Ever heard the word "Dolchstosslegende?"

[Sparkly]

From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolchstosslegende

The Dolchstosslegende (German: Dolchstoßlegende, often translated into English as "stab-in-the-back legend") refers to a social mythos and persecution-propaganda theory popular in Germany in the period after World War I through World War II. It attributed Germany's defeat to a number of domestic factors instead of failed militarist geostrategy. Most notably, the theory proclaimed that the public had failed to respond to its "patriotic calling" at the most crucial of times and some had even intentionally "sabotaged the war effort."

Der Dolchstoss is cited as an important factor in Adolf Hitler's later rise to power, as the Nazi Party grew its original political base largely from embittered WWI veterans, and those who were sympathetic to the Dolchstoss interpretation of Germany's then-recent history.

Ring any bells? (Think post-Vietnam...)

There are certainly differences -- the "we could have won if it weren't for the protests" rhetoric, and its followers, weren't primarily veterans; and many veterans, as we know, were in fact protestors. It's grown, by design and propaganda (revisionist history), as part of a rightwing machine preaching the same nationalism, anger at an unpatriotic "enemy within," and zealous adherence to a "leader" who taps into all that...

Are there parallels here, or not?

[acmavm]

1. There are parallels between the bush** administration and every

evil and corrupt government ever to run and country to ruin. The decadence of the declining Roman Empire, any of a number of corrupt and insane monarchs all over the globe, the nutsoid suppressive and religiously whacked government of Oliver Cromwell, the government of the old U.S.S.R., the Italian facist government of Mussolini, Adolph Hitlers Nazi party, whatever. These guys (the BFEE) have enough evil to cover it all.

[pat_k]

3. Tragically, in failing to demand Impeachment, the Dems in Congress. . . .

. . .are acting as the appeasers.

They know Bush has committed war crimes.

They know the executive branch terrorized the nation into war with threats of mushroom clouds.

They know Bush is ruling by signing statement.

They know that Bush's exercise of unitary authoritarian power to commit crimes against our constitutional democracy IS Fascism -- and yet, they run the other way whenever the word "Impeachment" is uttered.

[Monk06]

2. There was an article posted here recently on the Dolchstosslegende

phenomenon and its use as propaganda during the
Cold War up to the present.

It is not a question of parallels it has been
the lynch pin of the military industrial complex
since the mid fifties.

Fear is hard wired into the human psyche. It over
rides all other emotions. Only cold dispassionate
reason can defeat it.

[REP]

13. "Stabbed in The Back!" - Harper's July 2006

http://harpers.org/StabbedInTheBack.html

[no_hypocrisy]

4. If memory serves, it was Kaiser Wilhelm of Germany who

had this complex pretty bad. He had a lame, withered, and useless arm of which he was ashamed. He was prone to tantrums and outbursts. He felt inferior to his cousins who were reigning monarchs throughout Europe including King George of England and the Tsarina Alexandra of Russia, not to mention having issues with his grandmother, Queen Victoria. Wilhelm felt it necessary to build up the German Navy to keep abreast with the English empire and to grab as much of the African continent that he could for colonies before England, France, and Belgium got them all. It didn't take much convincing for him to jump into the fracas in August of 1917 when a Bosnia anarchist assassinated the heir to the Austrio-Hungarian thrown. A war meant a justified landgrab for his country as well as expected glory and resolution of the persecution complex.

[tocqueville]

6. I think you mix it up, see post #5

the Kaiser was hold for responsible.

[nealmhughes]

11. Looking back on ole' Willie,

he was pretty good at one thing that got destroyed twice in his life time: the German High Seas Krieg Marine. It was his pride and joy. He didn't care much for Bismark, of course, preferring anyone but an old Prussian who had taken care of Austria for him forever when he was a boy... He actually had as much a right to a high seas fleet as did the Netherlands, France, the US, Russia (what was left of it after the Japanese got finished in 1905) and Japan and the UK had.
Looking back, how in the world did the Germans give Austria that "blank check" for revanche against Serbia? What in the world did Germany care about Serbia or Austria, for that matter, as long as the German economy was booming and "Made in Germany" meant something people looked on with pride then as they do now?
I am amazed at how intelligent Otto von Hapsburg is given the fact of his parentage: Hapsburg and Savoy. Had Austria-Hungary just given up on the idea of empire, there would be Hungarian ships on the Adriadic shore now...
Russia would be a constitutional monarchy or a liberal democracy and all the BS resulting from nationalism since the Versailles Treaties would be over now, since Austria would have defeated Serbia and returned to status quo ante bellum...

[tocqueville]

5. it was Eric Ludendorff, the German Rumsfeld

Russia withdrew from the war in 1917 and Ludendorff participated in the meetings held between German and the new Bolshevik leadership. After much deliberation, the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk was signed in March 1918. That same year, as commander-in-chief on the Western Front, Ludendorff planned and organized Germany's final offensive, known as Operation Michael. This final push to win the war fell short and as the German war effort collapsed, Ludendorff's tenure of war-time leadership ended. On September 29, the Prussian kingship assumed its pre-war authority, which lasted until Kaiser Wilhelm II's abdication. Ludendorff fled Germany for Sweden.


Reflections on the war, a look to the future

In exile, he wrote numerous books and articles about the German military's conduct of the war while forming the foundation for the Dolchstoßlegende, which he was also largely responsible for. Ludendorff was convinced that Germany had fought a defensive war and in his opinion, Kaiser Wilhelm II had failed to organize a proper counter-propaganda campaign or provide efficient leadership.

Ludendorff was also extremely suspicous of the Socialist Democrats and leftists, who appeared to sell out Germany through the Versailles Treaty. Ludendorff also claimed that he paid close attention to the business element (especially the Jews), and saw them turn their backs on the war effort by letting profit dictate production and financing rather than patriotism. Again focusing on the left, Ludendorff was appalled by the strikes that took place towards the end of the war and saw the homefront collapse before the front, with the former poisoning the morale of the soldier on temporary leave. Most importantly, Ludendorff felt that the German people as a whole had underestimated what was at stake in the war: he was convinced the Entente had started the war and was determined to dismantle Germany completely. In what has proven to be somewhat prophetic, Ludendorff wrote:

By the Revolution the Germans have made themselves pariahs among the nations, incapable of winning allies, helots in the service of foreigners and foreign capital, and deprived of all self-respect. In twenty years' time, the German people will curse the parties who now boast of having made the Revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Ludendorff

[no_hypocrisy]

9. Point taken. Thank you. n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

7. Are there parallels? Yes.

The old 'lberal/conservative' paradigm is becoming increasingly 'quaint' (to borrow a phrase).

The Republican Party of yore has been taken over by a group of groups, each aching for a form of totalitarianism that, in my personal view, most mirrors fascism. Whether they're actually following anyone's playbook is open to debate. It is as likely that they're making it up as they go. The similarity to older 'playbooks' simply being the result of watching yet another totalitarian government solidify its power in real time.

Rummy, in his infamous speech of a few days ago, aluded to the government of Neville Chamberlain. Well, ol' Neville was later called an appeaser and then a sympathizer. And he had more than a few kindred spirits in this country - mostly Republicans.

The notion of a fascist America is not such a strech for me to accept. Not by way of endorsement, but by way of alarm. This country is fertile ground for ripening of the seeds of fascism planted back then, and now being brought to fruition by the Neocons. And one need only consider this: the Neocons could have chosen either the democratic or Republican party. The Scoop Jackson wing, back in the 60s, was the progenitor of today's Neocons.

The whole movement gathered steam starting in the 94 sweep of Newt's gang. What we're seeing today could well be that final consolidation of power. But today might also be the end of the movement. The last flailing but remarkably strong push of desperation to save their day.

Our country is, indeed, on the verge of real, actual, fascism. And I'm not so sure it can be stopped. Slowed? yes, to be sure. Stopped? I'm honestly not sure.

[leveymg]

8. MIA/POW myth similar

There are some wingnuts who believe that there are STILL American POWs being held in secret camps by the Vietnamese, the Russians, and the Chinese.

Then there are those Congresscritters who swear that Russian trucks hauled Saddam's WMDs across the desert to Iran. :eyes:

[PurityOfEssence]

10. American conservatives are to Vietnam what Nazis were to World War 1

Sadly, it would have been better had the Armistice not held; the Germans were broken after the Meuse-Argonne offensive, and the Allies had over a thousand tanks and newly mechanized troops that would have swept into Germany and nullified any doubt about Germany's defeat. The Germans were truly whipped at this point, but by a negotiated truce, it was easily distorted as a betrayal of a still victorious army.

Reactionary Germans seethed at this slight, and since they hadn't been really trounced on the field of battle (well, they were in the fall of 1918, but it wasn't a rout) the asshole conservatives skewed it as a betrayal from within. It's exactly the same dynamic with American conservatives and Vietnam. Commie layabouts and politicians cheated them from the victory their superiority would secure. History really does repeat itself. The same xenophobia and selfishness of the privileged is in play today: Vietnam was a failure because sub-human liberals wouldn't let us lay waste to the countryside as we had a right to do. Never mind that it wasn't possible, that's just silly.

The Nazis used their hurt pride and vengeance to demand sway; current conservatives are precisely the same: we were cheated of the just expression of our superiority by inferiors. Never will we allow inferiors to keep us from total dominance. It's about aristocracy and selfishness, and that's the heart of conservatism.

[The Magistrate]

12. Hard But True, Sir

[Igel]

14. Parallels are easy to find in as large and diverse a

country as this.

Many Russians say the same of their government. Islamists say that of their governments. It's a common enough refrain: If you lose prestige, power, and glory--or merely fail to achieve what is properly yours--there's a two-pronged self-absolution.

The people/ummah/narod/nation/raza/whatever failed to live up to their calling because of a lack of will or hesitation. We wuz stabbed in the back by traitors, and must purge them from our ranks. Outsiders have, as a consequence, oppressed and victimized us, so that all the failings we experience are directly due to outside persecution; had they dealt fairly, we'd be on top.

Same refrain, with additional passing tones and ornamentations, in different keys: We are the pure and strong, and we were let down by weaklings in our camp and oppressed by the Other. I see it in the foreign press, I see it in the US press, I see it on LFG and RW sites, I see it here.

It's not the presence of a parallel, it's how important the parallel is. I keep saying that Martha Stewart is like Hitler. After all, both used soup spoons. Fine parallel, but not important.