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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:08 PM
Original message
Kerry: Hezbollah guerillas should have been targeted with other terrorist
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 06:10 PM by ProSense
Hezbollah guerillas and Labanon are not one in the same!

A young Shiite scholar named Amal Saad-Ghorayeb has advanced what in Lebanon is a controversial argument: that Hezbollah is not merely anti-Israel but deeply, theologically anti-Jewish. Her new book, "Hezbollah: Politics & Religion," dissects the anti-Jewish roots of Hezbollah ideology. Hezbollah, she argues, believes that Jews, by the nature of Judaism, possess fatal character flaws.

I met Saad-Ghorayeb one afternoon in a café near the Lebanese American University, where she is an assistant professor. She was wearing an orange spaghetti-strap tank top, a knee-length skirt, and silver hoop earrings. She is thirty years old and married, and has a four-year-old daughter. Her father, Abdo Saad, is a prominent Shiite pollster; her mother is Christian.

Saad-Ghorayeb calls Israel "an aberration, a colonialist state that embraces its victimhood in order to displace another people." Yet her opposition to anti-Semitism seemed sincere, as when she described the anti-Jewish feeling that underlies Hezbollah's ideology. "There is a real antipathy to Jews as Jews," she said. "It is exacerbated by Zionism, but it existed before Zionism." She observed that Hezbollah, like many other Arab groups, is in the thrall of a belief system that she called "moral utilitarianism." Hezbollah, in other words, will find the religious justification for an act as long as the act is useful. "For the Arabs, the end often justifies the means, even if the means are dubious," she said. "If it works, it's moral."

In her book, she argues that Hezbollah's Koranic reading of Jewish history has led its leaders to believe that Jewish theology is evil. She criticizes the scholar Bernard Lewis for downplaying the depth of traditional Islamic antiJudaism, especially when compared with Christian anti-Semitism. "Lewis commits the . . . grave error of depicting traditional Islam as more tolerant of Jews . . . thereby implying that Zionism was the cause of Arab-Islamic anti-Semitism," she writes.

Saad-Ghorayeb is hesitant to label Hezbollah's outlook anti-Semitism, however. She prefers the term "antiJudaism," since in her terms anti-Semitism is a race-based hatred, while anti-Judaism is religion-based. Hezbollah, she says, tries to mask its antiJudaism for "public-relations reasons," but she argues that a study of its language, spoken and written, reveals an underlying truth. She quoted from a speech delivered by Hassan Nasrallah, in which he said, "If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice, I do not say the Israeli." To Saad-Ghorayeb, this statement "provides moral justification and ideological justification for dehumanizing the Jews." In this view, she went on, "the Israeli Jew becomes a legitimate target for extermination. And it also legitimatizes attacks on non-Israeli Jews."

Larry Johnson, a former counterterrorism official in the Clinton State Department, once told me, "There's a fundamental view here of the Jew as subhuman. Hezbollah is the direct ideological heir of the Nazis." Saad-Ghorayeb disagrees. Nasrallah may skirt the line between racialist anti-Semitism and theological anti-Judaism, she said, but she argued that mainstream Hezbollah ideology provides the Jews with an obvious way to repair themselves in God's eyes: by converting to Islam.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?021014fa_fact4



We should not confuse Hezbollah with Al Qaeda. Unlike Al Qaeda, Hezbollah has a real and substantial international network. Unlike Al Qaeda, Hezbollah has a real and substantial international political and financial network. They have personnel and supporters scattered in countries around the world who have the training and resources to mount attacks. Hezbollah has no qualms about using terrorist attacks as part of a broader strategy to achieve its objectives. The last major Hezbollah attack against the United States was the June 1996 attack on the U.S. military apartment complex in Dharan, Saudi Arabia. Hezbollah also organized the attacks on the Israeli Embassy in Argentina in 1992 and Jewish Community Center in Buenos Aires in 1994. But they also have exercised restraint when they felt they could achieve their objectives through political means. The ten year hiatus in major mass casualty attacks could come to a shattering end in the coming months, and American citizens are likely to pay some of that price with their own blood.

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/the_rut_becomes.html



Help me understand who is Imad Mughniyah?

Imad Mughniyah, Hezbollah security chief, planned and directed some of the most astonishing terrorist operations until bin Laden came along. The bombing of the U.S. embassy in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1983, the bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks , which until yesterday had caused the largest loss of life in any single terrorist attack against the United States, the hijacking of TWA 847, and the murder of U.S. Navy diver Robert Stethem, the kidnapping of several Americans that were held hostage in Lebanon for a while, such as Terry Anderson.

So this is an individual who continues to operate in the Bekaa Valley of Lebanon, continues with ties to Hezbollah, continues to be supported and protected by the Iranian intelligence organization. And here he is meeting with bin Laden. And, according to the source, ... the basis of the plea bargain is that everything he's saying in this is true, that bin Laden modeled himself after Mughniyah. ...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/binladen/interviews/newjohnson.html



When I asked Kerry what it would take for Americans to feel safe again, he displayed a much less apocalyptic worldview. "We have to get back to the place we were, where terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they're a nuisance," Kerry said. "As a former law-enforcement person, I know we're never going to end prostitution. We're never going to end illegal gambling. But we're going to reduce it, organized crime, to a level where it isn't on the rise. It isn't threatening people's lives every day, and fundamentally, it's something that you continue to fight, but it's not threatening the fabric of your life."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/10/magazine/10KERRY.html?ei=5090&en=8dcbffeaca117a9a&ex=1255147200&partner=rssuserland&pagewanted=print&position=



John Kerry: "We have to destroy Hezbollah"

Senator Kerry is right, and knows a lot more about this than most people!

America cannot ignore Hezbollah or wait for them to send flowers!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Kerry is wrong, and he doesn't know "more than most people"!
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 06:29 PM by IndianaGreen
I suggest Kerry forgets about the campaign money he gets from the Israel Lobby and fly to Beirut and sit down and have a long chat with Robert Fisk, The Independent's Beirut correspondent. Fisk has lived in Beirut for many years, and he can enlighten Kerry about a country and a region where there are no white hats and black hats, but everyone wears hats of different shades of gray.

Kerry made a statement about Venezuela in 2004 that like this one about Lebanon, was asinine and ignorant
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You are wrong because the statement doesn't mention Lebanon! Fisk:
ROBERT FISK: I think it's probably a little bit less than 900,000, but it's probably moving towards half a million. I mean, the people from the southern suburbs, where, of course, the Hezbollah did have their headquarters -- “did” being the optimum word now -- there are about half a million of them scattered across Beirut in schools, public parks. They’re living out in the open in parks, where it's warm, but what a filthy place to live, under trees on dried grass. I mean, this is a mass punishment of a whole people for the actions of a very ruthless, powerful guerilla army, Hezbollah, which does not represent the Lebanese people.

Anyway, it is important to remember that the Hezbollah crossed that border against all international law. No one gave them a referendum or a vote to cross the border and kill Israelis and capture two Israelis and start off this war. But, you see, they relied upon -- they totally relied upon the cruelty of Israel's response. And Israel, as usual, obliged them. So no one will now criticize the Hezbollah in Lebanon.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/19/1345257



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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Here is something else Fisk said about Lebanon
Published on Saturday, July 15, 2006 by the Independent / UK

From My Home, I Saw What the "War on Terror" Meant

by Robert Fisk


All night I heard the jets, whispering high above the Mediterranean. It lasted for hours, little fireflies that were watching Beirut, waiting for dawn perhaps, because it was then that they descended.

They came first to the little village of Dweir near Nabatiya in southern Lebanon where an Israeli plane dropped a bomb onto the home of a Shia Muslim cleric. He was killed. So was his wife. So were eight of his children. One was decapitated. All they could find of a baby was its head and torso which a young villager brandished in fury in front of the cameras. Then the planes visited another home in Dweir and disposed of a family of seven.

It was a brisk start to Day Two of Israel's latest "war on terror," a conflict that uses some of the same language - and a few of the same lies - as George Bush's larger "war on terror." For just as we "degraded" Iraq - in 1991 as well as 2003 - so yesterday it was Lebanon's turn to be "degraded."

That means not only physical death but economic death and it arrived at Beirut's gleaming new £300m international airport just before 6am as passengers prepared to board flights to London and Paris.

From my home, I heard the F-16 which suddenly appeared over the newest runway and fired a spread of rockets into it, ripping up 20 metres of tarmac and blasting tons of concrete into the air in a massive explosion before a Hetz-class Israeli gunboat fired on to the other runways.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0715-26.htm
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. What does that have to do with Hezbollah? n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Israel is not going after Hezbollah anymore than she is trying to free
the IDF captives. Israel is after the Litani River basin, and she is trying to demolish Lebanon because the only time Israel feels secure is when her neighbors are reduced to rubble or are in disarray.

After all, Hezbollah is as much Israel's creation as Hamas!

July 21, 2006

A perilous excursion into the distant past, starting seven whole weeks ago

Hezbollah, Hamas and Israel: Everything You Need To Know

By ALEXANDER COCKBURN

You can say that Israel brought Hezbollah into the world. You can prove it too, though this too involves another frightening excursion into history.

This time we have to go far, almost unimaginably far, back into history. Back to 1982, before the dinosaurs, before CNN, before Fox TV, before O’Reilly and Limbaugh. But not before the neo-cons who at that time had already crawled from the primal slime and were doing exactly what they are doing now: advising an American president to give Israel the green light to “solve its security problems” by destroying Lebanon.

In 1982 Israel had a problem. Yasir Arafat, headquartered in Beirut, was making ready to announce that the PLO was prepared to sit down with Israel and embark on peaceful, good faith negotiations towards a two-state solution.

Israel didn’t want a two-state solution, which meant -- if UN resolutions were to be taken seriously -- a Palestinian state right next door, with water, and contiguous territory. So Israel decided chase the PLO right out of Lebanon. It announced that the Palestinian fighters had broken the year-long cease-fire by lobbing some shells into northern Israel.

Palestinians had done nothing of the sort. I remember this very well, because Brian Urquhart, at that time assistant secretary general of the United Nations, in charge of UN observers on Israel’s northern border, invited me to his office on the 38th floor of the UN hq in mid-Manhattan and showed me all the current reports from the zone. For over a year there’d been no shelling from north of the border. Israel was lying.

http://www.counterpunch.org/Cockburn07212006.html
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. This is not about Israel, it's about Hebollah being a terrorist group. n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. What Israel is doing to Lebanon is also terrorism!
We can go back to the days of Esau and Jacob to affix blame, but not even ancient myths can rationalize the bombing of Beirut!
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Would they be doing it if Hezbollah weren't there?
If, as Kerry said Bush should have done, diplomacy and other means had been used to root out Hezbollah, what would be Israel's cover for invading Lebanon?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. If Sharon had not invaded Lebanon, there wouldn't be an Hezbollah
The coalescing of this alliance of Shi’ite clerics and their private militias was the direct result of a confluence of events: Israel’s invasion of Lebanon, America’s systematic alienation of Lebanese Shi’ites, and a campaign by Iran and Syria to provoke a conflict between the U.S. and Lebanon’s Muslims. Today, Lebanon is being sucked into that same geopolitical wormhole.

The irony is that then – like now – there was an alternative. The U.S. intervened in Lebanon following Israel’s invasion of Lebanon to provide a buffer between Israeli troops and the besieged population of Beirut. Israel had invaded to once-and-for all rid itself of the threat from Yassir Arafat’s PLO, then occupying south Lebanon and Beirut.

If the Reagan administration had not – unnecessarily – taken sides with Lebanon’s Christians against its Muslim majority, who initially saw the Marines as saviors from the Israeli guns, it is likely the majority of Shia would never have been radicalized. And if Israel had reached out to the Shi’ites of south Lebanon – who hated the PLO almost as much as the Israelis did and largely welcomed the invasion to “cleanse” the region of Palestinians – it might have created a buffer far more effective than any military shield.

But neither of those things happened. Instead, what the Israelis call “Hezbollahstan” took the place of Arafat’s “Fatahland” in south Lebanon and the suicide bomb was invented in Beirut. Two decades later, Lebanese are once more dying under Israeli bombs and an American administration is once more seeing black and white.

Published on Sunday, July 23, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
Lebanon: Black & White and Dead All Over
by Lawrence Pintak

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0723-21.htm
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Bush's invasion of Iraq will have the same effect, doesn't mean
I have to sympathize with terrorist groups. War mongering leaders shouldn't cause people to lose sight of the dangers of terrorism.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. There would be much less terrorism without the warmongering
What other weapon do militarily weak people have?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. By that logic
the insurgents in Iraq are terrorist. There is a difference between terrorism and fighting for one's country.
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semillama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
71. Yes, the difference is that one is a technique
the other is a form of resistance, if I read your intent right. One could plausibly "fight for one's country" using the technique of "terrorism".

Now you have to define what constitutes the technique of terrorism.

Myself, I like the definition "deliberately targeting civilians with violence to achieve a political goal". This definition thus covers everybody from Hezbollah to the IDF to the homegrown types that snipe abortion providers.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. I used to think that.
I'm not so sure any more. In fact, I've rather come to doubt that Israel's occupation was truly needed for Hezbollah's existence. For it's heightened prestige, yes, but not for its existence.

Iran wanted to export its revolution. It couldn't do it well in Iraq, because Saddam had an effective method of preventing it. It couldn't do it well in Sa'udi Arabia, for the same reason.

Lebanon provided a Shi'ite population with the freedom granted by instability, and the kind of disadvantaged population that easily falls prey to populist and supremacist arguments. It might have had a harder time finding justification that would serve for a western audience, but Syria provided that nicely enough; no justification was really needed for the Shi'ite audience.
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Counterpuke and Cockburn?
not anyone I would turn to for anything resembling truth.

Just sayin'.

Considering they were out to DEFEAT KERRY in 2004, I am not sure why they aren't on the "do not link" list at a site that supposedly supports the Democratic Party. :shrug:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. Perhaps I should have used The Jerusalem Post
whose editor is an American neocon, or maybe you prefer I had used The Washington Times, or how about TruthOut, I hear they are still waiting for Rove's secret indictment to be revealed?
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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Jerusalem Post and Washington Times would be poor picks
and I wouldn't give credence to anything from Jason Leopold, either.

Perhaps you should find a credible source to make your point. If it's a credible point, then there is a credible source that you can reference to back it up.

As for Truthout, being wrong on one article is NOTHING compared to the mountain of lies told by the writers at Counterpuke. And at least Truthout is on our side (or the side of liberalism, anyway).
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. here is an interesting theory by Uri Avnery of Gush Shalom
The Israeli peace oganization. I cannot say whether or not Mr. Avnery is correct. But its something to consider.

link:

http://www.nimn.org/articles/whats_new/000539.php

"The Real Aim by Uri Avnery

THE REAL aim is to change the regime in Lebanon and to install a puppet government.

That was the aim of Ariel Sharon's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. It failed. But Sharon and his pupils in the military and political leadership have never really given up on it.

As in 1982, the present operation, too, was planned and is being carried out in full coordination with the US.

snip:"

ON THE eve of the 1982 invasion, Secretary of State Alexander Haig told Ariel Sharon that, before starting it, it was necessary to have a "clear provocation", which would be accepted by the world.

The provocation indeed took place—exactly at the appropriate time—when Abu-Nidal's terror gang tried to assassinate the Israeli ambassador in London. This had no connection with Lebanon, and even less with the PLO (the enemy of Abu-Nidal), but it served its purpose.

This time, the necessary provocation has been provided by the capture of the two Israeli soldiers by Hizbullah. Everyone knows that they cannot be freed except through an exchange of prisoners. But the huge military campaign that has been ready to go for months was sold to the Israeli and international public as a rescue operation.

(Strangely enough, the very same thing happened two weeks earlier in the Gaza Strip. Hamas and its partners captured a soldier, which provided the excuse for a massive operation that had been prepared for a long time and whose aim is to destroy the Palestinian government.) "

snip:"That resembles the 1982 "Operation Peace for Gallilee". Then, the public and the Knesset were told that the aim of the war was to "push the Katyushas 40 km away from the border".

That was a deliberate lie. For 11 months before the war, not a single Katyusha rocket (nor a single shot) had been fired over the border. From the beginning, the aim of the operation was to reach Beirut and install a Quisling dictator. As I have recounted more than once, Sharon himself told me so nine months before the war, and I duly published it at the time, with his consent (but unattributed).

Of course, the present operation also has several secondary aims, which do not include the freeing of the prisoners. Everybody understands that that cannot be achieved by military means. But it is probably possible to destroy some of the thousands of missiles that Hizbullah has accumulated over the years. For this end, the army chiefs are ready to endanger the inhabitants of the Israeli towns that are exposed to the rockets. They believe that that is worthwhile, like an exchange of chess figures. "

read full article:

http://www.nimn.org/articles/whats_new/000539.php
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niallmac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #7
25. Damn! I want to read the rest of that article. Link not working.n/t
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Kerry does know more than most people
that isn't even a high threshhold. I assume that he has spoken to many people in Lebanon as part of his job on the SFRC.

Kerry has NOT taken PAC money in any of his Senate campaigns - and is one of the few 4 term Senators to do so. People have posted the top AIPAC recipients (career and last election) - Kerry is NOT on the list.

I also assume Kerry would need state department approval to fly to Beruit now. I assume that he does get information from various sources and he clearly does not equate all Arabs with terrorist.

As to Venezuela, I credit him with knowing more than other American leaders about the narcoterroism in Latin America because he spent over a decade investigating it. Some here have made a saint of Chavez - which is wrong. It was also wrong of Bush to have probably backed the coup against him. Here's a paragraph of a statement on Latin America.

"The fact is that far too often, we have sent mixed messages when it comes to supporting democracy in Latin America. This Administration sat by and watched as mob violence drove presidents from office in Bolivia and in Argentina. They even encouraged a president to flee in Haiti, and immediately recognized a government named by a military junta in Venezuela. There is no question that Hugo Chavez has undermined the democratic process in his country, supported narco-terrorists in Colombia, and provided massive assistance to Castro’s repressive regime in Cuba. But when we countenance mob rule or military force to oust an elected president -- even objectionable leaders like Chávez -- we lose the credibility necessary to become a true force for democracy. In fact, our policies have been so unpopular that opposition to the United States has become a rallying point for some of the very politicians we would most like to see defeated. "

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MH1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. Exactly - Kerry called Bush on Bush's support of the coup.
Kerry has some disagreements with Chavez, but acknowledges him as a democratically elected leader, and has made clear that we have to work with him as such.

I don't see what is the big problem with that.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. He sat down and met with Assad in Jan 2005. He has always worked towards
engaging Syria and the rest of the regional leaders.

Put all his words in context and add all his work to expose the terror networks since the mid80s, and especially in his book The New War that was written in 96 and published in 97 - LONG before 9-11.

Try coming up with a better idea than his of dealing with terrorism at its root causes, convening the religious leaders from all over the world to develop a strategy against the misuse of their religions for violence, strangling the terrorists' financial networks, shrinking it to a law enforcement issue, and in extreme cases using special forces trained specifically for those targeted strikes.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. but its not going to happen
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 08:09 PM by Douglas Carpenter
I have no sympathies for Hezbollah and I certainly will not write an apologies for them. But Hezbollah cannot be destroyed. It is a major and interwoven part of Lebanon. The destruction of Hezollah is not going to happen. And the simple political reality is that many -- if not most of our Shiite "allies" in Iraq and elsewhere feel at least some affinity toward Hezbollah. The idea that Sen. Kerry is suggesting is just plain downright dangerous and could likely create a major crisis. At the very least it would likely plunge Lebanon and Iraq into even greater chaos.

To quote Uri Avnery of the Israeli peace organization Gush Shalom link: http://www.nimn.org/articles/whats_new/000539.php

"in 1982, when the Shiites in the south of Lebanon, until then as docile as a doormat, stood up against the Israeli occupiers and created the Hizbullah, which has become the strongest force in the country."

More than 17,000 Lebanese civilians died during the 1982 Israeli invasion and occupation of Lebanon. Again to quote Mr Avnery, "ON THE eve of the 1982 invasion, Secretary of State Alexander Haig told Ariel Sharon that, before starting it, it was necessary to have a "clear provocation", which would be accepted by the world.

The provocation indeed took place—exactly at the appropriate time—when Abu-Nidal's terror gang tried to assassinate the Israeli ambassador in London. This had no connection with Lebanon, and even less with the PLO (the enemy of Abu-Nidal), but it served its purpose"

The Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon was a period of incredible brutality and cruelty - That is the reason why there is a Hezbollah and why it has power -- link:

http://www.hri.ca/fortherecord1998/vol3/lebanonchr.htm
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
10. This was not the important part of his statement. The important part is
that, if Bush had kept discussions opened with the other countries and worked for peace during the last 6 years, this would not have happened.

Of course, Hezbollah is a problem, but there are many ways to destroy it and one is to make it irrelevant. Insisting on this sentence is distorting what Kerry has said for months and years, that you disarm these movements by getting rid of the causes that push people to them. Show me ONE statement where Kerry says we have to go after them with overwhelming force?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Agree! That was the point
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 08:37 PM by ProSense
of including the NYT comment.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. And that is an excellent point that Kerry made
Had Gore or Kerry been in the White House, we wouldn't be here today fighting with one another about Israel and the bombing of Lebanon.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. These discussions on DU are based on sound-bytes
That is never going to get anyone anywhere. Someone, like Kerry, comes out with a sentence and everyone thinks that's his whole thinking on the subject. It's not true for him or for a lot of other Democrats. The Middle East is not a sound-byte friendly subject, it's a complex area and dealing with it relies on a lot of 'well, if this happens, then we do this' and 'if that happens, then we double-back and do that.' It is complex and does not fit into a ten second sound byte on the news.

Kerry, and numerous other Dems, do not believe in democracy at the end of a gun or with solving all our problems with force and missiles. I don't think they want Israel to do that either, that's part of the nutty Neocon agenda, both here and abroad. But we can't have a serious discussion on the Middle East because everyone is reacting to pieces of a conversation. Maybe it's endemic to American culture, we can only respond to instant phrases that don't a few dozen words. That's too bad. It's a complex issue and doesn't fall into a yes or no answer.

I do know that Kerry said this last fall about the Middle East from the bird's eye view:

For all their rhetoric about democracy, human rights, the hateful ideology of our adversaries, and international coalitions against terrorism, the president and his advisers have shown time and again that they really do conceive the war on terror as almost exclusively as a military operation. That’s why they’ve been so willing to bend every relationship and international institution, and bend, in fact, our own values and respect for norms of behavior that America has long championed.

Make no mistake, we are united in our commitment to track down and kill the evil men who would harm us. But that alone will not win the real war on terror. The real war on terror is an even bigger challenge. It is a war that has drawn us smack into the middle of an internal struggle in the Islamic world. It is fundamentally a war within Islam for the heart and soul of Islam, stretching from Morocco east to Indonesia. It leads, ultimately, to a struggle for the transformation of the Greater Middle East into a region that is no longer isolated from the global economy, no longer dependent on despotism for stability, no longer fearful of freedom, and no longer content to feed restive and rising populations, alarming rising rate of populations among young people, to feed them a diet of illusions, excuses, and dead-end government jobs.

As the 2004 Arab Human Development Report tells us, “By 21st century standards, Arab countries have not met the Arab people’s aspirations for development, security and liberation. Indeed, there is a near-complete consensus that there is a serious failing in the Arab world, located specifically in the political sphere.” Dec. 8th, 2006 John Kery at the Council on Foreign Relations

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9390/real_security_in_a_post911_world.html


For my money, that makes sense. There is a lot more, as there should be. It's not a sound-byte soluable problem. It's not something that can be explained in a sound-byte either. Kerry, and there are a lot of other Dems on this wave length as well, treat the subject with some respect as to the origins of the conflicts and how they ultimately have to be resolved. It's not going to happen with missiles.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You make excellent points, TayTay
We can blame our media for feeding us the information they want to feed us, and we oblige them by reacting to what we are being fed.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #17
28. Absolutely right
Snippets and sound bytes are the enemy of critical thinking, the friend of knee-jerk reacting. I despair some days for DU.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
23. Kerry: "If I was president, this wouldn't have happened"
Diplomacy would have helped. Strengthening the Lebanese goverment would have helped. Keeping communication channels open with Syria would have helped.


Bush didn't help!
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
26. One could make the argument that Hezbollah was a more legitimate target
for the U.S. than Iraq. After all, Hezbollah did kill a couple hundred U.S. Marines on Reagan's watch.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. But our USA killing machine has murdered more innocents than
Edited on Tue Jul-25-06 01:44 PM by ShortnFiery
BOTH Hezbollah (Shiite) and Hamas (Sunni) COMBINED.

How does it feel to live within the #1 Terrorist Nation in the world?
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Nonsequitor: I was comparing Hezbollah and Iraq. It is in Iraq that the
majority of the innocents have been killed by the U.S. So my statement still stands. Hezbollah was a more legitimate target than Iraq.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #30
36. Nonsequitor - but factual
What? You going to attack ALL the countries that harbor Hezbollah? We'll also have to bomb ourselves if you use THAT logic.

Yes, that's the problem, you don't defeat terrorism with military solutions.

Attacking terrorism is an honest to goodness POLICE ACTION ... well, that is IF you wish to be the least bit effective.
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Never said that. I really don't know what your beef is with what I said.
And I don't think you do either. I made a simple statement of my opinion. I wasn't even suggesting that Hezbollah should be attacked. I simply said that a better case could be made for attacking Hezbollah than Iraq. Since I don't believe there was any good cause to attack Iraq, that is not saying a heck of a lot, is it? You are reading way more into what I said than is justified.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. Kerry is NOT for attacking all the countries that harbor terrorists
That was Bush's policy. Kerry thought working with other nations to isolate active terrorists was smarter.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. And cutting off their funds
something we haven't managed to do in even Afghanistan. Their poppy trade is booming.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
31. Childish and stupid to think you can bomb terrorism into submission
It has never worked and it WILL never work. Kerry is a fool to think becoming a terrorist to end terrorism will ever work. Dialogue is the only answer. The US would have NO terrorist enemies if we didn't overthrow countries, murder their citizens and steal their resources. We create our terrorists and these stupid war plans against them will only make more.

It just amazes me that people are still so stupid in this day and age.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. Where the hell did he say we should become terrorist?
What's childish and stupid is to continue twisting people's words to suit one's agenda. I doubt any one here knows more about the subject than Senator Kerry to lecture him about ideology and the root causes of terrorism.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #31
54. Kerry said that "war is the failure of diplomacy"
in LA at a foreign policy conference last month. His comment in Detroit was that this wouldn't be happening if he were President, followed by comments on Bush's absense on the diplomatic front.

Note that the Detroit News article, which never made the paper, has Kerry commmenting on Iraq, then ...., then the comment on Hezzbollah. There is a lot missing. Looking at Kerry's 2004 University of Philadelphia comments on terror, and his speeches since then - Kerry has often said the world's countries need to isolate terrorists and prevent them from plunging the world into chaos. It would be far more likely that a President Kerry would have worked with Lebanon to integrate those people in Hezbollah willing to abandon terrorist goals into Lebanese society - where they could continue doing whatever good they did. Lebanon would need to arrest or kill remaining people in Hezbollah IF THEY WERE ACTIVELY ENGAGED IN TERRORIST ACTS.

Israel is not innocent - but the election that Bush insisted on over Abbas' and Israel's objections have led to a more difficult situation. Many people have tried to find a solution to the ME without success, so I will not say Kerry could resolve this. He would obviously (from his comment) NOT given Israel a green light to bomb the hell out of Lebanon.

Kerry is not a terrorist.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
33. Bin Laden imitated a fawking SHI'ITE HERETIC like Mughniyah?
Are you crazy, or what? You might notice that Al Qaeda is being vewy, vewy quiet about the Israeli decimation of Lebanese Shi'ites, because they probably appreciate not having to go to the bother of exterminating heretics themselves.

Hezbollah DID NOT EXIST until Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, and Nasrallah did not come to power until Israel assassinated his more moderate predecessor. The reason that they haven't done much in the line of international attacks is that Israel had a temporary attack of sanity and withdrew from Lebanon in 2000.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
37. Makes one wonder why Kerry was nominated
A neolib hawk is NOT what we need.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Sen. Kerry Was Nominated, Sir
Because he got the most votes from the rank and file voters of the Democratic Party.
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Exiled in America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Yeah, it was a pretty lousy year for good choices.
I've always thought that.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. I dunno
I thought he was kinda spiffy, myself
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. Yep
I'd wager that most of his support was based on his "electablity" in an environment where ABB was the guiding principle.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. Kerry is NOT a neolib hawk
nor is he a pacifist. He spoke in a recent foreign policy speech of a foreign policy where wars were rare. His book the new war was one of the first to deal with global terrorism.

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. In it he practically predicted 9/11.
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 09:44 PM by LittleClarkie
“Though this country will continue to face danger from religious extremists, homegrown
anarchists, and perennial lone-bomber types, they are all in some sense “old news.” The
terrorists of tomorrow will be better armed and organized. It will take only one mega
terrorist event in any of the great cities of the world to change the world in a single day.
As we shall see, that event could be nuclear or could just as easily occur on the Internet,
but whether our sense of secure well-being ends with a bang or a whimper will not be
the cause of the debate"

Not to mention that the day before 9/11 he was talking about terrorism and the vunerability of our ports and such, while the Bush admin was talking about Star Wars.

Indeed, he's not a neocon. But he's hyper-aware of the inner workings of international crime (which is what terrorism is, actually, crime). He knows what funds it. And he's been beating the drum for it's demise for quite a while now.

I have "A New War." I wonder if I don't make it for Xmas this year, if I could send it with one of the Kerry people and get it signed by him. I'd like that.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. He's certainly neolib
as far as his economic policies are concerned. And he certainly was a hawk - supporting the invasion and our continued presence... at least during the campaign.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Lying?
Did he or did he not vote for the use of force in Iraq? He voted to hove the president discretionary powers... so either he was for the war or he was incredibly naive in thinking that Dubya didn't want war.


.............


Friday 30 July 2004


US presidential candidate John Kerry has insisted that Washington maintains its troops in Iraq, a policy stance similar to George Bush's, despite considerable clamour in the Democratic Party for an accelerated US military pullout.



Kerry said he will try and secure greater financial and military backing from the international community for Iraq, in a speech formally accepting the Democratic nomination for president on Thursday.

Although Kerry has made a determined effort to define himself as a clear alternative to Bush at the Democratic National Convention on Thursday, on the key issue of Iraq he held out only the prospect of greater international participation.

"Here is the reality... that won't happen until we have a president who restores America's respect and leadership - so we don't have to go it alone in the world," he said. Kerry voted in the US Senate in 2002 to authorise the invasion of Iraq.


.............


Don't let selective memory steer you wrong. You can read this and weep: http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html

So when you say "Why don't you get a clue and BOTHER to look at the facts before you spout off and show your abject ignorance? Here's a hint: posting things that are not true to further whatever the hell your agenda is doesn't make you a leftist radical, it just makes you look foolish", you should look in a mirror and then wash that pie from your face.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. Spin much? That link is to Kerry's 2002 floor speech against the war
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 06:25 AM by ProSense
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. Hmmm?
The point being...? Both show Kerry's initial stance.

I'm glad he learned his lesson, doubt that it was from conviction. He learned the lesson that most of his potential supporters are viscerally against the war and has thus amended his POV accordingly.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. Pretty weak
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 10:03 AM by karynnj
This is an article, from an unnamed source that comments on the acceptance speech that we all heard. In a one hour acceptance speech where he introduced himself and spoke on many many issues - he did not lay out a complete plan on Iraq. He did that at NYU on Sept 6.

There was a concerted effort on the part of the press and the Republicans to distort eveything he said on Iraq as being "George Bush's plan as well". Looking now at what Kerry SAID and what Bush has done there is a huge difference. Kerry called for rapidly training Iraqis - and after he lost, on his ME and European trip he found that Eqypt, Jordan, France and Germany were all ready to train large numbers of Iraqis in their countries - offers Bush rejected. Kerry spoke of having a summit as soon as he was in office to leverage the neighboring countries' disincentive of having an unstable Iraq next to them. Has Condi done this? Kerry spoke of giving the Iraqis a stake in the country working by giving them reconstruction jobs - Bush gave the jobs to Halliburton and stopped the reconstruction money later. Kerry said no permanent bases - Condi wouldn't rule them out.

There was also Kerry's University of Philadelphia speech on how to deal with terrorism. His smarter way to fight it was to essentially convince states that it is in their interest as part of civilization to fight and isolate terroristic forces. The means he proposed were derided by the Republicans as "law enforcement". They ignore that it is arguable that the event that slowed international terrorism the most was the closing of BCCI, where OBL had hundreds of billions of dollars. In addition to the money itself, BCCI enabled OBL to easily move money all over the world. Kerry knew what he was speaking about. His 1997 book has his early thought on this - before any other major politician was thinking of this. It also was most definately NOT Bush's stated policy that we would attack any country that harbors terrorism.

We know many pundits lied or at least didn't tell the whole truth in 2004. In terms of Iraq, the September NYU speech IS Kerry's plan. As to the war on terror, the Philadelpia speech is. I don'ty know what your agenda is - or who you do support - but you haven't countered WEL's comments with this weak opinion piece. You also ignore that Kerry at this point is one of 13 Senators willing to commit to leaving in a defined amount of time - and is one of the strongest voices out their against Bush on this (with Feingold and Gore).
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. He said that Bush "should not rush to war"
before the war. He said many times that he would not have gone to war. As to supporting our continuing presence his plan given at NYU would have led to withdrawals starting in 2005. He REALLY would have worked to quickly train Iraqis, would REALLY have had a summit to leverage influenece of neighbors to stablize the government.

Do you think Kerry should have run on the platform that he would immediately withdraw the troops on innaugeration day? Over the last 1 1/2 years the war has become less popular, but even a month ago significantly less than half the people were for immediate withdrawal. Also, at that point, it was a good idea to leave Iraq less a mess. He would not have followed the path Bush did.

If he is a neo-liberal, why is he not seen as one by the other neo-liberals.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. No rush but...
... he voted to delegate congressional authority to wage war, knowing full well (as most pundits did) that Dubya would take that authority and run with it.

If he had BALLS he would have voted against it. His speech regarding the abdication of powers shows a politico's fence-straddling as opposed to a man with true conviction... something that showed up time and time again throughout his campaign. If Kerry had shown the balls that he's shown of late when he was still running I might have believed in him -- as it was I merely voted for him as the ABB candidate.

"If he is a neo-liberal, why is he not seen as one by the other neo-liberals."

Neolib is an ECONOMIC term and has nothing to do with foreign policy.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. "abdication of powers shows a politico's fence-straddling" What nonsense!
Every so often another person surfaces with the same nonsensical argument. Bush himself said prior to the vote that he understood it was not a vote for imminent war. One thing Bush has proven over the last few years is that he is determined to defy Congress.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Nonesensical?
The vote was indeed an abdication of Congress' constitutional mandate to declare war.
Bush said that he understood it was not a vote for imminent war? Who believed him?

Kerry seems to have believed him. Shame on him for doing so.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Like I said, nonsense! n/t
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. You're the one
for the damning argument, eh? What debating skills.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Where did I say it was a political term?
It is a separate paragraph. I've seen Kerry speak on economic issues in the Commerce committee at the confrimation hearing of Portman and at the CAFTA talks - he is not a neolib. I know he voted for NAFTA, but the speech he gave is not neo-liberal economics.

Here are the cmments on that from 1993 - They are a very good explanation of the overall problem. He also did say in 2004, that he would try to change the agreement - because side agreements that were promised were not done because Clinton couldn't get them - and because the experience had indicated that changes were needed:

In many ways, we are witnessing the most rapid change in the workplace in this country since the postwar era began. For a majority of working Americans, the changes are utterly at odds with the expectations they nurtured growing up.
Millions of Americans grew up feeling they had a kind of implied contract with their country, a contract for the American dream. If you applied yourself, got an education, went to work, and worked hard, then you had a reasonable shot at an income, a home, time for family, and a graceful retirement.
Today, those comfortable assumptions have been shattered by the realization that no job is safe, no future assured. And many Americans simply feel betrayed.
To this day I'm not sure that official Washington fully comprehends what has happened to working America in the last 20 years, a period when the incomes of the majority declined in real terms.
In the decade following 1953, the typical male worker, head of his household, aged 40 to 50, saw his real income grow 36 percent. The 40-something workers from 1963 to 1973 saw their incomes grow 25 percent. The 40-something workers from 1973 to 1983 saw their incomes decline, by 14 percent, and reliable estimates indicate that the period of 1983 to 1993 will show a similar decline.
From 1969 to 1989 average weekly earnings in this country declined from $387 to $335. No wonder then, that millions of women entered the work force, not simply because the opportunity opened for the first time. They had no choice. More and more families needed two incomes to support a family, where one had once been enough.
It began to be insufficient to have two incomes in the family. By 1989 the number of people working at more than one job hit a record high. And then even this was not enough to maintain living standards. Family income growth simply slowed down. Between 1979 and 1989 it grew more slowly than at any period since World War II. In 1989 the median family income was only $1,528 greater than it had been 10 years earlier. In prior decades real family income would increase by that same amount every 22 months. When the recession began in 1989, the average family's inflation-adjusted income fell 4.4 percent, a $1,640 drop, or more than the entire gain from the eighties.
Younger people now make less money at the beginning of their careers, and can expect their incomes to grow more slowly than their parents'. Families headed by persons aged 25 to 34 in 1989 had incomes $1,715 less than their counterparts did 10 years earlier, in 1979. Evidence continues to suggest that persons born after 1945 simply will not achieve the same incomes in middle-age that their parents achieved.
Thus, Mr. President, it is a treadmill world for millions of Americans. They work hard, they spend less time with their families, but their incomes don't go up. The more their incomes stagnate, the more they work. The more they work, the more they leave the kids alone, and the more they need child care. The more they need child care, the more they need to work.
Why are we surprised at the statistics on the hours children spend in front of the television; about illiteracy rates; about teenage crime and pregnancy? All the adults are working and too many kids are raising themselves.
Of course, there is another story to be found in the numbers. Not everyone is suffering from a declining income. Those at the top of the income scale are seeing their incomes increase, and as a result income inequality in this Nation is growing dramatically. Overall, the 30 percent of our people at the top of the income scale have secured more and more, while the bottom 70 percent have been losing. The richest 1 percent saw their incomes grow 62 percent during the 1980's, capturing a full 53 percent of the total income growth among all families in the entire economy. This represents a dramatic reversal of what had been a post-war trend toward equality in this country. It also means that the less well-off in our society--the same Americans who lost out in the Reagan tax revolution--are the ones being hurt by changes in the economy.
You might say that we long ago left the world of Ward and June Clever. We have entered the world of Roseanne and Dan, and the yuppies from `L.A. Law' working downtown.
Many, many commentators have explained how the assumptions from that long-ago world will cripple us if we do not have the courage to look at today's economy with a clear eye.
Back then, we were the only economic superpower. American companies had virtually no competition and, since they produced almost entirely in the United States, their workers felt no particular threat from workers abroad. This was the era when `Made in Japan' meant something was cheap--not good, just cheap.
Throughout the 1950's and 1960's productivity was rising rapidly throughout the American economy, so that people could expect over time to work less, but earn more.
Back then, free trade for America meant more markets for America, not competition. We maintained the Bretton Woods rules, the GATT, and other treaty obligations not only to buttress the free world against communism, and not only out of the goodness of our hearts; we enforced a basic level of stability in the world because a stable world meant open markets for us, and we made the products people most wanted to buy.
Back then, large corporations and large unions set the pace for middle-class prosperity. Remember it was Henry Ford, no fan of unions, who created the mass production line to turn out cars cheaply--cheaply enough so that his own workers could buy them. When he finally capitulated to the United Auto Workers, he gave his workers the largest settlement of the Big Three.
In those days, Fortune 500 companies controlled well over 50 percent of our total economy, and employed three-quarters of our manufacturing work force. If the New Deal built the floor for personal security in America, the corporate economy put up the middle-class safety net, with pension plans and health insurance.
In those days, American families lived on one man's paycheck, from one job that lasted with one company for an entire lifetime.
If you were laid off, you were laid off for the duration, and you were called back when business picked up.
No more.
And two key words summarize the difference: globalization and technology. Each one feeds the other. Each one confronts American employers with a choice: Can I beat the competition by making a stand in America with my own workers, or must I beat the competition by going abroad? Will my workers join the ranks of the 70 percent falling behind, or will they join the ranks of the 30 percent--or fewer--who will get ahead?
The dynamics of this are familiar to anybody who works. Technology, particularly computer technology, makes it possible to move production anywhere in the world. Technology makes it possible for formerly large corporations to make do with drastically fewer people at home. Remember those bar-code readers.
Increasingly freer trade amongst nations means that competition comes from low-wage workers in developing countries, or from high-skilled, highly productive workers in the industrialized countries. The choice is a stark one: either a nation must secure more technology and become more productive or it must underbid all others for labor and other costs. Most countries understand that this is a choice they have to make.
I submit to you, Mr. President, that this is a choice which we are not making, and the consequence is that the choice is being made for us--toward low costs, leading to the unprecedented wave of downsizing underway in our economy.
Two weeks ago an American Management Association survey reported that nearly half of the companies polled had reduced their work forces in the last year. A quarter reported that they will do so again in the coming year, some for the second or third time in 5 years, and experience shows that the number of companies that eventually downsize is twice the number that predict they will.
Workers who are downsized in today's environment are not out for the duration. They are out for good, and their ability to climb back into the economy is utterly dependent on the match between their skills and the needs of the small and midsized companies which now represent the pivot point for American economic success. Central to this division is skills: those that have them win, those that do not have them lose.
Workers with high skills can reap the rewards of the new technology, which is higher productivity. Higher productivity is not only the basis of increased pay, it is the ticket of admission to world markets, hence to growth, hence to new jobs and higher pay.
Recently Princeton economist Alan Krueger showed that workers who used computers on the job earned a 10- to 15-percent higher wage rate than otherwise similar workers. On the basis of this study, Microsoft Corp., the software giant, ran advertisements in Time magazine and elsewhere declaring `we make it easier to get a 15-percent raise.'
On the other hand, there is a growing disadvantage to not being well educated and flexibly skilled. Workers with lower skills find that technology either eliminates their jobs or moves them overseas. It is this disadvantage that lower skilled
workers face in the new global, high-technology economy that explains why they are faring increasingly poorly in terms of wages and incomes. It is these lower-skilled workers who are having the rug pulled out from under them. And it is no wonder they are scared by NAFTA .
Now, I do not come to this issue as some latter-day luddite, ready to smash bar code scanners in the supermarket and wall off our borders from foreign imports.
I believe that the change we are witnessing--whether we like it or not--is inevitable. What is not inevitable is our passivity, and our inability to make change work for, instead of against, American workers.
In the past few months I have visited any number of companies in my home State of Massachusetts that have made technology work for them and their workers. Through aggressive R&D, advanced manufacturing technology, and continuous worker training and involvement, they have maintained and often increased manufacturing jobs in Massachusetts, a State where manufacturing is supposedly dead and buried. These include the Bose Corp., a major player in the Japanese hi-fi and automotive parts market, thanks to its constant innovation; and Modicon Corp., which brought jobs back from Asia when it radically upgraded technology and workplace organization. In my State, you simply cannot create new manufacturing jobs with a low-skill, low-wage strategy. You must go the high-technology, high-skill route, and you must export.
The question is, Are we going to learn from the Boses and the Modicons?
Other nations, notably Japan and Germany, have structured their entire economies around the goal of employing their citizens in well-paying jobs. This is the goal toward which government, industry, and individuals work together.
This happened in part because they were poor in natural resources and had small home markets. And so in order to become industrialized nations they were forced to export. At an early stage, therefore, international competition became their obsession. And economic considerations often dominated foreign and security policy. They were not afraid--in part as a result of cultural differences--of an economic model where big business and big government worked together to promote long-term job creation.
But in this country, Mr. President, we are still lacking a strategy that sends out an unmistakable signal to every American that the highest priority of the American Government and American industry is ensuring that Americans have the ability to get good
jobs--maybe not one job for their entire lives, but one or a series of jobs that will support their families for the entirety of their careers.
This strategy needs to address the insecurity that people feel for their economic future and in order to do so it must recognize the centrality of education and training--two priorities on which President Clinton rightly focused during the campaign.
In 1949, we spent 9 percent of our Federal budget on education. We now spend less than 3 percent. An estimated 83 million Americans have inadequate reading skills and the United States is the only major industrialized nation in the world with no formal system or structure to facilitate the school-to-work transition. Federal support for vocational education has declined approximately 30 percent in real dollars over the last decade. Meanwhile, such competitors as Germany spend dramatically more on training the best educated and now the highest-paid workers in the world. American students attend school for 180 days per year while Japanese children go to school for 243 days and German children for 240 days. This means that our children attend school for 25 percent less time each year than their future competitors.
This is unacceptable. There is no question that our priorities have become skewed. The space station will cost us $2 billion this year, while the Federal Government will spend only $630 million on primary and secondary education. Over 80 percent of prison inmates are dropouts, and they each cost us between $15,000 and $30,000 per year to incarcerate. This situation is totally unacceptable.
We should be prepared to use any mechanism necessary to find more money to invest in our one true asset--our people. We can find this money in pork-barrel projects; in entitlement programs; we can reexamine the issue of the gas tax--surely Americans would be willing to pay a few more pennies a gallon to educate our children for the global competition they will face. There are many other places we can look for the resources--if we are serious and committed to the objective.
We need to begin by quickly funneling more money into our education budget. I strongly support Senator Jefford's suggestion that we add money to education spending in increments of 1 percent of the Federal budget until it accounts for 10 percent in the year 2004. I also agree with Senator Simon and Senator Dodd that we must abandon property tax supported education which leads to inequities among school systems.
Next, we need to quickly put in place the School-to-Work Program on which the President and Senator Kennedy have been
working. And we must not be shy about fully funding these, either. This is no place to be penny wise and pound foolish.
We must quickly enact the Worker Adjustment Program that Secretary Reich has been drafting--and I believe that we should attach it to the NAFTA as part of the implementing legislation to ensure that full help is available for all workers who need it. In addition to streamlining our disparate adjustment programs, this plan would make unemployment insurance flexible so that workers could use it as income support while they retrain--a need that did not exist when the UI system was designed to buttress workers who were temporarily laid off. It will also put the Federal Government in the business of smoothing out the labor market's information flows--so that displaced workers can find out where jobs are, what kinds of skills they require, and how they can obtain them.
And I believe, Mr. President, that we should go beyond the administration's current proposals and create an Incumbent Worker Training Program. During the campaign, President Clinton discussed encouraging companies to train their workers and I feel that we must return to that concept. We cannot wait to do this until our companies lose the global competition and our workers are downsized out of their jobs. We must help them retain the jobs they have by ensuring that they are the most technically adept in the world.
But it is not enough, Mr. President, to say `if we train them, the jobs will come.' Because the jobs may not come. A recent 2-year study of the American system of capital investment by researchers at the Harvard Business School raises the question of whether U.S. companies are sufficiently focused on the long-term to be competitive and to create high-wage jobs.
The report points out that leading American firms in many industries are outinvested by their Japanese counterparts; that the R&D portfolios of American firms include a smaller share of long-term projects than those of European and Japanese firms and that American firms invest at a lower rate than both Japanese and German firms in intangible assets--such as human resource development. The report relays the fact that American CEO's believe that their firms have shorter investment horizons than their international competitors. As a result, they sometimes confuse cutting back and downsizing with a solution--restructuring may give a short-term lift to a company's stock but unless the savings are invested in productive assets, it will not help the company compete better with its German rivals over the long run.

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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. I know he voted for NAFTA...
...but the speech he gave is not neo-liberal economics."

So, do as I say, not as I do? And BTW, it is important to understand the meaning of rhetoric. The DLC's rhetoric doesn't initially sound neoliberal - but when they talk about globalization they support it, when they talk about privatization they support it, when they talk about downsizing government they support it... albeit couched in touchy-feely progressive terms.

It looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, its DNA is of a duck, it mates with ducks, but it sounds like a goose. What is it?

Kerry's speech bemoans the course that the economy has taken - and instead of offering an alternative he proposes patches such as education et al. Those that are pulling the strings with regards to globalization (big business) can have no fear from Kerry's speech: they can go along the same as before and perhaps even profit through outsourced education. It's shallow rhetoric that doesn't address the root - and it could easily be a GOP stance.

The rhetoric is indeed attractive to us progressives. He pushes the right buttons... but he's pandering to the devil.

Just look at the GOP's site:

"America's growing economy requires a flexible, highly skilled workforce, and the President is committed to providing American workers with the training that they need to succeed. President Bush has put forth an ambitious agenda to ensure that America's economy remains the most prosperous in the world and believes we must ensure every adult can access the training necessary to close the skills gap in America.

To accomplish this, the President has proposed:

Restraining spending by the Federal Government
Working with Congress to pass legislation that promotes economic growth - including making his tax cuts permanent
Reforming the institutions fundamental to American society, so that they can meet the realities of our new century
Strengthening high schools
Preparing Americans for jobs in the 21st Century
Reforming immigration to safeguard the liberty of America
Reforming the tax code, and
Strengthening Social Security
While President Bush recognizes these are big goals, he believes we have an obligation to do what
Americans have always done - build a better tomorrow for our children and grandchildren."

http://www.gop.com/Issues/JobsAndEconomy/

Almost exactly the same. Deal with it.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Not true - he has to vote on the bill as proposed
There he was explaining his over all views on it - his choice on vote was yes/No.

The economic legislation that he has written is mostly from the small business committee - where he is the top Democrat. That includes a lot of legislation aiding minority, women and veteran businesses. It also tries to insure that small businesses get a reasonable share of government business.

Kerry wrote an amendment for CAFTA that failed on a 10 10 vote in committee to CAFTA to deal with labor issues and environmental issues.

I think that Kerry does believe what he says - especially as he is pretty consistent.

You need to deal with it.

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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Aw come on
"There he was explaining his over all views on it - his choice on vote was yes/No."

He had a third choice - abstention.

"The economic legislation that he has written is mostly from the small business committee - where he is the top Democrat. That includes a lot of legislation aiding minority, women and veteran businesses. It also tries to insure that small businesses get a reasonable share of government business. "

I'm glad that he is able to give out some sops with the neolib poison. Really I am - if the best thing our party can hope to do is to soften the extremes, it's better than nothing.

I, for one, aspire to more.

"Kerry wrote an amendment for CAFTA that failed on a 10 10 vote in committee to CAFTA to deal with labor issues and environmental issues.
I think that Kerry does believe what he says - especially as he is pretty consistent. "

I don't doubt his sincerity on this issue. He may be doing as I note above - trying to temper the extremes of neoliberalism. I'd rather he oppose it.

But that's just my choice.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. I am not sure what you would call your own position
but I assume you are more protectionist than Kerry is. While I don't think he is a neolib, he is a realist that global trade is a fact. I actually was impressed by Kerry's comments on various economic issues from trade, to the Alternative Minimum Tax, to health care. I am likely closer to Kerry's positions than I am to yours - which explains why I support him.

I would suspect on many things, Kerry is likely to work with others and compromise to get something that is better than it otherwise would be. As a Senator that is the only way he can influence things. That is also why I think the statements are relevent - he often explains what he thinks the problem is and how the bill either aggrevates the problem (NO) or moves things in the right direction. These comments plus the legislation that he has written and the programs he espoused while running for President - provide a clearer picture of what he would do as President.

You may disagree with this - but it makes sense to me and is something I have thought about. I have no idea who you do like - but I assume they likely aren't 100% of what you are looking for.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. My position?
"but I assume you are more protectionist than Kerry is"

Protectionist? No. I am against economic anarchy that only benefits the wealthy and powerful. I believe in fair trade, I believe in SOME government oversight of the economy instead of the free-for-all that has been pushed upon us (without a referendum, I might add) around the world.

"While I don't think he is a neolib, he is a realist that global trade is a fact."

It seems to me that the terms are interchangeable when one is a politician. You're for it, you're against it or you ignore it. Kerry "accepts" it, wants to paint a pretty picture around it, perhaps soften it to a degree. If he didn't believe in it he's in a position to be a statesman and to try to change its base as opposed to its appearence.

"I am likely closer to Kerry's positions than I am to yours - which explains why I support him."

Do you know mine I wonder?

"I would suspect on many things, Kerry is likely to work with others and compromise to get something that is better than it otherwise would be."

Perhaps, but is that what we need today in the face of an utterly uncompromising and radical rw?
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #37
49. Maybe we should've nominated this true anti-war candidate instead!!1
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 12:01 AM by WildEyedLiberal
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #49
57. Zactly
:thumbsup:
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. The difference
between a statesman and a time-serving politician is that a statesman guides events and a time-server is guided by them.

I, for one, am sick to death of candidates that shape their very beliefs on the basis of polls, marketing consultants and the like. I'm sick of how they obviously parrot the catchphrases that have been identified by the "experts" in political debates, press conferences and interviews.

Can't we have a politico that actually believes in things, some of which might be unpopular - but that are at least sincere and understood? I'd wager that any losses due to an unpopular idea or two would be strongly counterbalanced by the sense of conviction that the candidate would convey.

And then, of course, if one or two of his ideas are unpopular - isn't it part of his job to convince the electorate that he's right?

Kerry was a WEAK candidate. The "flip flop" attack was deserved, even if it could be applied to most candidates in this day and age.

Churchill was considered a madman by some before WWII. Lincoln's stances regarding slavery and race relations were anathema until the war was half-won. The New Deal was SOLD, it wasn't a concept that was widely considered by the electorate.

Give us a man, not a banana.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. "Give us a man, not a banana"? Absolute jibberish! n/t
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Maybe you should have read...
... the posts leading up to that outburst?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. "Give us a man, not a banana" is still jibberish! n/t
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. Actually, Kerry ran on positions that
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 04:14 PM by karynnj
were in keeping with his long public career. Dean actually was pushed by Trippi to try to "fill" the liberal opening. The moderate ex-Governor was not a liberal. He did not have an especially good environmental record. I do think he was a good Governor and has done well in the DNC.

I do think he has a tendency to speak before thinking some of the time - and the GOP takes everything and twists it to mean the very worst.
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WildEyedLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #58
75. Kerry's positions have been consistent for 40 years
Just because you may disagree with them doesn't make them inconsistent.

All your frothing ranting about Kerry has amounted to a bunch of wild accusations with no facts to back them up. You have consistently misstated his positions on the war in Iraq, refuse to acknowledge when you are proven wrong with his own words, and then resort to making vague slurs with no basis in fact. Truly pathetic.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-28-06 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. At least
his rhetoric has.
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
74. wow
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
76. It has become apparent now, that Senator Kerry was correct on
how the whole issue of terrorism should have been handled. Unfortunately, things have spun so much out of control we are now forced to use extreme measures to counter those terrorists who have now increased in numbers and influence.
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