"We are raping women children in Iraq"

[Stinky The Clown]

I'd like to see an intellectually **honest** discussion of that statement. It appeared in another thread - one that was neither mine nor one in which I participated. But there it was. "We are raping women and children in Iraq"

To steal part of the punch line from a bad old joke: What's this 'we' shit?

Yes, there is very strong evidence - and charges have been filed to that effect - that several of our soildiers in Iraq not only raped a young girl, but killed - slaughtered, actually - her family.

But to say that 'we' are raping women and children in Iraq is not helpful, is not honest, and does nothing but allow the person making such a statement to appear ignorant.

Does anyone here think there are standing orders to rape women and children?

Does anyone here think that the raping of women and children is formal military or government policy?

There can be little doubt that the situation in Iraq has created an environment where such heinous actions can happen. There can be little doubt that hopelessness among our troops contributes to the mindset that would allow an otherwise reasonable young man to do such things. There can be little doubt that the grind of endless and pointless combat, under the guise of 'bringing freedom', can create hopelessness and dehumanization of young people.

But to say that 'we' are raping women and children in Iraq is just plain wrong.

I am a US citizen. That makes me one of the 'we' in that statement. It makes *you* one of the 'we', too.

Please think before you post such absolutely stupid, overly broad, factually incorrect statements. It makes you look ignorant and makes many of us angry.

I do NOT support any minute part of this war. I never have and I never will. But neither do I support presumably intended to be supportive stupidity.

(edit to fix spelling and grammer, not to change substance)

[Monkeyman]

1. HooYa Brother

I been saying same thing. Not all of did or ever would Rape only a coward does that

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. I'm having trouble believing our military would defend these actions

because it so undermines our efforts. Any officer who thinks that raping women and children will make the populace submissive, needs to be court martialed. Especially when the commander in chief is touring the world telling other world leaders about the wonderful democracy we're establishing in the country. We would have one stupid, stupid military that doesn't understand that cellphone cameras can reach international journalists.

[Stinky The Clown]

3. Where did our military 'defend' these actions?

I must have missed that.

There was some evidence that there may have been an attepmt at cover-up - there often is in such cases, whether military or civillian, war zone or not.

But where did the military attempt to 'defend' rape?

You statement is as wrong as the statement that is the focus of the OP.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. Easy there, I'm agreeing with your point and replying in the same

manner. Read it again.

[Stinky The Clown]

8. I just did ... and ......

.... mea culpa! :)

I guess I'm just kinda pissed from having read the statement cited in the OP.

[The Backlash Cometh]

9. I share your sentiments.

[EFerrari]

4. Iraqis? What about female enlisted?

Am I the only person who remembers that unit where the female members were doing without water and becoming ill from dehydration because their water source was dangerous after dark, said danger being from males who were raping thirsty women?

I'm sorry but, if you allow or downplay these actions "fraternally", what can you expect against "the enemy"?

[Stinky The Clown]

6. I am not 'allowing' or 'downplaying' anything.

What I *am* doing is challenging are statements that paint an erroneous picture.

If we're both being honest, we would both agree that there is simply **no** policy that would condone, encourage, or allow for the coverup of actions such as you cite. And yes, I do recall the charges you cite.

[EFerrari]

10. I didn't mean you, H2S, at all.

But, I have no way to verify whether this is official "policy" or not.

They told us Abu Graib was a prank. We now know, it's policy.

There were women and children at Abu Graib.

Math isn't my strong suit. But, when I think about it, this is what comes to mind: This behavior is silently enabled during training or at the very least, it's minimized. And, Iraqis are vocally dehumanized thereafter.

How big a leap is it? How would this be shocking or even, surprising considering everything we know about the Cabal?

And *this* leadership is where our young people are going. Into *these* hands.

[Stinky The Clown]

11. I'm sorry ... as I said above in another mea culpa ......

.... I was a bit blinded to what you're saying by my own anger over the statement. That's my fault, not yours and so .... sorry. I misunderstood your intent. I no longer do.

Abu Gharaib (sp?), as far as I can tell from what's been put out so far (and it may well be pretty damned incomplete), was an odd duck kind of case.

First off, there were two different organizations involved: the military and the black ops guys (and their 'contractors'). I'd bet nearly anything that the military, in and of itself, did not condone, or even encourage, what happened. I am almost as sure that the black ops guys were operating pretty freelance and took advantage of the low level military people (Lyndi England or her idiot boyfriend, Sgt. Stupid, never struck me as even close to rocket scientist status) with their eagerness to please and 'get 'er done' attitude that the black ops guys played upon. In short, the military people were manipulated by freelance agents of a civillian agency.

Now, that's all pure speculation, but that's how I see it. There was no military policy to do what got done, but that what got done, got done because a few out of control operatives were going as far as they dared. If it ever seriously got investigated, then this might have been condoned all the way to Rumsfeld, but even at that, I would classify him as an out of control operative - not a maker of official policy.

As bad as things are today, I still think the military is pretty straight and narrow. not that they're without some very bad guys, but they're the exception and are certainly not operating under any official authority.

[EFerrari]

12. I think we're on the same page and I apologize for being

too casual about such a serious matter.

It is my feeling and not my knowledge that our military personnel are being exploited to the max by this cabal. Remember, they cut VA benefits on the day of the invasion of Iraq. And that is their pattern.

And, it has been shown that the abusive treatment at Abu Graib has also been documented in Afghanistan. And there are reports of kidnappings and (my brain won't give me the word) flights to secret torture prisons.

I have nothing but respect for the personnel that seek to professionalize our armed forces. But, I can't help but know who their bosses are. Who holds their careers and paychecks, even their families, in their power.

I didn't read the threads you may be thinking about. But, you know, when behavior is minimized among equals, it just seems like common sense that it will appear as a weapon against an enemy.

I just want them home now. My grandfather was a lifelong military man. He came from nothing and did something quite remarkable with his life *because* the military gave him the opportunity to prove his mettle, which turned out to be considerable. :)

May our kids have the same chance.

[Catch22Dem]

5. As a vet, I certainly don't believe it's a standing order or policy

But I long ago gave up trying to convince some of my fellow DUers of this type of thing. Look man, with numbers as large as this (number of duers) there's gonna be some assholes in the bunch. I mean it's just simple statistics. I have no idea who, what, where, or why this conversation got started, and I don't care. Just know that I agree with you, and I hope that helps.

[valerief]

13. I guess people should stop saying we voted for Bush and this

whore Congress, too.

[Stinky The Clown]

14. No ... and your comment is intellectually dishonest

To speak about voting, we're speaking about a binary internal issue. 'We' could be those who voted for him or those who did not.

When speaking of actions in Iraq, 'we' would be the entirety of the American people. I dare say there is but a minusculey small group who favor the rapes of women and children.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. Is the idle bystander wholly innocent?

... particularly the idle bystander who in theory is supposed to exercise some oversight?

[Stinky The Clown]

17. For the 'particular' in your comment:

no

[valerief]

18. It's not binary any more. There are people who vote for candidate A,

people who vote for candidate B, and people who vote for candidate A but get their vote counted for candidate B or not counted at all.

We, America, did not vote for Bush or the current whore Congress. Diebold etal did.

[Stinky The Clown]

25. I think you're in the worng thread.

[lumberjack_jeff]

15. Did the Hutus murder the Tutsis...

...or did "some" Hutus murder the Tutsis? Many Hutus stood by, content with the idea that the rogue militiamen weren't coming for them.

I know this may not be popular, but personally, I think we americans share some of the collective shame for the actions of soldiers in our name.

Our leaders went to war with Iraq under false pretenses. Had we citizens been adequately informed and participative, it might not have happened.
Our leaders explicitly rejected the Geneva convention protections. Had we not been so supportive of the idea of "good old fashioned punishment" and "getting tough on terr" - it might not have resulted in systematic torture.
Our leaders (although ignorant on the topic) tried to avoid "the errors of Vietnam". As a result, the military has carte blanche to use the tactics they deem fit, including the atrocities (such as chemical weapons) committed in Falluja. Had we insisted on holding our government accountable and transparent, perhaps this wouldn't have happened.

So now we know that our leaders have invaded and occupied a country, tortured the inhabitants and committed heinous atrocities. What have we (collectively) done? Torches and pitchforks? War crimes tribunal? Recall? Impeachment?

Or did we just kind of cluck disapprovingly at the bad apples and change the channel?

I am ashamed at the conduct of my military. Frankly, I think the best hope of reforming our conduct lies in perhaps a little more widespread sense of collective responsibility. Lyndie England didn't do her thing in a vacuum - she had a few million accomplices.

[Stinky The Clown]

19. That reasoning means you're a war criminal?

If I follow your logic, that's the proper conclusion, no?

Have you booked your flight to Den Haag yet?

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. War criminal? Maybe. Accomplice? Definitely.

So long as I consciously tolerate crimes committed on my behalf.

The next logical question is how much dissent and disobedience provides adequate moral absolution. I don't know the answer to that one. I suspect pushing a button on a touch screen that I know will provide an "result" which endorses the powers that be is insufficient. It's window dressing.

[Sam Odom]

20. think there are standing orders to rape women and children?

Ridiculous

[Monkeyman]

22. Sir with all due respect hell no Sir

If there was any order like that thats my reply

[lumberjack_jeff]

23. No, but until recently there were standing orders...

...that the geneva convention did not apply to Iraqis.

This allowed battlefield commanders to order the killing of all military-aged men in a given locale.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0721IraqSoldiersCharged21-ON.html

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. No, but in the Tokyo War Crimes Trials, commanding officers were held

responsible for the actions of their subordinates.

The opinion of the judges was that commanding officers should have known that their subordinates were committing atrocities, brought them under control, and punished the wrongdoers.

(It was even worse in the case of the Japanese military, which told its rank and file that it "didn't matter" what they did with prisoners and civilians.)

[Monkeyman]

26. Your right chain of command is the right way to look