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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 10:47 AM
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Why the Nazi Analogy Is on the Rise
Appeasement of terrorists is the specter of the day, but it's bad for debate in a democracy


A well-known rule of Internet discourse is Godwin's law, which states that, as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches inevitability.

Let me propose Nyhan's corollary: As a foreign policy debate with conservatives grows longer, the probability of a comparison with the appeasement of Nazis or Hitler approaches inevitability.

The Bush Administration has launched its latest PR offensive to boost support for the increasingly unpopular war in Iraq. But the rhetoric is familiar: an attempt to raise the specter of appeasement, starting with Donald Rumsfeld's speech to the American Legion Tuesday, in which he quoted Sen. William Borah saying "Lord, if only I had talked to Hitler, all of this might have been avoided!" after hearing of Germany's invasion of Poland in 1939. (Meanwhile, Rumsfeld barely mentioned Iraq until the last 500 words of the speech.) And today, in his speech to the Legion, President Bush described Islamic terrorists as the "successors to Fascists, to Nazis, to Communists, and other totalitarians of the 20th century."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1515951,00.html?cnn=yes
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 10:53 AM
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1. William Edgar Borah: A member of the Republican National Committee ...
... from 1908 to 1912 - More

Republicans - they were wrong then, they're wrong now.
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chat_noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Bush cabal/Geoering message
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captcorajus Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 11:01 AM
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2. Well as the saying goes
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean someone isn't out to get you.

This idea of eye rolling when someone compares Bush to Hitler is more propaganda designed to deflect from the actual issues. To be as blunt as possible, the Neo-cons are drawing directly from the Nazi play book to further their agenda, and to underscore my point, here are some of my favorite "Nazi" quotes:

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials


"Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death."
~ Adolf Hitler


"The great masses of people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one. Especially if it is repeated over and over."
~ Adolph Hitler


"The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth becomes the greatest enemy of the state."
~ Dr. Joseph M. Goebbels - Hitler's propaganda minister

So when I say that George W Bush's administration are as dangerous as Adolf Hitler's Nazi's I am speaking as a student of history, not as some "liberal nut job" as the O'Riley's of the world would suggest.

Dave
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IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. At least the Nazis were honest about their lying. n/m
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calimary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. THANK YOU!!! And I was looking for the quote about how a big lie
is far easier than a small one for people to swallow.

Welcome to DU! Thanks for posting these!

They, and who said 'em, should be uppermost in everyone's minds.

:thumbsup:
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
3. I said the same thing to my family this morning.
I figure this comparison will back fire big time on Cheney.

As an aside, this incident led to a nice history lesson for my children as I explained that members of the American Legion do not have to be veterans and covered their role in raiding train yards and beating the real WWI vets when the Vets were riding the rails to get to Washington for the Bonus March.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. "successors to Fascists, to Nazis etc"
He said " President Bush tells a veterans group Thursday that the United States is in a struggle against a single ideological movement that opposes freedom."
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/31/bush.terrorism/index.html

The idealogical movement being the Neocons. The the struggle is actually between the USA and Bushco.
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RangerSmith Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-01-06 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
8. The Nazi analogy
is on the rise mainly because "groups" need to attach the most knee jerk causing labels possible on groups they despise.

It helps ramp up and justify the hate among the faithful.

It's what "Hitllery" and all that other bullshit the right threw out was all about and is still all about today.

Sorry, I don't care who you hate, assigning the term Nazi to them only attempts to diminish how evil the real Nazis were, IMHO. If you think these clowns are even close, please remove yourself from the political process cause you are truly clueless.

Just call 'em assholes and everybody will know who you're talking about.

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captcorajus Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-03-06 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Oh I understand how evil they were
Edited on Sun Sep-03-06 09:25 AM by captcorajus
But what you should understand is that it didn't start out that way. It grew to what it was, the process took on a life of its own, and eventually became the machine that put 10 million people to death.

This is why historical context is important. Because, by looking back we can see that, "this leads to this, and if you do this than this is the end result..."

Are the Neo-cons as "evil" as the Nazis were? The answer is, "not yet", and I would prefer that it not get to that level! Here, let me put it in context for you with another quote. Its a long one, and its from Nicholas Meyer's book, "They Thought They Were Free", and is from an interview with a prominent German Citizen who was there for the process. this is kind of long, but I recommend you read the entire thing....

THEY THOUGHT THEY WERE FREE

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933,between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know it doesn't make people close to their government to be told that this is a people's government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing to do with knowing one is governing.

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the universe was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was "expected to" participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one's energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time."

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. "One had no time to think. There was so much going on." "Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your "little men", your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about - we were decent people - and kept us so busy with continuous changes and "crises" and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the "national enemies", without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice - "Resist the beginnings" and "consider the end." But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have changed here before they went as far as they did; they didn't, but they might have. And everyone counts on that might.

"Your "little men," your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing: and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something - but then it was too late."

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, "everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist."

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to – to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked – if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in "43" had come immediately after the "German Firm" stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in "33". But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying "Jew swine," collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in – your nation, your people – is not the world you were in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in Germany, could not have imagined.

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done ( for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.

"What then? You must then shoot yourself. A few did. Or "adjust" your principles. Many tried, and some, I suppose, succeeded; not I, however. Or learn to live the rest of your life with your shame. This last is the nearest there is, under the circumstances, to heroism: shame. Many Germans became this poor kind of hero, many more, I think, than the world knows or cares to know."

I said nothing. I thought of nothing to say.

"I can tell you," my colleague went on, "of a man in Leipzig, a judge. He was not a Nazi, except nominally, but he certainly wasn't an anti-Nazi. He was just – a judge. In "42" or "43", early "43", I think it was, a Jew was tried before him in a case involving, but only incidentally, relations with an "Aryan" woman. This was "race injury", something the Party was especially anxious to punish. In the case a bar, however, the judge had the power to convict the man of a "nonracial" offense and send him to an ordinary prison for a very long term, thus saving him from Party "processing" which would have meant concentration camp or, more probably, deportation and death. But the man was innocent of the "nonracial" charge, in the judge's opinion, and so, as an honorable judge, he acquitted him. Of course, the Party seized the Jew as soon as he left the courtroom.
"
"And the judge?"

"Yes, the judge. He could not get the case off his conscience – a case, mind you, in which he had acquitted an innocent man. He thought that he should have convicted him and saved him from the Party, but how could he have convicted an innocent man? The thing preyed on him more and more, and he had to talk about it, first to his family, then to his friends, and then to acquaintances. (That's how I heard about it.) After the "44" Putsch they arrested him. After that, I don't know."

I said nothing.

"Once the war began," my colleague continued, "resistance, protest, criticism, complaint, all carried with them a multiplied likelihood of the greatest punishment. Mere lack of enthusiasm, or failure to show it in public, was "defeatism." You assumed that there were lists of those who would be "dealt with" later, after the victory. Goebbels was very clever here, too. He continually promised a "victory orgy" to "take care of" those who thought that their "treasonable attitude" had escaped notice. And he meant it; that was not just propaganda. And that was enough to put an end to all uncertainty.


The advantage that we have over this poor gentleman is "hindsight." We can look back, and realize that we are "in the process" by the parallels. The question then becomes, "How do we stop it?"
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