person jumping a line in a soup kitchen. There are other hungry people who were there first, and there is only so much soup to give out at one time.

>>>>>>> Couldn't be because a) out here in the west -- this used to be Mexico? b) As far as the folks from the Mexican countryside are concerned, this is the country that stole their rural economy (can you say Nafta)? c) Because good american capitalists are happy to hire and exploit them?

Have you ever been to Mexico? It's a beautiful country with a majority of kind, warm and generally happy people (not as happy as Cubans but close) living in an economy with an income disparity you might wish to investigate since the U.S. is headed in that direction...a VERY few VERY rich and the rest poor.


3. Parents wear anti-war T-Shirts out of guilt, especially if they weren't wearing them beforehand. They feel like they should "save" the lives of others, in response to the loss of their child. Much like MADD, these people act in a way as they feel they can best honor their children, in a way preventing that from happening to someone else. A normal response, if you ask me.

>>>>>>> Couldn't be because they've discovered the futility of war, eh?

You right-wingers DO thrive on guilt and shame in your little authoritaian, non-reality based world-view, don't you? Those of us on the left prefer proactive effort against the wrongs in the world.


4. Because they don't, won't, or can't pay for earlier treatment, usually as a result of being fiscally retarded and/or ignorant.

>>>>>> How about because 44 FUCKING MILLION OF US CAN'T AFFORD FUCKING HEALTH CARE!!!?!?!?!?!? Do you KNOW HOW FUCKING MUCH IT COSTS to see a doctor nowdays (if you EVEN CAN FIND ONE WHO CAN SEE YOU)?????@!!!?!?!?!?


5. There are a plethora of reasons, but I reallllly don't care unless someone administered the drugs to them as children or if they become hooked to some sort medication that was required for intense pain or some other legitimate medical need. We've grown up for years being told not to get on narcotics, because *GASP* they are harmful.

>>>>>>> As someone who's on the Board of Directors of a Recovery Organization -- it's hard to kick drugs BECAUSE IT'S HARD. Also because there's fuck-all in terms of treatment options available for people who don't have about $20,000 for a 28 day start (and even THEY don't always make it!)... Also, thanks to those great capitalist in the Tobacco and Alcohol industries and the saturation of the media with pro-drug messages, it's made even tougher. If I may say so, you display a complete lack of knowledge about addiction issues.

You also display the right-winger's myopic view of society -- I've got mine, Jack, I don't do drugs so fuck you if you do -- You seem incapable of appreciating concepts like cooperation, empathy and the fact that we're all in this together.



6. Because they keep sending their kids to blow up the Jews as a response to the Jews existing, and too few Palestinians, who say they deserve a state, can't even keep their fellow citizens from detonating any chances at peace. Israel wouldn't have a leg to stand on internationally if all of the Arab/Pan-Islamic peoples ceased actions against Israel.

>>>>>>>> Who sends their kids? What percentage of the population of Palestine send their kids to blow up jews??? You right-wingers are very fond of painting an entire people with the brush of the latest Rovian talking point. I guess that happens when you live in a non-fact based reality.




7. India still has child slaves because in their culture, it's still a little more tolerated than slavery is over here. It's only within the last few centuries it was eliminated in the West, and its a lot harder to expect that of a nation that has only recently entered the Space Age. That's quite a large cultural gap for them to jump short of forcing them to embrace Western values. In time it will pass.

>>>>>>>> Guess what? There's slave labor here in the U.S. too. It's in the prison system where inmates are basically worked for pennies a day to boost the profits of certain well-placed corporations... A National Disgrace!!!!



--------------------------


A suggestion to my right-wing brothers and sisters: Step away from Faux News and bush press conferences and try thinking for yourself for a change...at the VERY least check your facts...or, HELL, just get some facts.

[noonwitch]

6. That poster was being polite, did you have to respond with such anger?

He didn't swear at anyone here, did you have to swear at him? I'm not being a prude, but be polite to visitors, please?

[ProudDad]

10. There's nothing "impolite"

about using descriptive language about important subjects...

By the by, where did I swear at the poster???

Also it's damn well time to be increasingly impolite to right-wing ideas...they deserve it.

What's "polite" about dissing decent hard-working Union members in the U.S., the entire Mexican countryside and its people, women whose children have been killed in bush's fucking war, anyone who can't afford health insurance (ALL 44 MILLION PLUS OF US!!), everyone who's become addicted, every Arab person in Palestine and the nation of India.

Given that, I think my response was rather mild and measured in the face of that level of provacation...

[Sammy Pepys]

8. Be prepared to be run out on a rail here....

But thanks for the polite responses.

[huszar02]

9. You're Welcome.

I stand by my views, but, in the spirit of good debate and regardless of affiliation, I believe it is important to remain civil. Thank you for your comment.

[ProudDad]

11. If someone comes into my house

and pisses on my carpet...it rather taxes my ability to remain "civil"...

See my post #10...

on edit:

I must admit that I admire your cajones -- to post such drivel on a slightly left of center site took some balls.

I am curious about what you are doing here?? I don't have any problem with you viewing or even posting here but I'm interested in what you are after.

If you're trying to persuade anyone here to embrace the views you posted in #4, good luck! We've all heard those opinions incessantly from right-wing nutballs and have pretty universally rejected them as, well basically, EVIL.

[Patchuli]

12. While I disagree with most of what you said

I too appreciate seeing a response. My older sister is a party repub. She is also rather selfish and quick to blame others for their misfortunes. I on the other hand, am the marshmallow hearted liberal who wants peace and justice for all. I do find that rightwingers have some neuroses about that "I got mine, screw you Jack" kind of mindset. I have to shame my sister into remembering she's supposed to have a heart in her chest cavity. I hope that we can teach you guys to be kinder...

[uppityperson]

14. why are you here? Here are some more answers.

You are indeed less sympathetic and empathetic, showing by your answers that you do not care. This I see as a root cause to many of the problems. Some care about others, some do not. Why are you here?

1. Workers in the west go on strike to maintain liveable salaries, health care, safe working conditions. They go on strike to continue to work against that culture of slavery here in the USA.

2. Mexicans cross the border to find work that pays enough to live on. That is often working at below minimum wage, but still is better than no job. Their country is beautiful, has many wonderful things about it. I disagree that the country sucks, have you visited it? Where, why, what do you think about where you were?

3. I don't think of it so much as guilt but as having had their eyes opened. They have shown that they can take in new information, process it, and change a previously held opinion based on this new information. This is called learning.

4. Do you know how many people have no health insurance? Do you know how many people wait on treatment because they cannot afford it? "fiscally retarded and/or ignorant" seems a very insulting way of saying you are poor, too poor to run off to a doctor, if you have one, and can get in, as soon as you have a sniffle and demand antibiotics.

5. Did you know that narcotics are harmful, that crystal meth is harmful? Did you know that these drugs are addicting? Did you know that meth labs are highly toxic, and that meth abusers run up a huge tab in society by what they do to get the money for the drug, the lack of work/incidence of harm they do while on the drug, the health care problems they cause themselves that society has to pay for? Did you know any of this?

You say you don't care unless "they become hooked to some sort medication that was required for intense pain or some other legitimate medical need." Why would you care if they get hooked if it was for a legitimate need, but not care if it was for recreation? wow.

6. What percentage of Palestinians send their kids to blow up Jews? What percentage of those killed this last week do violent acts against Israel? How many just want to live in peace? How many people here in the USA support the occupation of Iraq, how many who don't will be held responsible in the future? Should they be?

7. Speaking of Western values, are these the ones that pay workers minimal wages, make them work in unsafe conditions (example: Tysons). What about those Mexicans who are working picking berries for minimal amounts? Slavery is in the USA too, though one could argue not true slavery since you cannot sell the offspring, but many people do not have the freedom to move, to have a job that pays well enough to be able to afford to go to the doctor when sick, etc.

[POAS]

13. I'm reading the posts by huszar02 and I can't

find any of the following traits exhibited:

1. Respect
2. Empathy
3. Introspection
4. Kindness

Can anyone point out examples in his writings? I'm sure I'm just missing them.