Nightmare scenerio -- A McCain-Guiliani ticket in 08?

[Armstead]

Watching Rudy on Fox News last nite made it clear that he is planning to run for the GOP nomination.

John McCain seems to be the frontrunner for it at this point.

It gave me a flash of a potential nightmare scenerio for 08.

Suppose after beating each other up in the primaries, the loser agrees to run for VP in 08. Thereore we get a McCain/Guiliani ticket or vice versa.

Is it possible such a team could clean the clocks of the Democrats?

The GOP would -- with the complicity of the Presstitutes -- have their cake and eat it too. On the surface, they would be a "new face" for the GOP that distances itself from Bush, while still representing the right wing and the Corporate Fascists.

So the GOP could run as the "Party of Change" to addeess disenchantment with the Bush crowd, while actually continuing on with the conservative status quo. And both would be the Big Daddy that American sheeple seem to hunger for in this anxious world.

Both of them have been deemed as "moderates" by the Slimy Media, even though they are actually conservative hawks on national defense and both are Corporate Enablers who just loooove Biog Business. And on social issues, Rudy is not quite as "liberal" as his image would suggest -- Remember when he tried to "clean up" the art museums in NYC as mayor?

Meanwhile, any Democrats who represent a "centrist" alternative would be seen as pale and tepid by comparison. And the GOP would be working overtime to paint any Democrat as a left wing whacko. no matter how moderate.

I hope this pessimistic daydream is wrong. But it's something we ought to be thinking about and planning for. And the Democrats ought to be looking to ways to combat this possibility by bringing out the real issues.

[GodlessBiker]

1. The ticket would win, but will never be nominated.

[Armstead]

6. If they placate the right wongers they would...

The real power in the GOP is Big Business....The social conservatives are just a tool that are used to add to the numbers.

It wouldnlt tazke much persuading to get the social right to support these two clowns. McCain hs already been pandering to them, and Guilliani could slip by through downplaying -- or repudiating -- his awkward personal life and libertarian approach to gay rights.

[elocs]

12. I'm not sure if it would win.

It has big positives, but also big negatives. I have a good friend who bleeds Republican. He is retired now and his father hated FDR, so you can tell where he learned his beliefs. He told me that he would never vote for McCain and if he was the Republican candidate that he would write in another name. I wonder how many others feel the same and would be put off as much by Guilliani also?

[GreenArrow]

2. bring out the McCain "Hugmobile"

The guy is unstable and it wouldn't take much to set him off.

[Cocoa]

3. don't believe the hype

they're both transparent hacks.

[Armstead]

7. And most politicians aren't?

[Cocoa]

44. exactly my point

despite the hype, Rudy and McCain are just politicians. The spin that they somehow transcend politics is an obvious joke.

[Contrary1]

4. We need to dig up the quotes from not so long ago...

You remember, it had to do with Senators not having the experience needed to be President.
However, being a Governor seemed to magically bestow the necessary requirements.

Now, they are wanting to run a former mayor?

[rocktivity]

5. Ain't gonna happen--neither man is humble enough

to become the other's second-in-command after losing the primary. But if it did, I'd prefer McCain/Guiliani because all we'd have do do is imply that McCain is unstable and Rudy would be the real power behind the throne, like Dubya and Cheney.

:headbang:
rocknation

[elocs]

8. According to Scoop, we have 1 candidate who would win in a landslide.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0606/S00202.htm

It shows Senator Clinton losing to any pontential Republican candidate. One Democrat would win in a landslide. I'll give you 3 guesses and the first 2 do not count.

[Armstead]

9. The Secret Weapon...

With a little tweaking, that could be our Sooper Secret Weapon.

[MrModerate]

15. Interesting, but hardly ironclad . . .

In fact, this verges on junk science and is at minimum in the highly speculative realm.

Too bad, actually, since I not only think Gore can win, but that he'd be the best president among the likely contenders.

I don't, however, think Hillary is dead meat. I think the Hill-Can't-Win meme is hugely flawed and regularly flogged by 'Licans who shit their pants at the thought of her in the White House. Which I don't really understand, since she'd be tacking toward the center so much that a lot of the 'Lican agenda would still get a serious hearing in a Clinton2 administration.

[Bucky]

27. Crap science by a huckster trying to sell his consulting services

Dr. James N. Herndon's "Affective Encryption Analysis" is utter hogwash. His analysis rather stupidly factors out Republican attack politics--their key weapon--and admirable control of media messages and spin. In these area Democrats remain totally outgunned and I don't see us suddenly adopting the mindless discipline required to correct that deficiency in the next two years.

I do agree Gore would be a strong candidate and an excellent president. He's sure running smarter now that he did 6 years ago. But it won't be a landslide. No Democrat is gonna run thru the 8-month Republican smeer gauntlet and still be able to command more than a 52-53% majority, best case scenario.

[HeeBGBz]

53. My sweet Al?

Please, please run.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

10. The Big $1,000,000,000 Question Is....

Would Bill & Hillary campaign for Gore in a General Election, especially if Gore beats Hillary soundly in the primaries.

[Placebo]

40. Duh. Of COURSE they would!

You really think they are that bitter? That they would take it that personal?

Bill & Hillary would campaign for whoever the democratic nominee was, no doubt about it.

[w4rma]

57. Nah, the answer to that question is easily predicted: Yes, with vigor.(nt)

[ugarte]

11. Don't forget fightin' Joe Lieberman, if McCain taps him

Lieberman could then be the first man to run as vicepresident in both parties.

[Armstead]

13. I would love that

He would bring the Joe Jinx to it.

[cyberpj]

14. I read that McCain hired the PR guys that attacked him during Bush run!

I used to like the guy - now I see he's the same "whatever works" type of Republican as the rest of them.

[MrModerate]

16. McCain will blow his top under the pressure of campaigning . . .

And come off looking like a madman; Giuliani's charm and charisma will curdle fast. I don't fear this team.

[Armstead]

18. You undertestimate the Media and American stupidity

Whatever might happen, the media will downplay it, and Americans will overlook it.

If McCain werer to blow up, it would be attribute to his manliness and strength. And would show that he truly is a "maverick."

[MrModerate]

28. Well that's certainly possible. One can certainly get in trouble . . .

Depending on the press to notice when a red-hot poker's been shoved up their collective ass.

However, I think the natives are restless -- even the upper echelons of the chattering class -- and are ready to swap their blind lapdog role for something a little more feisty.

With regard to the American people, remember they demonstrated broad good sense during the Clinton impeachment imbroglio, largely rejecting the 'Licans manufactured outrage. As an occasional optimist, I'm thinking they can generally tell the difference between shit and shinola. And lest you throw Schimpanski's elections in my face to contradict my argument, let's remember that he didn't actually win in 2000 or 2004 -- although he did attract millions of votes.

[soothsayer]

17. Ain't gulliani pro choice?

[Armstead]

20. That could a lways change

If he ses the possibility of the White House, he could have a Road to Damascus conversion.

[Bucky]

26. Corporate types love him. He'd get the Cheney treatment

Cheney disagrees with the fundies on their anti-gay hysteria. He's quietly distanced himself from the anti-domestic-partnership legislation. But they don't give him shit about it. He's just the babysitter, after all.

[OzarkDem]

47. And pro-public adultery n/t

[leesa]

19. We need to glue McCain to Bush's butt...shouldn't be hard to do.

Guiliani is just a sleaze, so he shouldn't be difficult. A little truth about his role in 9-11 should do him in.

[DesertRat]

52. McCain and his best buddy

[sabbat hunter]

21. Guilani

will never get the nomination
he is pro gun control
pro-choice
pro gay rights

[calico1]

22. Giuliani isn't "pure" enough for the

fundies. He isn't particularly religious. Even if he embraces the zealots in the party I'm not sure he would be acceptable. There is plenty of dirt on him too. He moved his mistress into Gracie Mansion while still married for one thing. And if he embraced the right he would have to go against many of the things that got him elected in the first place: abortion rights, gay rights, etc.

[PATRICK]

23. It could just as well be two ham sandwiches

and the same thing would unroll as you have astutely delineated. The real point is how safe the Bush circle would feel in having two suspicious lapdog mavericks not in the dynasty clique running things at all, however briefly? Even with a slew of Bush/Cheney holdovers on staff and entrenched in Scotus and elsewhere? If they are absolutely confident in the weakness of Dems and the control over their successors they might allow it, but even with that they would prefer to keep it all in the family- so to speak.

They would also love to have a Dem siting duck dumbly up there taking all the heat and collapse and doing nothing about those secret illegal things and crony appointments. Joe, we needed you!

But in the end, successful or fearfully out on a limb, the preference always comes back for a total inner circle "appointee" or simply- another Bush. Since that is not democratically sustainable(never was) the destruction of America and its liberties will continue disproportionately to their real need.

McCain and Guiliani have gone to great lengths to swallow their pride and look like stupid cronies. Not enough. Neither will be allowed. Better a real dweeb like Pataki or a self-destructing democrat than to let go at all the real reins of party power to an actual new GOP presidency. And the Bush machine has shown signs of keeping all the pretenders in their place- even floating Jeb without any outcry or criticism.

They can only protect themselves by destroying all democracy, even the contest pretense rigged in the GOP's favor. They have gone too far to pass the torch to a new incendiary, but how much will they settle for in order not to lose everything?

[Armstead]

42. I think Rudy's in the fold and McCain looves Big Business...

So tghe power brokers would feel safe and secure with them in charge.

The elite respect the power of marketing too. If the Bush crowd has the odor of stale fish, the folks in charge will happily put some other rioght wing corporate clones in there, like McCain and Rudy.

[Bucky]

24. Yes, it's a strong ticket. And a sign the RWers are discredited in the GOP

Giuliani doesn't strike me as the "willing to be Veep" type, tho in the pressure of a campaign that is probably not going to be going their way, it's hard to see how he could refuse. They'd never nominate him for president.

Usually with Republicans, it's easy to see in advance who the fix is in for--they haven't had a surprising nomination in 26 years. We knew years in advance about Dole, Bush, and now the all-but-certainty of McCain. He's probably the only credible conservative with cross-over appeal untainted by Bush's miasmic performance in office.

McCain would mop the floor with Kerry, Clinton, or (I'm afraid) even Edwards.

[strumdatjag]

25. McCain Unlikely - Guiliani Never

McCain is the strongest candidate the Republicans have, and Guiliani is equally formidable. However, don't fear - The Republicans will not nominate either one for either pres or veep. They will probably nominate some unelectable far-right consevative who passes every Republican litmus test (George Allen, Sam Brownback . . .) Guiliani fails the anti-abortion litmus test and McCain fails the "always suck up to your party's establishment" litmus test. Now, don't get your hopes up - the Democrats won't be any smarter. The always anti-military, "smile on your terrorist brother" wing will eat alive anyone outside of the 100% antiwar orthodoxy. This will deny the nomination to Hillary and any other strong candidate who can actually win. That will leave the national race one terrorist act or foiled plot away from being lost (watch what happens in Connecticut for a preview - or look back to Conneticut to see how a Republican Lowell Weicker was elected after after their longtime Senator was backstabbed by the party). The orthadoxy just doesn't care to win with someone with whom they agree 94% of the time. Someone like Russ Feingold would be the next McGovern, unless the Republicans nominate one of their zealots that's even more unelectable. My prediction - 2008 will be a win for the party which nominates the candidate who pisses off America the least and the polarization will continue.

[SPCAworks]

29. I have a VERY

good grip on what's going on.

McCain -No go. The base despises him.

Giuliani -only if he kisses ass to rightwingers. Which he is... swapping spit with hanity last night.

Allen -safe repug bet

Gingrich -dream opponent for dem party

romney -freaks out people in alabama because hes mormon.

Mytake:

Giuliani- tough opponent, plays the middle nicely. Will have problems with the RW, tbh he's a moderate. Can defeat likely dem candidate. But I doubt he'll be nominated. The stupid RW will either:

1)go with Allen which is about the same as going for DOLE.

2) go for Gingrich because he projects their hate, easily demonized by dem... even hillary can beat him.

[rep the dems]

36. What about Frist and Brownback?

I mean, yeah, they're douchebags but they still have a chance since they're in the GOP.

[SOS]

30. McCain/Lieberman more likely

McCain joking on Jon Stewart about running with Stewart as a fusion ticket.
David Brooks announces McCain/Lieberman ticket in his column this week.
Unity 08 very happy with Brooks' column.

The possible scenario:

The fundies deny McCain the nomination. Frist gets it.
Democrats nominate someone like Clinton or Biden.

MCain/Lieberman will announce their "Bull Moose" run once the Rep and Dem nominees are assured.

This plan also helps explain why Nomentum is obsessed with keeping his Senate seat.
He wants to run for VP again.

[strumdatjag]

33. Repubs won't go with Lieberman

I don't think McCain is to the point of running as an independent (although he does have the ego for it). Lieberman disagrees with the Repubs on everything except the Iraq war, a few national security issues and Joe's one speech on the Senate floor criticizing Bill Clinton's morals. The GOP base that would never support Guiliani will definately never support Lieberman, who is solidly pro-choice.

[Snivi Yllom]

31. McCain/Giuliani VS. Hillary/Richards

interesting

[rep the dems]

34. God help us if you're right.

[snowbear]

35. He's not right.

Don't worry!

[rep the dems]

37. Yeah, I really doubt it.

As much as people talk about her, I don't see Hillary getting the nod, and Richardson has very little name recognition. As for the Republican ticket, it just ain't gonna happen.

[snowbear]

32. Armstead, how the hell do you know WE won't have the Nightmare Scenario?

The title of your post ASSumes that the "older than dirt" McCain and Rudy "I married my cousin" Guiliani would beat out any two awesome candidates that we put forward.

You're giving them too much credit, and are already writing off the Democratic Party.

McCain is so old now that he slurps when he talks. That, and his adoration for Bush will turn off many moderates.

Guiliani has so many skeletons in his closet that Democrats would have a hay-day with him!

Who is it that thinks this team is so great, you and the other Faux viewers?

It sure isn't most DU'ers.

[Armstead]

43. I didn;t say I think it's great....

Both McCain and Rudy are Trojan horses for the right wing. But I think the media and the pragmatic strategists in the GOP will push them through to give the appearance of "moderation."

And your little remark about "the otehr Fox viewers" would indicate you haven;t read many of my posts over the years. I'm a Wellstone/Bernie Sanders progressive all the way.

Which is one reason I am so jaded about what the Democrats will do. Rather than putting a red meat liberal or progressive who could really contest the GOP on the issues that matter, I fear they will undoubtedly find another corporate "centrist" or an "I'm not really a liberal" type like Kerry.

[LittleClarkie]

38. Depends on how much pull the Conservatives have in the party

Neither is acceptable to them, I think.

[Armstead]

41. They'd listen to Rudy on "national defense" and overlook the rest

Despite the claims of the media to the contrary, Rudy is no social liberal. He just has a large tolerance for diverse sexual activity, including his own marital "issues."

But he can always pull a GW and attribute his past problems and "liberality" to a past that he had before discovering Christ or something like that.

[Awsi Dooger]

45. That's exactly right

Guiliani is accepted by the right wingers. I post on a couple of balanced political sites and they've convinced me of it. Posters who I never dreamed would accept a pro-choice and pro-gay rights candidate have been championing Rudy as their top choice for 2008. It's also revealed in the state polling done by Strategic Vision. The Republican base despises McCain, as someone upthread mentioned. He's as good as done.

The conventional wisdom will probably be here and other lefty sites for another year or more, that no way Guiliani gets the nod. Then we'll be dumbfounded when it happens.

[many a good man]

39. It would split their coalition and ensure defeat

They need nutty fundies to win nationwide. Hagel is the only nominee I worry about.

[OzarkDem]

46. GOP has been saying that for a year now

We'll see. I'm not impressed.

However, I do think the GoP is going to shove their filthy convention down Cleveland's throat.

[Cleita]

48. The neo-con vampire bats wouldn't allow it.

McCain and Guiliani might display minds of their own and that isn't allowed. Look for them to float Jeb Bush and another loser, maybe even Dan Quayle again to the nomination.

[dback]

49. National Review this week dissed both of them re: S. Carolina primaries

Neither of them is "pure" enough to survive the Republican primaries. The irony is, if they made it to the general election, they'd probably win in a cakewalk.

But neither of them is anti-choice, anti-gay, pro-God squad etc. ENOUGH for South Carolina's religious conservatives, who are one of the key primary voters. (They wouldn't play well in Iowa, either.)

Here's hoping the True Believers nominate Sam Brownback or Bill Frist--and fail.

[fishwax]

50. that's not a nightmare, it's a pipedream, and it would be great to see

it's thoroughly unlikely that either would get the nomination. (if either of them did--giuliani in particular--it would be a great sign, as it would mean the religious nuts lost the gop civil war, which would in itself be a good sign.) And if one did get the nomination, they would pretty much be barred from selecting the other as a running mate. (Again, if McCain somehow managed to secure Giuliani as his running mate, it would signal that the religious nuts had been totally neutralized in the gop civil war; they would go apopleptic about a pro-choice, pro-gay rights running mate with a social non-conservative at the top of the ticket.) Translation: if we see a McCain/Giuliani ticket in '08, that in itself is a major victory and a positive sign for America's future.

And then, to top it off, that ticket would be roundly defeated in the general election. Social conservatives would have little motivation for getting involved, and the religious nuts (without whom the '04 election would have easily gone for kerry) will stay home, keeping their votes, their infrastructure, and their various resources (financial, media, etc.) to themselves. Maybe the McCain/Giuliani ticket gets some crossover, but there's no reason to believe that a dem ticket (particularly one bolstered with solid national security credentials) wouldn't get some crossover too.

[Dulcinea]

51. Not gonna happen.

McCain will definitely run, & maybe even get the nomination, because look at the rest of the field: Frist? Brownback? Allen? Ugghh. They have all the charisma of a rectal thermometer.

However, Giuliani's ego is much too big to play second fiddle to McCain or anyone else. Plus he's Catholic, pro-choice, anti-gun rights, pro-gay rights, & that won't play well in the rural South.

[benEzra]

54. Guliani is a ban-more-guns zealot...

in the mold of Sarah Brady and William J. Bennett. Half of gun owners are repubs, so if the party leadership isn't abysmally stupid, they'd realize that would present a problem. For many people on the fence, the gun issue is often the ONLY issue keeping them from voting Dem.

Having a prohibitionist like Guliani on the ticket could open up the possibility of a pro-gun-rights Dem running against a repub who advocated banning rifles and shotguns with handgrips that stick out, which would be disastrous for the repubs.

Since it was largely repubs (*cough*Gingrich*cough*) that maneuvered national Dems into passing the idiotic 1994 Feinstein ban--knowing it would blow up in Dems' faces--at least some repubs are aware of the pitfalls of the issue.

[opihimoimoi]

55. Too Little Too Late ...Pubs are damaged goods this year...

[JI7]

56. would you want a President who commited incest ?

that's what you say about Giuliani and maybe get voters to not support him. his first wife was his cousin(first cousin).

we need to ridicule him on this.

but i can easily see McCain picking Giuliani as his running mate. McCain has said that Giuliani is his soul mate.

[charlyvi]

58. Nevermind.

Wrong post!