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DLC: a little policy advisory group or a corporate infiltration?

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 05:51 PM
Original message
DLC: a little policy advisory group or a corporate infiltration?
this thread is going to quickly decline into total idiocy ... maybe there's just no way to avoid that when the DLC and its relationship to the Democratic Party is the issue ...

for some time, i have pushed for party unity ... it's almost unimagineable that we could have an internecine civil war within the Democratic Party and expect to be able to reclaim national prominence and power ...

battles back and forth have argued about just how large the progressive wing of the party actually was ... i've frequently been referred to as "Mr. One Percenter" in my "cordial discussions" with DLC proponents ... for a very long time, i saw our wing of the party as an unrepresented minority ...

well, not so fast there, bucko!! increasingly, the progressive wing has emerged as the majority voice in the party ... to take just one issue, even outside the party, a majority of American now oppose the war in Iraq ... candidates like Hillary Clinton are out of touch with the majority of Americans on this critical issue; when you extend that to just the Democratic Party, her position lies in a very tiny minority ... but this thread is NOT about any single Democrat ... the point is that the DLC is NOT the majority voice in the party and it's way past time for our elected leaders to start recognizing that ...

most of us are sick and tired of the America's pro-corporate agenda and we see our own party doing virtually nothing to address this problem ... we see a nation that has been sold to the highest bidder and we see no remedies or platform planks to fight back on behalf of the American people ...

and we see a DLC with a list of contributors from all the wrong places and an agenda the majority of us strongly oppose ...

so here's the question ... what's in the Democratic Party's best interests: peaceful coexistence or all out war for control of the party? bash away all you like from either side but please at least respond to the question being asked ... i'm hoping to get some good insights about whether to continue calling for unity with all corners of the "big tent" or whether to push to rid the party of these corporate infiltrators ...

before you respond, you might find it useful to read Sirota's latest salvo ... here are a few excerpts:


source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/temper-tantrums-at-big-mo_b_27124.html

But, of course, we're expected to forget that reality - and forget what the DLC's huge treasure trove of corporate cash has bought over the years. Kilgore wants us to believe that the DLC, for instance, had nothing to do with aggressively pushing corporate-written trade deals that deliberately undermined Americans' job security, wages and benefits - all to the benefit of the DLC's big corporate donors. He wants us to believe the DLC had nothing to do with these trade deals, despite the DLC's well-documented record pushing these trade deals even today - as trade policy's horrific consequences for ordinary Americans are intensifying.

Similarly, he wants us to believe the DLC has been a great champion of health care reform, instead of what it really has been: a force that, at every turn, has tried to make sure Democratic Party policy never challenges the profiteering of the DLC's health and pharmaceutical industry donors.

We're also not expected to remember that the DLC and cronies like Lieberman have made their name viciously attacking progressives on all sorts of issues and undermining the Democratic Party's ability to have a clear message that contrasts with Republicans. <skip>

You may recall it was DLCers like Will Marshall that helped neoconservatives push the Iraq War in the late 1990s. You may recall it was the DLC and DLCers like Joe Lieberman who helped legitimize the concept of Social Security privatization as far back as 2000 - undoubtedly making their donors in the financial services industry very happy. You may recall it was the DLC's congressional arm that authored a letter to Speaker Dennis Hastert demanding Hastert pass the credit card-industry written bankruptcy bill. <skip>
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elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. WAR FOR CONTROL OF THE PARTY. By a landslide.
There is no "peaceful coexistence" when one faction is made up of traitors.
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CrushTheDLC Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Republican infiltration designed to kill the Democratic party from within.
....and anyone who says otherwise is either blind or lying.
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notadmblnd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I agree with your assessment.
nt
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I couldn't agree more!
And, you said it beautifully!

TC
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Burried News Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
9. Agree ... they are masters of the CON ...
CONFUSION ... the weapon of Psychological Warfare.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I agree.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
36. I agree. And Lieberman's behavior and the GOP's behavior in relation
to him this past couple weeks nails it down.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
103. If I were a wealthy corporate republican, I would invent the DLC if
there were not one already.

Then I would sponsor them, and support them, and make them do as I wished to the extent possible without totally blowing their cover, so I could render the Democratic Party as ineffective as possible until I eventually destroyed it as an opposition party.

You can do a lot of nasty things if you have enough money and are motivated by power and greed.

And republicans have lots of money and are motivated by power and greed.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Decline?
Seems like it started out there....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Hey, don't cry to me because your lame thread is lame
"actually, given your response, my first sentence in the OP proved amazingly prescient"
Hey, instead of posting anti-Democrat horseshit, why not type the words "this is idiotic" next time and save the bandwidth?
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. "anti-democrat bullshit"
when i see the term Democrat used the way you use it, it's usually coming from a republican ...

most of us prefer the term "Democratic" ...

and Benchley, that first sentence was written with just you in mind ...

in response to Mr. Sirota's points about the DLC being in bed with the health care industry, and supporting the bankruptcy bill, and pushing an anti-worker agenda, Mr. One Percenter uses a classic rebublican slur, "anti-Democrat" ...

you had every chance to make an intelligent response but once again all you can do is sling moronic, non-responsive bullshit ...
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. You actually expected an honest answer?
:rofl:
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. wellllllll ...
you know, my OP question was a serious one ...

but certain people seem to prefer playing the insults game ...

as i said, "total idiocy" ... who, on all of DU, could do a better job guaranteeing the results as predicted?
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. lol
I mean.....
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #30
58. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #58
81. The 101st keyboard brigade all went to the same bootcamp...
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #81
96. Yup, and they're all "protected"
The rest of the posts get removed.

How..... interesting...

Must be nice to be so .... spechullll

:hi:
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
102. Thanks, ThugLife, that will make responding to YOUR posts
so much simpler and easier...

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THISISIDIOTIC:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
39. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. This not a response to the OP, but rather a question for a DLC supporter
In your view, is the DLC concerned more with policy or strategy?

Impute NO second or hidden agenda to that question. I really want an answer to exactly what was asked. More than a one word answer would be greatly appreciated.

For those who don't know me or who only *think* they know me, I am neither DLC nor 'far left'. I am willing to have honest discussions with all comers. Listening leads to learning, flames lead to ears rolled shut.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #8
31. Yeah, it's rapidly descending like the man said...death to all! (snicker)
Doesn't the "We hate Democrats" club ever get tired of looking so silly?
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CrushTheDLC Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. I don't know..... Do you?
You're the only one I see hating Democrats around here.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. The anti-DLC crowd descends further.....
From the "rant" Sirota is sniveling about....

"just intoning "DLC" and hearing the instant cheers is a nice shorthand, and less politically risky than, say, frontally attacking Bill Clinton. The fact that this sort of code and the lurid narrative it signals makes the messenger sound a bit like a Larouchie off his meds is, I suppose, a small price to pay for the message it sends to listeners eager to hear it."

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CrushTheDLC Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #35
41. So you're here to defend the DLC then?
It certainly seems like you are a fan of theirs. But then again, you might not be?

You certainly don't seem to have much love for them here or for that matter, here. In fact, I gotta credit you for this one....

Everytime I run into anyone from the DLC or anyhting any of them say, I'm reminded of what Harry Truman once said: "Give the voters a choice between a Republican and a Democrat pretending to be a Republican, and they'll vote Republican every time."

Sounds like something I would have said myself. And probably have. But coming from you, it sounds kinda funny, because I hear this odd noise in the background, which I can't quite identify......


Oh wait, now I got it........


Flip - Flop :evilgrin:

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. And nobody is dredging up your old posts
Edited on Sun Aug-13-06 11:38 AM by MrBenchley
for the obvious reason that nothing you say is worth the hearing of it....

The "flip-flop" is especially telling.....what a success that was when Republicans threw it at DLC member John Kerry! How high would your post have to ascend just to meet the low water mark claimed in the first post?

By the way, since we have yet another clamor for one of my greatest hits, let me just say that back then I had not looked into the matter and just assumed the anti-DLCers were honest Democrats. Today I know how chock-full of shit they are.
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CrushTheDLC Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Nobody's dredging up my old posts......
....because I don't have any. But thanks for asking :)
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #31
44. Are you talking about the DLC?
When did you finally stop supporting the 5th column?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #31
104. Look in the mirror and ask YOURSELF that, ThugLife
since, as a person who STILL supports Lieberman, YOU are now the only member of the "we hate Democrats" club.
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zeemike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
11. Well I wish I had a long well thought out answer for you
But as an average person I have little real knowledge of people in high places.
And not knowing them makes it hard for me to know what is good for the party, I only know what is good for people like me which is most of America.
What we the people need is a populist leader that is truly concerned about average people and not the interest of people with great wealth and power. Someone like a Howard Dean that can take back the party for those that have little influence in it now.
But we have seen that it is not going to happen because there is too much power against any populist candidate that should stand up.
So based with these facts, what do you think we should do? does it rise to the level of revolution or the corporate interest that do control politics and our government just represent a benevolent big brother that we should just get used to and accept?
More questions than answers I guess.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. Have you read "Hostile Takeover"?
It's all there. Mostly Sirota takes on the regime of evil-doers, but he is not shy about the sins of those "Ds" who smile and smile while they stab you.

An example: Lieberman voted for closure on the bankruptcy bill. Being in the minority often makes the "closure" vote the only vote that counts. Then Lieberman turned around and voted against the bill. This essentially useless vote "nay" is what Lieberman touted in a press release sent out to the voters of Connecticut.

The book has found a place on my reference shelf.
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Stinky The Clown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. He pulled the same sorta stunt in the Judge Slappy confirmation
Yeah .... he voted against Slappy .... when the vote didn't mean shit.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. Exactly
And Lieberman is not alone in performing this trick. It is how they keep those perfect 100% pure liberal ratings while selling us out.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. it's the old Mrs. Lincoln joke ...
well, other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play ...

the "Lieberman voted with Dems 90%" argument is bunk ... there's a whole lotta room for a whole lotta evil in that other 10% ...
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. There's a whole lot of more % in question
Amendments... statements to the press... and more:

HACK: Jim Moran, Virginia congressman

________________________________________

Bailed out by special loan, pays back credit card companies with his vote.

In 2002, Virginia representative Jim Moran (D) was nearly $700,000 in debt. Like millions of Americans hammered by exorbitant interest rates. Moran said, "I didn't see any way out." Except Moran is a prominent congressman, so he was able to get himself a special loan from credit card giant MBNA that, according to the Washinton Post,"permitted him to borrow more money at a lower cost than was standard for the industry." You'd think after his own ordeal, Moran would want to help more Americans get out of the red. Yet, according to the Post, as Moran was negotiating the loan, he also was supporting a bill pushed by MBNA and others in the credit card and finance industry that would make it tougher for people to walk away from debts by declaring bankruptcy." The special loan, in other words, was essentially a payoff from the credit card industry for Moran to push its agenda. (Hostile 113)



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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. i haven't, Donna ...
can i infer from your response that you think we're in an all out war with the DLC?

if so, how bad will the political damage be?

IF the DLC is a pure infiltration, it doesn't seem like we really have any choice ...
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. War?
What we have is a party inside a party. That means aside from the normal friction over policy between members, the Democrats are contending with two different bodies setting policy. Lebanon is not at war with Hizbullah, but by tolerating Hizbullah, Lebanon's government cannot govern its country. I'm not suggesting that the DLC are terrorists; my comparison was the only thing I could come up with. Anyway, I can see why what is going on within the party cannot work, especially as the DLC goes ever more distant from the needs of the American people.

What Sirota has created is a carefully researched book that is organized by issues: Taxes, Wages, Jobs, etc. What follows in each chapter is a discussion of "lies" and "myths" followed by possible solutions. He definately names names. As I said, for me this is a reference book. Sirota also gives credit where credit is due.

The bad Dems. are DLC...or at least I think they are, but that doesn't make everyone who has joined the DLC the absolute enemy. People join for various reasons. I assume that money looms large, but also within the party apparatus, the DLC holds out leverage for those with higher aspirations, the new "old boy club." It the concept of this internal organization functioning at times to undermine the party that causes the greatest grief.

If I've learned anything from my experience over the past 5+ years, and from Sirota, it is that only a hand full of people in Washington actually give a squat about representing us. Write off all of the republicans and many, many Democrats. It is truly sad.

BTW, he devotes 1/2 page to Evan Bayh.



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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
20. The DLC has a huge brand equity issue now.
Edited on Sat Aug-12-06 08:19 PM by Pithy Cherub
This year has been a colossal failure to increase the influence and scope of policy it has 'strategerized 'about for years. The actual strategy to get Democrats to coalesce around the DLC's policies and candidates has suffered tremendous losses with the most recent being the smackdown of their patron saint joementum. The DLC candidate's in Montana, California, Virginia, and Iowa to name the recent losses were replaced by progressive populists.

The failed DLC strategy was to stay the course with Bush's failed policy. Even that is taking a hit as the DC establishment realizes that the mix in Congress will change after the 2006 elections. That changes the political broken abacus the DLC had been using to prognosticate why they had such power. The DLC's public loss of face has undermined credibility with the so-called corporate media muttons who now looking hard at the Left & Liberal blogosphere as a new power source equal and getting stronger than the DLC. That causes fight or flight instincts to kick in on behalf of a DLC that sees everything being eviscerated by people who not only blog, but donate and vote.

Corporate donations are now matched with efficiency by the netroots so even the heralded money primary loses its cachet with the ease of a click of a mouse. The DLC is having what would be called a change management issue where they are fully expected to make the changes to happily embrace the new power structure - when they had believed they owned the Democratic remote.

You know what happens when people no longer have the remote...:popcorn:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Seriously?
The DLC candidate's in Montana, California, Virginia, and Iowa to name the recent losses were replaced by progressive populists.

Montana - Trying to figure which candidates you're referring to in Montana. Is it Ken Salazar, who supported Lieberman in the primary and STILL supports his Independent bid? Ken Salazar who just wrote a piece for the DLC on how to win in a red state:

http://www.ppionline.org/ndol/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=106&subid=122&contentid=253987

The Ken Salazar who just spoke at the DLC's convention in Colorado?

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4091081

In Virginia, are you talking about DLCer Tim Kaine who won the Governor's race last year? Or are you referring to Jim Webb, a Reagan Democrat who was endorsed by DLC members over his more liberal opponent, Harris Miller - who the Progressive VA Free Press called "a Sensible, Thoughtful, Progressive Candidate" vs. Webb "an Opportunistic Reaganite"

Who endorsed Webb over Miller? Chuck Dolan, President Clinton’s Virginia Campaign Chair and a founder of the Democratic Leadership Council, Tim Kaine, DLC. John Kerry, DLC. And more...

Just because leaders in the netroots like Kos and Sirota have taken a pragmatic view of the VA race certainly doesn't mean Webb is a "progressive" by DU standards.

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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Salazar not in Montana
Morrison v Testor...Testor won. <---not DLC

Kos is fairly conservative, and Sirota is too. There is nothing leftwing or even liberal about wanting honest government.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. Yes, seriously.
Salazar is in Colorado. Go north young man to Montana where Testor won. Even the DLC won't unite behind Holy Joe - Bill Richardson said step aside. Clinton and Bayh now support Lamont. Angelides said get my name off your list. Warner wouldn't even show up for the DLC gabfest. It's a brand that is in decline.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
21. A lovely Anti-DLC Rant from David Sirota....
Edited on Sat Aug-12-06 08:30 PM by Totally Committed
No one writes about the DLC with a passion that matches mine, except David Sirota. This is one of my all-time favorite SirotaBlogs on the subject. I hope it sums it up for you the way it did for me when I first read it:

The Democrats 2008 Choice: Sell Out & Lose, Or Stand Up & Win
by David Sirota

The 2008 Democratic presidential candidates this week are busy genuflecting at Corporate America's altar -- otherwise known as the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC). Now, it's true -- the DLC is really just a group of Beltway-insulated corporate-funded hacks who have spent the better part of the last decade trying to undermine the Democratic Party's traditional working class base -- a base that had kept Democrats in power for 40 years and now, thanks to the DLC, has been forfeited to the Republicans.

Even so, the fact that these presidential candidates feel the need to bow down to the DLC is a troubling sign about whether the Democratic Party is really serious about regaining power in America.

Let's just look at the cold, hard facts about the DLC and its record. The DLC has pushed, among other things, the war in Iraq and "free" trade policies, using bags of corporate money to buy enough Democratic votes to help Republicans make those policies a reality. They have chastised anyone who has opposed those policies as either unpatriotic or anti-business -- even as a majority of Americans now oppose the war in Iraq, oppose the DLC's business-written trade deals, and are sick of watching America's economy sold out to the highest corporate bidder. Additionally, in brazenly Orwellian fashion, the DLC has also called its extremist agenda "centrist," even though polls show the American public opposes most of their agenda, and supports much of the progressive agenda.

Now, you could make a credible argument that the DLC's corporatization/Republicanization of the Democratic Party was justified, had it led to electoral success for Democrats. Few would argue that today's split-the-difference Democratic Party hasn't followed the DLC's policy direction over the last 10 years. That means the last 10 years of elections really have been a referendum on whether the DLC's model -- regardless of any moral judgements about it -- actually wins at the polls.

And that's when we get to the real problem with the DLC -- its policies are BOTH morally bankrupt, and politically disastrous. The rise of the DLC within the Democratic Party has coincided almost perfectly with the decline of the Democratic Party's power in American politics -- a decline that took Democrats from seemingly permanent majority status to permanent minority status. In this last election, just think of Democrats' troubles in Ohio as a perfect example of this. Here was a state ravaged by massive job loss due to corporate-written "free" trade deals -- yet Democrats were unable to capitalize on that issue and thus couldn't win the state because the DLC had long ago made sure the party helped pass the very trade policies (NAFTA, China PNTR) that sold out those jobs.

To counter, the DLC holds up Bill Clinton's 1992 win as proof that its policies win elections, but that is so dishonest it's laughable. First and foremost, almost everyone would agree Clinton ran a very un-DLC-like populist campaign for President in 1992, and won far more on the strength of his charisma/personality than any policy platform from a bunch of pencil-pushing geeks at the DLC in Washington, D.C. Secondly, since that 1992 victory -- with the exception of Clinton's 1996 victory over one of the weakest GOP challengers in modern history -- Democrats have been roundly destroyed in national election after national election.

Thus, we are brought back to the bottom line: with the DLC, Democrats get all of the bad policies, and none of the good electoral outcomes -- it is the worst of both worlds.

Why is this the case? Because, above any one issue, Americans don't think Democrats stand for anything. They hear Democrats say they stand up for America's middle class, but then watch as the DLC loudly supports the opposite. For instance, the DLC was one of the pioneers in pushing Social Security privatization - a policy the DLC's Wall Street backers love (and if you don't believe the DLC advocated this, see their position paper trumpeting "personal accounts"). The DLC has pushed "free" trade that sells out American jobs, which the DLC's corporate backers love. And the DLC has pushed wars that send middle class kids off to die for lies, which the DLC's neocon ideologues love.

The DLC attracts undue attention to itself and these awful policies by claiming to speak for Democrats, attacking the Democratic Party, echoing the Republican Party's agenda, and reinforcing dishonest right-wing lies about progressives -- a surefire way to get press attention. What's left is a widespread impression that the Democratic Party deliberately misleads voters about its priorities, cares only about their political advancement, and possesses absolutely no core convictions.

Thankfully, the rise of a new populism within the Democratic Party is challenging the tired, hackneyed suits at the DLC, as is alternate fundraising sources that allows candidates to ignore the fat cats who fund the DLC.

But make no mistake about it -- the Democratic Party is in the throes of a battle for its soul -- a battle that will decide whether Democrats will ever be a majority party again.

On one side, you have the DLC which seeks to remold the Democratic Party into a wholly-owned subsidiary of Corporate America, controlled by a tiny cadre of conservative-leaning elitists in the nation's capital who are desperate to hang onto their power over the Democratic Party apparatus in Washington, D.C. These are the people who are so desperate and conniving, they viciously attacked Howard Dean in 2004 and ruthlessly attack grassroots groups like Moveon.org who, unlike the DLC, actually goes out and does the hard work of trying to WIN election. They are also the same people who are now working overtime to undermine Democrats' opposition to President Bush's extremist economic agenda.

On the other side are progressives who want to see the party go back to what made it successful for decades: a willingness to stand up for America's middle class.

The 2008 presidential candidates would rather there not be this choice, and that's why they are trying to have it both ways, speaking at the DLC conferences, while reassuring progressives they are real Democrats. But ultimately, that won't be possible. Each of them will have to make a choice -- kiss the elitists' ring, sell out to the highest corporate bidder, and be ridiculed on the national stage for standing for nothing other than fat cats and political expediency. Or, actually follow the lead of conviction politicians, ignore the D.C. cocktail party circuit, create a principled McCain-like image, and stand up for the millions of Americans who the DLC and the Beltway crowd have arrogantly alienated for so long.

We've tried the former for many years now, and it has meant loss after loss after loss after loss (the repetition of this disastrous formula kind of makes you wonder whether the current crop of Democrats actually enjoys losing). Personally, I don't like losing and I don't like selling out, so I'm hoping the Democrats reject the DLC model and change course. While it might be a fine life to be a comfortable-in-the-minority elitist in the cushy confines of Washington, D.C. where the consequences of selling out are muted, out here in the real world, the results of Democrats' permanent minority status in national politics have very real and very harsh effects -- and it's time for a change.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/the-democrats-2008-choice_b_4729.html


It's time to drop-kick the DLC through the goal-post of life and move on. We might even start to win elections again!

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." - Thomas Jefferson (1816)

TC
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. elected Dems with DLC affiliations
you know, i keep hearing from various candidate supporters about how their guy IS a DLC member but sorta, kinda, isn't really, you know, i mean he's not exactly a REAL DLC member ... in fact, sometimes the DLC even criticizes him ...

well, maybe it's time for a reassessment ... if these "candidates" believe it's a good thing to belong to the DLC, they should explain why ... or maybe they joined long ago and never formally cancelled their membership ... maybe now's the time to do so ...

who we are as a party and what we believe has been set down squarely on the front burner ... what better time to clarify where everyone stands ...
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. It's DEFINITELY time for a reassessment !
Edited on Sat Aug-12-06 08:51 PM by Totally Committed
who we are as a party and what we believe has been set down squarely on the front burner ... what better time to clarify where everyone stands ...


Let me say this: No candidate... I repeat, NO CANDIDATE, who belongs to the DLC in 2008 will get my vote. I don't care how despised he or she is by them... or how badly they mistreat him or her... or even if they "all but disown" him or her, if they are still on the DLC roster, they are a NON-NEGOTIABLE NO-GO for me.

It is time to take a scalpel to this cancer upon our Party, and not enabling them with my vote is one way I choose to start.

TC
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #23
52. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
29. I liked this part:
the bolding is mine.

<snip>

Moreover, even if you accept Kilgore's lie that the official DLC organization itself has been just some infinitesimally small gnat barely making the supposedly Evil Liberal Colossus twitch, it's clear that DLC-ism has intensely afflicted the Democratic Party for the last 10 to 15 years - and with horrible electoral consequences. That DLC-ism's fundamental tenets preach that Democrats should 1) never frontally challenge moneyed power; 2) unquestioningly embrace Washington's distorted definition of national security "strength" as being a politician willing to indiscriminately bomb/invade foreign lands regardless of how that weakens U.S. security; and 3) deliberately distort the concept of "centrism" to make it mean "well outside the mainstream of American public opinion."

That this DLC-ism is being handily rejected by more and more Democrats at the very same time Democrats are surging in the polls clearly makes the staff at the DLC very frightened. They know people are figuring out that Democrats are making political gains BECAUSE they are finally rejecting DLC-ism, and starting to push a far more populist agenda - and one that is at the actual "center" of American public opinion, not the distorted faux "center" of the Washington Beltway. This agenda is scary to the powers that be because it doesn't rely on the official approval of a bunch of Washington lobbyists, corporate lawyers and unprincipled insiders sitting around a conference table at places like the Washington Court Hotel, the DLC's D.C. offices, or the DLC's highly-touted "national conversations" that are, of course, officially "not open to the public."
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
33. self-delete
Edited on Sat Aug-12-06 10:43 PM by AtomicKitten
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-12-06 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
37. The global corporate agenda is destroying this nation
Organize all the Democratic legislators, candidates and party members willing to call for Hartmann's "radical and rapid return to the values that made American great." Start with Boxer, Feingold, Conyers, Waters, the CBC, anyone will the backbone to stand up (alone) when necessary.

Remove all the duplicitous hacks with corporate brands on their foreheads and dirty money in their bank accounts.

Count the additional thousands of votes of all the GenXers (and others) who don't vote at all now because they think there is only one corporate party and not even "Anybody but Bush" can get them in the voting booth.


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boolean Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 12:49 AM
Response to Original message
38. The DLC is the cancer of the Democratic party
Until the DLC goes, Democrats will continue to lose. They are a cancer and they need to be removed. Ousting Lieberman was a good first step.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 01:30 AM
Response to Original message
40. DLCers are not moderates, THEY ARE TRAITORS.
Edited on Sun Aug-13-06 01:31 AM by Odin2005
They are conservatives who call themselves moderates. They have no place in our party. This is not ideological puritanism, I have no problem with REAL moderates. The DLC are FAKE moderates who wish to whore us to the corporatists.

DOWN WITH THE DLC!!!
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
43. This is kinda interesting:
...Since PPI’s inception in 1989, founders Will Marshall and Al From have advocated for a “third way” in the political debate that consists of free market principles that largely echo the right wing platform, which makes its organizational name choice misleading. Indeed, one of its five strategies includes “confronting global disorder by building enduring new international structures of economic and political freedom.” (4)

What is the “Third Way”? The core principles of the “third way movement” are set forth in the DLC/PPI’s The New Progressive Declaration: A Political Philosophy for the Information Age. As the New Democrats explain, the enduring progressive values must be adapted to the information age. Which translates into policy recommendations that are very close to the compassionate conservatism articulated by candidate George W. Bush: uncompromising support for free market and free trade economics, a strong military with a global presence, an end to the politics of entitlement, rejection of affirmative action, and an embrace of competitive enterprise while at the same time rejecting a key role for government in development policy. Expressing the opinion of many progressive Democrats, Robert Kuttner, editor of the American Prospect, wrote that the political approach of the PPI and the DLC amounts to “splitting the difference with a Republican administration.” ...

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1534

"...Aside from those on the DLC’s leadership team, the major forces of the New Democrat movement are 74 House members and 20 senators who compose the New Democrat Coalitions in Congress. According to the DLC, “Together, they are among the most influential forces in the United States Congress.” In the House, the coalition’s leaders are its three co-chairs, representatives Jim Davis (Fla.), Ron Kind (Wis.), and Adam Smith (Wash.), as well as representatives Jim Moran, Cal Dooley, Susan Davis, Harold Ford, Jane Harman, Darlene Hooley, and Baron Hill.

According to the DLC, “Senators Evan Bayh (IN), Bob Graham (FL), Mary Landrieu (LA), Joe Lieberman (CT) and Blanche Lincoln (AR) founded the Senate New Democrat Coalition (SNDC) in the spring of 2000 to provide a unified voice in the U.S. Senate for progressive ideas, mainstream values, and innovative, market-based policy solutions.” Other members of the SNDC (as of December 2000)--which the DLC calls “the strongest and most unified Democratic group in the Senate”--are John Breaux (La.), Jean Carnahan (Mo.), Tom Carper (Del.), Ben Nelson (Neb.), Bill Nelson (Fla.) and Debbie Stabenow (Mich.)...."

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1463
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
47. THREAD SUMMARY:
the OP asked a very legitimate question and invited supporters and opponents of the DLC to provide their opinions ...

unfortunately, only those opposing the DLC did so ... i had hoped to hear from some of the DLC supporters about whether they believed "we could work it out" or whether the party would be better off with a "purge" regardless of which side got purged ...

i guess i'll either have to make up my mind on this issue with advice only from one side or perhaps i'll try raising this question again ...

Sirota has made a very convincing case that the DLC is 100% evil and that they are nothing more than a corporate infiltration of the Democratic Party ... i was hoping to hear a meaningful rebuttal ... a rebuttal that goes beyond the kind of juvenile drivel that appeared above by one of the responders ... if you have a case to make, then make it ... if all you have to offer are personal attacks, don't waste everyone's time ...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-13-06 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #48
54. Deleted message
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. Oh puhleeze, he's been shoveling this shit all along. He has no argument
only furnished, and indefensible, talking points.

Ignore is your friend, (I take it off every 4 or 5 months just to be sure, he hasn't disappointed yet) :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. He's a damned broken record, isn't he?
I've only been around for a few months but I haven't seen the guy actually make an argument yet.
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boolean Donating Member (992 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Don't bet on it
Do a search of how many times he has described progressives as "far left". Bill O'Reilly doesn't hold a candle to him.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Deleted message
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. i feel compelled to thank you for this ...
not for what you wrote ... but for typing all those dots ... my latest royalty check just came in the mail today ...

how cool is that .................. ???
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #54
70. Anything more would be wasted on the anti-DLCers...
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #70
105. You mean the majority of the party
Since most Dems are now rejecting the right-wing approach.

Face it, ThugLife, you CAN'T look down on the majority.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #47
57. It could be there *isn't* an actual defense from the pro-DLC side..?!
Just like the RW, it appears that all the DLC really has is attacks, both nationally (we liberals support the terrorists), and in forums (plenty of evidence of that).

It was clear to many of us during the 2004 campaign that there was no compromising and no living with it. It's a matter of getting rid of the DLC, and sending them back to their origins.

I know that many years ago, I and several others quit being activists in the Dem party, and comparing notes a few years ago, we realized that this happened at the same time and in the same way. We started realizing that it was at the time the DLC started gaining power locally, and made the rest of us feel so unwanted and unneeded that we had little choice but to leave. If only we had known at the time what was happening!

Now that we understand, and are working to regain the party, the ugliness has stepped up, and it's clear what is happening. Corporatism, like the neocons, won't give up without an ugly fight, but some of us are determined to get our country back.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Indeed, and when you rub their faces in that fact...
Notice when our resident DLC apologist seems to shut the fuck up: When he's been called on his BS, and so he launches into some smear that mysteriously does not ever get deleted as per the rules for ad hominem attacks. :shrug:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #59
69. You're right on target. Interesting how they don't realize that
their predictable combativeness has the effect of a neon sign blinking over their heads "DLC" "DLC" "DLC" (read: corporatist apologist)

And, just like the RW, the rules never apply to them--only to others.

Yes, verrrrrrrrry interesting.....
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #57
71. Or it could be that there's no reason to even pretend
that intelligence will fetch the anti-DLC boboes.
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #71
75. Case in point. That neon sign is blinking.....
bye now...there's a handy little button for these occasions...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. Deleted message
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #76
82. yeah the more people you piss off and get to ignore you
the less that you'll be called a liar, or alerted on your rule violations.

GENIUS!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #82
85. Deleted message
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #47
109. Problem is that even though the DLC is in massive decline
and can't get anyone elected anymore, they believe they are the natural and unchallengeable leadership of the party and that they are above actually having to justify themselves to anyone.
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 01:01 AM
Response to Original message
49. So we're all ok with losing elections in 06, 08, 10....
For quite a few years to come if it means we can shut down the DLC???! Really??!?

Just sayin' folks....
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Alternately
we can support the DLC and see how the DNC becomes the GOP.

For the sake of "winning" we not only lose but close off any possibility for future hope by elminating any opposition to the neolib/neocon corp monster.

Just saying.

And while I'm saying it, it's not as if the DLC has provided us with many victories, eh?
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #49
68. ooooops, misread the message..... sorry!
Edited on Mon Aug-14-06 07:15 PM by bobbolink
:blush:
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #68
77. has it?
how so?

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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. sorry, you are right... I misread it...
I guess I read through it too quickly... I thought it was saying how we need the DLC to win elections.

my bad...

Thanks for pointing it out, and politely, also... :hi:
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #49
106. The DLC DOESN'T win elections anymore. 2000, 2002 and 2004 have proved
that.

The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again while hoping for a different result.

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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
51. Its the bogeyman Litmus-test Liberals use...
To explain their inability to gain a majority foothold in the Democratic Party...

Followed by the notion that every election in which a Democrat loses, either to a Republican or to another unfavored Democrat is the result of fraud...(a tactic which of course dilutes the believability of actual instances of fraud such as Florida 2000)

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #51
65. well, okaaaaaay
i'm listening ...

address some of the criticisms though ... for example, and if this isn't accurate, please explain, it seems like the published position on the DLC's website is not just pro-Iraq War, it actually is divisively critical of people who disagree with them ... that doesn't seem very constructive, does it? it certainly does nothing for party unity ...

and what about all this talk about corporatism? is it fair to say that the DLC aggressively pushes for NAFTA and CAFTA and other so called "free" trade agreements? and if so, how do we resolve deep differences within the party on this globalization / outsourcing of jobs business?

what i'm really asking about is what should be done over our deep divide within the party on some of the most critical issues? do you believe there is no divide? or do you believe there is a divide and it should just be fought out in the primaries? should we try to do a better job getting the issues out on the table and trying to work out compromises? or do you believe a purge is necessary and whichever side prevails should remain?

regardless of what approach is taken, it seems to me the status quo is not working very well ... if it were, you wouldn't be criticizing the DLC bashers and they wouldn't be criticizing the DLC ... my take is that we should either agree to "fight it out" or we should start finding some ways to "work it out" ... the status quo seems like a loser in the long run ... we might win this year but i don't see any great Democratic Party mandate coming from it ... i mean, does anyone really believe if we do great in November that will indicate we have a lock on '08? ... i sure don't ...

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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. It isn't just NAFTA/CAFTA
The very basis of the DLC is neoliberal economics.

When they talk about healthcare or any number of programs that supposedly distance the DNC from the GOP, they are careful not to mention how they would go about putting their iniatives in practice. To know this one must actually study the DLC's web in depth ... in order to see that when they want universal healthcare they want it on the basis of a free-market cooperation of pharma, AMA and insurance.

IOW, precisely what the GOP wants - but they actually have the temerity to HIDE it behind progressive-sounding rhetoric.

Time and time again they push what is virtually the GOP agenda - just changing the framing, the rhetoric, to appeal to the "left". It's fvcking cynical and it makes me angry as hell.

Make no mistake about it - when the Bradleys and Olins see fit to finance anyone it is because they are part of the most radical extreme rightwing. And they finance the DLC.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #67
86. Beware of Democrats selling "Affordable HealthCare".
Edited on Mon Aug-14-06 08:06 PM by bvar22
As for the OP, my sig line says it all!


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #65
74. My point is...
Is that the DLC is what the Tri-Lateral commission used to represent. A sort of semi-secret cabal with nefarious purposes. In this case some Soviet style infiltration by a sector of the party intent on destroying it from within...

It has become a very useful bogeyman for those critical of moderates or centrists in the party to explain why they don't seem to be making much headway getting a majority of the party to agree with them. Because there are a large number of DLC lawmakers, and because the DLC is well funded, and because some of the sources of that funding are less than desirable (by quite a bit), its critics can just throw up their hands and say "look what we are up against, the deck is stacked against progressives." So the focus becomes demonizing the DLC and its members, rather than organizing themselves.


The problem with this of course, is that there is no credible explanation or evidence to show that a policy paper on the PPI website somehow translates into action by Democrats. Democrats that hold views contrary to what their critics would approve of, would hold those views whether the DLC was there or not. There is no mechanism by which the DLC somehow exerts its power over its members. I don't know how many times I have had to explain the DLC can't even legally give money to candidates. The answer to that is they are somehow directing money from corporate donors to these candidates. No proof is ever offered. It is just assumed since the DLC is evil it must be occurring. Of course, corporate PACS are free to give money to candidates without going through the DLC.

So it is assumed because a person is a member of the DLC that they automoatically agree with every position paper published by them, ignoring that often times positions papers will be published which take opposite views of the same topic.

And when it is pointed out the large number of times DLC members vote contrary to what is assumed are DLC positions, their independance by critics is never acknowledged. When a Hillary Clinton votes against CAFTA, or when Eliot Spitzer files another lawsuit against a large New York corporation, or when a Byron Dorgan authors a book critical of corporate power, always some explanation is given which still has conspiratorial undertones..

They are doing it because their constituents are not quite ready to accept DLC dogma yet, or are doing it to maintain political viability...or some other reason. Never just the simple fact that DLC members hold a wide variety of views on many topics, many time at odds with the DLC.

So if members do not always agree with the DLC why are they members? Well there are any number of reasons. I'm a member of Greenpeace, but I don't agree with everything they do. I agree with the overarching goal of a healthy environmental stewardship of the planet. Similarly, most of what the DLC is about is advocating reorienting the way Democrats present traditional Democratic positions to the electorate such as abortion, the environment, energy and gun control, the economy etc. Many Democrats view this as a way to get the upper hand on Republicans in debates where we haven't fared too well in the past.

For many moderate or conservative members the economic positions are appealing. Many in our party do not see a radical reorienting of our economic system ever occurring, so what is the point of making corporate America the enemy of the Democratic Party. And so they reject harshly populist anti-corporate rhetoric, and advocate positions which in their view, will insure the business climate is healthy. And no doubt a great many are using their membership to position themselves with their constituents or potential constituents. If one is viewed as a flaming Liberal, DLC membership can go some way toward reorienting that image.

But as is obvious, if a member does not agree with a DLC position, there is no risk in rejecting it.

I do not always agree with the DLC. I think they have some great ideas on how to reposition the debate on many issues on turf more favorable to Democrats. I am less enthusiastic about some of their economic ideas, though I do agree it is counter productive to make corporate America the permanent enemy of our party. Where I disagree with them most is in their public criticism of other Democrats. I do not associate myself with their criticisms of Howard Dean for example, and I wish Al From was not the public spokesman for the organization.

So the bottom line is, if you disagree with the views of moderate or centrist Democrats that is fine, just don't lean on the DLC crutch as an overarching explanantion for the woes of the progressive wing of the party. There is a progressive analog to the DLC called the PDA. Yet even the most liberal members of this board rarely talk about them. They have come out with no position papers analogous to the DLC that I have seen. Instead of blaming everything on a phantom DLC cabal, organize a real progressive cabal.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #74
93. thanks for the only civil response with your POV ...
first, thanks ... that was a thoughtful and excellent response and i intend to give it some serious consideration even after this thread disappears ... the whole point of this thread was to have a civil discussion of a contentious issue ... yours was one of the few posts that respected that purpose ...

second, outside my response to you but as an aside to all the attack the OP jackasses, get a clue ... if you go back for some significant period of time, contrary to the abusive crap i've listened to from a few misguided souls in this thread, i HAVE NOT BEEN AN ATTACKER OF THE DLC ... my position for a very long time now, maybe 6 months, maybe a year, whatever, has been to push for party unity ... go look at the last bunch of months of "we hate the DLC threads" and see if you find welshTerrier2 piling on ... you won't ... i'm not there because i've been pushing for a change in the party's dynamic ... but too many attacking assholes are too stupid and shallow to look before they insult ... well, if this gets deleted for pointing out the truth, i guess that's the way it goes ...

i have written over and over and over again that if we don't find party unity, we are going nowhere ... don't whine about ... don't explain my "hidden agenda" ... go read what the fuck i wrote ... the only thing worse than an asshole is an ignorant asshole ... go get your damned facts straight before you attack people ...

now, as to your post, SaveElmer, again, i thought it was an excellent response ... i have some statements and some questions ... hopefully, the mods will leave this here so you can see my response ...

let me see if i get some of your main points ... let me know if i've misunderstood them ...

right off the bat, i wasn't clear whether you were being serious or sarcastic with your reference to the tri-lateral commission ... do you see the DLC as an infiltrating cabal? we're not talking about your bogeyman point here; we're talking about the primary intent of the DLC leadership ... is that how you see it?

either way, i understand one of your main points to be that regardless of what mission the DLC has, Democrats who disagree with them on policy should deal with that disagreement by organizing and gaining political power by competing in primaries and funding candidates opposed to DLC policies ... is that about right? in other words, one of your objections is merely complaining about the DLC instead of "beating them" ... yes? no?

another key point i understood you to make was that the elected Democrats are independent of the DLC and that it doesn't matter how much money the DLC has or where it gets its money because it's not being channeled to elected Dems ... the conclusion, then, is that disagreement with the DLC is relatively meaningless; our target should be to either influence incumbent Dems or replace them ... the DLC is an irrelevant target ... is that about the message? if not, please clarify ...

and finally, you made a point about members in any organization do not necessarily adhere to all of the organizations goals ... in other words, we shouldn't criticize anyone merely because of their affiliation ... it's their actual, independent record that matters; not their membership?

how's that? mostly about right? not so good where did i get that stuff? yeah, OK, close enough i guess?

OK ... so here are some responses if i've understood your basic points correctly ... just for my own use, i'll list with shortcut names the 3 main points i cited above: 1. organize to gain power, don't complain about the DLC 2. elected Dems are independent - if we disagree, out issue should be with them, not with the DLC 3. membership does not mean support for the DLC's overall agenda.

the first point about organizing was directly responsive to the primary reason i posted this thread ... it seems to me, there are several available strategies for those who hate the DLC agenda ... one option is to fight the DLC or candidates who support a substantial or critical part of their agenda ... i'm calling that the war option ... we battle for control and to the victor go the spoils ... within that option, there are at least two readily visible sub-options ... one is that the battle only occurs up to the primary; in the general, we support the nominee ... the other is that we are fighting for what we believe in and, if not represented in our own party, we vote third party (like post-primary Lieberman supporters for example)...

a second option, the one i was pushing for quite some time now, is that we look for compromise and we try to be more inclusive ... this is, we try to be a real "big tent" ... this view does not demand that everyone automatically supports the party ... we sit down; we debate; we negotiate; we value unity if we can honestly achieve it; we recognize no compromise is perfect; we decide whether we are unified or we are not ... that's the option i've been pushing for ... i've gotten almost no support ... both sides just keep lobbing missiles back and forth ... hence, this thread ... i'm not sure this can even work anymore ... i thought it was the best approach but it just might be totally naive and not viable ... oh well ... it seemed like a good idea at the time ...

and your counsel on this, if i understood you correctly, is that everyone should just fight it out ... don't use the DLC as a bogeyman ... if you want power, compete for it ... sounds like that's more of the fight school than the negotiate school ... is that about right?

OK ... on to the next point: elected Dems are independent and not bought and sold by the DLC ... truthfully, i'm not sure exactly how to respond to this ... here's my best shot ... i see a party, talking about political strategy now and not values, that is stuck on "triangulation" ... maybe you're right and the decision is made by the votes of our independent representatives ... it does seem to me, though, that the party, to take a single issue, has refused to confront the election fraud issue in a meaningful way ... it seems like the decision for that is made at the top ... and perhaps certain strategic decisions should be made from the top ... we can't have everyone running in different directions and try to earn respect as a political party ... and if Democrats constantly contradicted each other, i think we would be ineffective as well ...

so, some of us have the view that certain positions on certain issues are verboten in the Senate ... it is truly odd to see such divergence between some of the very progressive views in the House and such a narrow range of views in the Senate ... none of this is arguing against your point ... perhaps elected Dems are indeed independent ... but, whether it is DLC domination or the mere coincidence of commonly held views, the greater problem seems to be that many feel either not represented or feel that "political consultants" are making mechanical political calculations and that there is a degree of pressure, whether large or small, to align with their counsel ...

and the next point was about membership not indicating absolute agreement with every aspect of the agenda ... well, on the surface, i certainly agree with that statement ... the concern is that it is not clear to me how much support candidates can receive from the various organizations ... i believe you stated that candidates can't receive direct corporate support ... are you making the case that corporate money in Washington doesn't carry a huge amount of influence? or is this what's call "soft money" ... either way, i can't see how your point about money not going to candidates addresses the issue of corporate influence ... you seemed to separate corporate money going to the DLC from the candidates themselves ... i guess the overriding question i have would be: what is the degree of influence corporations have on the political parties and what are the parties doing to free themselves from this bribe money?

it's certainly true that mere membership does not necessarily fairly define even a single member ... but if the overall framework is that everyone needs money and support and certain concessions, on certain issues only, are required to be "a player", then the whole system is tainted and those who promote it are complicit in its sustenance ...

so, that's about all i have for now ... i'm going to be reading Sirota's "Hostile Takeover" to see exactly what allegations he's making against the DLC ... again, i thank you for your post and i'll keep the points you raised in mind as i'm reading ... that's the best offer i can make ...

one last point i wanted to make ... it's not directly in response to anything you wrote ... it's about this business about competing for power and to the victor go the spoils ... this has been the foundation of my push for party unity ... let's assume, whether it's right or wrong, that the DLC view represented the majority of Democrats ... frankly, i don't think it does but that's irrelevant for this discussion ... and let's say that some percentage, say a minority of 25% (it's obviously much larger) believe the war in Iraq is wrong and that we should leave before the end of the year ... what should happen within the party? the end of year supporters should try to elect candidates, during the primaries only, who support their views (it could be on many issues not just this issue)? and let's say that they lose in the primary ... then what? just "go along"?? ... and then try again in two years? and they still lose ... and then what? just "go along"?? and then what and then what and then what?

therein lies the rub ... the real question is what should minority views in the party do? what's the best system for them and for the party overall? if the answer is "try, lose, just go along", that wears pretty thin after a few election cycles ... if the answer is, as i've seen on the DLC's website by the way, "how dare you compete against an incumbent in the primary", that seems contrary to democracy and representation and the position you've advocated ... to me, that's the most heinous position ... at a minimum, everyone should have a shot ... so, again, how should the party address a persistent minority view?

my answer has been, for some time now, that we have to find a path to unity ... my answer has been that it is absurd to expect unrepresented people to "just go along" and that the party has to aggressively find a way to be genuinely inclusive ... and, btw, it's not just the lefty, extremist McGovernite wing of the party that should be a substantial political concern ... there are tens of millions of non-voters, most of them former Democrats, who are so disgusted with the corruption and the self-serving, insulated political class that they just have given up ... i don't condone that; i also don't condone failing to find a way to talk with them and listen to them and really hear them ... it's stupid politics not too ... when any party takes an "i'm in charge here and this is what i'm going to do" rather than a "what can i do to earn your support", they have no long-term prospects ... it's true if groups inside the party are alienated; it's true for the tens of millions of non-voters ... the idea of competing for power within the party seems like a secondary process to trying to find at least a degree of compromise ...

good talking to you ...

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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. Response...
"right off the bat, i wasn't clear whether you were being serious or sarcastic with your reference to the tri-lateral commission ... do you see the DLC as an infiltrating cabal? we're not talking about your bogeyman point here; we're talking about the primary intent of the DLC leadership ... is that how you see it?"

No, I made the analogy in that this was another organization that was alleged to have secret designs to control of government and economic institutions...which of course turned out to be bogus.

"either way, i understand one of your main points to be that regardless of what mission the DLC has, Democrats who disagree with them on policy should deal with that disagreement by organizing and gaining political power by competing in primaries and funding candidates opposed to DLC policies ... is that about right? in other words, one of your objections is merely complaining about the DLC instead of "beating them" ... yes? no?"

Regardless of what the DLC advocates, it is not the monolithic bogeyman that it is made out to be, and that those who dislike the position of moderates and conservative Democrats use it as an excuse to explain their own lack of success at swaying the majority of the party to their world view. It also hinders those who have convinced themselves that the DLC is the root of all evil from finding common ground with members of the party who may not agree with them all the time.

"and your counsel on this, if i understood you correctly, is that everyone should just fight it out ... don't use the DLC as a bogeyman ... if you want power, compete for it ... sounds like that's more of the fight school than the negotiate school ... is that about right?"

Well I would prefer common ground, which if progressives would let go of the "DLC is evil" meme they might be able to find. If they do and still find themselves in complete disagreement, then organize yourselves and attempt to persuade the rest of the party. Calls for purges everytime someone doesn't vote the way you like is counterproductive in my opinion.


"another key point i understood you to make was that the elected Democrats are independent of the DLC and that it doesn't matter how much money the DLC has or where it gets its money because it's not being channeled to elected Dems ... the conclusion, then, is that disagreement with the DLC is relatively meaningless; our target should be to either influence incumbent Dems or replace them ... the DLC is an irrelevant target ... is that about the message? if not, please clarify ..."

Yes the DLC is an irrelevent target. If you disagree with the DLC, then argue the positions, do not assume every DLC member is in agreement with those positions. And to target someone simply because they are DLC is lazy.

(It is gettin late...so will respond to the rest tomorrow if that is ok)

Thanks!



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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #51
72. Wasn't that steep a descent after all, was it?
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #72
84. Hey did you know you and I are Republican Operatives?
Among other

Check your PM...I don't think we are allowed to post links for these guys
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #84
87. Perhaps we ought to go to another website, one not for Democrats
and whine together about how mean folks are to us here. Maybe I'll cry "I loathe them. I have to keep them off of my ignore list, since they disrupt so much, I can't shake the feeling that it's my duty to call them out. Everyone knows who they are and they still get to stay. sigh. "

No, on second thought, that would be wrong. Best leave such weeping and gnashing ot teeth to the "progressives" amongst us.
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SaveElmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. What's funny about it is...
They moan and whine about how conservative DU is (if you can believe it), but can name just about everyone on DU that doesn't think the DLC is evil incarnate in one post....

Leaving the other 90,000 or so to agree with them...not pure enough I guess!
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Which only demonstrates that the "progressives"
are no more progressive than they are mint-flavored. Nothing dirves them into a rage more than the slightest hint of dissent. Still, I doubt they're going to deport us to "bantustan" anytime soon.

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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #90
97. Dissent is OK, Duplicitous, Divisive & Intellectually Bankrupt is not OK
and nothing "dirves" me into a rage more than a "poorly worded post"... (snicker)

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. Oh I'm sorry is this MrBenchleyUnderground?
Suggestion noted, and filed under LOL.

"..go snivel..." Isn't that something Mr Burns would say?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #100
101. If it were, I'd post something like
""I loathe them. I have to keep them off of my ignore list, since they disrupt so much, I can't shake the feeling that it's my duty to call them out. Everyone knows who they are and they still get to stay. sigh. "

LOL!
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #101
107. Call people out as what?
When are you ever going to stop spreading the lie that all progressive Dems are Green Party/GOP plants/ You've always known you were spreading bullshit when you insinuated that, and you never had anything that remotely resembled proof.

Mo progressive posters on DU have ever stooped to the tactics you use, ThugLife.

And it isn't DISRUPTING anything to start threads. Disruption is when you never actually argue for your position but simply spew abuse. Disruption is using hatred and invective to create a climate of fear and intimidation and by so doing DISCOURAGE people from posting on DU.

None of us have HURT the Democratic party. None of your tactics have helped it. And since you are supporting a right-wing independent candidate in Connecticut against the Democratic Senate nominee, YOU don't get to question anyone else's party loyalty anymore.
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CrushTheDLC Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #100
111. Not anymore it isn't
:)
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
53. DLC has nothing left to sell to their corporate donors.
Twelve years ago, a big donation could buy access to the White House.
What can they sell today?
Lunch with Tom Vilsack?
A breakfast muffin with non-Democrat Lieberman?
It's over for the DLC. Corporations want something in return for their money.

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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #53
98. That's a good point
What do you get these days when a politician decides to join, or is asked to join the DLC?

Certainly not access, so what is the value? The infusions of cash come with an expectation that the newly purchased politician will champion the rights of the donor, over those of the constituents.

So since politicians represent citizens, and corporations are citizens, this is really just "democracy" at "work". As in this is how democracy is undermined by your corporate employer.
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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
55. The DLC has been very successful...
...as one can tell by the way their 'defenders' rant against any Democrat that may question the reason for their existance.

Please remember that the DLC's main priority is to get DLC democrats ("New Democrats) elected to office while smearing other Democrats that may get in their way. They have in the past used the Right's Smear Machine to take care of their opposition. It's no longer Democrats opposing Republicans. It's the 'have mores' against the 'have nots'. It's the DLC using corporate cash to oppose Democrats that refuse to sell out social welfare and adopt corporate welfare.

The DLC is nothing more than a corporate-sponsored 'think tank' that uses the Right's media connections and mountains of cash to influence elections. Every day they become more obvious and more vicious. They no longer need to hide their intentions. Hell...they even have the 'president' of the US on their side. Friends in high places. Bush needs to give Joe a kiss on the other cheek for all his good work.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Q!
:thumbsup:
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Writer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
73. None of the above!
It's a giant, monstrous leviathan with 120 tentacles - run for your lives! :o


:puke: at this thread
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #73
78. best post so far
:thumbsup:


actually, the best post got deleted
:hi: WEL
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #73
80. how silly ...
mr. sirota has made some very critical statements about the DLC ... you have every opportunity to respond in an intelligent manner and raise any objections to any points he made ...

and all you do is vomit ... that's an excellent use of DU's bandwidth ... don't discuss the issues; just vomit ...
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RiffRandell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. Um, SaveElmer responded in an intelligent manner.
Edited on Mon Aug-14-06 07:37 PM by CrabbyPatty
Perhaps that is why you didn't respond to his post.

As far as criticizing people for wasting DU's bandwidth, look in the fucking mirror. All you do is criticize most democrats and corporate America, then claim to want to have a discussion without insults. You know where you stand, just admit it.

Senator Akaka from Hawaii voted "against the war".(I've seen you use the term about dems who "voted for the war"

But he voted for drilling in the Arctic. The environment is probably the most important issue to me right behind the disgusting war.

Let me know when you get a "perfect candidate". I won't hold my breath.

BTW, I am a former CT resident who supports Lamont and my entire family, who still lives there, voted for him.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #83
88. Intelligence is wasted on the anti-DLCers....
Fallow ground doersn't bear fruit, no matter how much effort you waste there.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #83
91. yes, SaveElmer's post is exactly why i posted this thread
sorry i haven't responded soon enough to meet with your approval ... SaveElmer's post is very thoughtful and i've been considering my response ... unlike most of the jerks who chose to do nothing but spew personal attacks, the point of the thread was to have a real discussion about the DLC and the rift in the party ... posts like yours did not respond to the OP ...

all i do is criticize most Democrats? i criticize the ones i disagree with on the war ... are there others? well, maybe one or two ... i criticize Dean for not bringing about the kind of grassroots involvement in decision making that i think is necessary ... and i criticize all Senators, republicans and Democrats alike, who are invisible in their own districts and only appear when it's time to raise money ... i suppose i should strongly support people i strongly disagree with ... i'm just not a lockstep robot like you appear to be ...

and your point about Akaka is what? you think i should automatically support someone only because they voted against the war? you think that's my position? well, it's not ... i frankly don't know much about Akaka but i also am strongly opposed to any abuses by Big Oil including drilling in the Arctic ... btw, Akaka is not doing very well in his primary race ... unfortunately, what little i know suggests his opponent is very conservative ...

and perfect candidates? i've never not voted for a Democratic presidential candidate so i guess your point about "perfect candidates" is just a bunch of abusive bullshit ... or was one of them perfect?
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RiffRandell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Same shit, different day.
Edited on Mon Aug-14-06 09:47 PM by CrabbyPatty
I'm not the lockstep robot, you are. Remember repeating "I don't understand how a vote for a Green (specifically for the race in PA) is the same as voting for a republican."

I'm not taking Lunesta tonight, I take Ambien instead.

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-14-06 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. oh, you're dragging an argument from another thread in here now?
enjoy your meds ... get some rest ...
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #92
108. Corrupt sock puppets working for the GOP are okay with our anti-DLCers
It's only real Democrats that they hate.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #108
110. Nobody on DU is working for the GOP
You know they'll eventually ban you if you don't stop repeating slanders and lies over and over and over again.

Progressives on DU hate the GOP more than YOU do, ThugLife.

You're hurting DU, you're hurting the DLC and YOU'VE LOST THE ARGUEMENT(admittedly, the last was no surprise given that you've never actually PRESENTED an arguement).

Do you have ANY self-respect left, ThugLife?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #110
114. And I say that we all need to back Casey in PA. He's not my hero
But in his case it's worth the necessary compromise. The Green Party in PA IS clearly a sham.
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CrushTheDLC Donating Member (448 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #92
112. Be careful not to drive on that shit!
Just ask Pat Kennedy.
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
113. It's corporate infiltration.
The DLC sees that the GOP has been taken over by the Religious Fundies and that the GOP will have no future. So the corporatists need another party to do their dirty work.
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LUHiWY Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
115. DLC?
I kept wondering what the hey the DLC was...finally checked at Wiki.

Now I get it.

DLC = the ***damned reason we don't actually have at least 2 viable parties in the US.

And the reason the majority of US citizens have been sold down the tubes....all financed by big business donations.

The Clintons need to head back home and shut up? And take ole' Lieberdummy with them....

Done seen the light.



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Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 06:19 AM
Response to Reply #115
116. More Dems need to do what you have done...
Edited on Wed Aug-16-06 06:19 AM by Q
...research the DLC and make up their own minds. You don't have to believe any of the 'anti-DLC' posters. Find out for yourselves how the DLC crept into 'our' party through Clinton and Lieberman and now represent the anti-social welfare, anti-worker, pro-corporation element within the party. They have an unfair advantage because they don't have to campaign or ask voters to contribute cash. Their financing comes from outside of the system through corporate lobbyists.

They're not looking for a balance between social and corporate welfare. They want social welfare REPLACED by corporate welfare...the new democrat's version of trickle down.

They are also the faction of the party that has 'encouraged' other Dems not to make George accountable for his many crimes against our nation.

It's too bad that we can't work together...but the DLC New Democrats have made it clear since the 80s that they want complete control of the party. They want the liberals/progressives to shut up or leave when sharing of power is discussed.

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