What if .........

[Stinky The Clown]

I'm as far from an expert on things Israeli or things Lebanese, so what I'm about to say could be said to come out of my ass ... or whatever you want to say about it .... but what if .....

What if there was actual dialog in the area?

What if the Lebanese and the Israeli governments were engaged in honest communications? What if the Lebanese government asked for - and received - outside help in ridding itself of Hezbollah? Would that have prevented what we're seeing today?

What if the Israelis made a more honest attempt at living in peace with - and finding a real, secure place for - the Palestinians?

What if the US played a more serious role in all of this - as it attempted to do when Clinton was the top man?

Would these and other similar efforts to bring actual harmony to the region serve to both make the area safe for ordinary people and serve to further box in Iran? And Syria?

Why must EVERYTHING be done at the point of a gun or in the crosshairs of a bombsight?

And the biggest 'what if'?

What if there was no religion? (We still miss you, John.)

[LynzM]

1. I don't know about the dialogue....

But for some interesting musing about what if there were no religion... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3865536

[Warpy]

2. Certainly the region was more peaceful when the US had

statesmen at the top, or at least people who hired statesmen to negotiate. This idea that we can have an overgrown, swaggering frat boy who is used to having people jump when he snaps his fingers for another beer make an impression on combatants has been disparaged forever.

As for religion, I don't find religion to be the problem. I find charismatic men who are morally certain to be the problem. I don't know what constitutes that sort of charisma, nor do I understand what causes ordinarily sensible people to take leave of their senses and follow them, but that is the phenomenon that gives religion such a bad name.

Subtract all the pompadoured hucksters, second comings, prophets, and other creeps, and I doubt religion itself would be much of a problem.

Of course, it might become so much less interesting that few people would bother.

[Stinky The Clown]

3. It has always seemed to me that religion is the biggest cause of conflict

and war ....... and has been for the entire time man has walked upright.

[Totally Committed]

5. Organized Religion -- especially the Fundamentalist flavor --

is the root cause of so many of the world's ills right now, I can barely see a church, a temple, a shrine, or a mosque without cringing. I mean no disrespect to those who are religious. I, myself, was once a true believer and attended church weekly. But, my "faith" has taken a different, more spiritual direction as I've aged, and I now "worship" He/She/It/or None in private and in my own way.

If there is a God, I cannot help but think and feel He/She/It is cringing right along with me. Too much horror being done in the name of religion these days. Too much hate is being legitimized in the name of religion these days.

I miss John, too, and "imagine" right along with him in this regard.

TC

[Stinky The Clown]

6. Your 'religion' and mine are very similar ....

..... I, too, was once an active participant. There was even a time (as I am sure is true for 90% of Catholic high school boys) I considered being a priest!

Now, my religion is of my own invention. It is, as you say, spiritual and very private. I have a direct pipeline to the diety in which I believe (I am very much still a believer).

My religion and basic humanity share the same prime rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And I really, honestly do try to live my life that way. I fail often, but I try nonetheless.

[Totally Committed]

7. Ah yes, "Do unto others as you would have done unto you."

If we could only all live that way, what a great world it would be. I try, as you do, to live this way as much as humanly possible.

Another thing about organized religion, especially the Fundie kind (in this country) is they want their religion in my life. I absolutely reject that, and proudly wear the claok of heretic, as they see me. Their religion is THEIRS. My life is MINE. They need to get their religion the hell away from my life... out of my womb... away from my bedroom... apart from my science... off my Constitution, and OUT OF MY FACE. Period.

Same goes for the Taliban, the Wahabi, the Sharia and all other relious entites bent on controlling society (women and children, in particular) and the laws they live under.

This is not religion, it's subjegation of the worst kind, and I resent it with all my heart.

TC

[jonnyblitz]

15. that's what I believe. nt

[Totally Committed]

4. The Israeli v. Everyone else in the region Conflict has been going on

for millenia now. The Holocaust did little to eradicate, and I feel, has only antagonized the situation inasfaras the Iraelis feeling entitled to feel as they do. They killed Rabin when he dared go so far as making a legitimate effort to do just as you wonder about in your OP. And, being absolutely no fan of Ariel Sharon, I still think his "stroke" that came on so suddenly after he formed his pwn Party dedicated to doing exactly as you wonder about in your OP was REALLY conveniently timed to derail any hope of peace-making any time soon.

Olmert, the current PM was the mayor of Jerusalem, when that horrible Iraeli-Palestinian Holy-site-on-the-mount debacle occurred, and was an absolute prick about it. If you go back and read what he said about the Palestinians and their rights to worship at that site, your skin will crawl. I never saw him as the centrist/peacemaker that most did when he ascended to the post of PM. I have never liked him, and have always thought he was nothing but a paler shade of Bibi Netanyahu.

There will be no "peace" there.... not unless someone like Shimon Peres steps in and is given a free hand to negotiate one. My guess is if he even attempts it, his health will take a marked downturn, or he'll die an untimely death. Just a guess, but I bet I'm right.

There is a vibrant peace movement in Israel, but those who would seek to push their more Zionist agenda are far stronger (read: hold power). I am not optomistic about a negotiated peace between Israel and any other state in the fray at the moment. I believe we are only days or hours away from all-out war there, and THAT's why Condi is not there on the ground yet.

Just a couple of thoughts early in the morning.

TC

[dipsydoodle]

8. Yes , but what if

the Priminister of The Lebanon simply sent the Israeli Priminister a note to the effect :

" OK Sunshine - we'll we decided we should all put our hands up to be Hezbollah. Within two days the entire population will at your border carrying white flags of surrender. We expect you to treat us all as prisoners of war within Israeli territory. You'll need to cloth and feed us for the next hundred years - we've leased out country to Iran for that period. So don't forget to say a greaat big hello to your neighbors and also don't forget that their air force is somewhat larger than yours so maybe now's the time to learn to behave yourselves"

[Totally Committed]

9. You honestly think that will ever happen???

Assad will NEVER capitulate to Israel that way -- it would be a death sentence for him, literally and figuratively -- he'd never live to govern another day. So why even consider it as an option? Any argument can be won by changing the parameters... look ar how the Republicans do it. I just think we're wasting out time considering the inconiderable. It ain't gonna happen.

ANd, can you imagine any Arab country ALLOWING a capitulation such as that, even if it began? Iran would have planes in the air strafing anyone withe a white flag within minutes, and the rest of the Arab countries would back them.

Let's get real. This is the world we've got... let's get savvy to it, or we risk the reality of becoming the bunch of pie-in-the-sky-ers the other side thinks we are. We need to out-savvy them, and we can't do it as long as we are thinking about solutions that are undoable.

TC

[welshTerrier2]

10. you can't negotiate with hopelessness

Hezbollah succeeds politically because they promise hope to the hopeless ... the same is true with Hamas and the Palestinians ...

do i call for talks now to stop the killing? of course ... but that is the most temporary of solutions ... nothing will change until the Palestianians and perhaps the Lebanese see a path to better lives ...

the real solution in the region is not to eliminate religion or negotiate a political settlement or to call for a cease fire or give backs of land or any of those things ... everyone one of those is important in some way ...

but the solution lies elsewhere ... it is time for the US and the rest of the international community to lift up the poor in the region ... an elderly Jewish guy i know objected when i said this at a discussion group ... he said "you'll be rewarding them; look how they act!"

he can only see more weapons and more war and more killing of innocent civilians on both sides ... wealthier nations could make a real difference in the ME ... we could help with infrastructure ... we could build roads and bridges and schools and water supplies ... we could send "the Peace Corps" ... we could commit ourselves to peace instead of focusing only on selling weapons to Israel ...

this is not about either supporting or criticizing Israel ... frankly, neither of those approaches leads anywhere but to more of the same ... nobody wants that ... well, except perhaps the US ... judge us by our deeds ...

[Totally Committed]

11. Absolutely the ultimate truth in all of this...

The fiercest enemy is one with nothing to lose. There is no negotiation with hoplessness. Sage wisdom, for sure!

TC

[Stinky The Clown]

13. Read this link .......

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?s=c682670e6f2b63f42df309763f7215f5&showtopic=57881&st=840&p=1235270&#entry1235270

It was posted by teevee celebrity chef Tony Bourdain. He was in Beruit when the bombing started, doing a taping for a show on Discovery Travel Channel.

I found the post compelling as it was written by someone who appears to be pretty apolitical, but also points out that there *is* hope in Lebanon. Or at least there was. I fear that what's happening now may well set the whole country back 20 years or more.

[Totally Committed]

14. Unbelieveable!

Thanks for sharing that. I hope they all get home safely, and I hope all around them remain safe as well. What a horrible situation!

TC

[Quakerfriend]

12. Yes, dialog is crucial. As I heard a prof/expert in ME

politics say this am on the radio: 'The US must have SOME dialog with IRAN and SYRIA if anyone wants this to end- Not, Egypt and Jordan (as was the case this week).

Can you believe they simply refuse to talk with Iran and Syria? Makes me think they just want WAR, and nothing but WAR.