DU: Example of why Repubs win..

[BrewAz]

I am relatively new to the DU...maybe 3-4 weeks or so. When I started reading the posts, I saw lots of opinions...lots of banter...but the more I see now, I believe that the DU is a good example of why the Repubs win.

DU banter has become all out verbal wars...diagreement...inane ideas...a place for folks to bash and rant...mostly on each other. Free speech at its best...YEA! BUT....no real message or agreement...no thread of consistency on message or thinking. People are all over the place. Not that it's a bad thing....BUT,

Have you noticed that you see little of this on the neo-con/Repub side?

For them, the message is clear the talking points are understood and everyone not only listens but parrots the words. Everyone is on the same page. The more they say the same thing...the more support it garners. The more support it garners the more people start to say it. No bickering, no bashing (except on those liberals)everyone has the same ideas and support breeds support.

The strategy started in 1994ish...and continues to play well to the base...as the Dems/liberals/progressives continue to disagree on war, Lieberman, the Clintons, Carter, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Lebanon, deficit spending, economy....pick your topic.

Is it a lack of Dem leadership? A lack of vision? Or is it just a bunch of folks babbling because we have nothing else to do. Cheap therapy I guess.

The Repub talking points seem to be losing steam and support...if there has been a time to make a difference,it is now. A Progressive theme and strategy is needed...not diffuse arguments.

Where will we get the leadership? Who is the standard bearer? Who can we turn too?

Good luck to us!

BrewAz

[niyad]

1. welcome to DU--do you think the answer is for all of the dems to walk,

talk, and think in lockstep? you don't think we should be able to talk things out, disagree, work our way through issues?

[BrewAz]

3. The repubs made that work...

and look where we are. So no...but leadership, strategies and messages that cause people to agree and back the party win elections. Thinking things out and working though issues can cause people to vote for the Green Party...or an Independent Lieberman...or not vote. All of which splits the party vote...
BrewAz

[eyesroll]

2. No, DU is an example of an Internet message board.

Take a look back at Usenet archives -- people called each other vicious names because they thought Captain Kirk was better than Captain Picard.

On any big message board that permits arguing and doesn't delete dissent, there will be nastiness.

[bemildred]

4. Democrats win too. How do you account for that? nt

[kentuck]

5. For example, where should we all stand on the Israeli/Lebanon war?

Republicans don't usually bother with issues they cannot unite upon. That is why Democrats have supported minority rights and the Civil Rights legislation. It was not unanimous. If you want unanimity, I think the other Party may be what you are looking for?

[RufusEarl]

6. Hell if we all agreed all the time,

I wouldn't be a member of the Democratic party, or a member of DU. We do not march in lock step, we discuss and cuss and debate. We work things out, we work through matter's of importance.

We all agree to disagree, and at the end of the day we donate are time money and energy to the democratic party. Welcome to DU, if you enjoy a good debate you'll enjoy DU!

[calico1]

7. Democrats tend to be more independent

thinkers. I don't want to "parrot" anybody! If you listen to the average Republican express their opinion on anything, they are usually just doing that.....parroting Hannity, Limbaugh, etc. No, thanks. I know a lot of us disagree from time to time, but marching lockstep is not the right thing to do.

[niyad]

8. or, as will rogers once said, "I belong to no organized political party,

I'm a democrat."

[BrewAz]

10. So what do Dems stand for?

It is one thing to say Dems are independent thinkers...not affiliated with an organized party...don't want to parrot.

BUT, It is organization and strategy that wins elections these days....What do DEMS stand for?

BrewAz

[kentuck]

11. Democrats stand for the Constitution...

Tell me what the Repubs stand for....maybe that will be easier?

[BrewAz]

14. The Constitution is not sufficient....

today.

See post #12 in this thread: "he GOP wins because...". The rules are a bit different these days... and taking time to discuss and just saying the constitution is our basis for action just is not enough.

The change required today takes strong leadership with vision and a strategy....and most of a cohesive party behind them.

BrewAz

[madmusic]

17. You're right, despite the praise of free speech and free thought.

Democrats do not have a platform that clearly separates them from the Conservatives. If not for Iraq, the Republicans would be doing just fine in the polls. Democrats do not lay out clear and convincing reasons to vote for them rather than for Republicans.

We are winning in the polls only because Republicans are giving voters no choice. We are winning by default, like a boxer who wins because his opponent takes a fall.

There are some things, like education, health care, the deficit and gas prices that voters think the Democrats could better handle, but candidates don't take advantage of this advantage enough by making themselves distinct from Republicans on those issues.

Many democrats agree with the Republicans on issues like abortion, crime and gay marriage. Republicans take serious advantage of those issues and claim Democrats are guilty of "me-too-ism." Democrats need to frame those issues in more liberal terms that voters can understand.

[BrewAz]

19. I don't want to be right...

that is not the issue. I would like to see some unity of purpose from the Dems.

BrewAz

[madmusic]

22. Well, ok, to late to edit my post though.

:toast:

[Greyhound]

41. They stand for winning elections to keep the status quo.

The biggest objections "inside the beltway Democrats" have to shrub is that he's taken things "too far" and threatens to upset the delicate balance of power and distraction, they are afraid he will wake the sheep up with one of his bone-head moves.

Good Democrats show up every two years to vote and then they are left to squabble among themselves until the next cycle, and it's worked out very well for them.

[rock]

9. I'm certainly NOT gonna argue that the Republicans

have independent thought. Welcome.

[alvarezadams]

12. The GOP wins because...

...BESIDES campaign financing the rw machine receives no less than $1 billion per year, every year, election or no election, to help indoctrinate its masses.

It wins because the conservative mentallity, as outlined by Jost, is perhaps the easiest mentality to manipulate: www.wam.umd.edu/~hannahk/bulletin.pdf

Simple answers for those that desire closure? Check.
Authoritarianism? Check.
Dogmatism and intolerance of ambiguity? Check.
Terror management? Check.
Ideological rationalization? Check.

Their annual billion is well-spent on hiring experts that exploit these shortcomings. "Uncertainty" is certainly absent from conservative rhetoric - the experts know why. Wearing the flag helps, brandishing the cross helps even more. It's Goebbels in his own element, although the DLC is even more Gobbelesque in its manipulation.

They also win because, as you note, the Dems are divided. Many MANY progressives have tuned out of the system entirely after seeing how the DNC panders to the right. Conservative Dems are, in many cases, those who inherited a Dem bias from their parents and are still unwilling to embrace the party that better represents them, just as the Dixiecrats remained within the party for decades after FDR and only changed when the racial border was breached.

But ultimately the GOP wins because in a cleptocracy the group that represents Big Business best will prevail, even if it takes $1 billion per year, every year, not counting campaign contributions... to turn the world's first liberal democracy into a Tory stronghold.

IPSO DIXIT

[wryter2000]

28. The Republicans win because they lie

Kerry is a flip-flopper
Kerry faked his war record
Al Gore claims he invented the internet
Democrats are going to raise YOUR taxes
Democrats want to give Osama Bin Laden therapy

...and one of the biggest ones...Democrats have no message

If we wanted to lie, we could be just like Republicans

[ClassWarrior]

30. The Republicons don't win. They cheat.

But point taken, wryter... :hi:

NGU.

[wryter2000]

32. You're right

Lying is only part of their cheating. :hi:

[leesa]

13. This is what progressives are. We are not followers and robots. If

that's what you are hankering for, then you are probably a conservative. It's what makes progressives move forward.

[welshTerrier2]

15. a bunch of points

first, welcome to DU !!!

the idea that the Democratic Party and the online political community would be a more effective political force if we could agree on policy and values and a strategy is absolutely true ... many here ascribe to this belief ...

the question remains, however, how do we get there from here??

i would not be quite as quick as you were to conclude that DU is "just a bunch of folks babbling" ... one need not look much beyond the Lamont campaign or recent DLC meetings where the topic of discussion dealt with how to address the POWER of the online community ...

so i have two messages to respond to your post ... one, i agree that we would be more effective if we could be more unified but two, even in disunity, DU and other progressive online communities are a very potent political force ... and remember, the internet and DU are still very much in their infancies ... in time, our power will grow even greater than it is today ...

i hope you remain on DU for a long time and help us achieve the unity and message consistency you've called for ...

[Nederland]

16. Not true

Have you noticed that you see little of this on the neo-con/Repub side?

DU is just like right wing boards in many respects. There is a great deal of division over on FreeRepublic if you can stand to browse over there for a few hours...

[BrewAz]

18. I have been to a number of their sites..

and that is the reason I say that now is the time because there are "fractures" in the Repub talking points.

BUT, I do have to say that "discussing" whether to bomb Iran or Syria first...or arguing that the fundamental Islamists hate freedom or just us...or discussing the importance and sanctity of life...or that Rush really doesn't need the viagra and its the media and those liberals out to get him...is not the same as DU.

BrewAz

[ClassWarrior]

29. Oh, I'll bet you have!

:rofl:

NGU.

[kentuck]

20. We do not live in a black or white world.

There are many gray areas...It's easy to support taxcuts. It's easy to be "pro-life". It's easy to say we'll turn their sand to glass. It's easy to blame everything on the "liberal media". Unfortunately, as a country, we have many problems that cannot be resolved with a simple black or white response. Republicans get tied up in knots if they have to make a tough decision, such as immigration. Send them all back or keep them here for cheap labor? What a dilemma!

[zbdent]

21. Before you heard the talking point "Dems don't have ideas", how many

times have you heard the Repukes describe anything that the Dems put forth as Socialist, Communist, or raising taxes?

ALL THE TIME. The "Dems don't have ideas" soundbite is negated by Repukes shooting Dem ideas down or killing them in conference.

[Bake]

23. It's called "the marketplace of ideas."

It's what the Founding Fathers believed in. It has served us well for, well, *almost* 200 years. I think we all agree that Democrats (which I would certainly hope would be progressive, even - gasp - liberal) need strong, visionary leadership. But we don't need to be TOLD what to think (a.k.a., a daily talking points memo). Hell, ideas are tested here, attacked, defended, and thoroughly DISCUSSED.

The Puke talking points seldom get tested until it's "go time." Look at the neocon agenda, for starters. Look where that's gotten us.

Like the man said, I don't belong to an organized political party. I'm a Democrat.

Bake

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. It's easier to generate a homogenous message...

when one's leadership panders to their own base, not the other guys base.

We don't have a clear message because we don't have a clear messenger.

[BrewAz]

25. No clear messenger....

all too true. Just look at the thread: "Of the Dems you think would make a fine Pres, who is the most unelectable?"....a bunch of names and the premise is that they are unelectable.

BrewAz

[lumberjack_jeff]

26. Diagnosis: low self-esteem

you hit it right on the nose. I wonder if Republicans ask one another "which one of us is too stupid, psychopathic and generally just too freakin' crazy to be electable?"

[ClassWarrior]

27. You've never been to Freek Republic.

On second thought, maybe you have.

:rofl:

NGU.

[skeeters2525]

31. We Do Not Understand

We need to control the House and Senate. And if that means sucking up to moderates and Religious folks. Big Fricken Deal. Does every Dem have to believe the same on every issue. Nazi Germany tried, didn't work.

I was recruiting people to call for a candidate. Some numbskull wrote, I hate phone calls it is annoying. Well, then don't do it. But why spoil it for someone that may want to get involved.

It can work, most people I called were undecided, and were not happy with the direction of the Country. We talked about what issues they wanted addressed. Very friendly all the way. It is a close race for the House and would be a major upset.

So why do Dems have to step on the buzz. If you don't like the Dem Party. Simple, leave. If you want to fight, then dammit, start fighting. We can do nothing till we get the House or Senate.

People still rip Kerry, even though he is fighting Bush tooth and nail. They need to get over the past race. Kerry moved on, sorry they can't.

BTW. To the Liberal Nazi's (sorry, just to make a point) Clinton was a moderate. Would you rather have him, or Bush. Your call.


I think there are too many here that would like a 100 to 1 Republican advantage just as long as Lamont wins. They only want to say, nah, nah, we were right. I love Lamont, and I love the Progressives. But work towards it and quit whining. Have you ever seen a worse time.

[Skittles]

33. WE ARE NOT F***ING GOOSE-STEPPERS LIKE REPUKES

and we HAVE been winning elections; do some research into VOTE FRAUD

[GrantDem]

34. Therein is the difference --->>>

Dems believe in debate (since no one has ALL the answers). Repukes meet debate with attack.

Dems also believe that compromise is good and even necessary. To repukes compromise is synonymous with weakness.

[Nay]

35. That's why they're BAD, and we're GOOD. To put it simply.

[BrewAz]

36. Seems to make my point...

all the comments that is.

I was gone for a couple of hours and I see that I have basically been accused of being a "right wing" wacko by 3-4 folks; told twice I should go find another political party (I assume republican) if I don't like it here and have caused a lot of vulgar langauge...makes me think I am reading something from the right wingers.

I do see a few solid comments and inputs...but my issue/s still stand.

This is not whining...view this as concern for the direction our country has turned. There are still 30-35% of Americans who support this pantie-waste-would-be-savior but actually a mentally challenged frat-baby who is in office....and the idealogical mush developed in the 1990's that currently is standing as foreign and domestic policy.

We are all living the results of having the neo-con babble set policy with no plan.

Are you aware that one of the latest polls shows that a full 50% of Americans believe that we found WMD in Iraq? That number has gone up by 14% in the last few months. How can this be? Is the cabal that well connected?

Ranting at each other may be fun...how helpful is it?

Where are we (in the Democratic Party) going to find some synergy and leadership?

BrewAz

[ClassWarrior]

37. Hmm. You extol RW wedge talking point numero uno.

You are, by your own admission, brand new here. And your profile's disabled. We just came to our own conclusions.

:shrug:

NGU.

[BrewAz]

38. I didn't know I had a profile..

that could be "abled or disabled".

Do you wonder why the wingers talk about the Dem disconnect?

BrewAz

[snowbear]

39. So... ah...

How long ago did these delusions begin?

[ClassWarrior]

40. So tell me, if you don't know what the Dem message is, why are you a Dem?

NGU.

[BrewAz]

42. I think you miss

the point.

Me having my ideas and ideals and you having yours ...all good.

Which progressive leader or leaders consistently voices and acts on the ideas and ideals that the party has? Which leader or leaders doesn't back down when the "swift-boating" starts? WHo strikes back when warranted? Which one stands firm on the principles that founded the country? Which one won't back down when attacked...and leads the charge to rectify the insanity of the current congress?

Sure we have good Dems who continue to fight...you have Feingold right there in your own backyard...he has been out front on many of the issues. How many Dems would actually support him in 2008...or is he one of the unelectables? Kerry? Hillary? Al Gore the movie star?

Is it too early to rally around a Dem leader?

BrewAz

[ClassWarrior]

43. Look below for the one I'm rallying around.

It's the midterm. It's all local this time around. Talk to me after November.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

44. By the way, the fact that this has shifted from a message discussion...

...to a candidate one makes me doubly suspicious of the motivation fo this thread. But that being said, I'm sure all of the "possibles" for 2008 hold our values of opportunity and justice for all, responsiblity and compassion for one another.

NGU.