My conversation with a Medal of Honor 'Recipient' - a followup

[Stinky The Clown]

At the beginning of August, I posted this.

My conversation with a neighbor who is a Medal of Honor recipient

Way down the thread, someone pointed out that there were no listed MOH winners in my state. Further checking on my part, plus some references provided by others, verified that. I also looked into Bronze and Silver Star recipients, could find no reference to my neighbor, but neither did I find any definitive, complete list of all recipients. If anyone knows of such a listing somewhere, I'd be interested in having a link to it.

At the end of the thread, I mentioned that I would, as the opportunity presented itself, look into what the facts were with respect to my neighbor. I am now able to report a bit more, although nothing definitive.

This past weekend I again had occasion to speak with my neighbor, much in the same way as my originally cited conversation. After the usual small talk, I pointed to his Marine Corps flag and asked him why he flew it. He said that he had, in fact, been involved in the battle at Chosin Reservoir, and is/was(?) a member of the 'Chosin Few'. Seeing that was all he was going to say about it, I remarked that I knew it was an awful thing and that a lot of guys had been decorated as a result of their actions there. His only remark was "Yes. A lot of us were."

I was clear from his tone and his body language that he didn't want to talk a whole lot more about it. I turned the conversation elsewhere, mostly to more small talk. I understand and respect such reticence, having seen it in others, mainly of my father's (WWII) generation. That tendency to reticence included my father, who only ever spoke of a few stories, all humorous.

Still unexplained in this whole thing is why the original source of the story told the story he did. I may eventually get to ask that question, but for now, I'm not inclined to do so. My only assumtion right now as to the 'why' is that it could have been a 'cocktail party' embellishment.

[wakeme2008]

1. Check this list

http://www.army.mil/cmh/mohkor2.htm

:)

[Stinky The Clown]

2. Thanks ... that's a list of MOH winners only

I'm virtually certain he's not an MOH winner. As was pointed out, the MOH citation is so rare and so meaningful that *all* recipients are listed as part of the public record. The Silver and Bronze Star recipients seem to have no such all-inclusive, comprehensive list in the public record .... at least not one I was able to locate. In fact, I recall having found a list of just Army Silver Star winners (with a few Marines included) operated by a private group. On their own website they ask for additional listings and freely admit theirs is incomplete.

[drm604]

3. Was he living in your state when he received the medal?

How up to date are those lists? Do they simply give the state of residence at the time the medal was awarded?

[Stinky The Clown]

4. I've only known him since 1980.

To the best of my knowledge, he's a lifelong resident here.

The MOH, if that's what you're referring to, is a virtual impossibility. Exhaustive lists of MOH recipients do not include his name.

[drm604]

5. Okay, just a thought.

I wanted to make sure you weren't missing the obvious.

[Stinky The Clown]

6. " ........ missing the obvious."

Do you know me? You must! I often do that! :)

[drm604]

9. I hope you didn't take that the wrong way!

I meant nothing personal, I often miss the obvious.

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Absolutely not!

I took it in jest, which is how I assume it was offered.

I took no offense at all .... not in the least! :hi:

[windbreeze]

23. I wonder....IF

it would be possible, he got it under another name....??? people do change their names for one reason or another...and some do it legally...I know, I know, sounds farfetched....but, stranger things have happened...
windbreeze

[The Deacon]

7. My Suggestion:

To those who know, having been at the Chosin Reservoir is enough to qualify you for "Hero." Georgia even has a special license plate for the "Chosin Few."
And I've noticed that a person's obnoxious pushing of his military status is inversely proportional to his amount of time in the danger zone. My brother wouldn't vote for Clinton because he viewed him as a "Draft Dodger." My brother still speaks of "Hanoi Jane" and how she was a traitor to "Vietnam Vets" like him and how the Vietnam Memorial Wall was an insult to veterans because it didn't have any heroic statues. And where did my brother spend his Vietnam Era service? In submarines. In fact, he was on a diesel boat - I doubt if he ever made it west of Mare Island, CA while the Vietnam War was in progress,

[Stinky The Clown]

8. I agree with you completely

[wakeme2008]

10. Vietnam Memorial Wall was an insult to veterans

:grr:

That all I can say about that .....

[Jack from Charlotte]

22. Remember the reaction when it was first proposed...? There was...

a huge outcry that it was, "stark" and since it was black it was too negative. Also, I think the fact that it was designed by an asian woman... contributed toward the negative response of some. And remember the outcry resulted in those statues of the 3 guys being built nearby.

NOW..... there is no more outcry. Nothing is more touching than reading the names on that wall...... at the same time..... you see YOUR OWN REFLECTION in that shiny, black marble.

[OldSiouxWarrior]

11. Many civilians often get military ranks and awards confused.

It is easily possible that the person you heard it from wasn't intending to lie, but simply didn't know the difference between different awards and got confused.

It is a general truth that the more action a veteran has seen, the less they want to talk about it. PTSD can last a lifetime. We have all watched programs on TV were veterans cried after having been taken back to their old battlefields. Interestingly, when veterans on opposite sides of the same battle have been united on those programs, they cried and hugged each other, sharing a bond and sorrow that others can't understand.

BTW - My screenname - OldSiouxWarrior, is to honor my uncle (WWII) and great,great,grandfather (Battle of Little Big Horn - but there were lots of Sioux there.) I served, but saw very little action.

[Stinky The Clown]

12. The person who originally told me the story is .......

......... a light colonel in the Army (second in charge of a local reserve unit).

I, too, served and saw no action.

[OldSiouxWarrior]

13. OUCH. We can rule confusion out.

That hurts when someone you trust is stretching things. You have been very gracious and forthcoming with this entire episode.

[Stinky The Clown]

14. More than gracious or forthcoming ......

.... I've been embarassed.

As I said, the root casue may have been a 'cocktail party' embellishment. It could also have been an honest but mistaken assumption (I don't know the whole conversation that originally occured between my 'source' and my neighbor) based on my neighbor's reticence.

In short ... I have no fucking clue. :)

[Johnyawl]

16. Being a Lt. Col does not automatically make one honest, or honorable..

... I had one Lt.Col that was bat shit crazy. Seriously. Relieved-from-duty-bat-shit-crazy.

It's also quite possibly he heard this from someone else, and excepted it at face value without checking. It's how urban myths are born.

Have you checked for Navy Cross recipients? I'm not sure if there's a definitive list for those either, but that's the next medal down from the MOH, and it too is a very big deal.

On edit: Wikipedia lists five Marines recieving the Navy Cross for actions at Chosin, and one Silver Star recipient who had been initially recommended for the MOH.

It's also quite possible that your neighbor saw action at Chosin, but was decorated for valor in a later battle. In which case, especially if it's a Silver Star, it'll be hard to find.

Have you ever been invited inside his house? If I had a decoration for valor, I wouldn't be walking around the neighborhood bragging about it, BUT I would have the citation framed and hanging somewhere in the house.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. I shoud have included that in my OP .......

...... yes, I did look into the Navy Cross. No definitive lists for that either. In fact, the only definitive list I found was for the MOH - and that exists at several sites, not all of them official government sites.

As to the source, I chalk it up to innocent talking .... I have no reason to distrust the guy and am more than willing to give him every benefit of the doubt.

I've been much harder on myself through this whole thing. While he told the story to me and I accepted it at face value, I'm the one who posted here without checking into it.

For what its worth, this is the biggest (can't speak to accuracy) list of Korean War Silver Star recipients I was able to find. Note their disclaimer in the first paragraph.

Korean War Silver Star Recipients - a partial listing

The Korean War Silver Star recipients found on this page of the KWE are by no means the full roster of recipients of the award. The listing was compiled by searching the internet for names and citations and relying on printed resources and submissions to the KWE. It is a predominantly Army listing, but KWE is trying to locate the names of the Silver Star recipients from other branches of service. (Everyone is invited to help.)

They go on to name a place and person where one can do research.

[5thGenDemocrat]

18. Wikipedia has a list of Navy Cross recipients

As always with Wiki, take it with a grain of salt -- but perhaps your neighbor's name is on there.
John
The late father of my friend Annie, Capt. (later Lt Col) John GW Finke, was awarded a Distinguished Service Cross for gallantry above and beyond the call of duty during the Rohn River crossing in November 1944. The DSC is the Army equivalent of the Navy Cross and is mighty darned rare -- if I remember right, less than 2000 were awarded by the US Army in all of World War II.
Capt. Finke, commanding Co E, 16th Inf Regt, 1st Inf Division, was also one of the first two American officers onto Omaha Beach on June 6, 1944 (along with Capt. Wozenski, commanding Co F). I've spent quite a bit of time working on his biography -- almost none of which Annie knew anything about -- other than he was a "war hero" (she was still a toddler during WWII).
I understand your neighbor not wanting to talk about his experience. Most of what I've learned about Capt Finke comes from vague stories from Annie, a couple of books on regimental and divisional history and lots of hours on the internet. His story is a doozy, but he never told it -- not even to Cornelius Ryan (who he thought was a jerk).

[Stinky The Clown]

19. Damn ... wiki's down right now

I'll try it later

[5thGenDemocrat]

20. One correction on my above post

Capt Finke commanded Co F and Capt Wozenski led Co E. A stupid mistake and I don't know why I made it.
John
Knows better.

[rockymountaindem]

21. Have you tried the Wikipedia-based list?

I know that's not always accurate, but it could provide a good starting point to track down the answer to your question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Medal_of_Honor_recipients