Is Israel carrying out an American plan in Lebanon?

[Writer]

To rid the nation of Hezbollah so that a stronger American-friendly government rises? I say this because of the DAY-LONG bombing of the UN embassy and the fact that Condi Rice appears to be stalling on a peace agreement in Rome.

I think Hezbollah are not viewed as terrorists as much as they are viewed as "in the way" of American initiatives in the Middle East. What do you think?

[The Magistrate]

1. No, Sir, It Is Not

Israel has plenty of its own reasons to wish the neutralization of Hezbollah.

Your referhnece to day long bombing of a "UN embassy" is puzzling. Perhaps you are refering to the bombing of a UNIFIL obervation station? That was not a day-long operation. There was a long engagement with Hezbollah fighters in the vicinity of the post, in the course of which it was struck.

[Ms. Clio]

3. The UN says Hizbollah was not in the vicinity at the time of the strike

[Writer]

6. So why are we offering such unflinching support of this level of...

aggressive activity by Israel? It seems counter-productive to our efforts in the rest of the Middle East. We now appear whole-heartedly on the side of Israel. We have lost our image of neutrality.

My comment on the UN base (excuse my mistype) bombed 21 TIMES by Israel derives from this article from The Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1830397,00.html Annan said that the shelling of the base started in the morning and continued until 7pm.

[mike_c]

8. it's my understanding that the UNIFIL post was somewhat isolated...

...on a hilltop and that there were no Hezbollah operations in it's vicinity-- that is certainly the U.N.'s position-- and that the building was clearly marked "UN" in large letters on all sides, has been used as an observers post for several years, had been specifically discussed with Israeli forces both before and during the bombardment that ultimately destroyed it, and was subjected to a protracted artillary barrage, about which the U.N. complained while it was in progress, before finally being destroyed by an air strike coordinated with the artillary bombardment. The information I've seen confirmed that the operation took several hours, and it sounds as if it was meant to dislodge the U.N. observers before the post was finally destroyed. That is of course speculation at this point, but in any event the information I've heard-- albeit from media reports-- is that Hezbollah activity in proximity to the U.N. position was unlikely.

[Ms. Clio]

9. It's not just "media reports," It's the UN saying it in its own documents

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/25/un-lebanon.html

[tom_paine]

11. I am not sure I agree with you, Magistrate

Though I will readily confess to complete agreement with this statement, Israel has plenty of its own reasons to wish the neutralization of Hezbollah.

The truth, of course, is that we will never know. The Age of Glasnost in Amerika is over. It died when the Republic died, on 12/12/2000.

However, in the long history of Empires, and to consider post-Bush Amerika a Free Nation as the Old Republic of America was, is a mistake, proxy wars are terribly common.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/proxy+war

Given: there is no "aboveground" reason that suggests Imperial Amerika started this war, but it certainly does advance the interests of it's Rulers (which since 12/12/2000 is nearly diametrically oppsed to the interest of it's Subjects) for the midterm "elections" which only have to be made close enough to steal in today's Amerika to get the "desired result" for the Imperial Family.

But since when has the Imperial Family done ANYTHING aboveground, that is, in the open?

I see a lot of American flags these days. More than at any time in the past two years. Mission Accomplished.

Do I think this is a sensible position, that it may well be a war waged for political timing that was simply awaiting a provocation within the pre-designated time-frame?

Under this regime, unquestionably one of the most evil, if not the most brutally violent to it's own citizens yet (wait for it), currently on the Earth, it is absolutely possible if not probable.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/04/24/1346217

(the above link shows a little rumble of thunder on the horizon which is black with the gathering stormclouds of Tyranny, a tiny glimpse of the future for all of us)

Also, while this proxy war helps Bushevik Polling to give them camoflauge to steal the 2006 "elections" (hell, they might choose to REALLY rub our noses in it and give themselves some more seats), I still believe an October Surprise of some kind is a 100% given, like th Bin Laden-Bush Campaign Video which aired a day or two before the "election" of 2004.

I think it is very possible that the Israelis have made a Faustian deal (literally) with the devil.

Possible, but not 100% certain. What say you, sir?

[Fire Walk With Me]

13. Mideast instability provides an opportunity to "police" the area.

As China "helps" Tibet. Thank you for the help, I imagine that it's okay to consider the favor lent and the job well finished, nice to see you, bye, thanks.

The energy monopoly needs that Iranian oil. Watch to see who profits from the problem, always. Would the US use Israel as the USSR used Cuba? Nah.

And hey, aren't the Bin Laden family in construction, just like Halliburton? Big friends of BushCo, I wonder if they are making any money on this. And if the Saudi rich are offended by the Iraq invasion, and subsequent actions, or if they're in bed with all of this (oil monopoly).

[The Magistrate]

14. In My View, Sir

Simply because someone benefits from something is insufficient grounds to be sure they caused it. "Cui bono?" is a beginning, not the end, of inquiry into causation.

From the point of view of the Israeli government, this is a matter that has been building for a half-dozen years. The timing of Hezbollah's action, on the heels of great disorder in Gaza, must suggest to the Israeli leadership a degree of co-ordination between the previously un-affiliated groups, and even failing that, at the very least an opportunism on the part of Hezbollah that bodes poorly for the future. Add to this the recent election of a government of a completely new Party, and the fact that its leader is not a man with military credentials, and you have a situation where the counsel likely to prevail is a show of force and a martial achievement on a large scale, to demonstrate the toughness and solidity of the new political force and leadership.

[tom_paine]

15. Very interesting counterpoint

You are correct, I was just reading a link to a 2002 story about Hizbollah guerillas firing rockets and beating the crap out of some UN observers.

You are also correct in saying Simply because someone benefits from something is insufficient grounds to be sure they caused it. "Cui bono?" is a beginning, not the end, of inquiry into causation.

I don't believe I said that it 100% occured, only that it was possible and made perhaps 1-in-3 probable by the Faustian nature of the relationship between the Bushies/neocons (who at their heart, at least the base does, pretty much hates the Jews...as I like to say, the KKK became the CCC andjoined the Republican Party) and the Israeli Leadership.

Remember John DeIluio, way back when who said, "EVERYTHING is run by the political wing. It's the Mayberry Machiavellis."

Viz and to wit, take heed sir.

I postulate a strong possibility that said political wing also coordinates the advice to foriegn governents. In such a hypothetical scenario, the Israelis wouldn't be told that they were assisting with midterm elections.

No, what they were told (this is absolute speculation, of course) would be something like this: No, not now. Bad timing. Be patient. Another attack? Calm now. Must wait for the region to cool off from the Iraq invasion. Not yet. Wait. OK, plan ready? On the count of July, ready...set...go?

American flags springing up in my neighborhood and I suspect in neighborhoods around the nation.

This bump will last until late October, when as it peters out, some form of October Surprise will spring to give the the last minute bump to make it close enough to steal. Just like the Bush-Bin Laden campaign Video (don't forget the "American" al-Qaeda video that released at the same time) did on Oct. 30th 2004. Boo, mothereffers!

Also speculation, but based on some VERY strong evidence, accoridng to Conyers and RFK Jr (the vote-tampering, not the timing of the videos).

Defintely a 1-in-3 possibility. Maybe even a 50-50. These Bushevks are really bad people. REALLY bad. Sometimes I wonder the camps aren't open already, such has the force and virulence to which so much of America has been Hannitized, if you catch my drift.

[alvarezadams]

2. Regardless

if this is a proxy-campaign or not, it is patently clear that the immense majority of Muslims don't believe that Israel can piss without the US' permission.

[SteppingRazor]

4. I do think that America is dragging it's feet because...

they'd rather Israel do as much damage to Hezbollah as possible. As for as our gov't is concerned, Israel is an ally, and Hezbollah is an enemy. It's that simple. But I don't think it follows that Israel is carrying out an American plan. It's just a case of realpolitik.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. of course. Anyone saying no has their eyes closed

how long would this last if we said, "STOP, or we cut off all aid AND all arms to you."

about long enough to get the order to the grunts and confirmed.

[Vinnie From Indy]

7. It has become very difficult to determine if where Israeli policies begin

and US policies end. It appears to me that BushCO and Israel are working together in complete agreement on Middle East policy.

[fuzzyball]

17. Are'nt you giving too much credit to Bushco to be such brilliant

machivellian operators?

[Sparkly]

10. I think it's Israel's plan. BUT...

The US is giving them wide berth to weaken Hezbollah; I just think it's not happening as fast or easily as they predicted.

Having said that, I've had a theory since Cheney made that statement in January of last year about the possibility of Israel attacking Iran, which is simply that BushCo would like for Israel to attack Iran. This could come to that, who knows. (Just a theory, anyway.)

[bemildred]

12. No.

The US is sort of kibitzing and providing support, but it is not a US plan, and in some respects its causing the US trouble. I expect the US military is watching with great interest. There are of course elements in the US that want to use it as a pretext to start a wider war, but that is not US policy.

[Baselinereality]

16. Does Anyone Remember A Few Months Back...

When the Mexican legislature passed some sort of law, in an attempt to focus on large drug dealers, where they were going to make possession of small quantities of drugs a misdemeanor? And within 24 hours, Washington had made a call to Vincente Fox and by the next day he quickly vetoed the law because he was told that it would hamper the United States' drug effort?

I only bring that story up in an attempt to illustrate the efficacy and power of the United States on its allies. My point being, of course, that IF the Israeli invasion of Lebanon was truly causing the Bush Administration "problems," the campaign would end with one phone call.

I don't think there is nearly enough evidence out in the realm of public discourse to either prove or disprove that the Israeli disproportionate response to both Hamas and Hezbollah is NOT, in fact, U.S. policy.

In fact, common sense suggests to me that, since the vaunted United States military is currently bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq, the Bush Administration would quite logically utilize the Israeli Army in this, the next phase in the War on Terror, as a surrogate battalion or two. (Wait, which is bigger, a brigade or a battalion? I always get them confused. I mean the bigger of the two.)

In fact, utilizing the Israeli Army as essentially an extension of the U.S. Army, it not only frees up our military personnel but leaves the hawkish Bush Administration in a win-win-win situation. 1)If it gets really ugly, out of control and becomes a bloody, public political nightmare, Condi can swoop in and call for a ceasefire...WIN! 2)If Israel successfully wipes out Hamas and Hezbollah...WIN! 3)If Syria and/or Iran get their blood up and try to enter the war on the side of Hezbollah then we can launch air strikes, missile attacks, a full frontal attack on them in the name of the LAWD!...WIN!

I mean, really, if I were a Bush Hawk determined to "prevail" in our efforts to form a "new Middle East," I really can't see the downside.

Which is why I hit my knees every day and thank the Lord that I'm not a Bush Hawk.

But I digress.

[bemildred]

18. Oh, we could stop them, any time.

There are certainly elements in the US government that find this whole thing congenial.
That does not make it "our" plan. It is more like something we allowed or supported.
You are right that proof is not available.
The question is really too simplistic.