I bet you $1500 if we could find the posters of "hate Israel" ... it would

[applegrove]

be a neocon. Or someone wedged by neocons into black and white.

Cause we have not seen it here in the DU. Except for links to outside articles that then get called on their bent.

Don't ya get it? You are being wedged. Most everyone things Israel has a right to defend itself (though they don't quite get this). Half of Lebanon want Hizbollah out! out! out!.

We support Louise Arbour's UN statements on avoidable civilian casualties should be prosecuted if they happen with willy-nilly bombs. Because we know Israel can pretty much hit the nipple, the third from the left, on a nursing bitches stomach...any where in Southern Lebanon.

Ignore the pot stirrers. Or the DUers who have fallen for it. Don't ya know..stage two of Rove 30 year empire is to get a small percentage of very pro-Israel voters to flip to Repukes?

Ignore the idiots and speak for yourself. And don't let anyone change your thinking. This was all easily avoidable. By cutting aid and not replacing it with anything (like Saudi & Iranian step ups in long term aid).. Bush and Canada and Europe pretty much promised that Hizbollah would start a war or support Hamas in starting a war...because peace means the end for them. Iran and Saudi Arabia are very rich. Canada gives aid to like 120 countries (rich but only 30 Million people middle class). Saudi Arabia and Iran could easily have filled in the missing dollars. They are in fact the richest countries in the world (at least the elites are). Don't fall for it.

Hizbollah may have had to "create a crisis" in order to renew their popularity in Lebanon. It was obvious. It was expected. Reaction would be just as it has been. The world is the same as its always been under Bush. When Rove targets your particular group for wedging.. you will feel afraid until the ends of your soul by what would make you afraid the most. This has been going on since 2001, but earlier too. If you were gay or Christian or whatever. Now they hit you. And create conflict at home re: Israel's reaction.

Don't buy it. Courage. When this is over.. America's long term support of Israel will be the same as it has always been. No need to panic. It will be okay. For you. Not for the civilians on the ground there... but for you. Nothing will change. Unless you allow them to change you.

You don't have to choose between Israel and all the democratic values you hold dear. You don't

[dufrenne]

1. to say the hate "Israel"

crew are some sort of neocon creation is far too simplistic. The fact is, they exist on the very far right and very far left. From Buchanan to Counterpunch, there is a general revulsion with Israel, who can do no right in their eyes. No, the hate Israel people here come from a long tradition of such thought on the left, prevelant in much leftist academic and political thought. It's not a surprise that more socialist Europe feels for the Palestinian cause and doesn't trust Israel. Conversely, on the far right, jews are similarly hate (e.g. Nazi Germany) or just being used (Christian rapturists). Hate Israel exists...it is no mere creation.

[JuniperLea]

3. I hate all warmongers

and I do not discriminate in that regard.

[dufrenne]

5. Warmongers

seek war. I'll say this...if you could offer Israel everlasting peace in exchange for all its weapons tomorrow...it would gladly take that offer...as would most countries...except that is...for warmongers.

[JuniperLea]

34. Yes, warmongers seek war

This current battle was not necessary. There were other means of getting those soldiers back rather than lobbing bombs. Anyone who blasts the hell out of another country for no good reason is a warmonger.

It is just stupid to start this kind of crap in times like these when there are so many nuclear weapons in the world and so many itchy trigger fingers. Just plain stupid.

[stranger81]

54. Israel is demonstrably uninterested in "everlasting peace"

Israel has clearly demonstrated its motives to be (1) ethnic cleansing; (2) land grabs; and (3) aggrandizing further territory to secure additional water rights (as we're witnessing in Lebanon right now).

There's a clear aggressor in this situation, and it's not Hizbollah.

[applegrove]

8. And I said.. I'm glad the UN made statements to the effect that if you

willy nilly allow for civilian casualties.. you will be held accountable.

[jonnyblitz]

18. so do I and I don't care who they are.

at times like this I wished I believed in karma and that it were a real thing. I will leave it at that.

[JuniperLea]

36. I wish you believed too, jonnyblitz

I've seen it happen and I hope to see it happen again.

[applegrove]

6. But does it exist in the numbers we see on the DU? Cause yeah there

are Palestinian activists.. just like there are Israeli ones (I could get old quotes from each side). But what are they doing on the DU all of a sudden? That is my question. Cause they have always been fringe groups and radicals. Both right in their own minds. Both wrong in terms of reality. Like frindges always are.

[dufrenne]

13. Applegrove

it's a really good question you've asked. The question of Israel has always been divisive on the left for a long long time. There's a proud tradition of New York leftist intellectuals and others who are pro-Israel, then you have those who are not. It's been a battle on the left for a long long time...and DU is merely reflecting that battle. It's not unexpected and not due to any conspriacy. Even among friends of mine, I see the battle. Go to all the leftist sites and you'll see it. That being said, most on the left I think support the Palestinian cause, but there is a strong dissenting voice that is very pro-Israel.

[applegrove]

19. Sweetheart.. Israel is in the news.. because of policies. A concerted

group of policies. YEAH baby.. when wars start things heat up. But why did this war start? How come.. when Israel and Canada and the USA and Europe all stopped funding Palestine's long term projects.. how come.. no effort to the Iranians? It isn't a conspiracy to say that Israel is an issue and it is an issue that favours Bush. You pull money out of a daycare centre.. and all hell brakes loose (not enough staff).

It isn't a conspiracy to say that Lieberman has been targetted by the GOP of flipping. All sorts of democratic leadership..of narrow groups.. have been targetted for flipping. Some have flipped. Some have not.

This is the way things have been.

Am I insane to say Rove works in percentages? Because that is all the GOP has done for the last 20 years. Are there no wedge issues? Please.. there are wedge issues. And this is one of them.

"oh no they wouldn't!". Oh yes they would. The GOP has only political polices. Not policies other than ones that will benefit them ..in their estimation.. in the future.

I am not saying Hizbollah is not being itself. Trying to survive when half of Lebanese were talking about something else in terms of army.. a few months ago.. because they had peace. Am I saying Hamas and Hizbollah initiated this in concert with Bush? NOPE. They did it to survive. They upped the anti. Israel protecting itself from new forsm of terror? Is that a conspiracy? Nope. Israel protects itself from everything.

This is all predictable. And normal for these times.

* doesn't care if war breaks out.. in fact on occasion he and his ilk look for it... and that isn't a conspiracy. That is just a new reality. War is a good thing to some. Get with it. Richard Perle wanted all to get with new norms. Not fighting for peace.. with every breath..and with every step Israel, Palestine or foreign aid takes.. is a new norm.

[dufrenne]

21. Applegrove

I'm not saying that people can't take advantage of the current divides among people on the issue. But to say that such a divide doesn't exist on the left is simply not true. Is that what you're saying? To have a wedge, there needs to be some space already to drive it through. Trust me, that space exists on the left already, Rove or not. And by the way, no offense, I'm not your sweetheart - I find such language condescending.

[applegrove]

35. Point well taken on my use of language. But I never said there were

not divides. Simply that a sorry outbreak of boys with toys need not be taken as a policy change or change in belief systems. Simply that it is more of the same that we have seen ore these years. What divides us will be let go... what we can agree on.. will be diminished. That is your government. Not mine.

Over time such frequencies of war and such.. warp us all. I'm saying..don't be warped. The people on the ground whether they like Hizbollah or not.. are the ones suffering. We are just the boy's toys over here in the Americas.

[formernaderite]

30. No one hates Israel as a people...many of us deeply dislike their policies

it's a bit like how the world views Americans. My oldest kids have travelled alot over the last few years, in both south America and Europe. The world hates our policies and our leader...but not the American people. I am deeply disturbed by the paranoid reactions of the Israeli government. Tit for tat has NEVER solved or resolved a confrontation.

[zanne]

41. Could Israel ever be wrong?

You're singing the "my country, right or wrong" tune, only you're singing about Israel. What would it take for you to think that Israel is acting as an aggressor? Anything?

[Zhade]

47. Those on the left mostly hate the Israeli GOVERNMENT and its crimes.

Not the existence of Israel itself - which was founded in blood and betrayal, but the Israelis living there largely had no part in that and don't deserve to pay for those crimes.

[jseankil]

2. Did you poll Lebanon? I'd like to see the data.

You said "half of Lebanon want Hizbollah out", where did you get that percentage? Was that before the current bombing or after it?

[dufrenne]

4. I'll tell you,

having Lebanese in my family, I wouldn't be surprised...a good 30-40 percent of the country is Christian, and while they have nationalistic tendencies, wouldn't shed a tear if Hezbollah disappeared tomorrow, even after the bombing.

[jseankil]

7. I'm not looking for guesses, I want data, polls.

That said we've gone from 50% who want the Lebanese out to 30%.

[dufrenne]

10. I'm

sure polls right now will swing as quickly as emotions. Whatever the number, it's significant - again, many people would not cry if Hezbollah disappeared. Now, are they glad that Israel is dealing the blow? Who knows. It's like the Iraq war. You're happy Saddam's gone, but is it worth the cost?

[jseankil]

15. Hezbollah's social programs are often better than the Lebanese governments

I think you are over estimating how many want Hezbollah out. Many feel indebted to them as they are credited with protecting them in the 80's from the Israelis. They have built schools and medical faculties, they are not corrupt like many government officials.

Building up the Lebanese government could have defeated Hezbollah, I fear now that their ideology may grow.

[dufrenne]

17. Certainly

but I think people would rather have a strong Lebanese government, not beholden to Hezbollah, that could provide such programs itself, rather than having to depend on the armed militia of one of Lebanon's political parties. I'm not saying people don't like the fact that Hezbollah fights the cause against Israel and can be helpful socially. That being said, people understand also that as long as they have Hezbollah armed on the border., there will never be peace with Israel

[jseankil]

20. Let's hope Hezbollah isn't voted in as the leading party next election./nm

nm

[dufrenne]

22. lol

that would be a whole lotta fun for the region...not... ;)

[applegrove]

29. I agree. Lebanese were dreaming and stretching. And wanting..

what so many have experienced around the world in the last 50 years. Lebanese being educated and business oriented and migrating everywhere... no shit so many have returned to the home country when there was finally peace. No shit at least 100,000 probably 4 times that are European, Canadian, American citizens. No shit they would want an all volunteer army that reflected the norms of their new found democracy. No shit that Hizbollah found that terrifying and baited Israel.

Very sad.

Hizbollah, funded by Iran, neither of whom has any need of peace in Lebanon (not to mention Israel/Palestine).. using terrorist tactics to get something going.

Very sad.

And that is pretty much how the world sees it. No matter how much disgust you feel at the manner of Israel's responce and civilian casualties.

So, for those who are offended by the "anti-Israel" talk. Just take it with a grain of salt. Hard when you see war on people. But in terms of personal politics.. this isn't something that changes dynamics of America or Dems or Repukes. This is a dirty personal war by small freaks who want endless power continued war has given them. Time magazine even said..that Palestinians were begining to rue the day when they voted for Hamas. Because of how little it could attract in terms of support or movement forward.

[applegrove]

24. Which is what Hizbollah wanted. Time magazine says so. They were

loosing power as Lebanon found its wings. Now there is trouble.

And yes.. social programs and food and radical Islamist thought go hand in hand. Along with a whole shitload of Wahabi and Iranian petro-dollars. So why when long term foreign aid stopped to Palestine.. why not ask these same benefactors to step up? Saudis are so rich. They have so much money.

Bupkiss. No long term funding by Islam for Palestine. Only for the terrorists and their good works. Only religously affiliated funding.

Kinda reminds you of home .. doesn't it.

[applegrove]

11. Yes it was. And that is telling. Half of Lebannon.. wanted peace so

bad.. after ... what.. 50 years.. of war...when nobody wanted anything from them specifically.. but gave them war.

Half of Lebannon.. wanted Hizbollah to be replaced with a democratic Lebannese Army. Now perhaps the numbers have changed. And that was the whole point of baiting Israel. To change the numbers and remind Lebanese that it was Hizbollah who finally got Israel out of Lebannon.

[rman]

65. Hezbollah has a minority presence in the Lebanese parliament

So a majority of Lebanese does not support Hezbollah as a political movement, and presumably fewer still support Hezbollah's terrorist actions.

[tocqueville]

9. I think you are wrong about the Hezbollah

that the leaders are a bunch of assholes, we can all agree. But the reports I see on European TV and what I read on other medias on-line show that they have a total support from the Shiite community which is the biggest minority in Lebanon. They have even support among the Sunnis because they defy Israel. They have support WITHIN Israel (the northen region contains the majority of Israeli-Arabs, the Nazareth incident and the local reactions are symptomatic) and the Maronites don't follow the previous war pattern, accepting now Shiite refugees in their Christian homes...

The main reason for the Hezbollah/Hamas aggressivity is because they won elections and see the quagmire in Iraq.
Besides Iran, their inspiration, is defying the world...

The Hezbollah didn't have to renew their popularity. They were underestimated by the Israeli and they went right ahead into the Hezbollah trap...

[applegrove]

12. But why the debate in Lebannon about whether or not to disband them?

The debate of the last year. After they got the Syrians to back off our out .. sorta? They were democratic. They were empowered. They were thinking what they wanted for the future. Half of them were for replacing Hizbollah with Lebannese forces.

[Dhalgren]

14. I think that you are spot on! This has been a huge error on

Israel's part. Let's hope that they extricate themselves before it is too late (if it isn't already)...

[dufrenne]

16. I disagree completely

I don't think its ever been in Israel's nature to underestimate any of its foes. Quite the contrary, I think Hezbollah underestimated Israel's reaction to the incursion. It makes sense - Iran didn't want Hezbollah to show their card just yet. Now Israel is very aware of its tactics, movements, numbers and weaponary. Certainly the group has much support in Lebanon, but these will tend to be pro-Syrian groups. Lebanese nationals, again, do not cry for them. Again, I have many Lebanese Christian in my family who would love to see Hezbollah gone...that being said, they would certainly welcome refugees in their homes....because its the right thing to do.

[tocqueville]

23. But it is the opinion of many international observers

nobody thought that the Hezbollah could attack a Israeli ship for example and that the resistance to Israeli incursions would be so fierce and costly for the IDF.

Sharon promised once that the Lebanon question was to be settled in 48 hours. It took 18 years to Israel to get out..

I am sorry, but I think that there is a lot of whisful thinking, that was my point.

[applegrove]

25. Wishfull thinking that pro & anti Israel people will take a step back..

and say there are things going on here. Civilians should not be targetted by Israel... neither should Israel be baited by Hizbollah looking for some new meaning that wasn't apparent in the peace and freedom those poor Lebanese saw..for a bit.. for a time..

Why the hell would Iran want Israel solved? I mean they offered to make a deal with * in 2003. Surely it involved enough leeway to build their own nuclear bombs in exchange for peace (at least a deal that could then be ignored once they had the bomb.. cause pretty much nobody has to worry about anybody when they have the bomb). And then nobody could ever touch them.

Israel serves a purpose.. as harsh as life has been for Palestinians and as awful as 'no right to return' sounds to thousands of families. It serves a purpose the same as any bogeyman serves to radical regimes in the middle east. Please. Where does the funding come from. Iran. Was Saddam too. Saudis may have sorta cleaned up their act.

How could Bush build a christian coalition on hatred of gays alone? No.. they needed something real. Abortion is real. And awful. (In my mind necessary until humanity comes up with better health care and better drugs).

Iran wants its "real" issues too. Palestine is the big one. Can the USA really be blamed for the internal horrific distribution of wealth in the middle east? They are only a part.

It is all very sordid. And all very loud. I just hope we all remember that we..as people have not lost ... what the civilians on the ground have lost. And remember that angry words will always accompany complicated needs of one group... another.. and another. And none of this..the needs of Hizbollah or Israel or Iran should be lost in this.

And we shouldn't personalize something that is so indemic to the middle east. And we should support the UN in their demands that smart bombs can avoid civilians. And not feel.. that when we are all so loud..that we are anything other than reacting ... perhaps against each other... and that it serves a purpose to the GOP... as war and emotional fallout.. always does (unless it is like Katrina or Paul Wellstone's funeral or evacuees from Lebanon being treated like shit this week... emotional connection is only for when it serves to divide us from each other in the minds of the President who choose not to push peace or pre-emptive peace).

[tocqueville]

28. I agree completely with you on the above

I think that the "personalization" you are talking about depends on the very one-sided approach in the US regarding this question. Criticism against the own government policies that you can read in Israeli papers and sometimes representing a broad opinion in Israel isn't even considered. Only hard-liners have had the "right
opinion".

Europeans have in general a more balanced approach depending on long time involvement in the region and a lot of personal ties created by history. Here on DU the discussion has been very refreshing when let free on GD... Of course there are statements on both sides that are sometimes out of order.

I think that the consensus would be to call for a cease-fire, swap of prisoners and negotiations. And I don't see in what this policy makes one an anti-semite.

[applegrove]

31. But we disagree on what the firecracker was. To me it was Hamas

using kidnapping as a terrorist tool. In a way that was aggressive. Digging under an outpost and killing two and kidnapping one..dragging that 19 year old back through the tunnel... to hold the death of a kid over a community? That is terroism. The "metrics" of the fear that would inspire is big. That is al Qaeda terrorism. And though I do not agree on Israel's responce re: civilian targets.. I think they have shown intolerance to any terrorism. And I think news articles have shown that the baiting was intentional and meant to undo the status quo .. not only in Palestine but in Lebanon too. Lebanon being a democracy of sorts all of a sudden (and Hizbollah being marginalized).

[tocqueville]

38. Yes it was the Hamas

but you could say that cutting all funding to the Palestinians and marginalizing Abbas wasn't very smart either.
The shelling on the beach played probably a role too. We could go back and look for fire crackers since the creation of Israel and even before... it's meaningless.

it's not the point. The point is to find ways to defuse the situation.

[rman]

66. key word: minority

Hezbollah's "popularity" is as limited as Bush's "popularity".

[brmdp3123]

26. I've seen plenty of very strong anti-Israel sentiment here on DU.

Very disturbing.

[adriennui]

33. the anti-israel diatribes

sadden and scare me. they defy all that i believe is logical. we've endured decades of terrorism by palestinian fanatics....yet the victim (israel) has become the hated.
this is truly schizophrenic and irrational, i would expect this thinking from stormfront or the KKK....but liberals?
the more israel is vilified, the more passionate i become in my defense. israel is always singled out by many countries as being the biggest threat to world peace. let's see the results if irael ceases to exist...more chaos and hatred.
full disclosure...i am a liberal and a non-practicing jewish woman. this week i've donated money to israeli organizations.....that's how strongly i feel.

[brmdp3123]

39. I'm with you all the way.

[Josh]

45. Me, too

nt

[jonnyblitz]

57. thank god your orwellian view is in the minority.

in your world the aggressors are the good guys and the victims of their aggression are the bad guys and you call US schizophrenic and irrational?!? :rofl: :rofl:

hell a good chunk of jewish folk don't even support this crap! I guess we American's who don't support the war in Iraq are schizophrenic and irrational, too.

i have truly stepped into the world of George Orwell!! :crazy:

put down the crack pipe and turn off FOX NEWS, PLEASE!!

I love it when crazy people call me crazy!!

[Behind the Aegis]

58. actually....you are in the minority...

The leftists who hate Israel, while trying to jockey for power, are still nothing more than vocal distraction.

We don't have to support everything Israel says or does, but it doesn't stop the wackos on the far-right and the far-left from their banter; although, they hate Israel for different reasons, or so it would seem. Being supportive of Israel is not being being supportive of chaos and destruction, any more than being supportive of a separate Palestinian nation is anti-Semitic.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

60. In the US, regretablly so, but not worldwide.

The US is one of the few countries the majority of whose populace support Israel in whatever it chooses to do, although there are rather more whose governments do; but worldwide its actions are quite rightly condemned by a sizeable majority.

[CTyankee]

63. I'm getting frustrated. I hear the left that I agree with on so much

like the war in Iraq and also internal politics in the U.S. and it's like we don't exist in the same country.

I am not Jewish. My husband is (a convert)as is his son and daughter. My granddaughters are Jewish.

In this conflict I feel that Israel had no choice but to defend itself with a strong military defense. They are surrounded by enemies. What does the world want them to do, commit suicide?

People are forgetting that in World War II the U.S. waged total war on Japan and Germany. We demanded unconditional surrender, nothing less. Total war is total war. We firebombed Dresden and Hiroshima. And of course we dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. That is what we did to dictators who were determined to destroy us. When Israel does this to their enemies, why are we so shocked?

I know I am in the minority on DU. I am far, far to the left on many issue here. On this I have to take Israel's side. I guess I owe it to my granddaughters (and I know that seems a bit strange).

[Josh]

64. I feel the same way -

until Israel gets brought up I always feel at home, then people start defending Hezbollah and people who target Israeli civilians and I just want to quit or stay away for a few days.

I support Israel, but in that support it doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything they do, and I feel absolutely terrible about how many civilians are getting killed in Lebanon.

BUT very few people here seem to get the greyness of all of these issues. They don't care that Lebanon went across the Israeli border, violating the 2000 ceasefire, and snatched two soldiers. They don't care that Hezbollah sets up camp in and around civilian areas, meaning that they are putting them in danger when Israel retaliates.

They don't care that Israel drops leaflets and gives three hour warnings before it begins bombing areas. I know it's not much, but when Hezbollah targets civilians (and ONLY civilians; there's no qualifier here), they don't drop leaflets or give warnings, they just drop bombs and give death.

They don't care. Israel can do no right. Hezbollah is a terrorist organisation, recognised the world over as such, even by the civilians living in Lebanon and its government. Even by the UN and the EU - hardly bastions of pro-Israel sentiment.

But they don't care. The news comes out that Israel and the US and EU agree that best case scenario is a disarmed Hezbollah, because ultimately detroying it politically as well seems possible.

People here say "Israel should disarm!!" and they say it so loudly it frightens me.

I am a Jew. My late grandmother was in a concentration camp. Until the creation of Israel the only Jew worth anything in this world was a victim, because that's all that Jews were good at being, that was the only way they got any sympathy in the world.

Now there is a Jewish state, a heavily armed military titan, and it is surrounded by enemies, enemies that actively call for it to be wiped off the Earth.

And then there's Hezbollah SPECIFICALLY, who also call for the worldwide eradication of the Jews.

People here don't care. They say Israel should give up its nukes, disarm, give back the borders that it took (in a war they didn't start after a previous war they didn't start), and that the US should stop arming them.

As if Israel disarming wouldn't OBVIOUSLY mean the END of Israel.

But no, the fact that Israel is surrounded by people who want its destruction doesn't mean they'd ACTUALLY go through with it if they had the chance, only that they are standing up for the Palestinians, which is bullshit because they've never truly lifted a finger to help them.

But alas, most people here dont' care, because Israel can do no right.

Sometimes it's so hard to get people to listen to you, it's just easier to give up. I know I'm close, I just hope I'm not quite there.

[JuniperLea]

37. Anti-Israel? Or pro-peace?

There is a difference.

[brmdp3123]

40. Anti-Israel, as I said.

If you haven't seen them, you're not looking.

[JuniperLea]

42. I have family in Israel

And I assure you, I'm reading all related threads. I've seen no ad hominid hate toward Israel. I have seen some disgust and outrage at their actions. I trust this isn't what you're talking about.

[Marie26]

44. Try the I/P forum

That's where the most hateful stuff gets moved.

[adriennui]

46. i could give you the names of the most virulent

haters., but i'm sure you'll cross paths with them eventually.

[JuniperLea]

48. I've been all over the I/P threads...

I see nothing ad hominid... can you give a link to a thread?

[Zhade]

50. Feel free to just link to the threads. We can find them, if they exist.

NT!

[jonnyblitz]

51. haha..I know I would be one of the first ones on your list.

I have been reading and most likely responding to your posts, i forget, for sure ,because there are quiet of few of you with the same simplistic schtick ("if you are against the Israeli govt, you are for the terrorists"). but you can use my name I don't care,I give you permission. People know what is what that are informed and have been paying attention. :hi:

[Zhade]

49. Anti-the-country-of-Israel, or anti-Israeli government?

I confess to seeing NONE of the former, and a lot of the latter - rightfully so, IMHO.

[Behind the Aegis]

55. well...

If you don't see it, does this mean it doesn't exist? I have seen PLENTY of "Anti-the-country-of-Israel" posts, some of the more 'colorful' ones include things like, "FUCK ISRAEL!," "Israelis aren't civilized enough to have their own country.," "Israel is a mistake that should be corrected.," and the wonderful, "The fact is Israel was formed out of terrorism and ethnic cleansing. In my opinion it not only has no right to exist, but the entire world that allowed it to exist for so long owes the Palestinian people (Jews, Christians, Muslims and whatever else, alike) an enormous apology." Do those sound like anti-Israeli government to you?

[Zhade]

62. "Israelis aren't civilized enough to have their own country" does not, no.

I honestly missed those comments. I find them reprehensible (although it IS true that Israel was founded in blood, terrorism and treachery, I DON'T think the current inhabitants should be in any way punished for those crimes, since they didn't commit them).

[bostonbabs]

27. I'm with you

...I'd believe it of Rove and co. I would not put it past them.

[applegrove]

32. Just simply that they don't see war and the ensuing destabilization

or civilain casualties as anything more than an option. Bill Clinton.. would have been so all over Lebanon with its freedom. And so all over the pull-out of aid to Hamas. He would have been micro managing to ensure nothing else broke out. And micro-managing when Hamas started using the tactics of al Qaeda.

Where was the pre-emptive peace? All there is is Laissez Faire "well boys will be boys.. won't they just".

[Marie26]

43. I seriously doubt that.

This isn't a Rovian creation, it's a real division among liberals. We're just seeing more of it now because of the current crisis, & cause it's no longer banned to the I/P forum.

[applegrove]

52. Fundamentalism wasn't a Rovian creation. But he uses it to score

percentage points in elections. Israel/Palestine is also not his creation. Neither is it the neocons. Their creation was the slow war in Iraq. With no easy solution. Slow and long and painfull. In terms of hawks.. the wheat separated from the chaff (more like chaff separated from the wheat).

Are you saying Joe Lieberman is not a wedge? Cause really..Rove has a long standing pattern of targeting certain Dem leaders (of a certain narrow group..ie Texas)for flipping..and a few Dems will follow. That is his pattern. Are you saying he stopped using that pattern? Even Bill Clinton says that these issues, which Joe Lieberman cannot help but vote his soul on in a hawkish way,.. are not issues that he started or has had control over...just issues he is left to deal with.


In Assassin's Gate..the author goes into the neocon plan for remaking the middle east. Something about starting one war that leads to many other small ones.. where the radical islam lines up on one side and democracies on the other. Turning the ME black or white.

People can only handle so much. So push them all to the hilt and the group breaks apart. And Rove can pick up the pieces.

Why else would Melmann say "Today,We are all Israelis". Is that an appropriate statement? Was Israel attacked today? NOPE! When people use that statment is it not to express solidarity with a nation shocked by attack or trauma suddenly? Yes. So why three weeks in? Why now..Friday are we all Israelis? Statements like that are meant to divide. They are wedges in and of themselves.

All fun times for mystics and their patsies. While the victims on the ground cry every day, weep the loss of a loved one, suffer more and more psychological damage, and have their lives diminished one more time.

But if it makes for more power for the ones who want more power in the USA... for their narrow elite base.. it is fine and dandy and should be continually acted upon with relish and joy. Afterall - it is just another day - another war... a few more % points of the Democratic vote. What fun. They love the smell of napalm in the morning.

[Orangeone]

53. Why do we have to love Israel?

Why do people care if someone hates the country of Israel?

[cali]

56. I don't think you do have

to love Israel, though I think some of the hate Israel- as in it's the most evil country ever on the face of the planet, has been over the top, but the stuff that's really disturbing is the out and out bigotry. There's a thread now about U.S. soldiers in Iraq having been given orders to kill young men of
military age, and two posters are insisting that this is something that the U.S. learned from Israel. Then there's the stuff about how Israel should be dismantled and all the citizens should have to leave. Ethnic cleansing, anyone. Not to mention some of the remarks like referring to Bush as the "Jew President", Bob Dylan as a "heeb", Joe Lieberman as "jew boy", and sadly many more comments in this vain.

[dionysus]

59. whoa

I'm against the overwhelming response of Israel in all of this, but where have the words "heeb" and "jew boy" been thrown around? That's way over the top, do you have a link?

[mitchtv]

61. Ethnic cleansing, anyone.

Surely you are talking about S Lebanon

[rman]

67. "hate the country" - that's just silly

It's more about thinking the current military actions of the Israeli government are atrocious.