John Kerry: "We have to destroy Hezbollah"

[ruggerson]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060723/UPDATE/607230360

Sunday,July 23, 2006

<snip>
Hezbollah guerillas should have been targeted with other terrorist organizations, such as al-Qaida and the Taliban, which operate in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Kerry said. However, Bush, has focused military strength on Iraq.

"This is about American security and Bush has failed. He has made it so much worse because of his lack of reality in going into Iraq.…We have to destroy Hezbollah," he said.
<snip>

[katinmn]

1. Huh? Bush failed but we should follow him in crushing Hezbollah?

How about the "d" word from someone, anyone: DIPLOMACY.

Along with a cease-fire. Start talking instead of bombing, eh?

[blm]

6. You're assuming wrong based on the way the article is written.

And further, anyone who knows Kerry's military philosophy knows he doesn't believe in carpet-bombing and airwars where the civilians have a greater chance of becoming casualties.

[cali]

10. Kerry- like every other Senator

endorsed the one sided Senate resolution, which continues the blank check policy toward Israel

[Tom Joad]

13. That's right. A tragic day for the U.S. Senate.

[blm]

14. Not the point - if terrorism, including Hezbollah, was dealt with Kerry's

way, they would be crushed.

He was always for dealing with terrorism by attacking its ROOT CAUSES, starangling the FINANCIAL network, and any of the organization that remained violent would be dealt with by surgical strikes against them.

You want to line up against that - go ahead. Too bad none of you listened to Kerry when he was first telling this country about growing terror networks and their financing during IranContra, BCCI, CIA drugrunning - there would be no Bush presidency and no 9-11 would have occurred.

Too many DON'T LISTEN, and DON'T put anything said today in CONTEXT of his entire work against terrorism, and certainly not in the context of his military philosophy that you choose to ignore outright.

[Tom Joad]

Hezbollah's root cause was Israel's invasion of Lebanon in the 80's

and its continual disregard for the rights of the people of Lebanon. Even after israel partially withdrew from south Lebanon it continues to control some land. Rather than addressing real concerns of the people Lebanon, and insisting on adherance to international law, you say Kerry supports only withholding funds. Kerry is working double-time to serve Israeli interests, and not to be fair to all. This is tragic.

No, i have not read Kerry's book. But unlike Kerry, I have been in the West Bank and saw for myself what the Israeli military occupation meant for millions of people, and not on some guided tour provided by some p.r. firms for Israel's interests.

[blm]

25. And YOU never met with Assad in Syria. Kerry did. Why the EFF do you think

he met with Assad? To ENGAGE HIM - not threaten him. ENGAGE him.

You want to set yourself against that approach? Or against bringing in all the world's religious leaders to discuss ways to avoid violent confrontation in their name?

You want to line up against Kerry's approach to deal with root causes of terrorism? Run for office with your better plan.

[Tom Joad]

71. Meeting only with elites is not the answer. He only seeks to

pacify the situation, not address the legitimate grievances of the people of Lebanon (or Palestine). Because in his eyes, the only interests is to make sure Arab leaders tow the line and not challenge US and Israeli dominance in the region, despite the fact that comes at a shocking price to the people.

He has never, ever, once said that Israel had done something that is not in the interests of peace. We can see the extreme this has taken now, when even this bloodbath is acceptable to bush/kerry/cheney and the entire Senate, because it is what Israeli leaders have decided to do.

It is not even rational. It is damn suicidal. Not only will this crisis bring the death and carnage to the people of Arab nations, but it will inevitably result in the US and Israel paying a high-price for their arrogance. Kerry not only works against the peace movements in the US, but is not even working with the people of Israel who demand better of their government.

[karynnj]

91. Bush/Kerry/Cheney ????? HTF!!!

Kerry is a Senator in the minority - he says in the article that he disagrees with the Bush lack of diplomacy. He said this would not have happened if he were President. Doesn't that imply that he would have done things differently.

There is nothing in this article to support your incredibly biased ludicrous comments.

[blm]

119. Assad is NOT just a figurehead, TJ. And further, it is Kerry's withdrawal

plan for Iraq that calls for meetings WITH the leaders of the various insurgencies.

Why do so many of you CHOOSE to put a whole other face on his work and pretend as if none of it even connects? Fock - you can't FIND anyone who puts as much continual effort to find doable solutions in so many areas, especially for that region.

You act as if you never read one thing about his efforts that span over 20 yrs dealing with that region. You all act as if this stuff just came up.

None of you even read The New War, none of you were part of his effort to expose terrorism and BushInc since the mid80s, and none of you keep his efforts in context today.

[wordpix2]

128. apparently, a number of Arab states agree with Israel on stopping

Hezbollah. Unfortunately, Hezbollah hides its weapons among the Lebanese population and they are paying the price for being Hezbollah's human shields.

Imagine you and your next door neighbor are having some neighborly arguments, and this goes on year after year but you have an uneasy peace. Then you see your neighbor arming himself against you with watchtowers, machine guns, missiles and launchers aimed straight at you, and this arms buildup continues to occur over 10 years. The neighbor constantly threatens to annihilate you and teaches his children to wipe you off the map. The neighbor then crosses into your yard, kidnaps your kids and shoots some missiles at you. What would you do?

[wordpix2]

127. did you see for yourself what the suicide bomb attacks "meant for

millions" of Israelis? I ask since you seem to have sympathy only for the Arabs.

Believe me, if all the Arab states were against Israel's attacks against Hezbollah, those states would be stopping Israel in its tracks. Note that they're not.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

65. exactly blm... you tell um! n/t

[ShortnFiery]

20. That's really sad to hear from usually an honorable man ...

I am deeply disappointed. :(

[karynnj]

90. It was a voice vote - that does not mean all the Senators endorsed it

It means no one called for the vote to be on the record.

[katinmn]

32. Then he should loudly denounce the bombing of Lebanese civilians

Yesterday three were killed while trying to escape in a mini-van. A bomb from the air killed them.

More than 300 have been killed - one-third of them children. Where is the outrage?

[MH1]

68. HOW ABOUT READING THE ARTICLE???

"The president has been so absent on diplomacy when it comes to issues affecting the Middle East," Kerry said.

Nah, I guess that would be asking too much, huh? :eyes:

[rodeodance]

83. Kerry knocks Bush on handling of Mideast conflict (headline)

Sunday, July 23, 2006


Kerry knocks Bush on handling of Mideast conflict

Valerie Olander / The Detroit News

[IndyOp]

2. Yeah. We just need to kill all the bad guys and there won't be any left

to take their place.

:sarcasm:

[leesa]

49. No kidding. This is just such silly, childish thinking. Is he just tired

the name 'Hezbollah' and wants a new group with a different name? Because that's all that would happen. God, any idiot should know this, why don't our 'leaders'????

[karynnj]

92. and what is your solution?

[TomClash]

3. This is daft

On the one hand, he says the Lebanese conflict would never have happened if he wre President. Then he says Hezbollah must be destroyed, which is what the Israelis are trying to do. So which is it?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[karynnj]

46. This is abusive

There is nothing in any Kerry statement to suggest this. He was against TERRORISTS not Lebanese. His comment was no more militant than Clark's or Feingold's.

[kenny blankenship]

58. You're seriously objecting to criticism of Kerry because it didn't include

equal condemnation of the craven panderings of others? Well, ok...

I thought the ethnic cleansing of southern Lebanon and deliberate destruction of the fledgling Lebanese democracy was abusive, but apparently not handling John Kerry with kid gloves is an even worse offense. I stand corrected.

[MH1]

69. No - repetition of republican talking points. nt

[karynnj]

94. You misread my comment

1) Kerry is not in any way backing ethnic cleansing, in fact this doesn't even back the bombing.
It says that he as President would have used diplomacy - so this wouldn't happen. (Maybe a President of the US pushing diplomatic solutions and not giving Israel a green light is part of his meaning.) It seems to me he went out of his way to avoid either saying the bombimbing was necessary or that it was wrong.

2) I realize that others having the same opinion doesn't matter.

Do you though consider Israel's predicament? Were you at all affected by Sept 11? They deal with random terror attacks all the time.

[Tom Joad]

72. He supports the terror tactics of Israel bombs. 'nuff said.

[karynnj]

95. Where did he say that ?- he seems to say he IF HE HAD POWER

would have made diplomacy work instead.

[MH1]

102. Bullshit. Read the whole statement. The OP is out-of-context flamebait. nt

[karynnj]

44. There are other ways to destroy a terrorist group

Bush's actions which have intentionally destabalized the middle east have helped these terrorist groups to grow. I assume that what Kerry meant was that he would have used an area wide summit in Iraq immediately and would have transitioned out of Iraq, for the most part by now. He would have been engaged in diplomacy on the middle east - diplomacy has been his passion since he was a young kid.

Bush pushed the election in Palestine over Abbas's and Israel's desires to postpone it. Hamas should have had to reject its terrorist goals before being allowed to run. (my comments). Kerry after the election said that Hamas can't be allowed to be both a terrorist group and a government. That Israel can't meet at the table to work out issues with people who are still trying to blow up buses.

From what Kerry said in 2004, I assume that he would have worked to strengthen the Lebanese government and have worked to isolate Hezbollah by making cutting off its funding. An effort could have been made by the Lebanese government to pull as many people from Hezbollah into mainstream efforts to build Lebanon and help its people. The part of Hezbollah that would opt to remain committed to being a terrorist group has to be treated as terrorists. (Consider the IRA in the last quarter of the last century - they were killed or arrested as they engaged in terrorism. The same with the Basque seperatists.)

This was not a prepared statement or (I think) even part of a speech) - just responses to reporters questions.

[blm]

4. Big surprise, he's been for destroying ALL terrorism and its root causes

for decades.

Did no one read his book The New War that he wrote after tracking all that funding of global terrorism going through BCCI?

Big difference in how Kerry would have worked yto do that compared to Bush's approach. Kerry actually WENT to Syria to engage Assad - Kerry planned a world summit of religious leaders to discuss ways to end violence being done out of a warped use of their bylaws.

Big difference.

[AtomicKitten]

5. it's unfortunate that killing innocent people in that quest

-- collateral damage -- is taken in stride by too many of our politicians.

There has to be another way.

[blm]

9. Kerry is AGAINST BOMBING AND AIRWARS and always has been - he doesn't

believe in them BECAUSE of civilian death tolls.

Kerry has LONG BELIEVED that terrorism needs to be crushed and its ROOT CAUSES dealt with - he wrote about it in 96 in his book The New War.

Do people here really want to claim that terrorism SHOULDN'T be dealt with at the root causes and the violent aspects of the organizations SHOULDN'T be crushed?

[Tom Joad]

12. Kerry voted to support Israel's actions. He is on the record.

Please, it is unfair to distort John Kerry's record.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,204276,00.html
Fox News applauds Kerry's approach. So does Israel's Prime Minister Olmert.


The children of Lebanon may have different views, but they do not vote or have any influence in US politics.

[blm]

18. At this "too far" point. You want to claim Kerry's OWN PLANS and

his efforts done HIS way, would have been the same? You do not KNOW because I doubt you have read The New War - it's all about dealing with terrorism at its ROOT causes, strangling the financial networks, and striking the remaining violent groups with law enforcement measures backed with special forces trained for that specific arena.

I don't distort Kerry's entire record - you do - because you never bothered to KNOW it in the first place. What the Fock do you all think BCCI was about?

Why do you think Kerry WENT to meet with Assad in Jan 2005? He would seek to ENGAGE while Bush would not. Distort that.

And if you are not even aware of Kerry's personal military philosophy about airwars and the use of carpet-bombing (he's set against it), then YOU are the one who will end up distorting it to fit into your own storyline.

[karynnj]

52. Your link does not mention Kerry

This was a voice vote for a resolution that has no impact. Do you even know if he or any Democrat was there? Your comment is inflamatory - that resolution is not Kerry's - the Democrats do not control congress.

[blue collar welder]

59. I have'nt read The New War

so can you please tell me what he thinks is the ROOT CAUSES and just how he would crush terrorism? Because when I hear some one say that they want to CRUSH some thing I think of bombs and guns. And I by no means like the use of violance to reach a means.

[MH1]

103. I've only started reading it, but shutting down the financing seems to be

a big focus.

That was why Kerry went after BCCI (successfully, you may recall). The BCCI bunch was financing terrorism and organized crime. Unfortunately, even though BCCI was shut down, there were many other recommendations of Kerry's committee, to further dismantle terrorist networks, that were never followed up on by Congress and the President (Clinton, iirc).

I will have to go to the book and be sure I am reporting accurately before I can fully answer your question, according to the book anyway.

I would note that one of the topics I jumped ahead to in The New War, while not directly relevant here, does suggest a little bit about his thinking. On the drug war, while he is for enforcement against gangs and big dealers, he made a strong argument agains the kind of punitive drug laws we currently have for small users. I was pretty impressed with his position on that, because I'd always heard that he was a drug war "hawk". I was pleased to see that he fully understands that we shouldn't be throwing anyone in jail for 5 years for a nickel bag.

I believe that Kerry does fully understand that violence begets more violence and that the root cause of terrorism is a combination of feelings of disenfranchisement with the clever manipulation of people by cynical operators like bin Laden, and yes, certain "fundamentalists" in our own country (even though the major ones haven't resorted to the level of terrorism that bin Laden and ilk have). Although I can't recall if I got that from The New War, or all the other reading I've done over the years.

So, anyway, how does one "destroy" Hezbollah? What is meant by "destroy"? Although I probably would prefer Kerry using a different word, I think he probably means in the way he "destroyed" BCCI and many of their networks. I understood his language to mean "destroy" in the sense of eliminating their support, which can be done in many ways. As most of us know, wholesale violence is not an effective means of achieving that. I believe that Kerry also knows that, which is why, if you read his WHOLE statement (which the op cleverly did not include - wonder why? :eyes:), you will see he is bashing Bush for letting it come to this in the first place - by failing at DIPLOMACY.

[Tom Joad]

11. Unfortunately Kitten, I doubt if any major US politician would question

Israel's actions, no matter how destructive they are. Including Gore.
What an inconvenient truth.

[AtomicKitten]

15. although he hasn't made a statement to that effect

I do believe you are correct in that Gore would probably support Israel no matter what, and it is that "no matter what" that is very troubling to me.

When did concern for innocent life become an unpopular sentiment? It seems there is NO ONE in leadership who will step away from the pack consensus and call for a ceasefire.

It is nothing short of heartbreaking.

[Tom Joad]

26. Dennis Kucinich and a handful of others.

See http://www.kucinich.us/

Kucinich Introduces Middle East Cease‑Fire Resolution

Calls on Bush to immediately send US diplomats to facilitate negotiations

Updated July 21, 2006

Congressman Kucinich introduced H. Con. Res. 450 on Wednesday, calling upon the President "to appeal to all sides in the current crisis in the Middle East for an immediate cessation of violence and to commit United States diplomats to multi-party negotiations with no preconditions."

The concurrent resolution also asks the President to send a "high-level diplomatic mission to the region to facilitate such multi-party negotiations."

Finally, the Kucinich resolution "urges such multi-party negotiations to begin as soon as possible, including delegations from the governments of Israel, the Palestinian Authority, Lebanon, Iran, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt; and supports an international peacekeeping mission to southern Lebanon to prevent cross-border skirmishes during such multi-party negotiations." more.....

______________________________

I am proud to say my congresperson, Barbara Lee, is supporting this sensible resolution. Kerry will oppose it for all its worth, no doubt. Barbara Lee is being attacked by pro-Israel policy supporters, but she will do well, because so many here in the Bay Area support this common sense approach.

[AtomicKitten]

31. they are the peacemakers

that have my undying admiration

[karynnj]

53. Kerry will oppose a House resolution

Since when did MA give him a house seat along with his Senate seat.

[Tom Joad]

60. What i meant was is that if this were brought to the Senate,

he would oppose it there, since he has already stated that he opposes any constraints on Israeli terror.
I wish to god the people of Mass. would take this warmonger out of the Senate.

[karynnj]

96. Where did he say he opposes any constraints?

So, you are blaming him for opposing a non-existant bill because you KNOW what he would do if it exited?

As one of the people who heard him speak on April 22, 2006 in Boston, Kerry is not a war monger. He, incidentally was very very warmly received by those there - if he opts to stay a Senator, he very likely will have no difficulty keeping his seat.

How many other Senators do you think are war mongers?

[katinmn]

35. Except Dennis Kucinich, he did it very diplomatically.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[karynnj]

50. yeah Kerry knows there's another way - that's why he said it wouldn't

have happened if he was President. Kerry is saying that diplomacy could have avoided this - nowhere is he saying that he is 100% behind the way Israel reacted. (Nor is he condemming it.) There is a strong implication that a Kerry Presidency would have either not let this situation happen or he would have worked to resolve the problem without war.

Although Gore has said nothing, I assume he do would say that with a strong diplomatic effort in the area, rather than a laissez faire spread democracy effort, this could have been avoided.

A terrorist group heading the country next to you and with members in the government of another neighbor is a consequence of Bush's misadventures since 2004. He also is possibly responsible for the election of the nut in Iran because he publicly called for people to avoid the election as they were unfair. The previous President was from the pro-democracy party. The president is not an important position in Iran but Bush is now using the fact that he is there. I seriously doubt Kerry (or Gore) would have done this.

[AtomicKitten]

66. I absolutely agree

our world would look much different under a President Gore or President Kerry.

[Tom Joad]

7. Translation: Kerry supports Israel's destruction of Lebanon.

Despite the fact that over one-half million men, women and children have been uprooted from their homes. Kerry supports the continual bombing of the cities of Lebanon. Kerry opposes an immediate cease-fire and gives unconditional support for Israel's actions.

Kerry does not speak for millions of Democrats or others who want peace and an end of this nightmare. He does not support negotiation over military force. This is tragic.

[karynnj]

55. Where do you find this in Kerry's comments

You are reading in what you want to. I would be equally wrong if I said that because he does not say that he explicitly supports everything Israel did, it means he disagrees with them.

What Kerry did say here was:
-Under a Kerry Presidency, it wouldn't happen. He spoke of diplomacy - this would mean either the events precipitating it wouldn't happen or Kerry would have signaled NOT to go to war, where Bush gave Israel a green light.

Where do you find:

"Despite the fact that over one-half million men, women and children have been uprooted from their homes. Kerry supports the continual bombing of the cities of Lebanon. Kerry opposes an immediate cease-fire and gives unconditional support for Israel's actions. "

I seriously doubt Kerry, Feingold or any American including Bush gives Israel unconditional support.

[MH1]

70. Did you even read the entire statement?

He is blaming Bush for a failure of DIPLOMACY.

Sheesh.

[daydreamer]

87. I agree. This is disgusting. So is Hillary.

[karynnj]

97. You too suffer from reading comprehension defficiencies

Kerry is clearly preferring diplomacy here - and nowhere is he commenting on the bombing of Lebanon - other than saying it would have been avoided.

[daydreamer]

107. Did he call for immediate cease-fire from day one?

[KKKarl is an idiot]

16. News from April '08

John Kerry today condemned the war in Lebanon in his bid to become to president after the US lost their 2000th troop in the war. His has retracted his original stance saying that we were given misinformation on the details of why we had to go to war with Hezbollah. John Kerry voted for war with Hezbollah in the September '06 decision to go to war. It is a replay of the '04 presidential elections when John Kerry then condemned the War in Iraq after voting in favor of it originally.

[karynnj]

56. Very funny - and certainly not justified

[Larkspur]

17. A fool's dream

Hezbollah is a political movement as well as a militaristic group that uses terror tactics.

And the more Israel pounds them and innocents in Lebanon, the more future terrorists we will have to deal with. We and Israel might defang Hezbollah, but another group will sprout up later and take up where Hezbollah left off.

Gary Hart said it best -- going into Iraq was smashing a hornets nest.

The hornets are furious and are attacking those close enough to them, whether they smashed the nest or not. Bush and Israel's new leadership are still smashing the hornets nest and keeping the hornets angry. Attacking Hezbollah this way is a sign that Israeli leadership was weak and weak governments make bad decisions. Israel overreacted to the seizure or kidnapping of their soldiers who may have been in Lebanon. They were close to the border.

Also the big elephant in the Middle East is the Israeli/Palestinian problem. The rightwingers ruling Israel right now do not want peace with the Palestinians. They want the Palestinians out of their lands so that Israel can have all of Biblical Israel back. But the more Israel keeps oppressing the Palestinians the more they will keep up attacking Israel.

[AtomicKitten]

19. I heard Hart interviewed on Air America late last night .

He's pretty hawkish. He also is going to campaign for Lieberman.

Surprising information to me.

[Larkspur]

23. Haven't heard that Hart is going to stump for Lieberman

I thought Hart opposed the Iraq invasion. He certainly has opposed the way Bush & Co. have handled Iraq and the current crisis in the Middle East. Lieberman still thinks things are going well in Iraq. Lieberman is delusional.

[blm]

24. The HartRudman Report on Global Terror would have prevenetd 9-11 if it

had been handed to President Gore on Jan 30, 2001.

Hart studied global terror indepth for 2 1/2 years. Yes, Hezbollah should be taken out of existence, along with every other terror organizations. But men like Hart, Kerry, Clark, Gore and others would have done it diplomatically as part of an overall plan to reduce it to a law enforcement issue, deal with its root causes, and use military force for only the mosty extreme needs.


I don't understand why more DUers are still unaware of the context of these men's ENTIRE scope of thinking on the terror issue?

[AtomicKitten]

28. I have no doubt

that all this would never have occurred under a President Gore or President Kerry.

Terrorism has been cultivated under this administration. It has taken off like a brush fire on a windy day. We would not feel the need to root it out had we not incited/encouraged it and allowed it to flourish to begin with. An after the fact notion to be sure, but truthful nonetheless.

Feeling grief at the plight of innocent civilians caught in the crossfire does not mean people are overlooking politicians' entire records; it just means that that emotion supersedes the need to defend them. We have no one else to look to to stop this insanity.

[blm]

37. I put their words in context of their efforts in this area and their

longheld beliefs - my point is that not everything said is in the context of "warmonger" and distorting their position to make it sound as if it is a black and white situation is not exactly helpful or productive. All it does is distort.

Kerry has been saying since the mid90s that Hezbollah and every other terror organization needed to be crushed out of existence and the best way to do it is to engage the leaders diplomatically, deal with the root causes of their claims used to justify the terror,cut off their money sources, and where pockets of violent terrorists remain, strike at them forcefully.

What would YOU expect a leader to do?

[AtomicKitten]

39. I have not used that word.

"warmonger"

Nor is it helpful for you to distort other's opinions/words and lump them together as one, although I realize they are more conveniently summarily dismissed that way.

A politician's political wellbeing is less important to me than the loss of innocent civilian life. Defending a politician no matter what is as egregious to me as defending Israel no matter what. The "no matter what" part matters.

I want to hear the word "ceasefire." The killing has to stop. Period.

[blm]

41. I didn't say you did. I'm speaking generally to the thrust of the thread

and engaging your post as part of it.

It's not a matter of defending a politician no matter what - it's a matter of KNOWING what they mean when they say something, and knowing enough about their record to acknowledge that their way of handling the situation is the correct one.

If you have a better plan than what Kerry, Hart, Clark or other Dems would do to deal with Hezbollah, then share it.

[AtomicKitten]

61. please understand

I have no interest in condemning anyone in particular concerning this issue, although I realize many people use this kind of stuff to launch their negative tirades singling out politicians.

I know you aren't happy with people launching anti-Kerry rhetoric here, just as Wes Clark's supporters did in a thread I posted concerning his comments yesterday. I expect to feel a twinge of the same when Al Gore's comments surface.

I just want to point out to you in particular that I have not said anything disparaging about any politician over this, I have only called for a ceasefire.

Peace.

[blm]

98. I would like to say that is the only answer, but the Hezbollah issue makes

it extremely difficult, considering they have long been a terrorist organization. And many of those who truly have been involved for years in getting the terror issue exposed and dealt with, are going to treat them as such in this case.

[AtomicKitten]

105. and it's getting worse and more complicated

I posted down-thread a link to an article about Iraqi Shi'ite militia getting ready to go into Lebanon to fight. I'm afraid the window for a ceasefire is closing, no doubt just as BushCo planned.

God help us all.

[blm]

118. Trust me, AK, I do NOT personally disagree with your sentiments.

My overall point is really maintaining context and knowing for damn certain that it would not be coming down in this way with a Democrat in office. We needed that Dem in office before 9-11.

[Tom Joad]

21. Hornets? I thought they were people.

[Larkspur]

34. Gary Hart used hornet's nest as an allegory to describe the

repercussions of what we did by invading Iraq.

[Donna Zen]

63. In 2002

General Clark called it a Pandora's Box that we might never be able to close.

[ShortnFiery]

22. We seemingly have and entire Congress, save for a few very

notable exceptions, filled with warmongering dumb asses. I for one will work tirelessly to rid our congress (through the primaries) of all the racist horse patooties. :puke: :grr:

[blm]

29. Some of these men you accuse have studied terrorism for decades and

just because they want Hezbollah's violent faction crushed just like they wany Al Qaeda crushed out of existence, you all want to claim they are on the same page with the neo-cons and imperialists who are only into the profiteering and the imperialism.

Context. What would THEY have done to prevent the situation from even getting to this point based on what you KNOW about their past efforts, and what would YOU have done differently?

[Totally Committed]

27. C E A S E F I R E ! ! !

C E A S E F I R E ! ! !

C E A S E F I R E ! ! !

C E A S E F I R E ! ! !

C E A S E F I R E ! ! !

Where are the Democrats calling for a ceasefire???????

The death and destruction has got to stop! These are real civilian people who are in the middle of "getting rid of Hezbollah", fercripessake!

TC

[AtomicKitten]

30. sing it, sister.

You have it exactly right. That's all I want to hear from them.

[katinmn]

36. Kucinich's cease-fire resoultion, signed by 20 as of last week

http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/justforeignpolicy.org/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=4697

[LWolf]

93. That's right.

Of course, there are many Democrats who won't recognize anything that comes from that direction.

[gulfcoastliberal]

33. K&R - Hope DU recognizes that no matter who runs in '08, they will support

Israel.

This is based in reality, where we prefer to dwell. Israel is our ally, get over it.

Perhaps drafting an anti-semite for '08 would suit many here better.

[AtomicKitten]

38. So ...

A politician's political wellbeing is more important than the lives of innocent civilians?

No thanks.

[Totally Committed]

40. Just as if a friend were about to drive drunk, I would relieve him

of his keys, becayse friends don't let friends drive drunk. Allies shouldn't let allies do this either... not if they are GOOD allies:

To Flee or to Stay? Family Chooses Too Late and Pays Dearly
By HASSAN M. FATTAH
Published: July 24, 2006



SIDIQEEN, Lebanon, July 23 — Muntaha Shaito’s eyes rolled back as the paramedics screamed at her to stay awake and implored her son Ali to keep her engaged, as she teetered near death from shrapnel wounds inflicted by an Israeli rocket.

“Pray to God!,” one paramedic shouted at her as she writhed in Ali’s arms.

“Don’t go to sleep Mama, look at me!,” Ali shouted, tears streaking his bloodied face. “Don’t die, please don’t die!”

It was the scene that members of the extended Shaito family said they had feared most, the real reason they had held out for days in their village of Tireh in southern Lebanon, terrified of the Israeli bombardment, but more terrified of what might happen if they risked leaving. On Sunday they gave up their stand, and all 18 members crammed into the family’s white Mazda minivan. They planned to head north toward the relative safety of Beirut....

***

An Israeli rocket, which Lebanese officials said was likely fired from a helicopter, slammed into the center of the Shaitos’ van as it sped round a bend a few miles west of their village, and the van crashed into a hillside. Three occupants were killed: an uncle, Mohammad; the grandmother, Nazira; and a Syrian man who had guarded their home. The missile also critically wounded Mrs. Shaito and her sister. Eleven others suffered less severe wounds....

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/24/world/middleeast/24tyre.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

TC

[Totally Committed]

42. And, while I'm at it...

since when is expressing a desire for a ceasefire an indication of Anti-Israeli sentiment? I have many friends in Israel. Please don't assume that I am anti-Israeli just because I am pro-Peace.

And... all peoples in that region are "semitic" peoples, not just the Israelis. Being "Anti-Semitic" means being "Anti-Arab" as well as "Anti-Israeli". Just so you know.

TC

[unkachuck]

126. love our ally....right or wrong....n/t

[ShortnFiery]

43. Please call in your support for Resolution # 450 sponsored by D. Kucinich

Kucinich Introduces Middle East Cease‑Fire Resolution
Calls on Bush to immediately send US diplomats to facilitate negotiations
Updated July 21, 2006

http://www.kucinich.us/

Congressman Kucinich introduced H. Con. Res. 450 on Wednesday, calling upon the President "to appeal to all sides in the current crisis in the Middle East for an immediate cessation of violence and to commit United States diplomats to multi-party negotiations with no preconditions."

ON EDIT:Oh thanks Katinmn! Above Post # 36

Here's the link for your support:

http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizationsORG/justforeignpolicy.org/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=4697

[Totally Committed]

47. Already done...

but thanks. Maybe others will support Dennis's resolution as well.

TC

[katinmn]

54. Thanks!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

67. thanks for the link shortnfiery. done n/t

[AtomicKitten]

76. done, done, and done

n/t

[Historic NY]

45. Sounds like a lot of wind blowing..........

When will the politician realize that Hezbollah is much more than just a terrorist group in the eyes of the Middle East. It has won the support and affection of the people through its deeds. How does one set about changing peoples minds about Hezbollah when they give them sustenance, housing and support that the government does not.

The time was 25 yrs ago or more when it should have been done, before they became so entrenched.

[leftofthedial]

48. I'm sorry Sen. Kerry

but you are not only a loser and a quitter. You are an idiot.

[mtnsnake]

51. ...

:popcorn:

[AtomicKitten]

62. no, he's not

Damn, is there no middle ground for people?

[Tom Joad]

73. Atomic, Kerry has not taken the "middle of road" when he supported

unconditionally Israel's tactics.

[AtomicKitten]

75. I just really hate scorched earth rhetoric.

My wrath is reserved for the collective body of politicians who aren't screaming from the rooftops that this violence must stop. It reminds me of the frustration I felt watching Katrina victims die day after day waiting for help.

BushCo is wholly responsible for this mess, but I was looking to the grown-ups, the Democrats, to demand a stop the violence with an immediate ceasefire. I view that nonresponse collectively I guess.

[leftofthedial]

110. the middle ground?

I criticize someone for an extremist, one-sided position and *I'm* the one who can't find the middle ground.

Wise up.

[karynnj]

111. Kerry's position is not extremeist

If you look over all Americans, I assure you yours is by far further from the center.

[leftofthedial]

114. there are two sides

he is taking one side's position

both sides are clearly in the wrong

he's an idiot

remove Hezbollah and another group, more pissed off, more extreme will rise

Hezbollah is a response to extreme injustice (I do not support them, but I understand their genesis).

Removing them and leaving the injustice is a recipe for perpetual conflict

[AtomicKitten]

117. there's the rub

It's not me that needs to wise up, it's you that might want to consider toning down the rhetoric a tad.

Rather than making a substantive point, that kind of verbiage is so inflammatory that your point is lost in the drama altogether.

That's free advice that's worth every penny you paid for it. :)

[leftofthedial]

120. yeah, I'm a flaming rhetorician.

His statement that "Hezbollah must go" is stupid and short-sighted.

Thanks for the advice.

[AtomicKitten]

121. We are in agreement on your analysis of that particular statement.

See, you were specific without being too inflammatory.

Good job. :)

[leftofthedial]

123. hey! ain't I supposed to get a sugar cube too?

gyp.

:-)

[AtomicKitten]

125. how 'bout these?

[brentspeak]

112. Uh, yeah. Well argued, well established, excellent supporting statements

not.

[leftofthedial]

130. as is yours. Hezbollah does not exist in a vacuum

Kerry's call for getting Hezbollah out of southern Lebanon is short-sighted and stupid. Hezbollah exists because a population feels they have been treated unjustly. Remove them (by destroying most of Lebanon and killing Lebanese civilians) will not solve the problems in the region. Here are two of the many reasons why:

1. Another, probably more extreme movement will take its place. The last week has created a new generation of "terrorists" in the region. Their hatred of Israel will not go away just because Israel bombs Hezbollah into oblivion (and most of Lebanon with it).

2. Israel will have learned that no "response" to terrorism will be too extreme for Murkan politicians to condemn. They'll keep upping the ante.

Kerry's transparent appeal to Israel's popularity offered an ignorant, ill-considered course of action that will just ensure continued violence in the region indefinitely into the future.

[AtomicKitten]

131. Grasshopper.

The student has become the teacher.

Well done.

[alvarezadams]

57. /&%"($%(" DLC

[Jeffersons Ghost]

64. K&R here's a 5th vote!

[ProudDad]

74. What a fucking idiot

What a cowardly thing to say.

Hezbollah was; just as al-Qaida was; CREATED and is being sustained by a premeditated application of a political "policy" and U.S. Taxpayer Dollars.

In the case of al-Qaida -- It was money to support the mujahadeen against the "Russians", in the case of Hezbollah it was money to support the Israeli government against the entire Arab and Persian world.

Same-o, same-o...

[karynnj]

100. This is not true

Hezbollah was not created by the US, nor supported by it...ever. Hezbollah developed in Lebanon during their civil war - complicated by both the Palestinian refugees and the Israel invading. This was in the early 80s. Reagan had marines there until many were killed when Hezzbollah blew up one of the barracks.

How would giving money to Hezbollah support the Israeli government.

You seriously need to read a history book.

[bemildred]

77. What is this "we" shit? nt

[Hippo_Tron]

78. I agree with Senator Kerry, but...

It's easier said than done. Hezbollah might be gone for a few months or a few years after Israel blows the shit out of Lebanon but they will be back.

[TayTay]

122. Nothing will change until the parties actually negotiate

That is not going to happen at the end of a gun. The problems will get worse, the situation with Hizbolluh will probably get worse and they will re-arm. Israel is not treating her neighbors fairly and they are not interested in negotiating with her either.

I think Kerry tried some diplomacy last year when he went to Syria, Lebanon and so forth. But Bush is not interested in hearing any of that diplomatic talk. He wants to blow the shit out of people. That's what he calls diplomacy. Sigh!

There was a report on ABC News tonight that showed a little girl around 8 years old or so. She was in Lebanon and her family was forced to live off of the generosity of Hizbolluh until they are able to return home. I can't see how this can possibly make her or any of the other displaced people more amenable to dealing with Israel.

[lojasmo]

79. Is ANYBODY surprised that Kerry and Clark are parroting Bush?

[emulatorloo]

81. reread it -- hardly parroting Bush.

and besides, I would seriously question the sanity of any Democratic politician who was a Hezbollah supporter.

[Tom Rinaldo]

85. I'm not surprised to hear YOU claim that if that's what you mean n/t

[karynnj]

101. Is it any surprise that lojasmo is making things up?

The title of the article is that Kerry is CRITISIZING Bush on the middle east. He is saying there was a lack of diplomacy and that "this" would not be happening if he was President.

Where is he parroting Bush. It sounds to me like he is parroting Kerry (2004) - who did say the world would have to counter terrorism.

[lojasmo]

104. Sorry.....Kerry is running to the RIGHT of bush. Not merely parroting.

Thanks for picking that up.

[karynnj]

106. You have direction problems as well as

reading problems. How sad!

[Donna Zen]

115. Wrong:

From yesterday:

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Phone calls aren't enough and in fact, the United States did not have a strong position in the region because basically we were working only to ensure Israel had freedom to maneuver. That's not enough. We have to get the Lebanese government to support and have confidence in itself and we should be helping the Lebanese government recover from the impact of these Israeli air strikes and give them the confidence to turn against Hezbollah.

Sean Hannity: General, look, I don't want to get into political discussions with you. I know you think everything George Bush basically does on these issues is wrong. I…put your military hat on for a minute.

True General Clark has said that Israel is attacked then they have a right to defend themselves. Every nation on earth has a right to defend themselves. If you think that Israel has gone too far, then I'm with you. But Hannity is correct. General Clark has told him earlier in the week, that this entire mess is a meltdown of the bush foreign policy.

The only parrots around here, are the one's saying the same thing over and over again. Repetition doesn't make things true.

[AtomicKitten]

80. all this discussion may be moot

Because it appears to be TOO LATE for a ceasefire.

According to Raw Story http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Iraqi_Shiite_militia_ready_to_join_0724.html Iraqi Shi'ite are preparing to go to Lebanon to fight.

Aaaarrrggggghhhh!!!!

[emulatorloo]

82. I would question the SANITY of a Dem Politician who supported Hezbollah

And Kerry is right about Bush.

[rodeodance]

84. this is not a well written article-meant to inflame-and some caught the

bait.


.......Hezbollah guerillas should have been targeted with other terrorist organizations, such as al-Qaida and the Taliban, which operate in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Kerry said. However, Bush, has focused military strength on Iraq.

"This is about American security and Bush has failed. He has made it so much worse because of his lack of reality in going into Iraq.…We have to destroy Hezbollah," he said.

[daydreamer]

86. Sesame Strett and Barney

are the most effective tools of fighting terrorism. America is a shining example of how people of different races can live peacefully together.

[Karenina]

89. Stuff a sock in it JK.

You, B&H, the LieMann and all your minions have completely lost me. It's enough now.

[Throd]

99. Speak for yourself n/t

[ecstatic]

113. his comments show that he doesn't truly understand 'terrorism'

and it's roots. You cannot crush an 'idea.'

[Douglas Carpenter]

116. but it is not going to happen

I have no sympathies for Hezbollah and I certainly will not write an apologies for them. But Hezbollah cannot be destroyed. It is a major and interwoven part of Lebanon. The destruction of Hezollah is not going to happen. And the simple political reality is that many -- if not most of our Shiite "allies" in Iraq and elsewhere feel at least some affinity toward Hezbollah. The idea that Sen. Kerry is suggesting is just plain downright dangerous and could like create a major crisis. At the very least it would likely plunge Lebanon and Iraq into even greater chaos.

To quote Uri Avnery of the Israeli organization Gush Shalom - link: http://www.nimn.org/articles/whats_new/000539.php

"in 1982, when the Shiites in the south of Lebanon, until then as docile as a doormat, stood up against the Israeli occupiers and created the Hizbullah, which has become the strongest force in the country."

More than 17,000 Lebanese civilians died during the 1982 Israeli invasion and occupation of Lebanon. Again to quote Mr Avnery, "ON THE eve of the 1982 invasion, Secretary of State Alexander Haig told Ariel Sharon that, before starting it, it was necessary to have a "clear provocation", which would be accepted by the world.

The provocation indeed took place—exactly at the appropriate time—when Abu-Nidal's terror gang tried to assassinate the Israeli ambassador in London. This had no connection with Lebanon, and even less with the PLO (the enemy of Abu-Nidal), but it served its purpose"

The Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon was a period of incredible brutality and cruelty - That is the reason why there is a Hezbollah and why it has power -- link:

http://www.hri.ca/fortherecord1998/vol3/lebanonchr.htm

[Gloria]

124. How about destroying Bushco?

[unkachuck]

129. you're a real disappointment....

>>>>We have to destroy Hezbollah<<<<

....how many innocent old men, women and children will die in this process?

....and by the way Mr. Kerry, what was the original 'sin' that warrants the death of these Lebanese old men, women and childern?....they couldn't control Hezbollah?

....these dying old men, women and childern can't control Hezbollah anymore than we can control bushco, or you, for that matter....

[TankLV]

132. Good. Some SANITY from a respected person.

I whole heartedly agree with Kerry on this one.

[DoYouEverWonder]

133. Anyone who makes such a blanket statement

such as "We have to destroy Hezbollah" is either pandering or a fool.

You can't destroy an entire group of people, because you will only increase their numbers.

It's like saying we have to destroy all the mosquitoes or all of the cockroaches. You might even managed to kill all the mosquitoes in one particular pond but as soon as you walk away they start to return.

For Kerry to make such a stupid statement just gives me one more reason to never support him again.

[Mass]

134. Kerry knocks Bush on handling of Mideast conflict - This was the title of

the article and you should read it, rather than extracting pieces and changing the title,

This said, this is exactly what all other dems, including Feingold, have said. I dont like these words, but I like even less the singling out of Kerry here.

[GeorgeGist]

135. It's always about US isn't it...

"This is about American security and Bush has failed. He has made it so much worse because of his lack of reality in going into Iraq.…We have to destroy Hezbollah"