I'm gonna say it and you're not gonna like it: Impeachment=Waste of Time

[LynneSin]

Seriously

First, we can assume that impeachment will only happen if and when we get a democratic majority. And even then, for us to remove Bush from office we would need more than a simple majority (I believe it's 2/3 or 3/5), which is highly unlikely for us to achieve this election.

And in 1998, the impeachment was nothing but a negatively over everyone and perceived as a waste of tax dollars. Yes, I know, that impeachment was over a blow job not a man who callously sent our children to die in a war that had no jusfication.

I just think there are other higher priority issues we need to deal with before the impeachment like well, first off the War and then healthcare, choice, environment, out-of-control spending.

Trust me, I want Bush gone as much as the next person, but we have so many more pressing issues to deal with that shouldn't those issues be dealt with first instead of this impeachment crap.

[Cary]

1. The impeachment of Clinton straight across party lines was a bad. . .

precedent. Impeachment shouldn't be used unless the parties seeking impeachment can show beyond a reasonable doubt that the impeachment is not partisan.

[LynneSin]

3. The crazy thing is, this should be justified

If republicans would just use their freak brain cells in a functional manner they might realize that Bush has done nothing but create giant government and increased spending PLUS the unjustified killing of lives over a war with no justification. If they realized that then they would without a doubt support us.

But as long as Bush isn't caught getting a blow job, they'll stand by him through hell and back

[Cary]

10. You are preaching to the choir on that one.

Unfortunately there are other choirs. I still say it's a bad precedent to impeach across party lines. You have to have a concensus in both parties, IMHO.

[RedstDem]

44. He Needs To Be Caught Giving One !

BJ That Is,
Then He'd Be On The Fast Track Out Of DC...
Calling Jeff Gannon.....

[LoZoccolo]

2. There's a few other things I can think of as well.

- Conservative pundits would get to go on TV every night and inundate people with talking points about how "good" Bush* is, taking away time covering his other disastrous actions.
- They'd get to replace him with someone less embarassing.
- After replacing him, the Republicans could disavow him without consequence, and thus start claiming they had nothing to do with his agenda and would then benefit from this distance.

[LynneSin]

4. They'd replace him with Dick Cheney

:scared:

[LoZoccolo]

11. That, or I wonder if they could get away with...

...replacing Dick Cheney while Bush* is still in office, or if that'd look too sneaky. They could just claim he's worried about his health, but if Bush* is in as much trouble as he is people might see right through that. They're probably not too worried about that scenario anyways, for the reasons you give about the majorities.

[calimary]

19. Doesn't matter. His time is short anyway. And for all we know,

all that thrown at him might make it even shorter. And if bush is seriously disliked, cheney's flat-out HATED.

Furthermore, Lynne, PLEASE keep the following in mind: Psychological warfare.

This is a guy who LOVES operating in the shadows, behind the curtains, under the rocks, moving unseen, until you don't realize you've been bitten until you're bleeding to death. He LOVES being the puppeteer behind the scenes, with some idiot in front of him who's taking all the jabs and attracting all the attention - SO NOBODY SEES WHAT HE, IN THE BACKGROUND, IS UP TO. He's used to working that way. Always has been. It's why, in his long career, he's always willingly been a supporting player, a kingmaker, a power-BEHIND-the-throne. He doesn't like people to see what he's up to, hence all the secrecy surrounding everything he's done. So far, he's been able to hide in the vice presidency, because bush is out there in front, so he can manipulate in secret.

ALL THAT WILL CHANGE when bush is IMPEACHED and REMOVED FROM OFFICE. Suddenly, ol' dick "go fuck yourself" will find himself squarely in the hot seat, where everybody's looking, everybody's criticizing, and by then, the national mood will be one he will NOT want to ride. I, for one, would SERIOUSLY enjoy watching him stumble and stagger under the weight of all that would fall on his shoulders, straight out there, front and center, hounded like hell from every direction, in the open where he CAN'T slither away so easily. It's where he would MOST hate to be. So it's more than okay by me if he winds up there. It'd be a Maalox moment he'd probably have to suffer for the rest of his miserable life.

That, all by itself, is reason enough for ME to push for IMPEACHMENT for bush, let along all the other highly credible and reasonable and proper reasons for doing so.

The alternative is - 2 more years of this same gawdawful shit? Do you think our country could stand it? Do you think the poor could stand it? Do you think our Constitution could stand it? Do you think our economy could stand it? Do you think the WORLD (AND our standing IN that world) could stand it?

It's just absolutely critical.

PRIORITY ONE.

Frankly, WHETHER OR NOT we get the House and Senate back.

I'm just simply not giving up.

[LynneSin]

25. Sorry when our children are dying in Iraq,

when there are people who are still homeless in New Orleans
when there are children still not covered with healthcare
When our country is pouring pollutants into this planet at a skyrocking rate
when my stepfather can't figure out his damn Prescription Plan program (ok maybe that's not important but the concept is seniors are not getting proper prescription plan coverage)

Then perhaps I find these a bit more important than revenge on Bush

[Zhade]

46. "revenge on Bush" - wow, how revealing!

It's not revenge, it's called holding someone accountable for breaking the law repeatedly.

All the things you mentioned aren't going to get BETTER if we fail to punish the criminals in office. They'll stay the same, at best.

[LynneSin]

62. Oh we can hold him accountable

but let's make some progress in the process

[Zhade]

67. Make progress by letting criminals off the hook?

Criminals whose entire political existence is bent on ending yours?

How does THAT work? Wishful thinking?

[Zhade]

47. But then, you don't see it as revenge, while LynneSin does.

I think I like your stance better - it's more in tune with things like justice and courage.

[calimary]

99. Thanks. Actually, I'll be frank here. There IS a tiny bit of revenge

in my thinking. But it's very tiny in comparison to the plain ol' statesmanlike, serious, responsible, justice-loving, Constitution-defending motivation that FAR overrides any little small-minded wish for payback. Leave that to the henry hydes of the world.

The overriding and far more important point to make is the lesson part, and the message part. IF we just let it go and wait him out, that will send a signal that we, as Americans, REALLY don't want to send to the rest of the world, to future potential schmuck politicians, AND to our children and others to whom we try to show a good example and teach a positive, uplifting and moral/ethical lesson. To let this go without at least trying to seek justice says to all those listed above, and to the world at large that - well, we're - um - kinda - well, (sigh) okay with what-all went on. And while we're not really okay with it, it's a cause not really worth fighting for. Too hard. Too (presumably) doomed. Tilting at windmills. Useless. The deck's stacked against us so why try?

I think the deck is NO LONGER stacked against us, guys. IMPEACHMENT itself used to be that unmentionable taboo that no one dared even think about, much less utter out loud, or blog about or vent about. At one time it WAS useless. There WAS too much against us. The momentum was NOT with us. ALL OF THAT HAS CHANGED. ALL OF IT. It is NO LONGER taboo to speak about. It is NO LONGER an unthinkable option or an impossible dream. Notice how often even just the idea of IMPEACHMENT comes up in conversation, on more bumper stickers, on Carl Sheeler's frickin' BILLBOARDS in Rhode Island, for heaven's sakes, in editorials, letters to the editor, movements in a growing number of cities and communities to take the bull by the balls since Congress still won't. NONE OF THAT existed, or was possible, or even breathed about, at one time. THAT HAS CHANGED.

The other MAJOR point - and the signal we, as Americans, HAVE TO send to the rest of the world, in the interest of salvaging our self-respect, AND their reason to want to trust us again, is to try to push this. It's the ONLY way we can rehabilitate ourselves with the world community, which by now is so thoroughly disgusted with our country that they can hardly even understand us anymore, no less want to do business with us or negotiate diplomacy with us with any enthusiasm or confidence that it'll amount to anything. We HAVE TO telegraph to the rest of the world that JUSTICE MATTERS, that OUR CONSTITUTION MATTERS, that OUR HONOR MATTERS, that our word can be trusted, that we still stand by, and believe in, the rule of law, and that we want to be part of the greater community of nations INSTEAD of continuing as a rogue nation and an unruly bunch of selfish, short-sighted, greedy, arrogant OUTLAWS. We HAVE TO salvage our reputation to the world. Unless we're okay with continuing to be viewed as fine with torture, pre-emptive wars against nations that didn't threaten us and whose motivations we lied about, that causes the deaths of MULTIPLE civilians in other countries - not just the deaths of our troops.

It's something we MUST do, as self-respecting Americans who believe all that stuff in those founding documents that bush openly and flagrantly regards as just pieces of paper that don't apply to him.

We HAVE TO COMMUNICATE TO THE REST OF THE WORLD that we've seen the light, we recognize and admit our wrong, and that WE WILL CORRECT IT. We HAVE TO at least show an effort toward correcting this. Otherwise we send the message loud and clear that we don't give a shit. Or that it just can't be helped. NEITHER of those statements is true, but that's what others will take to heart if we just throw up our hands, cry in our beer and do nothing.

We just absolutely, simply HAVE TO do this. Or at least try.

And my apologies for invoking that cliche - what about the children!?!?!?!? But I have to, here. Because it IS important. What, indeed, about the children who see us complaining about the evils that bush has brought about, and then see us doing NOTHING to try to rectify the situation? What about the children who WILL take away from all this that crime really DOES pay, that cheaters really DO prosper, that the bad guys DO win, and that it's okay to lie?

Furthermore, you'll spawn a whole new generation of bloodthirsty political wannabes who'll build their sordid and criminal reputations by rationalizing that - "well, bush did it and nobody said anything. Nobody cared. Must not have been that bad then, 'eh? I mean, if it was really such a bad thing, they would have, wouldn't they? Nobody stopped him. And nobody's gonna stop ME EITHER!"

Now, please tell me - you want THAT message reinforced over time?

I can't live with myself if I know that I just sat there being sad about it, feeling like there was nothing I could do. Okay, maybe there isn't. Maybe, FOR NOW, it is still not doable. But I'm damned if I'm gonna let that be that, and just accept my fate. I want my kids to remember how I saw wrong and tried to right it (like RFK senior once said), even if I fail.

It's The Quest that matters here. And to me, it's rawther a Holy one.

Lynne, I apologize if I've come off too strident and putz-ridden over this. I do NOT mean to dump on you at all. I know how desolated it feels. But I just can't sit there and embrace hopelessness. Love and peace and solidarity to you. And a big, ripe, juicy IMPEACHMENT for us all!

on edit - aw shit, sorry this is so long and blustery. Evidently, I owe more than just LynneSin an apology here...

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. I have to agree, especially about the priorities.

Alphabetically, and missing way to many issues, here is a partial list of things we need to correct and even reverse:

Agriculture - his policies have been horrific - cutting inspectors, bending over for big agra, and lessening pollution rules
Bio-ethics - get stem cell research on track
Corporate taxes and crime - Today's justice department fired or transfered those looking into big frauds, etc.
Defense - Is it unpatriotic to call on major cuts to our budget? Why do we need an anti-missile defense that does not work and will have no missiles aimed over Alaska to shoot down in the first place?
Energy - HUGE election issue, and even more HUGH governance issue
FBI - get these assholes out of my life and yours.
GAO - start listening to them rather than hiding their findings
Health Care - time for a NATIONAL solution
mmigration - Let's deal with this in a human, rational manner
Justice - Fire, and perhaps indict, EVERY SINGLE APPOINTEE FROM GONZALES AND ASHCROFT
K-12 - our education policy sucks. Leave no child's behind just screws the kids.

and lots, lots more.

[Pierre.Suave]

6. There are many more good reasons

most important among them is the threat to the constitution and the precedent that would be set if we let them get away with it. I think it is the most important reason, even more than the war in Iraq.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

112. "Let them get away with it" isn't an appropriate phrase.

It implies that there's a possibility of preventing them getting away with it. If there were, I agree it would be worth taking, but an attempt at impeachment would be an empty political gesture without a chance of success, so the precedent will be set either way, unfortunately.

[Pierre.Suave]

115. I am sorry

but I disagree. If we dont we just encourage it in the future.

[calimary]

7. My apologies, but I'm NOT giving up on it.

And WHEN we get the Dems back in control, I'm gonna nag and scream and belly-ache like there's no tomorrow for IMPEACHMENT.

It's important to send a message to all future evil doers.

It's important to strike a blow for justice.

It's important to telegraph far and wide that these crimes will NOT go ignored, glossed over, or unpunished.

It's important to send a message to our allies and friends and former friends and pretty much everybody else around the world who's now thrown up their hands at us, or who don't trust us anymore, or who view us as the enemy or the biggest threat to world peace.

It's important even if it goes no farther than the House of Reps. Clinton's didn't either, because the Senate wouldn't convict. But it didn't matter. It's on his permanent record ANYWAY. I think dubya deserves the same, AT THE VERY LEAST.

It's important because this is NOT a stupid, embarrassing, partisan smackdown because the illicit blowjob was all they could find to hang our guy on. This is ANYTHING BUT a triviality on which they hung Clinton. AND EVERYBODY RECOGNIZED IT. That's why MoveOn got started. That's why Clinton's impeachment stalled in the Senate and the House attack dogs couldn't win a conviction. Don't you remember the groundswell of public disgust - that sufficient numbers of uncomfortable, queazy-stomached Senators heard, and heeded? The same conditions ARE NOT OPERATIONAL HERE!!! This is an IMPEACHMENT that is MOST worthy, credible, and of great consequence, about matters of the same weight and ranking. This is a frickin' WAR THAT WAS STARTED ON LIES!!! This is EXTREME, FLAGRANT, and REPEATED obstruction of justice!!! This is a nightmare that includes TORTURE, DOMESTIC SPYING, and other domestic terrorism of bush's jackbooters - forced upon the rest of us. I do NOT think there will be ANY groundswell telling Congress OR the Senate to just move on and forget about all this - NOT IN THIS CASE. There'll be whinings and whimperings from the various schmucks, krauthammers, Pox-bots and limbots of the world. But there are MORE OF US THAN THERE ARE OF THEM, and this, truly, is a different situation altogether.

It's important.

It. Just. Is.

Besides, about that ratio of votes we'd need - don't think for one instant that the bad guys who remain after November don't recognize momentum when they see it. And there still are a few among them who are still honorable, and they should (and CAN) be persuaded that NOT TO ACT makes them all look even worse than bush and his abominable policies and incompetence and deceit and arrogance makes them look now.

It's important. NOW. MORE THAN EVER.

IMPEACHING that little schmuck is only an exercise in futility IF YOU ALLOW IT TO BECOME SO.

Take heart, Lynne. Don't give up. And don't let the bastards get you down! Think of what is possible! Like THIS MOVEMENT!!!

[LynneSin]

13. And what message did we learn from the last impeachment

:shrug:

People ignored it in droves and thus the message was lost. I remember that impeachment and most just thought it was a waste of tax dollars

I would think a more important message is if we could start overturning or pushing back some of this corruption being done. when people see positive changes then they'll sit up and take notice.

In 2001, the Government Affairs committee (led by none other than Joe Lieberman) decided to investigate the California Energy Crisis (something that Bush and repuked controlled committees refused to do). What I'd like to see done is this being investigated again because if we can force a reduction in gas costs that would be a major bonus for democrats in 2008!

[Cary]

20. Agreed.

"I would think a more important message is if we could start overturning or pushing back some of this corruption being done. when people see positive changes then they'll sit up and take notice."

As a whole we all reacted positively to Bill Clinton. The pukes are doing their best to rewrite that history though.

[calimary]

23. The people DID ignore it in droves. Why? Because it was about

a blow job.

And EVERYBODY saw that for what it was. An impeachment about a blow job. It should be no surprise to anyone why the support for it was so lackluster. It was stupid and embarrassing and a horrific waste of time and tax dollars.

You're correct there.

But THIS TIME IS DIFFERENT. The SITUATION is different. The CONDITIONS are different. The REASONS are different. A blow job is a frickin' triviality (and EVERYONE recognized that). Lying about sending our nation to war is NO triviality AT ALL.

It is DIFFERENT this time, my friend. COMPLETELY different. The reasons are EXTREMELY credible and legitimate. If Clinton had done THIS kind of shit, hell - if ANY Democrat had done THIS kind of shit, you'd be totally correct to support it.

Clinton's impeachment was scoffed at and regarded as a waste - BECAUSE IT WAS A WASTE. The REASON for it was regarded as a world-wide embarrassment. THIS IS ANYTHING BUT.

[earth mom]

38. Exactly-Very well said!!!

:applause:

The OP can't argue with you, that's for sure!

[KitSileya]

35. Yeah, on this issue Im like

Benton Fraser in the Due South episode 'Good for the Soul'. Some crimes are too big to let people get away with doing them if you can bring them to justice - no matter the cost. What will the Constitution be worth if Bush and his pals get away with all they've done? It won't be worth the paper it's written on, and that will be the value set on it not by the neo-cons, but by decent Americans. We know the neo cons value the Constitution less important than toilet paper - do you really want our side to toss it away as lightly?

[tridim]

8. I don't care how, but BushCo needs to be punished before they leave office

Otherwise we'll have many more BushCo type administrations in the future.

Impeaching Bush is not enough, we need to take down the entire administration.

[The_Casual_Observer]

9. At this point the major damage is done. All we can hope to do

at this point is to contain it.

[Zhade]

49. Oh, I don't know, I think he can do far worse.

We're still not under martial law, for example.

[Redbear]

12. I respectfully disagree.

I agree he would never be kicked out by 2/3.

However,

Hearings must be held and charges must be leveled regarding his high crimes and misdemeanors.

It is the MOST important thing Congress can do for the long-term good of the country.

The entire world and future generations need to hear loudly that the criminal actions of this adminstration are not who we are as a country.

Otherwise, the next GOP adminsitration will push our country even farther toward fascism.

[LynneSin]

16. Yes - hearings should be held and you know they will

Especially with people like John Conyers in charge of the Judiciary and Henry Waxman in charge of Government Reform.

I think we would have a better chance of getting an impeachment if we didn't go pushing the agenda if we get control. It would be better to investigate and expose the truth with hearings and perhaps if we're lucky we might find the smoking gun.

[Zhade]

51. "Agenda", "revenge" - nice job echoing the rightwingers, Lynne.

It's not helpful, you know.

As far as smoking guns - how many do you think we need before impeachment can occur? Aren't the ones we already have enough?

The American Bar Association certainly thinks so, and I think their legal opinion outweighs yours, with all due respect.

[mtnsnake]

14. If we get a democratic majority & don't impeach Bush, I'll be the most

disappointed member of this forum.

Whether or not he's actualy removed from office is one thing, but if we get the votes needed to at least impeach him...and we don't do it...it would be like opening the door even wider for future monsters like Bush to abuse the most important position in the world and get away with it again.

If they can, they better impeach him. If they don't try, then they're gutless. I think they'll go for it, though.

[LynneSin]

17. Good, then my thread has served a purpose

you can start preparing for your disappointment now.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't IGNORE holding hearings about the crimes of the Bush regime - oh believe me that will happen

[mtnsnake]

30. Sorry, but you need to start preparing for YOUR disappointment, Lynne

If the Democrats gain the one vote majority in the House that they'll need to impeach, and if they don't do it, then you and all of us should be disappointed and ashamed that they're the number one collective bunch of gutless wonders in the world.

Hopefully, they'll impeach the rotten bastard and see that justice is done. I don't see how any single one of them could ever look themselves in the mirror if they have the votes to impeach and don't go for it.

[theboss]

28. There is no way they would go that route.

You don't regain power for the first time in 12 years and piss it away on a fool's errand.

[Zhade]

54. Punishing those who break the law is a fool's errand?

Can we please release all the nonviolent drug offenders in prison, then?

[Zhade]

53. I agree with everything except the last sentence.

No idea if that'll actually happen with this gang.

[flpoljunkie]

15. I agree. History will not treat "President Simple" kindly.

[BrewAz]

18. I could not disagree more....

Impeachment is the only solution...other wise I would not have started my previous thread on Impeachment.. Impeachment fixes the issues we have with the Shrub faux-adminstration as well as the issues raised.

Even with a Dem congress...Do you think Bush would sign a bill that contradicted something he did previously? Not realistic....It took him 5 1/2 years to veto a bill. You would see nothing but...besides, he has all of the 750+ signing statements that he could hide behind.

YES, we need to address all the domestic foibles as well as the sick foreign situations we are in...but impeachment will make it possible.

And in this case, it would be a DOUBLE IMPEACHMENT...bring proceedings against BUSH and "Dark Side" Cheney. It is the only way....and I do not care if it took 2 years...congress could be working the rest of the issues while they were keeping the administration and its bull dog legal folks at bay with the impeachment proceedings.

BrewAz

[LynneSin]

22. Fixes how?

:shrug:

The man will still be in office, we'll be about $100million dollars less in tax dollars and our country will still be in the same exact position with our children dying in an unjust war.

[BrewAz]

27. Should have said...

initiates the fix. All of course is predicated on the Dems taking control of congress....and then with whatever sane Repubs are left...making the impeachment of the administration stick.

You are right about the war effort..but waiting until 2008 to start changing things...is too much to consider. Change must start now...as soon as possible. Even with a Dem congress...and the Bush admin in place, nothing will change from a policy stand point. It would just be a standoff...and our soldiers lose, the poor lose, our economy suffers....the rich continue to win.

Can things be changed over night? I am not that naive...

BrewAz

[Zhade]

55. How about "fixes the perception criminals can get away with murder"?

I happen to think that's an especially important perception to destroy, after our nation's failure to punish those who broke the law during Iran-Contra - those same criminals made their way back into power under this administration and are leading the United States to utter ruin.

Call me crazy, but letting criminals rape (or order rape) pillage, plunder, and destroy and get away with it tends to make my blood boil.

[LynneSin]

21. I'd like to add this on the my original post

I don't think an impeachment will happen and perhaps I think it's a waste of time.

HOWEVER!!!!

That doesn't mean we just roll over and do nothing - far from it. One doesn't need to be in the 'impeaching' mode to hold an investigation on faulty intel used to start the war or illegal spying or human rights violations or energy companies bilking the consumers.

These along with many many more issues MUST be investigated but without a democratic majority we're stuck in a little used closest with poor ventiliation and no ability to subpeona the people we need for a true hearing (although Conyers is trying - bless him!). But we do need to investigate all of these issues and allow people like Conyers, Murtha & Waxman to do what they do best - find the truth!

Perhaps through a host of hearings and exposes we might have the knowledge base needed then to do an impeachment but right now to impeach soon after we get a majority will be a poor manuever on our party's sake.

[BeFree]

26. The only way he won't.....

....be impeached is if they steal the elections, again.

[Zhade]

56. If I may ask - what good does it to hold hearings without penalties?

A toothless investigation, so we can avoid the same mistakes later? How would that do any good, exactly? If these criminals get away with all this, and all that happens is a series of hearings, they'll know they can't or won't be stopped next time.

[Awsi Dooger]

24. Not just a waste of time; suicidal

It would reinforce the current stereotype we have no ideas, other than negativity toward the other side. If you don't think that's the prevalent flaw, try posting on some balanced political sites. I do. It's not merely the right wingers who say that, the most balanced and level headed posters always come back to it, even if they dramatically favor our candidates and our positions. Until we stick a few simplistic positive slogans and themes into the American vocabulary and mindset, we're never going to take full advantage, this November or foreseeable.

Impeachment would be like 9/11 all over again, a shift of several points in party ID away from our side, and no telling how long it takes to get it back.

[Zhade]

57. So - hold criminals accountable for crimes, lose voters...

...don't hold criminals accountable for crimes - keep voters who have to live with the result of letting criminals get away with murder.

Right.

[calimary]

102. So you DON'T put it that way. Make sure it's always spoken about,

and framed - as far as we can, in as many ways and using as many vehicles as we can - that this is about JUSTICE, and RECTIFYING something VERY VERY wrong with our country. This is about REHABILITATING OURSELVES in the eyes of the world.

The world NEEDS to see that we're NOT asleep anymore, that we know the difference between right and wrong, lies and truth, arrogance and cooperation. The world (and our young people and anyone else who USED TO have good reason to look up to us as a nation) NEEDS to trust us again. That is not possible at present. And it won't be possible if we just let 'er ride without at least trying to fix the problem. Do you say oh, the boat is taking on water, and oh, well, nothin' we can do about it... no point in trying... I guess we just sink?

[mopinko]

29. you are not gonna get any of those things

until you dismember the octopus. electoral defeat will not accomplish that. only the full light of day, and the full force of law will. only the ultimate penalty of our democracy will.
and, of course, there is no comparison whatsoever to clinton. every one was bothered by it because they did not want him impeached, and saw it for the attempted coup that it was.
this would be an impeachment from the bottom up. this is bubbling up from city councils and state legislatures everywhere. if you can't impeach a guy for starting world war III, we have no checks and balances any more. which we know, but...

and many of the impeachment resolutions cite at least bush and cheney, and many go all the way down the chain. what we need is nuremberg style impeachment. there is no reason that it could not be done that way. no "one to a customer" limits apply.

at the very least the constant cries for impeachment from local governments is the drip, drip, drip of the truth.

[Zhade]

58. Very good (and dare I say, smart!) points.

NT!

[JAYJDF]

31. I don't see impeachment as a waste of time. The little sht needs

to squirm. But I think the bigger crime and punishment for him would be war crimes. Held on a world stage. Taking the Dems and Repubs out of the equation. Can anyone come up with an argument against war crimes?

[mtnsnake]

32. You aint just a kiddin. This isn't some "Boys will be boys" thing

This is serious justice of the world class variety.

[leesa]

33. It's is their JOB to impeach him if he has committed crimes. It's not

optional.

[Zhade]

59. If?

Yep, you're correct - and the ABA just concluded he's breaking the law!

That's in only ONE area, too.

[Double T]

34. AGREED!! The best way to neutralize bushco is to win back........

a majority in the House and Senate and SHUTDOWN any further bushco/neocon legislation from consideration.

[earth mom]

36. NO. The * Co Criminals must be held responsible and pay for their crimes.

PERIOD. :grr:

[Zhade]

60. No, that's just revenge.

Well, or so SOME think. :eyes:

I completely agree with you, fwiw.

[Stinky The Clown]

37. I understand what you're saying ... but I *still* favor impeachment

I do agree with those who say it has to at least have **some** bipartisan support. I honestly think that some can be found.

But here's why I favor it.

What these people have done to our country is extra-constitutional. They broke serious laws. Some has risen, in my view, to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors. They have plundered our national treasury, spilled the blood of our young people and squandered our standing in the world.

These are VERY serious issues. I know so many of us are on outrage overload and have become numb to the level of crimes they've done.

But the crimes are real and for the good our country and, really, for the good of the world, we need to demonstrate our resolve to punish such acts.

[Zhade]

61. We've seen what happens when we DON'T punish criminals.

A lot of the people in the current administration broke the law during Iran-Contra, too, and look where we are now!

[calimary]

104. Hear, hear! Or here, here! However you spell it.

It's just something we MUST do as Americans, to regain our self-respect. If we don't at least try, we can justly be regarded as hopeless a bunch of miscreants and rogues and outlaws as he is. And there is NO WAY IN HELL that I want to be lumped into the same categories of criminality as that bastard is.

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. I completely agree

Democrats need to formulate good policy if they take either branch, not fiddle with the sunken Bush Administration. Investigations? Sure. Impeachment as top priority: big political loser.

[JAYJDF]

40. Any way all members of Congress could be held accountable as

accomplices? I mean, they stood idle ly by for years allowing perpetuating his lawlessness.

[theanarch]

41. of course impeachment proceedings...

should be started; hell, it should be the banner screaming across every Democrat's website, billboard, lawn sign, bumpersticker..."VOTE FOR ME AND I'LL IMPEACH THE SOB" for the crimes of...(fill in your favorite blank). Impeachment should be the centerpiece of the campaign, if only to send a clear and unmistakable message to voters that Democrats actually DO stand for something important (say, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Geneva Convention, the UN Charter), as well as a few minor things, like common sense and dignity. The M$M isn't going to give Democrats a fair shake in any event, so they might as well frame the issues to their (Democrat's) liking, and let the media whores do their worst (again, it's not like they wouldn't otherwise). And above all, let the voters decide--i'm willing to trust the public to know the difference between lying about a blow job and lying about a war (or two, or three). Just as it's better to vote for what you want and lose, than to vote for what you don't want and win (which is what we get from the DLC), it's better for Democratic candidates to lose with their principles, than to win without them.

As for replacing Junior (our court-appointed usurper) with Unka Dick (his court-appointed guardian), so much the better...it's about time that foul-mouthed, fowl-slaughtering, Mayberry Machiavelli was dragged from his Undisclosed Hiding Place, and into the media spotlight. Like a vampire exposed to the sun, it'll be fun to watch him shrivel up and die in the harsh, unforgiving light of transparancy.

[Zhade]

63. Excellent post.

We simply must punish criminals who lie others into the grave, or lose all right to call ourselves decent human beings.

[calimary]

105. Another excellent post.

I blather on for paragraphs. You nail it in one sentence.

:yourock:

[onenote]

42. Agreed. (And its 2/3 vote -- a number we cannot reach in 2006)

If the Democrats recapture the House in 2006, and then make impeachment their number one priority,they will accomplish several things, none of them good for the Democratic party in general or for progressives. First, it will rally the Republican base, big time, for 2008. Second, it will allow the republicans off the hook on the issue that resonates with most independents and an increasing number of republicans -- the bushbots incompetence and ill advised policy choices -- by focusing on legal arguments that the average person won't follow and won't care about. Third, it likely would result in the Democratic leadership being put on the defensive -- having to explain how putting the country through a divisive, time consuming impeachment fight that cannot possibly result in the removal of the President because the votes aren't there in the Senate -- when bush and his crew will be gone from office at the end of 2008 in any event. (Every criticism Democrats have ever levelled at the repubs for pursuing "lost cause" votes on constitutional amendments will be thrown back in our faces).

It will change the focus of the 2008 elections from what the repubs haven't done to what the Democrats haven't done, which is actually govern when given a majority in Congress.

[SaveElmer]

43. I agree...but the most important reason...

Is that in politics there is a VERY small window of time to actually accomplish something before the pressure of the next campaign cycle becomes too great. We need to press on a whole host of issues from minimum wage, to environmental protection, to energy policy, social security protection...and on and on and on....

Impeachment would dominate all political discourse for months, leaving the possibility of progress on any of these things totally impossible!

[Zhade]

45. Yeah, I mean, why punish criminals for their crimes?

What a cowardly stance to take, especially with anger at the administration so high!

[onenote]

52. yeah, I'm angry at this administration. I'm furious at them

But the fact is that while a growing segment of the country is angry with the administration, their anger doesn't match yours or mine. Moreover, its largely based on dissatisfaction with chimpy's decision making and on a growing sense that this truly is the most incompetent presidency in history. But that anger will dissipate if the focus is moved from chimpy's incompetece and poor choices to legal arguments about whether high crimes warranting impeachment have occurred, especially when the public realizes, as they will very quickly, that any impeachment effort by the Democrats is simply for show since there is no way that the requisite 2/3 of the Senate will vote to remove him from office.

[Zhade]

65. I don't think calling for punishment of proven crimes is "for show".

I guess that's where we differ.

[onenote]

71. It is when there is no chance of acheiving that result

While I think some repubs oppose gay marriage or support a flag burning amendment because its politically convenient (and they actually would prefer for the amendment to fail so they can use it to make poitical hay), I dont' doubt that for some repubs, their positions reflect sincerely held (albeit incredibly and totally wrongheaded) beliefs. But whether or not they sincerely want a particular result, I regard the efforts to push such proposals to a vote to be nothing more than a "show" since there is no chance of passage. The same would be the case for impeachment, and just as the electorate is growing tired of the repubs wasting time on picking divisive fights, the public will quickly become impatient with Democrats if we devote ourselves to an impeachment fight rather than to ending the Iraq war, dealing with energy issues, rebuilding a safety for those most in need, etc.

[Zhade]

73. I still disagree. It sends the message that WE'RE for justice.

I find nothing, NOTHING, wrong with standing up against criminals, regardless of the popularity or feasibility of such an action.

As to your last line, there's no reason not to tie those to impeachment, by making the case (it's already made) that those things are being frustrated by the gang of criminals in the White House.

I see no good argument against trying to remove criminals from power.

[onenote]

78. you believe the case has been made, but of course it hasn't

because ultimately impeachment is a political act layered onto a legal proceeding. WHich means the following: any attempt to impeach chimpy will bog down into a battle over the legality of various actions. Chimpy will argue for an expansive view of presidential authority to take actions to protect the nation from enemies. I think this is bullshit, but what I think or you think doesn't matter. Nor, in this odd instance, would it matter what any court would think. That's because the only "court" considering this is a court made up of elected politicians with no review of their decisions allowed. Chances are a significant portion of the public, having already expressed ambivalence rather than outrage over chimpy's abuses will continue to have the same ambivalence. This lack of enthusiasm for impeachment will translate into cover for repubs (and some Democrats from red-leaning states) to vote against impeachment and/or conviction. And then what do you have: the repubs running around claiming to have been vindicated despite the efforts of a bunch of crazy Democrats who were more interested in revenge for Bill Clinton's impeachment than they were in actually governing the nation. ANd that will be the meme we face heading into 2008. Thanks, but no thanks.

[Zhade]

84. The case that they have broken our, and international, laws...

...is more than made.

If you prefer not to push for impeachment, fine. But we're not going to stop, no matter how much people who can't take that step wish we would.

Sorry, not letting criminals off the hook, not for any amount of political calculation.

[LynneSin]

64. How is slapping a man on the hand considered punishment

which is basically what would result from an impeachment.

I'd rather we just work on ending this war and making a change for this country and showing why democrats should be in charge in 2008

[Zhade]

66. Uh, who says it's a slap on the hand?

The Constitution doesn't, since it makes impeachment the first step in removing a criminal from office.

Look, I support those things you just listed, but you're not going to end this war with these criminals still in power. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

[LynneSin]

69. And where are we going to get the 17 needed republican senators

to make it happen (it could be 10 I'm not sure if it's 2/3 or 3/5)

But the point is we don't have that even if we get the majority.

Investigate the crimes, hold the hearings, subpeona the witnesses but don't worry about impeachment unless we have commitment from THEIR team that they also support it

[LynneSin]

70. If we impeach Bush, tell me where we get the 17 republican senators?

to support impeachment? (mind you it could be 10, I"m about ready to run out the door so dont' sue me if it's 3/5ths and not 2/3rds but even with 10 - where are you going to get them).

Democratic majority will not remove Bush from office, that requires either 3/5 or 2/3 (someone please look it up) in order to have him removed.

[Zhade]

74. So we shouldn't even try to hold criminals accountable?

Hell, the American Revolution only had 14% approval ratings when it began, should they have folded so easily?

I might have taken your arguments a little more seriously if you hadn't tipped your hand by calling the desire to hold criminals accountable for egregious crimes "revenge".

(But then, your arguments still don't sway me from the very important principle of holding criminals accountable for their massive, massive crimes.)

[onenote]

79. can I get a link for that revolution-era poll you cite?

[onenote]

80. impeachment is a poor way to establish criminality

its a political process more than a legal process. Yet if we lose...and of course we will because the votes aren't there...what we will have done is not promote justice, but rather we will have handed the repubs a chance to run around saying that chimpy has been "vindicated". No thanks.

[Zhade]

88. As I said, if you choose not to work on removing criminals from power...

...that's your right. I'll work on the side of those attempting to punish the criminals in office, because i can't fool myself into thinking that letting these guys get away with their crimes will enable us to move our positive agenda forward.

They're standing in the way, and IMHO they must be removed from power before that progress can be made.

[LynneSin]

124. You know there are other ways to do that

Geez, one track mine is not going to solve this problem.

I'm not letting Bush get away with it, I'm just saying that if we get a democratic majority we have alot of work to do that is more pressing than an impeachment. One of the problems we have had the past 6 years is the fact that we have no control over the committee and thus no ability to subpeona the type of witnesses we need to investigate all the misgivings going on with this administration.

And with us coming close to 2600 dead over in Iraq (and that's just the soldiers), nothing peronal but the impeachment means far less to me than a plan to get our soldiers out of their in one piece and end this travesty. To push an impeachment through first thing would be nothing more than revenge and shows just how little we really care about the people who haves suffered these past 6 years. We need to make changes first

[Wisconsin Larry]

83. It is 2/3 of those voting to convict so it's 67 if all 100 members

are present. Regarding priorities. Let's say a Democratic Congress does work on the myriad of issues/crises creating by the neocons and pass appropriate legislation. What's to keep Bush from including a signing statement saying the bill doesn't take effect in war time?

[Zhade]

86. There IS nothing. NOTHING.

What some are forgetting is that these people are CRIMINALS.

They don't care what progress we make, they will - and do - find a way to undermine or destroy it.

But the argument is that if we DON'T punish them for doing so, they'll suddenly regain their respect for the law and our Constitution and we can make said progress?

That's just fucking insane!

[AtomicKitten]

48. I respectfully disagree.

I strongly feel accountability is crucial for the wellbeing of our democracy.

We require a reckoning if only as a gesture signaling the beginning of a sea change in the historical course of events.

[Zhade]

68. Right on.

NT!

[IChing]

85. Sounds like something the republicans would do..hold no one accountable.

Sorta like a "american dream" version of hypocrisy.....How about these for reasons or do we not look at this anymore and just
turn our collective democratic heads and look the other way? I guess none of these charges are worth spending our time on.


1) Seizing power to wage wars of aggression in defiance of the U.S. Constitution, the U.N. Charter and the rule of law; carrying out a massive assault on and occupation of Iraq, a country that was not threatening the United States, resulting in the death and maiming of over one hundred thousand Iraqis, and thousands of U.S. G.I.s?


2) Lying to the people of the U.S., to Congress, and to the U.N., providing false and deceptive rationales for war?


3) Authorizing, ordering and condoning direct attacks on civilians, civilian facilities and locations where civilian casualties were unavoidable?


4) Instituting a secret and illegal wiretapping and spying operation against the people of the United States through the National Security Agency?


5) Threatening the independence and sovereignty of Iraq by belligerently changing its government by force and assaulting Iraq in a war of aggression?

6) Authorizing, ordering and condoning assassinations, summary executions, kidnappings, secret and other illegal detentions of individuals, torture and physical and psychological coercion of prisoners to obtain false statements concerning acts and intentions of governments and individuals and violating within the United States, and by authorizing U.S. forces and agents elsewhere, the rights of individuals under the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights?


7) Making, ordering and condoning false statements and propaganda about the conduct of foreign governments and individuals and acts by U.S. government personnel; manipulating the media and foreign governments with false information; concealing information vital to public discussion and informed judgment concerning acts, intentions and possession, or efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction in order to falsely create a climate of fear and destroy opposition to U.S. wars of aggression and first strike attacks?


8) Violations and subversions of the Charter of the United Nations and international law, both a part of the "Supreme Law of the land" under Article VI, paragraph 2, of the Constitution, in an attempt to commit with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes in wars and threats of aggression against Afghanistan, Iraq and others and usurping powers of the United Nations and the peoples of its nations by bribery, coercion and other corrupt acts and by rejecting treaties, committing treaty violations, and frustrating compliance with treaties in order to destroy any means by which international law and institutions can prevent, affect, or adjudicate the exercise of U.S. military and economic power against the international community?


9) Acting to strip United States citizens of their constitutional and human rights, ordering indefinite detention of citizens, without access to counsel, without charge, and without opportunity to appear before a civil judicial officer to challenge the detention, based solely on the discretionary designation by the Executive of a citizen as an "enemy combatant?"


10) Ordering indefinite detention of non-citizens in the United States and elsewhere, and without charge, at the discretionary designation of the Attorney General or the Secretary of Defense?


11) Ordering and authorizing the Attorney General to override judicial orders of release of detainees under INS jurisdiction, even where the judicial officer after full hearing determines a detainee is wrongfully held by the government?


12) Authorizing secret military tribunals and summary execution of persons who are not citizens who are designated solely at the discretion of the Executive who acts as indicting official, prosecutor and as the only avenue of appellate relief?


13) Refusing to provide public disclosure of the identities and locations of persons who have been arrested, detained and imprisoned by the U.S. government in the United States, including in response to Congressional inquiry?


14) Use of secret arrests of persons within the United States and elsewhere and denial of the right to public trials?



15) Authorizing the monitoring of confidential attorney-client privileged communications by the government, even in the absence of a court order and even where an incarcerated person has not been charged with a crime?


16) Ordering and authorizing the seizure of assets of persons in the United States, prior to hearing or trial, for lawful or innocent association with any entity that at the discretionary designation of the Executive has been deemed "terrorist?"


17) Engaging in criminal neglect in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, depriving thousands of people in Louisiana, Mississippi and other Gulf States of urgently needed support, causing mass suffering and unnecessary loss of life?


18) Institutionalization of racial and religious profiling and authorization of domestic spying by federal law enforcement on persons based on their engagement in noncriminal religious and political activity?


19) Refusal to provide information and records necessary and appropriate for the constitutional right of legislative oversight of executive functions?


20) Rejecting treaties protective of peace and human rights and abrogation of the obligations of the United States under, and withdrawal from, international treaties and obligations without consent of the legislative branch, and including termination of the ABM treaty between the United States and Russia, and rescission of the authorizing signature from the Treaty of Rome which served as the basis for the International Criminal Court?

[Zhade]

90. HELL YES!

GET HIM!

I mean, if we can look at this and say "well, there's no point, we shouldn't try", then we cease to be concerned with liberty and justice for all.

Then we might as well BE Republicans!

[onenote]

93. bull -- impeachment isn't about justice, its about politics

Not supporting an impeachment effort that is doomed to failure does not mean one isn't concerned with liberty and justice. Rather it means that one recognizes that impeachment proceedings aren't about justice, they are about politics and impeachment is a poor strategy for obtaining justice. Justice is far more likely to be obtained if the politicians take themselves out of the equation. Leave it to a Democratic president's Department of Justice, aided by disclosures uncovered by a Democratic Congress' investigations, to pursue justice after chimpy and gang have left office. Justice and smart politics all rolled into one.

[AtomicKitten]

94. no, it's about accountability. n/t

[onenote]

96. and what accountability is achieved by a failed impeachment effort?

Wouldn't it be better to focus on winning control of the government and then having the tools of that government -- the Justice Department, Congressional investigations etc. go after private citizen chimpy and cheney and others?

[AtomicKitten]

98. I don't subscribe to the foregone conclusion you have that it will fail

Besides, it's the right thing to do based on our constitution.

[calimary]

107. And you have to remember one thing:

WHEN the Dems get the House and hopefully also the Senate back, just imagine the repercussions of that. Think of it. The momentum will be OURS. The justice-seekers will be in position in the House Judiciary Committee (Conyers) and more. That juggernaut that will have driven sufficient numbers of republi-CONS from office will NOT be ignorable by them. They will NOT be able to ignore it. Those who remain will be FORCED to recognize - AND read - the writing on the wall. They'll see a momentum that is powerful enough to push their friends out of office, and some of them will realize that THEY are next if they don't get behind it, at least to some extent, themselves.

Please remember - especially you young 'uns - it was the GOP that finally sank Nixon's boat. They realized it was no longer floatable, and told him so in no uncertain terms. They told him he'd lost their support and their confidence - and that happened because they, themselves, could see the handwriting on the wall. And those pragmatists among them recognized that this was a speeding freight train that would run them all down if they didn't either jump aboard or get out of the way. There will be those who are left who will fear for their own careers and paychecks, and they'll bend the way the wind is blowing. And they'll say it's for the good (and for the survival) of their own party. And they'll be correct. It's amazing how things can change when the wind does. And look how a loud, nasty minority has monopolized the whole game - even while in the minority! What would happen if OUR side started roaring? The way we start roaring is by not giving up before the game's even begun.

Besides, when the Dems take back the ballgame, you must not forget how delicious it will be to read the miles and miles of news copy and the hours and hours and hours of TV and radio punditry talking about how kkkarl has lost his golden touch and what a cataclysmic reversal of fortune this is. Which, mind you, adds to OUR momentum. Those who survive will be panic-stricken that their golden boy didn't save their sorry asses, and that maybe he's just run through the last of his nine lives (with my deepest apologies to cats everywhere).

NOBODY is invincible forever. And when that happens in our favor, we need to RUN with it.

[AtomicKitten]

113. I wish I was a young'un!

Ha. Actually the first election I voted in was against during Nixon's tenure. But I digress.

I do not disagree with your reasoning, however, I believe it is critical to do the oversight this congress has failed to do and to explore the many areas where BushCo has broken the law. I agree the thrust should not be with the immediate goal of impeachment in mind, but I have no doubt the findings of those investigations will put us on that road.

The Dems will have the power, that is if Diebold let's us, to assign investigative committees these tasks.

[IChing]

119. Each of those counts are criminal and hold penalities let alone

the civil penalties..

IS IT POLITICAL? YOU BET,
WHAT THEY HAVE DONE WAS BOTH POLITICAL AND CRIMINAL
IN TOTAL DISREGARD FOR THE LAW.

"I consider trial by jury as the only anchor
yet imagined by man
by which a government can be
held to the principles of its constitution"
. -- Thomas Jefferson

"The strength of the Constitution lies
entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it.
Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share
in this defense are the constitutional rights secure. "
-- Albert Einstein

[OneBlueSky]

128. trying to save our republic is a waste of time? . . . I think not . . n/t

.

[derby378]

50. George W. Bush is a traitor

If "we, the people" do not hold him accountable, who will?

[Catchawave]

72. Thanks Lynne, I so agree with you !

I don't want to Impeach Bush as much as I'd like to put the little prick in his place with some democratically elected checks and balances :patriot:

[Zhade]

75. Uh, but these criminals don't respect checks-and-balances.

So where do you get the idea that they'll suddenly start if we let them get away with their crimes?

It seems a nonsensical idea.

[Catchawave]

100. Let's take back Congress first.....

Then we'll mosh the details :hi:

Impeaching the Chimp is lower on my list right now than, say, saving our country. Trust me :D

[calimary]

108. True, especially if he keeps falling back on his "signing statements."

It won't matter what we do with that majority if we don't use it to GET RID OF HIM. You think he'll stop just because we ask him to? No. We're gonna have to MAKE him stop.

[Disturbed]

82. Start with

Investigate the crimes, hold the hearings, subpeona the witnesses then figure out the next steps. Cheney, Bush, Hasert and the rest must be exposed.

[Catchawave]

101. I understand and agree, but......

"if" we don't take back the Congress this fall, where does that put us for the next two years :shrug:

My fear, if we lose, that is not be the majority, we'll be sending a Man-Date to BushCo....and we'd be screwed :cry:

[ABaker]

76. You're wrong.

Some things need to tried even if there's little chance of success. Impeachment is one of them.

[ClassWarrior]

77. Just TALKING about it helps us. Undermines Dubya** even further.

Visualize IMPEACHMENT.

Then do something to make it happen.

And NGU.

[calimary]

111. That's absolutely true. Especially when WE aren't the only ones

talking about it anymore.

It's NO LONGER a taboo subject.

It's NO LONGER never-to-be-spoken.

It's NO LONGER a forbidden fruit.

It's NO LONGER UNTHINKABLE.

It IS an option. More realistic than EVER. And gaining momentum by the day!

NGU!!!

[Vickers]

81. Not exactly raking in the Greatest Page nominations with this one, huh?

Personally, I think he should be impeached, then removed from office, then taken in shackles to the International Court of Justice in The Hague, tried for war crimes, and given the most severe punishment allowed.

But that's just me. :eyes:

[Zhade]

91. Yeah, it's right up there with her defense of the bankruptcy bill...

...and her boy Joe "fuck the poor and those with medical catastrophes" Biden.

And it's most assuredly NOT just you, it's the vast majority of the ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET!

(Sorry, I get heated when people suggest we let criminals get away with murder without even trying to remove them from the positions of power in which they commit their crimes.)

[calimary]

109. Hey, I nominated it.

It's a worthwhile dialogue here. And MANY good arguments - far beyond just mine.

[Debs]

87. I disagree because

Even if we cant get impeachment done it will still send a message to the next would be Napolean Gump that lying to take us into a war carries consequences. I personally believe we should not only impeach him but arrest him, put him in chains and frogmarch him to the Hague to stand trial for the Ultimate war crime. Starting a war of aggression. IF the Nuremeberg laws were applied he would be hung.

[onenote]

89. what message would that be?

A failed attempt to impeach will simply allow the chimpy and his gang to claim vindication and, if anything, that will embolden rather than deter the next fool. Recapturing control of the government, first by recapturing Congress in 2006 and then by solidifying that hold and taking the WH in 2008 will send a far greater message than a failed impeachment.

[Zhade]

92. You seem to be forgetting they will claim whatever helps them.

They already lie and cheat NOW, why are we letting that stand in the way of attempting to remove criminals from power?

These people don't play by the rules. They break the law repeatedly and consistently. Where do you get the idea that we will be able to recapture anything with them in office?

[onenote]

95. you really don't make any sense

What "justice" is achieved by a failed effort to impeach?

And I get the idea that we will be able to recapture control of the government from the fact that the American public is tired of repub mismanagement of the country -- of its foreign policy, of its economy, of the environment. They're tired of anti-science neanderthals catering to a small minority of the public that thinks that the country should be a theocracy.

[Hippo_Tron]

97. It's arguably the right thing to do, but it's simply not practical

Prosecutors only go to trial if they think that they can get a conviction. No matter how good our evidence is, it is highly unlikely that the jury that the House managers would have to go before (The US Senate) would vote for conviction.

[AtomicKitten]

103. not right out of the box

but investigations vis-a-vis retroactive oversight will bring to light much that BushCo has tried desperately to keep under wraps. I have no doubt impeachment proceedings will be the natural next step. With the evidence finally in the sunlight, I doubt even the lockstep Republicans could rationalize the crimes of this administration. They surely will try, but Americans are not quite that stupid.

[Hippo_Tron]

120. I certainly hope you're right

I would love to get to the truth about the crimes committed by this administration.

[AtomicKitten]

121. as much as we know now,

that which has been hinted at, and that which we have no clue about yet could be beyond anything we have ever had to wrap our brain around collectively as a country.

We could have handled the truth about the JKF assassination; this has the potential to be a real mind-blower.

And this inquiring mind wants to know.

[Karenca]

106. I WILL PERSONALLY GIVE B*SH A BLOWJOB

If it will get him impeached.

Now, after having said that,
Excuse me, I've got to :puke:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

110. You're right.

I don't like it.

[JerseygirlCT]

114. As much as I'd like to see it, I have to agree

If we regain control (please, please, please!) we ought to show an example to the country by diving right in and attempting to get something done.

By addressing important issues front-on and loudly.

The future of the country depends on it.

[IndianaGreen]

116. Impeachment: Saving the Republic is NOT a waste of time!

The House can hold hearings to determine if an impeachable offense or offenses have been committed by George Bush and/or Dick Cheney. The hearings will be televised. As the American people see the vast evidence of law breaking and deception by Bush/Cheney, their opinion will change and many will see impeachment not just as a possibility, but as a necessity.

When the House, under Chairman Peter Rodino, and the Senate, under Chairman Sam Ervin, held hearings on Nixon's law breaking, opinion polls showed that most Americans did not feel that impeachment was necessary, even when they didn't like Nixon. After the evidence began to come out that Nixon had broken the law and engaged in criminal activity, public opinion began to move in the direction of impeachment. This culminated in Rep. Rodino voting in favor of Articles of Impeachment for Nixon's cover-up of the Watergate break-in and other abuses of power.

We must move public opinion in the direction of impeachment, and the only way to do that is by presenting evidence that will convince a majority of Americans that Bush and Cheney must be impeached if we are to uphold the Constitution and save the Republic.

Were she alive today, Barbara Jordan would not hesitate to stand for the Constitution against a President that has placed himself above the law.

[ima_sinnic]

117. impeachment "crap"? hmmm. I wonder why you doth protest so much.

yeah, I always have "higher priorities" than bringing mass murdering traitors to justice. :eyes:

[Samantha]

118. Yes, impeachment takes too long - we should demand his resignation

Nixon for all of his faults when presented with evidence by the Republicans that impeachment WOULD happen with a likely conviction, did -- for once -- the right thing. He saved some of his dignity and everyone a lot of time by resigning.

Cheney needs to go as well.

And those serious problems you speak of need to be addressed by someone with at least SOME tools in their own tool bag.

And when the secretary of state speaks to the world describing the current war between Israel and Pakistan as re-erupting because THERE IS AN ABSENCE OF PEACE, she too must go.

Does the whole cabal think we are all morons -- make that "morans" -- because we are cut from the same cloth as they?

I am not in the mood to fight tonight because I am so upset at the scenes I have just witnessed of the state of distress in Lebanon. This administration refuses to join in a cease fire chorused by the rest of the world yet the Ambassador from the United States proudly delivered 40 boxes of medicine. Mindboggling. We tacitly approve bombing the hell out of these civilians, including the children, but we apologize by contributing 40 boxes of medicine. Reminds me of 30 pieces of silver.

Impeachment. No, that takes too long and too many more innocents people will die in our -- the Americans' -- names. We need to push the eject button on this coterie of neoconservatives and that can only happen with a demand for resignations. And if the Republicans join us, IT CAN HAPPEN.

[pitohui]

122. the quest for justice a waste of time?

what a sad comment on america and on humanity

[LynneSin]

125. Maybe I would prefer the quest of ending a war first

:shrug:

I mean, we can't do everything at once. If you're happy with the status quo going on in this country then yes - please let's push forward with the impeachment. Me? I prefer making the changes first because there are too many people dying over in Iraq and that needs to stop first

[IChing]

129. Your cow bells are no longer listen to or needed...the joke is over

with the death and the breath
that it gives that song to be a joke to you.


SMELL DEATH

I HAVE
HAVE YOU?

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

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[LynneSin]

126. Sure - let's just forget about making real changes

let's let the war continue on
let's hope that gas gets up to $4 an hour

We need to make changes first we need to end this war first. Impeachment is not a top priority or perhaps you enjoy the war

:shrug:

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

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[Irreverend IX]

130. The most important thing to consider when discussing impeachment...

Is the impact it would have on the voting public. Right now the Republicans are slithering away from Bush as a snake sheds its skin. They're getting ready for a brave new conservative world without Dubya's cloud hanging over it but with all the corruption and graft that their contributors know and love. If we spend our efforts attacking the limping lame duck, they'll leave him to us and take their rhetoric in a new direction that will be difficult to counter as we prepare to crucify Bush. Instead, we have to forget about Bush, who will soon be leaving office, and paint a picture of a better future that we can create. The Repub party is now struggling to come to terms with the failure of their neoconservative experiment and explain themselves to Americans, and if we start a massive negative attack on Bush, they'll leave us in the dust and tell the voters they have new ideas for the country. Bush is their problem child; let them spin his failures with him while we show America why we should lead again.