How Many Of You Are REAL Clark Fans?

[Dinger]

NOT:
-People who used to support him, but can't now.
-People who lie and say they are, and then use their lie to attack & smear him

But:
-You support him for all he has done for this country and the world
-You support him as a matter of free choice, with no "help" from anyone else

[etherealtruth]

1. He's not my first choice ...

...but, he is certainly more than acceptable.

[tridim]

2. I like Clark, but I don't think he would make a good President

I'd certainly support him in a Democratic cabinet position.

[Dinger]

4. Thank You For Some Classy Replies (# 1 & 2 So Far)

I am totally cool with that:)

[snowbear]

6. I like the good General and think that he'd make a damn fine president!

But hey.. that's just me...

[Dinger]

7. Oh No, It's Not Just You : )

:) :patriot:

[calimary]

145. Not just you. Me too.

Imagine Clark/Feingold, or maybe Clark/Obama, or - HEY: Clark/Hagel? Steal one of the moderates away from the bad guys and talk BIGTIME about how you REALLY are a uniter, not a divider! Besides, Hagel brings the voting machines with him, and it'd be nice to have someone like that benefiting our side for a change.

[The Deacon]

3. He's

More of a V.P. than President. Upright, sure, knowledgeable - but inclined to stick his foot in his mouth & irritate those who don't agree with him. (But don't get me wrong - I still think he'd be a better President than all of the last three Republicans.)

[Dinger]

5. # 4 Classy Too - Thanks : ) (nt)

[MethuenProgressive]

8. Kerry/Clark would've been better than Kerry/Whatshisname was

Who would have been better than Wes Clark to combat (literally, combat) the Swift Boat Liars? We sent a boy to do a man's job.

[Dinger]

10. # 8 Classy Too - Thanks : )

BTW, my criteria for "classy" is someone who maybe doesn't see Clark as their # 1 Presidential choice, but respects him & could support him in some way.

BTW, there ARE other candidates I support as well.

[snowbear]

14. What? My response wasn't classy enough?

Is that better? ..................... (( ))

[Dinger]

17. Oh, Hell Yes It Was!

I mainly did that for people who don't necessarily support Clark, but showed some class in their response anyway. You, as always, showed class in your response :)

[wiley]

46. Wes Clark is an international asset

He would make a better President than the last ten Republican Presidents. At this point, he's one of the few Democrats that I would invest time, money, energy and hope in after the 06 elections are over. If you want a leader who knows what it means to lead from experience, and who knows the power of peace by seeing first hand the desperation and cruelty of war, it's Wes Clark.

[politicasista]

157. That would have been a nice ticket n/t

[Mz Pip]

9. As a member of the Draft Clark

movement I can say that I have always liked Clark. Don't know if he will run again, though.

Right now he is focusing on 06 and throwing his support behind Dem Congressional candidates.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Dinger]

11. Imagine, Who'd Want To Support Someone Like That? (Sarcasm)

You know, someone who is focused on '06 and throwing his support behind Democratic Congressional candidates? Whopee do:sarcasm:

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

12. Me.

I supported him in '04, met him twice, love the guy, would happily campaign for him if he runs again. If he doesn't run, I hope whatever Dem runs (and wins!) picks him for a Cabinet position. He's about the smartest guy we've got.

[Benhurst]

13. He's my first choice unless Gore runs. Gore/Clark : Dream Ticket. NT

[Dinger]

15. Hell, You're All Classy!

Thanks, this is refreshing and it is appreciated:)

[graywarrior]

16. Yeah, Gore/Clark. That's the ticket.

I think I like Clark because he would appeal to left & right.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

57. That would be my choice.

:)

[lisainmilo]

166. DREAM TICKET??

Absolutely.......I believe that is the WINNING TICKET for the Democrats! I wish they would consider running! Gore/Clark

:dem:

[longship]

18. Not my first choice, but he is definitely a quality choice.

There's just two problems with him:

1. Al Gore, my first choice, may be talked into jumping in.

2. Wes Clark is a political neophyte. He'd have a difficult job ahead of him.


But I'd *love* to see Clark in there battling. Go Wes, Go!
Win or lose, he'd be a huge benefit to the race.

[Dinger]

19. Yet Another Classy Reply Thanks: )

I am happy to see that this thread seems to be maintaining a positive tone:)

[longship]

24. Clark has incredible qualities.

I can't think of any negatives other than him being a neophyte. And that might even be an asset in 2008.

[jonnyblitz]

20. I am his biggest supporter here at DU!!

:sarcasm: :rofl:

you need a HELL FUCKING NO option on that poll!!!

<snip>
General Wesley Clark on Defensive on School of the Americas (SOA/WHISC), Once Under His Command

Clark “Proud” of SOA/WHISC, Downplays Atrocities

From June 1996 to July 1997, General Clark served as Commander of the US Southern Command, where he was responsible for US military activities concerning Latin America, including the School of the Americas (SOA), now known as the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHISC). On Sept. 20, 1996, Pentagon officials admitted that SOA manuals used from 1982 to 1991 advocated the use of torture, extortion, and extrajudical executions against dissidents in Latin America. The New York Times wrote "an institution so clearly out of tune with American values should be shut down without further delay."

<snip>

At almost every campaign stop, Gen. Clark is facing critical questions concerning his connection to the SOA and his continued unpopular support of the school. Asked about his continued support of the SOA during an event in Manchester, NH, on Dec. 19, 2003, Clark responded, " I’m not going to have been in charge of a school that I can’t be proud of." In reaction to a question asked in Concord, NH, about the torture manuals Clark stated: "We're teaching police procedures and human rights . . . never taught torture." Despite cosmetic changes, the SOA remains a combat training school that teaches Latin American soldiers commando tactics, psychological operations, sniper and other military skills. Its graduates continue to be linked to massacres and other crimes. A few examples:

· In April 2002, the Venezuelan Army Commander-in-Chief Efrain Vasquez and General Ramirez Poveda -- both graduates of the SOA -- were key players in an attempted coup against the democratically elected Venezuelan government. In total, the school has produced at least eleven military dictators.

· In October 2003 it became public through documents released by the Mexican Secretary of Defense that SOA-trained ex-soldiers are now working as highly trained hired assassins for the Gulf Drug Cartel. SOA graduates comprise over a third of 31 renegade soldiers who were previously part of an elite counter-drug division of the Mexican Army
<snip>

more:
http://www.soaw.org/new/pressrelease.php?id=61

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

22. Well, all the replies so far WERE classy...

But then there's "People who lie and say they are, and then use their lie to attack & smear him."

[Dinger]

31. Yup, That's One For The Definitely NOT Classy Crowd (nt)

[ShortnFiery]

56. This is quite disquieting ...

I'd rather be "a hillbilly" who can think for herself, than someone who goes "Ga Ga" for mere perceptions melding into a FAN Club groupie. :puke:

You may call this CLASS, but I only see shallow lemming type-behavior, seemingly drawn to a shiny object? All of us who do not agree with you 100% are LABELED Classless. That's lovely. :(

Time will show you: Unfortunately many will have to learn that after you scratch the surface, there's very little substance and depth with regard to your good general. :shrug:

[CarolNYC]

81. scratching the surface

I do think that it's a wonderful suggestion for people to look below the surface when it comes to Wes Clark.

I have to laugh every time I see someone suggest that Clark supporters are drawn to him because of the uniform or the stars....For a whole lot, actually probably the majority, of Clark supporters I know (including myself) the fact that he was lifelong military was, instead of being a draw, the one big hurdle we had to jump in order to be able to support this guy. I know it was VERY hard for me to get past that. That's one of the reasons why so many "Clarkies" know so much about Wes, because we, uneasy about supporting a military man, researched the good General thoroughly and we liked what we found, even as it continued to surprise us.

I do believe there is a segment of the Democratic Party that is just as upset as some Republicans that a 4 Star General, Supreme Allied Commander, 34 year military man could possibly be an unabashed liberal and a proud Dem. At one time, I may have been one of them. It really is time for us to get over that....

[CarolNYC]

84. Oh, and no offense meant

to the military members of this board as far as to my former opinions on the military....

One of the things becoming a Clark supporter taught me was that I was not near as liberal and open-minded as I liked to think I was....but I've grown in that direction since then.

[ShortnFiery]

91. It's precisely because I'm a former Military Officer that I've met

MANY "General Clarks" around the Pentagon.

IMO, dig a little deeper and you will find he's nothing special. What makes him so special? Just another self-made man. There's nothing new here ... just a smooth and flashy retired General Officer. Did you know that once they earn that star, they're intensively "coached" in the area of Public Relations?

It's my and other vets opinions that you're being played. Guess you'll have to learn the hard way. :(

[Name removed]

95. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Rinaldo]

94. I refer readers to Post #62 below, regarding Col Hackworth

Unlike our poster who talks about meeting many General Officers, Col Hackworth talks about meeting General Clark.

[ShortnFiery]

97. Another personal attack, "Your Good General" would not approve

:(

WESLEY CLARK
CLARK'S FIRM WAS PREPARING MASSIVE SPYING ON CITIZENS
http://prorev.com/clark.htm

"I voted for Bill Clinton and Al Gore," the retired general said in a Democratic presidential debate Thursday, then stopped there. He also has said previously that he voted for Republicans including Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and the first George Bush. Stories not fully told were part of the story of the night.

Also recall that Our Big Dawg is supporting Joe Lieberman? Hum?



Wake up people, he's all polish and will prove to be NO DELIVERY!

[FrenchieCat]

107. Shit, you've even got the FLYER from the GOP!

Do you also have their memo?

[Tom Rinaldo]

113. Kindly point out the personal attack that you see please. Also...

I have a few things to say about people who, unlike Clark, actually once were Republicans

First about that personal insult you claim. This is what I literally said:

"Unlike our poster who talks about meeting many General Officers, Col Hackworth talks about meeting General Clark."

Was it the overly aggressive use of the word "Unlike"? Do you feel the use of the phrase "our poster" is insulting? You really have me on this one.

Actually I don't believe Clark ever said that he voted for the first George Bush, but what of it now, even I am wrong? In the furthest conceivable stretch Clark last voted for a Republican Presidential candidate 18 years ago, before some people who are now eligible to vote were even born. By that stretch Republicans should have never have accepted Ronald Reagan who voted for JFK and then ran for President as a Republican the first time in 1976 (he came close to getting the nomination that time, remember?) Kos that arch enemy of the Republican media today, is a literal converted Republican, as is Ariana Huffington, not a former Independent like Clark. James Webb who is running for Senate from Virginia now as a Democrat was a Republican who was Navy Chief under Reagan. Eric Massa who is running for Congress as a Democrat now in Upstate New York actually was a Republican once, and he served as Wes Clark's top aid. Eric Massa is also extremely well liked by the netroots you may have noticed. Check out the Kos netroots endorsed candidates list some time or Eric's Blog. Eric and Wes are still close friends. So that's another guy who knows Wes Clark really well who's opinion, formed from a very close personal association, you are willing to write off in favor of your own observations. OK, ad him to Jimmy Carter in that regard then.

By the way who said this?

"President-elect Bush inherits a nation whose citizens will be ready to assist him in the conduct of his large responsibilities."

And this?

"George W. Bush is my commander in chief"

And this?

"We are united behind our president George W. Bush, behind our country, behind the effort to seek justice not revenge, to make sure this can never, ever happen again, and to make sure that we have the strongest unity in America that we have ever had"

Yes that would be Al Gore. That pesky matter of context is also dealt with in the thread, "The swiftboating of Clark has already begun..."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=321522

[Tom Rinaldo]

114. Sure, let's talk about Acxiom, shall we?

Both Wes Clark and Robert O'Harrow Jr spoke at this 2003 Conference:

"“NO PLACE TO HIDE: WHERE THE DATA REVOLUTION MEETS HOMELAND SECURITY”

MODERATOR:
P. J. CROWLEY, SENIOR FELLOW, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS

FEATURING:
GENERAL WESLEY K. CLARK
JAMES X. DEMPSEY, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR DEMOCRACY AND TECHNOLOGY
NUALA O’CONNOR KELLY, CHIEF PRIVACY OFFICER, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
ROBERT O’HARROW, JR., REPORTER, WASHINGTON POST; AUTHOR, NO PLACE TO HIDE

Do you have any idea who Robert O'Harrow Jr is? Well it's easy to do research, but let me help you. Start with "No Place To Hide", actually the full name of his book is: "No Place to Hide: Behind the Scenes of Our Emerging Surveillance Society." O'Harrow is America's leading investigative reporter on data collection and surveillance. You can go to this web site:

"No Place To Hide", Robert O'Harrow Jr., and the Center for Investigative Reporting.
http://www.noplacetohide.net /

That will give you plenty of real research to keep you busy, and I'll get back to that in a minute, but back to the conference I mention above. Here is what Robert O'Harrow Jr. said about General Wes Clark at that public session:

ROBERT O’HARROW:
"...There is a guy that I think many of us in the room respect and admire deeply, General Clark, and he serves as a great example of someone who was deeply involved in representing a company called Axiom. And Axiom was one of those companies that responded with – I know that from my reporting – very patriotic motives. They had a lot of that as a marketer and they shared it and they shared it to good effect; it helped. They also saw ways that they could change their business model and become part of the security industrial complex. And one of the people that was helping open doors for Axiom in Washington was General Clark. The reason I raise that is because I kept finding that General Clark got to places before I did and people spoke admiringly of his ability to say what he knew, to say what he didn’t know, to play it straight, and to in every case do it in the smart way, which is why people respect him."

That's right, Robert O'Harrow knows all about Clark and the Government and Acxiom, and O'Harrow came away from his investigations respecting and admiring Wes Clark deeply. Here are comments that Wes Clark made in reply to O'Harrow at the same conference:

WES CLARK:
"...Can I just say one more thing about this impulse to privacy that you’ve mentioned, Bob, because when I was doing this – and I want to say this because Nuala is here, because when the government starts working programs and it does know where they go and where they going they are always cautious because everybody knows that these programs that do data are very sensitive. Before the government could even get a grip on some of these programs, when the word comes out on them they are blasted before people even understand it. So on the one hand, I understand exactly why there is an impulse for privacy. People – companies like Axiom were told, “Look, you just can’t compete for this contract if you talk about this to the press because we don’t know what the program is and we want to have – we want to be able to –“ this is – I’m speaking for the government – “We want to be able to see what data you have available. We want to figure out if we can use it, and we don’t want to have to answer a million inquiries from the press about it until we get it done. Then we’ll run it through.

You know, my instinct on it was a little bit different than the government’s, but I didn’t have any influence on them. I mean, my instinct would have to bring in the ACLU and to say, “Please create a group that’s sort of like a trusted group that we can bounce ideas off of and we want to run these ideas by you. And if you have strong objections, we want to hear them. We want to hear them right upfront. What we ask is that you will work with us in a collaborative sense so that – you know, you tell us before you run out to the Washington Post the next day and we have got (unintelligible.)” So, you know, we are just exploring ideas. We want to try to put this together and I do think there is a need for that. There is a need for enough privacy in governmental decision-making that the government can come out with programs and then have a chance to explain them, not to take anything away from the press because that balance is a dynamic balance. It’s fought by and maintained by hardworking reporters who make a lot of phone calls and get turned down a lot, but it’s a very important public duty.

So I am not sure if the balance is right is what I am saying. I don’t know if it’s right and that is one of issues we ought to explore...".

What other Democrats do you know nowadays who are advocating for the ACLU? Seems like most of them are afraid to even mention those letters anymore.

To save some readers time, here is a little more information on O'Harrow and the work he does taken from that Center for Investigative Reporting Web Site and from reviews of his work. Here is the intro blurb for the web site:

"When you go to work, stop at the store, fly in a plane, or surf the web, you are being watched. They know where you live, the value of your home, the names of your friends and family, in some cases even what you read. Where the data revolution meets the needs of national security, there is no place to hide."

Here is a review of "No Place To Hide":

"This surveillance state is not a futuristic place conjured in a Philip K. Dick novel or 'Matrix'-esque sci-fi thriller. It is post-9/11 America, as described in Robert O'Harrow Jr.'s unnerving new book, No Place to Hide - an America where citizens' 'right to be let alone,' as Justice Louis Brandeis of the Supreme Court once put it, is increasingly imperiled, where more and more components of our daily lives are routinely monitored, recorded and analyzed."

- Michiko Kakutani, The New York Times

I don't know what your situation is or was, but I am self employed and fly a lot on business. I was there at the airports after 9/11 waiting in line with people to get onto planes, and people were scared stiff back then. Planes left half full because people were afraid to get on them and it was killing small businesses all over the country that depend on providing services to travelers. 98% per cent of the public want to have passengers boarding air planes screened for possible terrorist connections, and I am firmly in that 98%. I just want it done right, with adequate sensitivity to civil liberties, and that always was and remains Clark's position. During the time period cited in your "research", almost all leading Democrats were meeting with and cooperating with Bush Administration officials up to and including including Cheney and his hench men, to work together to provide security inside America from further attacks which most people then believed would soon be coming.

I wish there were more people like Wes Clark involved back then, more people who like Clark would win the admiration of someone like Robert O'Harrow Jr., more people like Wes Clark who believed that the ACLU should have been brought into the loop for consultations about civil liberties implications from day one. I'm glad Clark was involved, and I'm proud of the importance he paid then and now to protecting American's civil liberties.

[Tom Rinaldo]

26. If you have the same feelings about Jack Murtha and Al Gore, then

I will accept that your position is sincere and that you are not only trying to use this issue as a straw man to attack Wes Clark.

You do of course realize that the S.O.A. fell under Clark's overall command for only a year or so at most when Clark was in charge of a Western Hemisphere Army Command, and that happened under Clinton's Administration when Clinton was revamping and reforming the institution. You also neglected to include the part of Clark's remarks where he pledged to shut down the institution if anyone found any evidence that human rights violations were still being taught at the institution. When did the ex graduates you refer to attend classes there? The 1970's, the 1980's, the pre Clinton 1990's, after that? If you were in charge of a Police Academy training police officers, and you tried to reform that Academy to address human rights concerns, and some graduate who attended it before you reformed it was found guilty of police brutality, would you be directly responsible? Even if someone who attended that police academy after you tried to clean it up later was guilty of Police brutality, would that make you guilty also? If I make a strong statement defending the positions of the Attorney General and United States Department of Justice, isn't it a wee bit relevant whether I was talking about the D.O.J. under Janet Reno or the D.O.J. under Alberto Gonzalez?

The last Democratic Administration is responsible for the continuation of that school, are you willing to place blame there also?

[ShortnFiery]

54. Roger That!

"HELL FUCKING NO" would I vote for a Retired General Officer that's SO DAMN smooth! I've briefed my share of General Officers and there's only two that I would trust.

Can't you people see when you're being played or is "that class" and "polish" blinded you to the underlying persona. A persona that I do not care for.

Clark would be a grand Secretary of Defense but again, HELL FUCKING NO for either President or Vice President of the USA. Well, unless you just love to BLOW SHIT UP! <tongue-in cheek, sort of> :-)

[Name removed]

55. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sopianae]

69. It's kind of ironic that you have a pictue of Carter as your avatar.

He didn't have a problem with Clark. He actually encouraged Wes to run the last time.

[ShortnFiery]

101. There's the difference between those who take other peoples WORD

for something and those who greatly admire an individual but still make THEIR OWN decisions.

I admire Jimmy Carter more than words can say. Especially his humanitarian efforts AFTER his Presidency. HOWEVER, I THINK FOR MYSELF.

No one should vote for some person, JUST BECAUSE someone they admire is choosing to do so.

I'm tired of this flame fest (yes, particially bated on my me, I'm sorry) and will close with this: DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH ON CLARK. Read THE BAD as well as the good. I hope after you finish your research, you will concur with me that he'd make a good Secretary of Defense, but is not material for THE PRESIDENT.

Again, Time Will Tell.

[madmunchie]

21. Love Clark, Love Gore, Love Feingold

I would support any of those men for the POTUS and hopefully any combination of those men for POTUS and VP. If any combination of two of those three names appears on the ticket we have a prayer in Hell's chance to regain our footing in this world during our lifetime.

Kucinich is up there as well, I just don't see that he has any chance, which is too bad for us.

[welshTerrier2]

23. sorry, no ...

Clark seems to be a man of great knowledge and integrity ... i respect him very much for that ...

but he's been dead wrong on the war since we invaded Iraq ... all his ideas would have been worth trying if neocons didn't control the government - but they do !!

Clark doesn't seem to realize, and this is true for far too many Democrats, that bush is in Iraq for oil ... his offerings of regional negotiations will never happen ... it's the wrong strategy because bush never had an interest in finding a solution ... the instability in Iraq and throughout the ME is all about oil - the more unstable the region, the bigger BIG OIL's profits ... Clark just doesn't get this ...

[Dinger]

32. A Classy Disagreement. Thank You (nt)

[Tom Rinaldo]

35. Even with your area(s) of disagreement WT2

I suspect you would breath a relative sigh of relief if Wes Clark were elected President of the United States in 2008. It is important to note that not only would Clark's ideas have been worth trying for dealing with the aftermath of the Bush Iraq invasion fiasco, but Clark was a voice of reason warning against it before the fact. The point is that the neo-cons do control this government, and were Clark to take a stand closer to your heart on Iraq now that would not change that fact. I think it is very note worthy that Clark has put his own Presidential Ambitions on hold while he concentrates on doing what he can to change this government through the mid term elections.

How do I know that? Easy, by counting up all the appearances he is making for Democratic Candidates who are facing Republican incumbents, in states that do not help Clark build a base for getting a jump on 2008 support. Unlike at least one other leading Democratic 2008 contender, Clark hasn't been to Iowa over a dozen times this year, I think he's been there once or at most twice. He will be in NJ next week fighting for another Democratic under dog, and NJ has little say over who will get the next nomination and the machine there solidly backed Gore last time anyway.

Meanwhile though Clark has been doing something else. He never agrees that it isn't so important now to hash out how we got into Iraq in the first place, he always brings up in virtually every interview, even when the interviewer tries to focus only on the here and now, that it was a huge mistake from day one. Clark is always driving home that lesson for the American public. Further and even more important, the ideas that Clark advanced for dealing with Iraq now were critical to advance even if it was too late for the Bush Administration to seriously commit to them. Because it is those very same ideas that must be applied to keep us out of a war with Iran, it is those very same ideas that must be applied if there is ever to be peace, justice, and stability replacing the conflicts surrounding Israel. The very same ideas also need to be applied to prevent an Indo Sub continent nuclear arms race between India and Pakistan. The emphasis on hard nosed clear eyed full range of issues diplomacy is essential for dealing with North Korea also.

When Clark talks about what the United States should have been doing in Iraq all along AFTER Bush went ahead and invaded it, he has been stating a clear consistent framework that transcends Iraq in it's implications, he is advancing an alternate foreign policy to displace Bush's Doctrine of Preventive War, one that takes into account the legitimate interests of all players in every regional conflict and recognizes that you don't make peace with friends, you must engage also with adversaries and that a policy of engagement built on threats is most often counter productive to all parties self interests. Iraq until recently dominated the public debate, so Iraq became the touch stone for Clark's alternate vision to Bush, but events breaking now are really only beginning to underscore how important it is that a different model for national security other than shock and awe needs to be articulated and promoted, and Clark has continually been at the forefront of that effort.

[WildEyedLiberal]

25. I think he's a perfectly good guy

I would have no problem supporting him if he were the candidate. I certainly wouldn't try to lie and smear him with conspiracy-theory wingnut talking points, like some people do to Kerry and other Democrats...

Funny how School of the Americas seems to be "off limits" when it comes to discussing Clark, but yet some here think they should be able to lob any smear and lie they want at other Dems...

I am not saying I believe the SOA crap, FYI...

[Tom Rinaldo]

27. Every leading Democrat has a cadre of people who don't like him or her

That's politics. Obviously Kerry has his share also. The trick is to keep discussion intelligent and open minded, even through all the disagreements, rather than perpetrate quick and distorted take downs, in the vein of a Karl Rove attack.

[WildEyedLiberal]

76. That's my point

I understand that some people are inspired by Clark, Gore, and others the way I am inspired by Kerry. It doesn't hurt my feelings if someone prefers other Dems to Kerry. What pisses me off is when people lie and use vicious intellectually dishonest smears against him which brings the level of discourse down into the mud. "Rovian" smears are a good way of putting it. I fail to see how unproven tinfoil hat swiftboat smears of ANY Democrat do any of us any good.

[Tom Rinaldo]

77. I know that was your point, I was just showing agreement.

And your basic point is very well stated in this post of yours. Nice.

[Dinger]

33. Well, . . .O.K. (nt)

[politicasista]

158. I would never do that either

And I like the General too. :)

[gulliver]

28. A great man. A full standard deviation above anyone else ...

... we have. To see it, you have to look, though. Intelligence, patience, courage, persuasiveness... And Clark is among the most progressive we have. A Clark America would be a real America again. Far less divided, far more itself again.

[Tom Rinaldo]

29. Dinger your poll questions left no room for middle ground

Some of your "No" votes will come from people who do "have a doubt in their minds" but have somewhat favorable opinions of Clark even if they aren't sure he will be a great President for everyone. If I was given these poll choices for Gore, for example, I wouldn't know how to vote, there should really have been an "Other" category as a voting option at least. Not everyone takes the time to explain their feelings in a post.

[Dinger]

34. O.K. I See Your Point

You have a lot better way with words than I do. Could you post a poll, in the future, similar to mine, but better? I wanted to edit, but hate doing that after people vote. (Unless it is a spelling error, or something like that)

[Tom Rinaldo]

36. Nah, your words are always clear in their passion

sometimes when I weave mine they become too complex for my own good, lol. It's fine, this is only one poll of many that have and will be posted about Clark and every other leading Democrat, it kicked off a discussion which is good.

Anyway my point is now "part of the record" for this thread. That's good enough. I know what you mean about editing a poll result, it's unfair to the early voters and gives misleading statistics.

[mitchtv]

39. I couldn't vote, Tho I like the General

I think he would be a great president, I definitely can't work up the enthusiasm, however. I think the same of Gore, Kerry, Edwards,and more.

[snowbear]

74. Ok.. you've stumped the band mitchtv!

Let's see..

"I think he would be a great president"
"I definitely can't work up the enthusiasm"

I am officially corn-fused!

[mitchtv]

88. Whaaat?

I love Gore and Feingold, and think highly of Kerry,
adore Dean, and
that doesn't include my second tier group
I'm not ready to make a choice, and being in California, I'll never need to , the choice will be made before I get to vote

[riona]

30. I would vote for him

He is well educated and has an excellent resume. At this time, I think we need someone with his knowledge of the military combined with a healthy respect for diplomacy. Unfortunately, by the time the Dem. primary came around, my vote didn't make a difference. In addition, I was not pleased with the media's rather condescending coverage of his campaign.

[Larry in KC]

37. I would give blood, sweat, tears and toil to see him elected

I truly believe he has the qualities to be the finest public servant I've seen in my lifetime.

Incidentally, my greatest hero is Gandhi. As Einstein said on his death, "Generations to come, it may be, will scarce believe that such a one as this ever in flesh and blood walked upon this Earth".

Now, it seems unlikely that wise people will ever say that about General Clark. However, it seems altogether more likely they may someday say it about him than about anyone else in the American political arena.

So, count me as a yes.

[xkenx]

40. My public arena hero was Bobby Kennedy, and

not since Bobby Kennedy have I been so inspired by a public figure as I have been inspired by Wes Clark.
I discovered General Clark just before he announced his candidacy in 2003. The absolute clincher was Clark's first town hall meeting in Heniker, NH right after the first debate that he was in. That meeting was shown only on CSPAN, and it is since gone from the archives. The man was amazing, a political neophyte handling and connecting with the crowd like Bill Clinton. Answering any and all questions with sincerity, knowledge, compassion. I'll never forget a very hostile question from a woman, now retired from the military, who said that she was a victim of abuse in the military and nothing ever happened to the perpetrator, and what would he, General Clark, do about that? The woman was so upset and hostile, she was shaking. Instead of being defensive or blowing her off, he looked her in the eye and apologized for the military for what happened to her. He asked her if she used the chain of command for redress. She said "yes, but," and Clark said "Didn't work, did it?" "No." Clark went on to explain how they worked very hard in his commands for equality of opportunity, equal treatment, no abuse, etc., but understood that there were still problems, and that, as president, he would work hard with the military to correct the deficiencies. He also volunteered to speak privately with the woman after the meeting to learn more about her situation so that he could help. The woman melted before our eyes! I found out afterwards that Clark met privately with her for 20 min. after the town hall and that her complaint was serious--she had been raped. Instances such as this have convinced me that Wes Clark only needs sufficient exposure to have the following to be elected President. Once people get to know this man's intelligence, character, compassion, integrity, and depth of real world experience, they become dedicated Clarkies.

[Larry in KC]

49. I think we're very much on the same page

I have been similarly amazed by his town hall meetings and other give-and-take forums. The contrast in such a setting is shocking, not just between him and someone like *, but between him and other talented politicians, forever triangulating, repeating short platitudes, exhibiting gaps in important knowledge, etc. I don't mean this to bash others, only to point out that Clark's range of qualifications is a cut above.

I especially agree with your last point, and say it often myself (although maybe not so eloquently). I truly believe that for at least a majority of the voting public, to know Wes Clark is to know that he's absolutely the right person for the job.

[xkenx]

71. I've met Clark in person 3 times, and

he is simultaneously in command, yet gracious and caring, even humble. Most politicians enter a room like a rock star with great fanfare. Clark enters as just one of the assembled, almost humbly, but when he speaks, the wisdom, the thought process, is just amazing. The last event I saw him at was a Wespac fundraiser in L.A. He gave one of the most eloquent, passionate, inspired defenses of our Constitution, our laws, our way of life that I have ever heard--and I told him so. I asked why was he not being so forceful and passionate in his TV interviews? The crowd applauded me for encouraging him to "Bring it" to the Rethugs. He wasn't defensive or anything--he said,
"I'll try harder."

[citizen snips]

38. I like Clark

I think he is doing a good job at helping the dems this year.

[MrBenchley]

41. I admire Clark a lot

He's not my first choice for president but he's definitely my second choice...

[Dinger]

44. Another Classy Reply - Thanks : ) (nt)

[wiley]

47. Who is your first choice?

[MrBenchley]

52. Right now it's Hillary

assuming she runs....but I admire Clark as well.

[xkenx]

72. I like Hillary

as a Senator. To those who would support her for President, I ask 2 questions, the same questions I always ask her supporters and have never gotten an answer:

1. Assuming Hillary can hold all of the Gore/Kerry states, please name a couple of RED states that Hillary will flip so we get an Electoral College victory.
2. How is she going to flip them?

[MrBenchley]

83. And the second I care what you want to know

I'll answer. Meanwhile, this is a Clark thread, and I will continue to say I like the General a lot.

[wiley]

75. I think the two would actually make a great ticket

but speculation is so next year. She definitely is an exceptional Senator who I'm going to get to vote for a second time.

[MrBenchley]

82. I would agree....

Clark is an eloquent and passionate Democrat with great appeal to middle America. And Hillary has weathered the storms and stood tall.

[AtomicKitten]

42. He's #2 for consideration in 2008.

Gore being #1.

Clark is one of the very few who didn't support this illegal, immoral war on Iraq.

[Dinger]

45. Classy (Again) - Thanks! (nt) : )

[Sam Odom]

67. Gore/Clark is a slam dunk

I wonder how many ways the 'insiders' will fuck that team up?

[union_maid]

43. I think he could be a truly great president

I don't know if he makes as successful a candidate as I might wish. I can't say why. I see someone who is probably more equipped to deal with the problems we're facing than anyone and he's good lookin', too. I don't see anything not to like. It's almost not an issue for me. I'm in New York. If, by the time the primaries come around to us he's in contention, I'd vote for him. I worked in a local Clark organization last time, but the whole thing was a done deal before our primary.

Even if he's not a presidential candidate, I sure hope he's in government. Secretary of State comes to m ind.

[hayu_lol]

50. Clark/Feingold...

We have no other candidates with the qualifications of these two gentlemen.

(grinch)


As for SOA, suggest the rabid individual above do some research on SOA, their candidates who went through the school for motor pool officer and truck courses, radio courses etc...and then turned into monsters 30 years later in their own countries. Most of the really bad guys from south america were CIA sponsored to the school.

[Placebo]

48. Clark is alright, but he's nothing special.

I definitely won't be backing him for president in 2008 if he chooses to run.

[Greyhound]

51. My first choice from those currently on the scene.

I would first vote for Kucinich if he could convince me he has a chance, but I'm afraid I'm too cynical anymore to believe the the amerikan sheeple would look past his appearance and vote for the best ideas.

Therefore my ticket is Clark/Edwards, in that order. Clark gets the top of the ticket for foreign policy and diplomacy, Edwards to make domestic policy (not a job I'd envy after the disaster that the cabal is going to leave behind). :kick:

[MrSlayer]

53. 100% Clarkie here.

Definitely my first choice. He would be a tremendous President.

[LincolnMcGrath]

58. As a man? Shoot, this old Army vet loves that old Army vet.

[high density]

59. I'm a Clark Democrat

I changed my affiliation from Independent to Democrat just so I could caucus for him. I think having him as president would be great for the Democratic party and the country. I already have my Clark 08 bumper stickers!

[Auntie Bush]

60. I support him 100%. Always have...always will!

In fact, he's the only one I really want. Know one else comes close!

[Tom Rinaldo]

61. Colonel David H. Hackworth on General Wes Clark

Above on this thread someone is pushing the meme that Wes Clark is some type of smooth operator who is trying to slide something by on all of us, saying among other things:

"Can't you people see when you're being played or is "that class" and "polish" blinded you to the underlying persona. A persona that I do not care for."

That meme has been attempted against Wes Clark before, Republicans in particular love to trot it out. It was discussed at length a while back on a DU thread; "The Swiftboating of Clark has already begun:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=321522

Rather than trust the many long standing members of Democratic Underground who have personally spent considerable personal time with Wes Clark on numerous times, a poster who says "I've briefed my share of General Officers" insists that he or she is the one who REALLY knows who Wes Clark is.

OK then, let's look at what the soldier's soldier, David H. Hackworth has to say about General Clark. If you don't know who "Hack", who in his later years became a military journalist, was, here are some excerpts from his Wikipedia Biography:

"Military decorations:
Hackworth earned over ninety decorations, including numerous individual citations for valor as well as unit citations earned by units he served in or commanded. He was proudest of his Combat Infantryman Badge, which he frequently wore on the lapel of his civilian sports jackets in retirement"


..."Hackworth was assigned to a training battalion at Fort Lewis, Washington, and then returned to Vietnam to lead elements of the 9th Infantry Division. He next served as a senior military advisor to the South Vietnamese. His view that the U.S. Army was not learning from its mistakes, and that South Vietnamese ARVN officers were essentially corrupt, created friction with Army leadership.

Hackworth's disgruntlement ultimately culminated in a television interview with ABC. On June 27, 1971 he appeared on the program Issues and Answers and strongly criticized U.S. commanders in Vietnam, said the war couldn't be won and called for U.S. withdrawal.

The interview enraged senior U.S. Army officers at the Pentagon. Hackworth was nearly court-martialed for giving the interview, and found himself ostracized in the defense establishment. At the same time, he was experiencing personal problems that resulted in divorce. He soon retired at the rank of colonel, and in an effort to rebuild his life, Hackworth moved to Australia."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hackworth

One might say that Colonel David H. Hackworth knew his share of General Officers, and that he wasn't likely to be blinded by polish, wouldn't you agree? In fact Colonel Hackworth at one point before he did a little research on Wes Clark and subsequently met him in person for the first time actually had some dismissive words for the General that, oddly enough, some opponents of Clark both on the political Left and the political Right still love to quote. Hackworth coined the phrase "The Perfumed Prince" about Wes Clark, a phrase he later disowned. Quoting Hackworth:

"No doubt he’s made his share of enemies. He doesn’t suffer fools easily and wouldn’t have allowed the dilettantes who convinced Dubya to do Iraq to even cut the White House lawn. So he should prepare for a fair amount of dart-throwing from detractors he’s ripped into during the past three decades.

Hey, I am one of those: I took a swing at Clark during the Kosovo campaign when I thought he screwed up the operation, and I called him a “Perfumed Prince.” Only years later did I discover from his book and other research that I was wrong – the blame should have been worn by British timidity and William Cohen, U.S. SecDef at the time.

At the interview, Clark came along without the standard platoon of handlers and treated the little folks who poured the coffee and served the bacon and eggs with exactly the same respect and consideration he gave the biggies in the dining room like my colleague Larry King and Bob Tisch, the Regency Hotel’s owner. An appealing common touch.

But if he wins the election, don’t expect an Andrew Jackson field-soldier type. Clark’s an intellectual, and his military career is more like Ike’s – that of a staff guy and a brilliant high-level commander. Can he make tough decisions? Bet on it. Just like Ike did during his eight hard but prosperous years as president."

In this 9/22/03 column by Col. Hackworth, he recounts at length reports of the serious wounds Wes Clark suffered in combat and how Clark continued to lead his men on the field after suffering them, after which he reports asking Clark:

"I asked Clark why he didn’t turn in his bloody soldier suit for Armani and the big civvy dough that was definitely his for the asking.

His response: “I wanted to serve my country.”

He says he now wants to lead America out of the darkness, shorten what promises to be the longest and nastiest war in our history and restore our eroding prestige around the world.

For sure, he’ll be strong on defense. But with his high moral standards and because he knows where and how the game’s played, there will probably be zero tolerance for either Pentagon porking or two-bit shenanigans."
http://www.sftt.us/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Hacks+Target.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=35&rnd=908.3537190930426

So folks can look at Wes Clark's life story, and his accomplishments, and his sacrifices for his nation, one can listen to the personal experience of fellow DUers who actually have spent considerable time with Wes Clark, one can read a ringing endorsement of Wes Clark from someone who fought his way up from the bottom in the military and never took shit from anyone, or one can accept the words of a DU poster who says he or she briefed his/her share of General Officers, and therefor knows that those who speak highly of General Clark must be blinded by his polish.

It's your choice.

[CarolNYC]

85. Oh, Tom, I love this piece by Hackworth

God rest his soul....He had the guts, the courage and the class to admit he was deeply wrong about Clark after he took the time to scratch the surface. I imagine there are a lot of others who would not be so big.

[ShortnFiery]

98. No one is discrediting Clark's Military Service ... only that

he talks like Hillary - his position is "whatever way public opinion blows."

He was a good General but not good for Our Country as The President of The United States.

BTW, I'm the furthest thing from a Republican. ;)

[Tom Rinaldo]

110. False again

You are backing off one step with this post because I called you on your blanket smear against "General Officers" who are all polish and spin but lacking in real substance. You can't call Hackworth all spin and polish and you know it, so now you admit Clark was a "Good General".

And you know what? people will easily see through the shallowness of your attack on Clark because they have eyes and ears of their own. They've listened to Clinton and they've listened to Clark. You make a totally empty claim here. Clark tells people what he believes. He is the only leading Democrat who has consistently warned about the danger of a Bush war with Iran for over two years. Most Democrats are afraid to say anything that might upset supporters of Israel, and arguing for talks with Iran fits that bill, but Clark does not shy away. Clark was also the only Senior Military officer at the time who argued for sending in troops to stop the slaughter in Rwanda, whcih made him serious enemies in the Pentagon, and he has been calling for an international effort to stop the genocide in Darfur for two years. In case you haven't noticed, standing up for Black Africans has never been a real vote winner in the United States.

[ShortnFiery]

120. You don't want A President, you want A Hero.

And Clark is an honorable man. But no, he has a questionable background. Those of you who are not totally enamored by him must ask yourselves, "Why does this man have so many DIE HARD fans?"

Some-thing's amiss here. We NEED an honest broker. If you all actually believe that Clark is genuine, by all means, vote for him. I HONESTLY think that he's a typical General Officer. He knows how to answer questions to come out smelling as a rose. He has no voting record and can NOT be attacked from that angle.

Finally, it would not be the first time when I've disagreed with people who I respect. Just don't expect him to be "Our Daddy Figure" because that American Dream has long since died. No, I want a President, specifically from the CIVILIAN community, not a HERO Figure that some of you make Clark out to be.

[Tom Rinaldo]

121. That came close to an insult, since you really don't know me

No, I am not looking for a hero, I am looking for the best President America can possibly elect, because the current situation demands that. I can accept that you honestly think Clark is a typical General Officer, which is not a flattering thing to say about a possible President in your mind. I can also accept that there are those, like you, who are uncomfortable supporting a person for President who "has no voting record". I think there are more accurate ways to measure a man's abilities, priorities, and values, but we can disagree there.

You start out making an assumption that something is amiss in Clark having so many strong supporters, which is understandable coming from your perspective, since you see nothing special about him, relative to others who might seek the Presidency. Speaking from experience, both my own and others, most of us who deeply respect Wes Clark now, and think he can make a great President, started out by being cool or at best luke warm toward him. We are not predisposed as a group to look to the military for heroes. I protested long and hard against the Viet Nam War starting in 1967, and was set to go to Canada had the draft lottery not given me a get out of the draft card with a 350 lottery number.

It was a personal stretch for me, I can admit that, to even consider supporting an Army General. All my life I have been a community organizer, sometimes paid, sometimes not. I don't expect a hero to make the world safe for me, we all have to do our own parts. That's why I said your comments were close to being an insult, though I won't take it as such because I think the tone of your post here is sincere. I'm not looking for "a Daddy Figure", never have and never will. I want a President who is intelligent, who is highly competent, who understands that the United States can't "shock and awe" our way to security, and who actually is highly experienced on the International Stage. Of course I want someone who agrees with me on issues like the environment, on a womens right to choose, on progressive taxation, on universal health care, on affirmative action, and so on. Wes Clark does all that in spades.

On top of that I want someone who is honest as our next President, someone who's initial instinct is to level with the public about what he or she really believes rather than conceal and mislead. See, that's the part that throws you off about Clark supporters. Because so many of us started out with an ingrained suspicion about career military officers, folks like myself tended to pay a lot of attention to what Clark did, does, and says, over a prolonged period of time. I did a hell of a lot of reading and watching. I carefully considered the opinions of a good number of individuals who I tend to trust who personally know Wes Clark. Folks like Andrew Young, Jimmy Carter, Mario Cuomo, George McGovern, and more. But that wasn't enough. I made a point to meet Wes Clark myself, to see him in person, and not just once but about 6 times by now (living near NYC and New Hampshire made that a lot easier to pull off). I've watched Clark take questions from the general public in New Hampshire, not just supporters. I've participated in live blogging with Clark also, where he had to think on the fly and commit his opinions to writing that opponents could potentially use against him, and I like the fact that he doesn't duck the hard questions.

You have briefed your share of General Officers and I spent decades alternating between community organizing jobs (often developing community services though sometimes overtly political) and Mental Health work. I've administered two mental health facilities. I,like you, think I have pretty good instincts in sizing up people and what makes them tick. My support of Wes Clark is informed support, and it is precisely because I do feel informed that I am willing to be straight forward and unabashed in saying that I strongly support him for President.

So if we can leave on this note, I do respect our different opinions. Mine is genuine and I assume that yours is sincere also. I will not say the same about some of the attack pieces on Clark that you linked to, but that is a different matter.

[Totally Committed]

That is an insult to Tom, and any supporter of Wes's, actually...

Over the last several years, I have gotten to know many Clarkies very well, and I can say, without a doubt 95% are sincere in their wish to elect the very best President for this country at this time in history, not find a hero, as your post suggests. And, Tom most definitely falls into that 95% easily.

Considering who and what has been (s)elected to the White House the last two elections, love him or hate him, you have to admit that Wes would be 1000% better a POTUS than what's in there today. I hope you will use this much energy and vigor to go after Republicans as this election draws closer. Whether you agree with Wes's positions, or you don't, you can never say he's not a good and decent man who loves this country. You just can't.

TC

[xkenx]

154. Clark HAS a voting record,

his ACTIONS over a lifetime of service to his country and his ACTIONS towards those is his commands. Means more to me than the politically calculating votes of congresspeople. See my post #135, "The Duck Principle."

[Sam Odom]

62. Me with a reservation

He should be #2 w/Gore leading the ticket in '08

[Dinger]

64. I Could Be Happy With That : ) (nt)

[Sam Odom]

66. Yea, that's a winner

I just hope we don't think we have to have another northeastener ;(

[WoodrowFan]

63. Hell Yes

I've been enthused about 3 candidates in my life (I'm old enough to remember LBJ)

Bill Clinton
Al Gore
Wes Clark


--Was a very good President..
--Would have been a very good President, had he not been ripped off...
--WILL make a very good President!

[FrenchieCat]

65. I'm a Clark supporter....and to most, it goes without saying!

We need a real leader; not a follower, not a calculating politician, not an appeaser, not a CEO, not an after the fact "I get it"er, not a 1992 candidate, not someone without Foreign policy experience, and not someone who became so sorry too late about war and peace.

We need someone who thinks out of the DC box, and understands the world.

Looking at a general election, considering that McCain is the only foreign policy guy the GOP have (and he ain't all that....apart from having the press at his back), putting Clark up for the Dems would win us the election. The voting folks know that Dems deliver on Domestic issues....they are just not quite sure we can "deal" with the National Security issue (why, cause the media tells them so). Give them Clark, and they'll vote for him....cause they would have to listen to him, and you can be sure that the man makes sense.

....Of course, you can bet that Clark will not become the nominee because they are enough out there with power and no control over him who will make sure of it and enough Dems more scared of retired Generals than of calculating "got to prove to them that I'm tough no matter what" politicians. Plus, he didn't "do" Bildenberg.....so he's automatically out of the running. That said, if enough truly understood electoral strategy, they would see that Wes Clark is a winning strategy all on his own. Pair him with a feingold as VP, and Dems take the White House in 2008...cause those are two smart tough leader guys who would do the right thing!

PS: Plus, Wes Clark cares sincerely about this country more than about his "future" and that is why he is out there. Please know that this man could be out there earning beaucoup money right now, and he ain't got no "gig" paid for by taxpayers......and many knows that compared to all of the other contenders, he ain't got no fortune. But hell no, he ain't selling his soul, he's out there fighting like us.

[MODemocrat]

68. He would be a good strong president

I'd be very pleased to have him for my president. There is no other one at this time that suits me any better....unless Al Gore runs again.

[A Brand New World]

70. Clark was my choice in 2004 but by the time the Ohio primary

finally rolled around, Kerry had the nomination in the bag, so I voted for Kerry. I supported Kerry 100% the rest of the way and to this day believe he was elected President. At this point in time, I would vote for Clark in 2008, if he ran. Dream ticket though would be Gore/Clark.

[Dinger]

73. Dream Ticket Indeed : )

:patriot:

[ShockediSay]

78. He knows what our military (strong defense) needs

and doesn't need (buncha lobbyist wannabes bucking for lobbyist jobs w/ gov contractors).

[Tinksrival]

79. I am a Proud Clark Democrat!!

I have followed the General since the draft Clark movement....
.....................
He has never disappointed me.

[zcflint09]

80. Wesley Clark is amazing

I KNOW that Wes is my choice for the next President of the US. He has a strong military background without rushing into war. His social positions are defintly open and he is a man of the people who would work for us. I am with you...Go Wes in 08!

[wyldwolf]

86. I was a Clark fan back when...

...people on DU were wondering why a few of us started talking about Clark... back when we were called military enablers and paid Clark shills and paid DLC shills, etc.

...back when Clark was call a neocon trojan horse sent by Bill Clinton to derail Howard Dean.

I was a Clark fan before being a Clark fan was cool.

[Dinger]

87. Well, You Must Have Already Been Cool : )

I can relate to being a Clark fan before being a Clark fan was cool.

[snowbear]

89. LOL! I was too wyldwolf..

Back in the John Hlinko's "Draft Clark" days!!

~~~ ~~~

Hlinko rocks!

[Auntie Bush]

115. Boy does that bring up memories and

regrets of what could have been.

I remember the first time Kos suggested Clark should run. I wrote and told him what a fabulous idea. Before that I had been wishing that man would run...then low and behold Kos wrote that article. I was so happy to know others were thinking the same thing. :bounce: (Of course, that was before Kos decided to work for Dean)

How I remember starting on this site which was filled with Deanie babies (lol remember that?) and the terrible conflicts till we drove them away as more and more Clarkies joined DU.
That was harsh! But all is fair in love and war!

Now we're all friends!

[Tom Rinaldo]

116. Ah, but all is not fair in love and war, not really

We need our own Geneva accords for the next set of Primaries, and like Clark, we should really believe in honoring them. I've learned a lot from the experience of the primaries at DU last time. I prefer now to focus on how virtually all of us, Clark supporters, Kucinich supporters, Edwards supporters, Dean supporters, and of course Kerry supporters came together to fight together to defeat Bush in the General election. We should be able to hold onto some of that.

This time I intend to be as clear as possible that there are other Democrats besides General Clark that I respect and even admire, who might make great Presidents also, though Clark remains the man who has my full support as long for as long as he remains a potential candidate.

[Dinger]

117. Excellent Idea Tom

Cripes, I went off the deep end during the primaries. I learned a lot from that.

[madfloridian]

141. Yeh, many remember that. Thanks for the admission.

"How I remember starting on this site which was filled with Deanie babies (lol remember that?) and the terrible conflicts till we drove them away as more and more Clarkies joined DU.
That was harsh! But all is fair in love and war! "

[Tom Rinaldo]

142. It was ugly all the way around. I don't fondly recall those days

and I think you already saw my current sentiments above. I never have and never will call Dean supporters past or present "Deanine Babies", and I am proud of how many Clark supporters have worked hard to support Howard Dean in his current role as DNC Chair. I have the greatest respect for both Howard Dean and DFA. I hope we all can continue to work together regardless of who runs for the nomination in 2008 or wins.

[Auntie Bush]

149. You left out the rest of my quote.

"Now we're all friends!" As Tom said, "Those weren't happy memories."

No they weren't. I loved Howard Dean and I voted for him seven times and was so upset when he quit to run for President. He was my first choice and I signed up for his meetups...but when I started watching Clark on CNN I was very impressed ...checked him out on Google. My first thought was...I wish he would run for President as a Democrat and low and behold he eventually did and I changed affiliations but I always had a soft spot and admiration for Dean...still do! I changed because I didn't think he had the necessary military experience to win the election. I might point out that I personally never said anything negative, other than what I just said on any posts. I hated all the arguing and almost quit DU because of those squabbles. I didn't think it was helping the Democratic party or the election in any way. So, Yes I remember those days...but not with affection. I was just recalling them. I guess I should have stated that. Sorry.

[truebrit71]

90. Always been my first choice. He was in '04 and he will be in '08.

I'm tired of the same old politicians, it is time for a breath of fresh air, and a VERY thorough House cleaning....

[DemExpat]

92. Clark has been at the top of my list since I saw him as NATO commander

on interviews....I thought then as now that he would make a very fine President.

:kick:

DemEx

[MoonRiver]

93. I'm TOTALLY a Clark supporter!

Wish I knew whether he's going to run or not! :think:

[loudsue]

96. I think Clark is the type of President we would need right now.

In fact, I think he would do an excellent job in straightening out the mess we've found ourselves in.

:kick::kick::kick:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

99. Vote no, as I did, even if you support Clark.

I have no particularly strong feelings on Clark as compared to other potential Democratic candidates one way or the other, but I think it is sound practice to always vote against the push of a push poll, to try and encourage better poll-formulation, and I urge anyone who objects to meaningless polls like this one to vote "no" irrespective of your views.

[femmocrat]

100. I am a die-hard Clarkie. I ran for Clark delegate in '04 and will again

in '08 if he announces his candidacy. I went out in a blizzard to collect signatures for him. I love, love, love him. I would march into battle for General Clark!

[xkenx]

106. Speaking of "Marching into Battle"

From a DU post---He instills great loyalty in those who know him.


Clark supporter feels called to duty
General made believer of wary aide
Thursday, November 27, 2003
By ANNMARIE TIMMINS
Monitor staff
________________________________________
As a junior Navy officer, Eric Massa had no choice the first time he went to work for Gen. Wesley Clark in 1996, as Clark's assistant in Panama. The Navy set up the interview, and Massa hoped to mangle it with blunt honesty.
"I didn't want the job, and I told him so," said Massa. "I was afraid of working for a pompous moron, of which there are several wearing stars. I had worked for senior officers who didn't care about people, and I didn't want to do that again."
It turned out Massa and Clark had something in common there, and Massa spent the next four years attached to Clark, first in Panama and then in Europe, during Clark's stint as supreme allied commander in Europe.
When Massa left Clark in 1999 it was under protest and only because Massa had been diagnosed with advanced cancer. Now, years later, Massa - recovered and retired from the Navy - is working for Clark's army again, this time as a campaign staffer trying to get Clark elected to the White House.
Massa wasn't looking for the job this time, either. Clark asked him to come on board after learning a month ago that Massa had "involuntarily resigned" from his government job at the urging of Republican bosses. They were upset that Massa had visited Clark at a Democratic campaign event.
"They said I was a political liability and that if I liked Wes Clark so much I should go work for him," Massa said. A lifelong Republican, Massa just re-registered as a Democrat. Massa is the son of a Navy man, and as such grew up outside America and with a respect for the military. The family came to the United States when Massa was 16, and after graduating from high school in Louisiana, Massa attended the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis, Md.
In all, Massa spent 25 years in the Navy, 16 of them on sea duty. In the mid-1990s, Massa's commanding officer told him it was time to decide how he wanted to fulfill his joint duty, a requirement for officers to spend part of their service with another branch of the military.
When Massa said he wanted to do something out of the ordinary, he was told an Army general by the name of Wes Clark was looking for a Navy aide. All he knew about Clark was that he had stars on his Army uniform, and that didn't carry much weight with Massa.
Their 50-minute interview, however, convinced Massa to withhold judgment.
"He had questions I didn't expect from a military man," Massa said. "He asked me if I was familiar with Greek literature, if I read Homer, what I thought about the Illiad.
"And the last 20 minutes were devoted to people questions," Massa said. "He asked me what I would do if a young soldier came to me and told me his wife had died. Or a homosexual soldier told me he was being harassed. His whole thing was treating people with dignity and respect."
Three hours later, Massa was on a plane with Clark to Panama, where Clark was commander in chief of the U.S. Southern Command. Massa described his job as Clark's executive assistant and deputy chief of staff.
Once there, Massa asked Clark what the Homer question was about. Massa remembers the answer: "He said he was looking for someone who was well-rounded enough to talk about issues beyond military terms."
For about 13 months, Massa shadowed Clark, keeping notes of his meetings and drafting follow-up letters to the people Clark had met. Massa said Clark forbade his staff to begin any of his correspondence with "I" because Clark wanted the emphasis on the recipient, not himself.
________________________________________
A show of support
When Clark was promoted to supreme allied commander in Europe in 1997, he asked Massa to stay on and be his advance man. Massa agreed and moved his wife and kids, who had been waiting for him back in San Diego, to Brussels, Belgium. After Clark arrived, Massa was again a close assistant and became one of Clark's main liaisons to Washington, D.C.
Massa had every intention of staying in Europe as Clark's assistant until he got sick in late 1999. He hadn't recovered from running a half-marathon but chalked it up to the flu. He blew off a doctor's appointment his wife had made for him, thinking he'd work it off.
On Nov. 9, 1999, Massa looked up from his desk to find Clark standing there. Clark told Massa that his wife had called worried about his health.
Clark had arranged another doctor's appointment for Massa, and when Massa protested, Clark gave him the only direct order Massa recalls receiving in four years. "I think we have lost the fundamental relationship between a four-star general and a Navy commander," Clark told him. "You will go to the doctor."
The doctor diagnosed Massa, who had never smoked, with advanced lung cancer and gave him four months to live. Clark cut through red tape to get Massa and his family back to the United States for treatment.
Just before Massa left, Clark convened the staff and tearfully awarded Massa the Legion of Merit medal for his work. Clark had received the same medal in the 1970s when he was a speech writer for the then-supreme allied commander.
It's one of the few times Massa saw Clark cry.
"Everyone thought that was goodbye, that I was dying," Massa said.
Back home in San Diego, doctors were more optimistic and diagnosed Massa with non-Hodgkins lymphoma, not lung cancer, and began aggressive treatment.
Unknown to Massa, Clark had a soldier tracking Massa's surgery. As soon as Massa came to in recovery, staff told him he had a call. It was Clark. At the time, he was overseeing the bombing of Kosovo.
________________________________________
A different kind of service
Massa retired about three years ago; he waited so that the last thing he did in uniform was attend Clark's retirement. Now he's living in a hotel in Manchester, trying to avoid a fast-food diet and bringing his family in from New York when he can.
He talks wistfully about the job he lost to get here. Massa was in Washington overseeing part of the Navy budget as a member of the House Armed Services Committee. His departure was reported by the press and has since become fodder for online political sites.
But he doesn't regret where it got him. On the trail, Massa is helping get Clark the veteran vote - and whatever else needs doing.
"If Wes Clark asked me to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge, I'd ask him if he wanted it done in the summer or the winter," Massa said.
________________________________________

[Son Of Spy]

102. Not in line for the presidency.

Not President, not VP. Maybe Secretary of Defence.

I don't trust

ANY Generals

.

[FrenchieCat]

103. very "blanket Indictment" of you! Me, If you want my prejudice, I don't

TRUST POLITICIANS, PERIOD!

THEY GOT US WHERE WE ARE, AND I DON'T LIKE WHAT I SEE!

[Dinger]

104. O.K. Mods, Please Do Something

I am being mocked, attacked, and so are others on this thread. I have given support to people who will likely not vote for General Clark, yet express their view with common courtesy in mind. I sure don't want to return to the primary season, and you know what I mean. When I gave them props for being respectful and courteous, I was smeared. If this falls with the rules, fine. I guess that's the way it is. It was my hope to have people with different views or candidates come together, in a manner of speaking, and show some respect to each other.
It worked, to some extent. Maybe it's time to lock this thread.

[imlost]

105. My #1 choice. n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

108. I am not a fan... but he's a Dem so...

:shrug:

[Dinger]

111. Mrs. Grumpy, Thank You

Your response is respectful, and I appreciate that.

[Cocoa]

109. I like him, but I don't like this post

and this kind of post, which seems more associated with Clark than other candidates.

Clark has plenty of support here, he doesn't need fantasies of persecution.

[Tom Rinaldo]

112. Actually we can dispense with the fantasies

the real deal showed up (not you).

[Clark_2008]

118. Besides being the most intellectually qualified person....

on the planet to be our country's leader, Wes is also one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. (Ditto Gert and Wes, Jr.)

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Rinaldo]

122. Your distrust for the military is yours to own

I've heard all the arguments, and obviously you are not alone in your discomfort at the thought of a former General as President. I'll leave that aside for now. But your last sentence is beyond the pale in being simply unfair to an extraordinary extreme. You clearly do not know that to be the case. Voting for a specific man who is a General is NOT akin to wishing for Perpetual War, nor can it be shown that, in America, it makes that more likely in the abstract, and it certainly can't be shown to be true about Wes Clark, who has been a consistent strong voice for how we can avoid war.

George Marshall was a General also and he did more to promote Peace after World War II than General Eisenhower did, who you site as the one exception to your rule. President Grant as an individual may have lacked some key executive skills, he did poorly in who he trusted in his administration, but Grant was committed to reconciliation after the Civil War. At his funeral half of the pall bearers were Confederate Veterans and half were Union Veterans.

Go ahead and make your case that you don't think putting a former General Officer in office is worth the risk you see in doing so, but please don't make such a flat out extreme statement such as: "dear fellow Americans, don't elect an Military Insider unless you wish for Perpetual War." It is below any Democrat to speak with such extreme prejudice against any group of people.

[ShortnFiery]

123. As a former Military Officer ...

I say this is NOT below a Democrat. Many of us know the politics involved in moving up the ranks. Again, there are exceptions but most people who achieve General Officer rank are as much B.S. artist politicians as they are true military leaders.

I have nothing against Generals. I respect Ret. General Zinni for all his efforts within the M.E. Theater as a Diplomatic Liaison.

However, most of us vets know, it's the Sergeants that run the military with the help of Company and Field Grade Officers. Once a person is elevated to the rank of General, they are taught to parse words and IMO be less of a true leader. Further, since ANY General is fully entrenched within the Military Industrial Complex, I don't trust them as civilian leaders.

The foregoing is NOT extreme prejudice. Specifically, I request that you refrain from categorizing my words as such.

IMO, Ike is the ONLY exception. Such an restrained and thoughtful leader, military or civilian, will not pass this way again. Again, there's only one Ike. No, in all honesty, I would NOT trust a General Officer to be the Civilian Leader of Our Country, i.e., too entrenched in the Pentagon and DOD mindsets.

[Tom Rinaldo]

125. Sorry, but any rigid categorical statement about a group of people

especially one that identifies one individual as an exception and simultaneously claims that no other exception is possible, is exactly what I called it. You did not mince words. It is no different than racial profiling. Drawing a sweeping conclusion about a group of people based on broad statistical data and/or specific subjective observations, and then applying that conclusion directly to all individuals who are identified as being part of that grouping, resulting in unequal treatment given to all members of that group. That is the core of racial profiling. But it goes deeper in American history, that is the core of prejudice. All those who have ever claimed that the white race was superior to the black race did so through general claims about intrinsic differences in the groupings that established that they could not be trusted or treated equally. It had nothing to do with judging the individual. All members of the black race were forbidden to vote at one time, and that was not only conventional wisdom, that was the law, to mention nothing of slavery.

I am not directly comparing your attitude toward General Officers in the military with segregation and worse, but yes I do challenge the basis by which you condemn all individuals within a group as a class, one that makes one group of Americans by definition according to you, unfit to be President, which would violate the American Constitution should anyone ever propose legislation along those lines. But worse, you equate support for any one of the men and women who fall within your grouping as support for endless war. That is classic dictionary definition prejudice against that group, claiming that you know how each individual member of that group will act based on your opinion of that group as a whole.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Rinaldo]

127. My post #138 was an open non defensive reply to you

I honestly tried not to take offense at yet again being called a hero worshiper by you. I do not support Clark because I "adore him" or because he makes me "feel good". Since I already took a fair amount of effort to directly explain to you why I do support Clark in reply when I could have taken your comment as an insult, I think this time I will just go ahead and take this one as the intentional personal insult it seems to be.

Groups can undergo prejudice based on a shared attribute that is voluntary, it doesn't have to be genetic or involuntary. Religions are a wonderful example of that in some cases. I have friends who choose to practice Wicca. As a result they experience prejudice. Lots of people are prejudiced against lawyers and can speak eloquently about why that is so, that doesn't prove that no lawyer can be trusted, or that no lawyer can have the best interests of others high in their minds, or that no lawyer should be elected President.

Yes I listed an extreme example but only to point out why overt prejudice of any sort goes against the grain of modern thinking inside the Democratic Party. Look, I said you obviously have your reasons for thinking supporting an ex General Officer for President is not worth the risk you perceive that brings. I didn't make a case about that. I reacted when you equated support of any General Officer with wanting and/or bringing on perpetual war. Pretty much a cut and dried no wiggle room comment on your part. That is the part that I objected to and countered as I did. If you can't see why, then I guess further discussion is hopeless.

[ShortnFiery]

128. Simple: General Officers TODAY

Are completely enmeshed within the Military Industrial War Machine. They are advisor's to numerous weapons development projects (and companies) within the entire scope of DOD.

Yes, a great risk of continuation of warfare.

It's too big a risk. And yes, like a person should be BORN in the USA to be The President of the USA, I believe that former General Officers should not be part of the "selection pool" either.

This is one area where it's IMO not prejudice, but thoughtful and wise. Respectful people will disagree but such is life. :-) :hi:

[Tom Rinaldo]

130. Closing on a more positive note, just for the hell of it

While I probably would still disagree with you, I would not have reacted as strongly if you had spoken in less all or nothing black and white terms. That's what this little flare up sub thread was about. A hint for the future, for what it's worth, saying something like "In my opinion, based on what I've seen, I would be very careful before trusting someone who served as a General Officer in the military", that wouldn't set me off the same way. See, that would establish that there is something specific that worries you, that gives you reason to be very guarded, that you think others should seriously consider before backing someone who meets the general criteria that is cause for alarm for you. From there anyone who wanted to could discuss whether or not they shared your observations and/or concerns, and how they saw Wes Clark as an individual either fitting or not fitting the picture you drew.

Leaving the abstract and moving to the specific, I see Wes Clark as an exception to the current state that you describe of the revolving door between the Pentagon and the weapons industry. So did Col Hackworth by the way, which is what his comment about why didn't you trade in your bloody uniform for an Armani suit was all about, why didn't Clark take the cushy civvy dough (which he didn't) that was his for the asking? The unspoken but obvious reference was to the Military Industrial Complex, those are the guys who kept trying to recruit Clark out of the military, who he kept saying no to.

Here is something Wes Clark said during a live interview on New Hampshire Public Radio back in 2004. You can still listen to the entire interview, the station still has it available and I will leave the link. These comments came at about 35:30 in the audio replay:

"I think General Eisenhower was exactly right. I think we should be concerned about the military industrial complex. I think if you look at where the country is today, you've consolidated all these defense firms into a few large firms, like Halliburton, with contacts and contracts at the highest level of government. You've got most of the retired Generals, are one way or another, associated with the defense firms. That's the reason that you'll find very few of them speaking out in any public way. I'm not. When I got out I determined I wasn't going to sell arms, I was going to do as little as possible with the Defense Department, because I just figured it was time to make a new start.

But I think that the military industrial complex does wield a lot of influence. I'd like to see us create a different complex, and I'm going to be talking about foreign policy in a major speech tomorrow, but we need to create an agency that is not about waging war, but about creating the conditions for Peace around the world. We need some people who will be advocates for Peace, advocates for economic development not just advocates for better weapons systems. So we need to create countervailing power to the military industrial complex."
http://www.nhpr.org/node/5339

[ShortnFiery]

131. No, I'm not "a believer"

We don't know what he would ACTUALLY DO once he's elected, do we?

No, he's highly intelligent, borderline genius perhaps, but I do NOT trust him.

Not for one moment.

I agree to disagree. ;) :hi:

[Tom Rinaldo]

133. And on this note, I too will agree to disagreee. Hopefully...

...we will discover many other areas of mutual concern where we will be fighting on the same side. I suspect that's true.

And one short after the fact P.S. Honestly, we never know what anyone will actually DO after they are elected, do we? We have a basis upon which to predict, but we never really know. I remember that Spiro Agnew was regarded as a moderate to liberal Republican when he was Governor of Maryland, before he became Vice President under Nixon and became a raginng reactionary. And few in the South saw it coming that some day LBJ would sign all of the legislation that brought about civil rights and affirmative action. And of course Georgie boy, he promised a humble foreign policy that respected other nations and showed a disdain for all "nation building" efforts. Brother...

[ShortnFiery]

136. Thank you. Part of me hopes that I'm proven wrong, and if so ...

I promise to admit my error about Clark's true intentions. :patriot:

Best Regards and thank-you for a lively but mostly friendly discussion. :hi:

[Tom Rinaldo]

137. Yeah, it took us a while to get there, but...

...I think we reached a respectful understanding. Thank you for hanging in there also, we want the same things for our country. Hopefully, whether it is you or I are who are most rightabout how best to get there, get there we will. And if we do, our differences, whatever they were, will be moot.

[ShortnFiery]

138. Well written ...

You have a gift with words, that's my genuine impression, not gratuitous.

Best Regards, :hi:

[abburdlen]

143. Now that things have cooled down...

You're entitled to your distrust and opinions but I'd ask you to take a moment and read this diary of another former military officer's take on Clark.

[ShortnFiery]

144. I've cooled down, but I make my own decisions ...

No, I don't trust General Officers to hold the highest Civilian Position of this country. Other peoples OPINIONS are not fact.

He's only a RETIRED General, Perhaps a Genius, but he's NOW demoted to the rank of a Politician. :scared: :(

I may have cooled down somewhat - but my impression and opinion remains the same.

With respect, NO more advice, please. ;)

[abburdlen]

146. Don't worry

I've no advice to give you.
though I do ask one thing... that you offer no more advice than you're willing to take.
:)

[xkenx]

135. The Duck Principle

Ducks don't wear signs labeling them ducks. If it has a ducksbill, waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck, then you know it's a duck.

Wes Clark is one of the Democratic Party's foremost progressives by virtue of his actions over the years, not by any labels that people want to throw at him simply because he had a career in the military.
It is time to appreciate just how lucky we are to have this national treasure. Just a few items:

--Clark was always butting heads with the stereotypical "macho" military Neanderthals because he saw the horrors of war firsthand in Vietnam and always espoused "diplomacy first."
--Clark was one of the leaders of the all-volunteer Army created after the Vietnam debacle. To keep personnel in you had to do a good job of providing for their family needs, health, education, equal opportunity.
--Clark actually won environmental awards at bases under his command.
--When Clark was working at the Pentagon in the mid-90s, he was virtually the only voice crying out to intervene in Rwanda.
--It was Clark's voice, along with Madeline Albright, who persuaded the Clinton Admin., over the objections of the Pentagon, to stop the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. Tell the Kosovar Albanians that Wes Clark isn't a liberal, progressive, humanitarian.
--It was Wes Clark's voice prior to the Iraq invasion who urged that we exhaust all possible diplomatic means before any military action, including in testimony to Congress.
--It was Wes Clark who filed an Amicus Curiae brief in the University
of Michigan affirmative action case.
--It was Clark who appeared on the cover of Advocate to show his support for gay rights.

Since when is it some kind of a black mark for someone to give to his country by serving in the military if he does so in a principled manner? Wes Clark felt that he could make the most impact by providing a progressive voice to that institution.


So I'd have to say Wes Clark is my Democrat, liberal, progressive "DUCK" because he has proved it.

[Cosmocat]

129. Dude ...

Your formula that you can't trust someone from the military establishment comes hand in hand with the counter belief that you CAN trust the civilian leaders ...

Look around ...

Not a single one of the scumbags who have dragged this country into a military occupation of Iraq has served a single second in the military ... Right now, the biggest problem we have is people who do not understand the TRUE cost of war, driving us into wars ... IF they have their way, they will drive us even further into war, and further enable war profiteering ...

[DemExpat]

132. Well said, Cosmocat....

just what I was thinking here...

:hi:

DemEx

[ShortnFiery]

134. Then I'll answer you both ...

Civilians, at all but the very highest levels do not have access to the latest and greatest weapon systems that General Officer's are blessed with.

No, it doesn't work that way. :thumbsdown:

[KKKarl is an idiot]

124. He is great

I love the way he is always showing those Fox reporters how wrong their opinion is. Wonder if they will renew his contract when it runs out. Maybe the run as a retired general on Fox will give him enough republican supporters who will vote for him as president. I think he will make a great president. Although I must say my preference is a Gore/Clark ticket.

[Cosmocat]

140. Fact is ...

Outside of the very most bland candidates, like a Bayh ... Clark is the one dem candidate who could pull some republican votes ...

[Crewleader]

139. Clark Fan and Supporter

Gore/Clark in 08! :thumbsup:

[ChipsAhoy]

147. Love him, love him, love him!!

(Even though I got "attacked" for that opinion on this very board not so long ago.)

[nealmhughes]

148. Had I my druthers, I would love to see DK or Bernie our president.

But I also want a Mercedes and a pony. I am pragmatic. Clark has the right qualities to unite the entire country, from experience as an administrator to education and understanding of how the world works outside of the Beltway, the Upper East Side, the Houston boardrooms and a vacation home on Nantucket. Being a flag officer is more an asset from his familiarity with the political process and admin experience than almost any other position one can hold.

He is a class act. I don't care if he has been "polished and perfumed." He pulls it off well. He has gravitas. He is a self-made man. He has appeal as did JFK and RFK, based on their youthfulness, intelligence and handsomeness. In short, he is a perfect candidate. One could hardly wish for a better media candidate.

Now for me, a rumpled old former college professor is my ideal (but Paul is dead and Bernie is just trying to get into the Senate) or a new American Havel, but there I go wishing for that pony again.

In short he is entirely qualified to be the President, V.P. (with real duties beyond presiding over the Seante to break ties and cut ribbons), Sec. of Defense or State, UN Ambassador or US Ambassador at large. If it gets to the final cuts, and it's not Gore, then I'll get my Clark buttons out.

But Dennis and Bernie, I love you both! Senator Wellstone, although I've never been to Minnesota, I'll put a rock on your tomb if I ever do.

[Sparkly]

150. Someone above asked "What makes him different?"

Either I can't find the post now, or it was edited out. (My memory is still sound!)

It was along the lines of, "What makes him different from any other military officer?" ("Military" being the Big Bad Word, it seems.)

I agree with those who've said that supporting a Big Bad military officer came with opening their own minds to their own biases. As I've said before, I'm as far from military in my background as anybody could be.

Repeating in synopsis: My Dad hated being drafted, but used his GI Bill to go to that dreaded New England Liberal oasis, Yale. Not only was it Yale, it was Yale School of Music! Not only did he go on to teach at another elitist New England Liberal Arts college, it was a college for women! It was in the 1960s, my mother worked as a liberal activist, they read liberal publications, I dated black boyfriends, and they preached the value of their work ethic, the Golden Rule, equal rights, and voting Democratic, always. We were raised anti-war, anti-Republican, and right in the same town as the Coast Guard Academy -- the very zeitgeist was anti ANYbody in a uniform and crewcut.

How is General Clark different? To me, he is consciousness-raising (if you know that term).

EVERYthing about him -- his choices in life, the decisions he made, the course of his career, everything -- shows me a different perspective on what a "military man" can be than the stereotype I harbored for so many years.

He's intellectual. A Rhodes Scholar, no less; a teacher at West Point. You only have to hear him speak when he has the time to elaborate -- such as townhall forums -- to know how brilliant he is. I have learned a great deal just listening to him. He is a true teacher.

He's patriotic. He has an ideal vision of what our country can and should be, and fought for it all his life. There is no politician alive who can show any commitment to this country beyond what General Clark has demonstrated.

He's non-materialistic. Given ample opportunities to leave the military and make a fortune in private life, he remained dedicated to service at a fraction of the salary he could have made if he'd left it. His family made the sacrifices for it. That rings BELLS with those, like me, who were raised to sacrifice money for commitment.

He's a Democrat. He has devoted his life to our party, tirelessly fighting to elect other Democrats, raise funds for them, and express the Democratic position in rightwing media. He travels throughout the country for Democratic events to an extent that's unsurpassed by ANYone I know of -- just reading his itinerary for any given month is exhausting!

He's honest. His lack of "political polish" was and remains a refreshing, educative, important quality, in my view, because the man CAN not and DOES not even come CLOSE to a lie, about anything, ever. He says what he means and he means what he says, without relying on careful scripts or politically-proper words. He calls it as he sees it, period. Agree or disagree -- if you look back on what he's said, despite the carefully cherry-picked quotes people love to cut/paste, he's been remarkably consistent, going back years and years.

He's courageous. Rather than mince words, waiting to form a safe sound-byte or press-release before responding to an issue or event, this is a man who gets out there, writes articles, gives speeches, goes into the trenches to weigh in on Fox News, regardless of how others will spin what he says. (And usually, others come out later echoing exactly what he said!) Surely he knows that if he runs again, they WILL take his quotes out of context and spin it. Where politicians fear their own words, General Clark is out there talking, taking his shots, risking everything.

He's a fighter. Yes, said this anti-war liberal, a "fighter!" I believe he knows the art of war, from an eastern, western, historical, and every other perspective. I believe he's engaging in battle on Fox not only to get our message out there, but also to hone his own skills. He knows how to take them on, he's not afraid to do it, and he's damned smarter than any of them -- including Karl Rove. He is getting prepared to go into battle, whether he determines he should be the one to lead the fight or not. "Political advisors" be damned -- in 2007 and 2008, he will know the battlefield from the retail politics to the political warfare itself.

He IS different. He's different from anybody's stereotype of "miliary," he's different from anybody's stereotype of "politician," he's different from anybody's stereotype of "businessman," AND he's different from anybody's stereotype of "Democrat."

He shares traits with all of my favorite Democrats -- Mario Cuomo, Maxine Waters, Dennis Kucinich, Paul Wellstone, George McGovern, Howard Dean, John Kerry. But he trumps them ALL, in my view.

He IS THE GENERAL.

(And I have NO doubt that my liberal parents would have loved him!)

[Auntie Bush]

151. Bravo!

[FrenchieCat]

152. Oooh.....good one, Sparkly!

He is "The" General.....

And he could kick beaucoup Ass.....but most are so afraid to go with what could do it....till it ain't even funny!

We know the winning strategy, but would we be so bold as to actually employ it, pragmatically speaking? Personally, I'm doubting that we are so smart.

[Dinger]

153. Sparkly, I Am At A Loss For Words

You definitely have a way with words. Do you give lessons? Excellent, excellent post.

[Donna Zen]

155. A post script to your wonderful post Sparkly:

Service:

Of course as a 60s survivor, I would never have picked-up on the notion of supporting a general, until in 03, a very close associate of Wellstone suggested that I explore some guy name "Clark." Okay. All of the policies were in line with people I would support, including his testimony before the war. But the more I read, the more this doubt about the General grew: why would someone so smart and able to name his price stay in the military and work his butt off for no money? It made no sense to me.

Then I read a article quoting one of his classmates. The setting was a very high-powered class in philosophy where the students, including Wes Clark, were discussing Plato. The other students had decided that Plato's gold star standing for the ruler was the most desirable. But Wes argued that it was the silver star of service that held the country together, and thus, the most important.

The General doesn't go on faux because it's an enjoyable way to spend 3 minutes out of his day. He also doesn't need the money. He does this for the country, for you and me. He understands that he was granted certain intellectual gifts, and believes that each of us must "give back" to whatever extent we can.

Yesterday he said to a group that we are endanger of loosing the country, the Constitution, and all of America's stated ideals. Wes sees regaining at least one house as more crucial than anything else we've done, or perhaps can ever do, for our country and our families. When asked about others who are taking money out of the system, and crafting their 08 messages, Wes said that they do us a disservice. It is service to the country, not the ruling of it, that drives him. Let that be an inspiration to us.

Wes Clark has taught me a great deal, but mostly he's taught me how to be a better human being and citizen.

[CarolNYC]

159. Hey Mainer Donna...

My sister ran into one of those hero worshipping, shallow, easily taken in Vets in Maine this morning...a tough looking old coot who she thought was going to give her grief when she found him checking out her Wes Clark and anti-Bush bumper stickers. Instead, tears came to his eyes as he told her how he'd served under Wes and that Wes was a great man, that he needed to be in a position where he could help people....that if anyone could help this world, it's the General. Then he asked her if she knew of anything he could do to help Wes and said he'd do whatever he can for him...Wes meant that much to him....

[Donna Zen]

160. Highest % of tree cover in the Union

Lots of oxygen...keeps us thinking clearly. Well, except for the Mainers cooped up indoors listening to Rush. Lots of those too.

Zack Bazzi said that serving under Clark the highest priority was "force protection," aka, taking care of the troops. Cris Hernandez told us when he went to work for Clark, he expected it to be business as usual with him the "token Hispanic" instead he said he entered an office that looked like the United Nations.

Just saying. There are generals, and then there's General Clark. Broad bush statements don't serve the truth, nor do they belong in any argument worth having.

[Dinger]

162. Great Story Carol, Thanks : )

Doesn't surprise me :)

[WildEyedLiberal]

161. I'm a 100% Kerry supporter...

... but I just had to give you kudos for your post. What an articulate, inspiring statement of what Clark means to you. I wish all candidate partisans would follow your example and post POSITIVE things in SUPPORT of their candidate and tell DU why they are inspired by them. Unfortunately, too many here choose to prop up their favorite by tearing other people down. I really like your post and respect your deep admiration for Clark.

:thumbsup:

[Dinger]

163. I Strongly Sujpported Kerry In The GE, And I Should Repost Pics

If I only knew how to upload from A Mac (iBook). I have some amazing pics of President Kerry! Tell ya what, my sis can do it for me, and I will TRY to get this done in the next few days. Please be patient : )

Yhanks for your classy post :)

[WildEyedLiberal]

164. Cool, that would be awesome

See my photobucket tips in the Kerry forum thread. :hi:

[DemExpat]

165. Absolutely! This says so much about Clark so well!

:thumbsup: :kick:

DemEx

[karlrschneider]

156. I didn't vote in your poll because it's not that clear to me.

He won the primary here in Oklahoma (and I voted for him) which I BELIEVE was the only state he did win, and somehow that gives me some pause because I don't trust the voters here much any more...even when they agree with me. (how paranoid is THAT?)

I voted for him because I thought he would (if nominated) have a better shot of winning than Kerry
not because of better qualifications but because of his military background which resonated with Okla voters in general even more than with me.

For me it's a tightrope, supporting somebody who has both the right political philosophy AND the
potential to actually win (Diebold notwithstanding.)

[eridani]

167. Not my first choice--

--but he may be the best we can do.