Ouch! Webb on Russert this morning re women in the military

[CTyankee]

Webb really disappointed me in the time he had to reply to Tim Russert reading his letter in the 70s and another in the 90s about women's (non)capability in leading men in the military.

Why couldn't he just have said he was wrong, that his position has evolved as he has learned more about women's leadership abilities and that he is glad that women have such a strong position in the military as a resul? He seemed embarrassed but he didn't strongly say he was WRONG. Which he was!

I'm afraid he turned off a lot a women in his response. He certainly didn't come on strong for women. My son in law, a Democratic political consultant in Boston, agreed. He's got 3 daughers, my granddaughters, and he felt Webb's response was weak.

God, I am discouraged!

[Why Syzygy]

1. I'm seeing a resurgence

of anti-woman stuff. Even from men I thought could be trusted. Not a good sign.

[Arugula Latte]

3. I hate to say this, but

"men I thought could be trusted" -- that's a rather short list. Yes, some exist...Some.

[NOLADEM]

19. Ah yes, the double standard

Please continue to discredit yourself by further sexist speech...

Interesting you chose to battle generalizations about women with one about men.

[Why Syzygy]

43. It isn't generalizations against women.

It's personal. Check a burka lately?

[Arugula Latte]

61. Yeah, I know.

I was just having one of those days reflecting on the men I've known over the years, including many fathers of friends and many husbands of neighbors, who proved to be supremely untrustworthy. The acts of betrayal towards daughters and wives is shocking to me if I tally it up. So I shouldn't tally it up. But sometimes the personal resentment rises, and combines with an overall resentment towards the way women are treated in much of the world by men.

[smirkymonkey]

9. So am I - it's everywhere, politics, media, even entertainment.

Sometimes it's really hard to keep an open mind about men, very few of them seem to be upset over this resurgence of misogyny. You get the feeling that they all gleefully approve of it.

Makes me wish I was a lesbian sometimes, but for now I am just celibate. I can't get involved with someone who hates my gender and I can't find someone who doesn't.

[Why Syzygy]

45. especially "entertainment"

I believe it portends a huge rift in our society. And of course they gleefully approve when it means naked women's pictures plastered everywhere. I made an impassioned post in a DU group about this not long ago.

Rednecks used to love to make fun of Hillary when Bill was in office. Can't stand her. I don't happen to believe she is the right choice to lead from the White House, but admire a strong woman. I do not understand why men, the most powerful animal on the planet, get so intimidated by li'l ol' me, a delicate lady. Of course I can out talk them. But there are many things they can do that I can't. I think women are much more understanding about the differences, and am okay with that. Do they have to have everything? Is that a gene?

[WCGreen]

58. I am......

[kaygore]

37. Webb is NOT anti-women; I have heard him speak on many occasions

I am a woman. I have asked him hard questions and gotten good, solid, thoughtful answers.

Jim Webb is anything but anti-woman. Where is this coming from????? That he wrote a couple of articles that contributed to a long-standing debate in the military? That he did NOT give some sound bite answer when asked about it?

I am a Virginian and I am working very hard for Webb's victory and I can tell you right now that at least 75% of those volunteering for him are women. Do you think we would waste our time if we thought he was anti-women? Believe me, we have enough work here in Virginia's 2nd congressional district getting that Bushco rubber-stamping, boot licking Thelma Drake defeated. We didn't have to weigh in on the Webb campaign!

We are doing so because we are VERY impressed with Jim Webb. Sure, he may not be as polished or as glad-handing as Allen. But, Webb is a thoughtful, intelligent person of integrity and it would serve Virginia very well to be represented by two such people in the Senate.

[Why Syzygy]

47. I wish you success.

I know nothing about Virginia politics. And of course there are more women volunteers. There are always are. Do you think the men notice?

[OzarkDem]

49. So why doesn't he support women serving in the military

and if he does, why can't he just say so?

Its time the Democrats take back their own party instead of having to deal with equivicators who are really just GOP in Dem clothing.

If Webb is a GOP'er he should just admit it and stick with his own party. We only water down our own party's ideals by pretending we need to take in GOP candidates and appease their agenda.

[kaygore]

74. Webb is NOT a GOPer. He comes from a family of Democrats

Like many who served in Viet Nam, he was put off by the reception he received when he came back to the U.S. At that time he switched parties but, by his admission, was never comfortable with Republicans on social issues. He felt that the Republicans were more pro the military and better at national defense and security.

Again, by his admission, he does not feel that the Republicans are stronger on defense than Republicans any more and finds the country less secure under the Republicans.

If you saw Meet the Press today, Webb reiterated this when asked about his one-time support of George Allen: Webb thought that Allen would be strong on national defense and found him not to be. Further, Webb is disgusted with the Republicans fiscal policies.

I find Webb far more progressive than say Clinton or Mrs. Clinton. He will not take money from corporations.

Virginia is very lucky to have a person of Jim Webb's integrity running for senate!

[rodeodance]

2. i watched this am. Webb did not do good with his walfling.

[napi21]

4. I watched MTP this AM. I'm a woman, and I saw both guys

were guilty of sinilar things. Webb wrote that story, and Allantriedhis hardest to keep women out of the university.

Both were wrong, but it was a while ago. I personally thinkit was worse to keep women out of the Univ. because that is a great opportunity for a great education, and entering the military is gaining the right to die!

I would eliminate this argument from both guys, and make my voting decision based on other things.

[CTyankee]

5. I'm glad I don't live in VA any more.

It would be a hard choice. I moved to CT from VA in 1985 and I will never go back. VA was a key state in the early 80s to defeat the ERA. Goodbye and good riddance as far as I'm concerned!

Now comes this ridiculous debate on the ability of women to lead men in the military. Wow, was I turned off by Webb, our supposedly liberal progressive Democrat!

What kind of liberal, progressive Democrat says this crap? He should have said, "I learned from this and I have seen firsthand that women can and have led military units..." But no, just a lot of obfuscation and I am totally pissed.

Sorry, VA dems. I know you are wonderful people (and I lived among you for 9 and 1/2 years) but this is just unacceptable! I hope he will get some education and get better as he goes on the campaign trail.

[MH1]

7. It shouldn't be a hard choice.

Webb isn't my favorite of the Dems running across the country, but overall he's not bad, and anyway the CRUCIAL thing comes down to ONE vote at the beginning of the session - that determines whether Dems or Repukes control the Senate. I'd like to see Webb vote progressively for the rest of the session, but that ONE vote is enough to make it NO CONTEST.

[greenman3610]

13. hard choice?

one is a fascist. the other isn't.

what's the problem?

[CTyankee]

17. Webb has some issues he obviously can't confront on women

in the military. It is a very bad blind spot for him. He needs to deal with it honestly and squarely. It does not fit his image as a strong military man to seem like he is waffling. He shoudl come out and say he was wrong, he has evolved in his thinking, which is a good thing, and he now sees the data which proves that women are extremely capable of leading men in combat.

You have to look at several sides of the equation.

[wisteria]

98. He said he no longer believes what he said 27 years ago.

Come on, it was so long ago. Why rehash anything like this now. People evolve- Webb has evolved. I don't think the Webb camp needs to get bogged down discussing an old issue like women in combat. Allen wants to see this become an issue within our party and it is being used to divide us. We can battle Webb on women's issues once he becomes a Senator. I bet he would be a lot more receptive than Allen on issues of concern to women.

[atreides1]

15. Some people just need to let go.

So how long will you hold a grudge against VA, what happened was in the 80's, this is 2006. What Webb
did in 1979 was at the time considered acceptable by the military command structure, they may not have come out in public and backed him up, but they agreed with it.

So can my people the Hawaiians, demand redress for our country being invaded and occupied, or does this kind of thing have a time limit?


"What kind of liberal, progressive Democrat says this crap? He should have said, "I learned from this and I have seen firsthand that women can and have led military units..."

Well at the time he wasn't a Liberal, nor was he a Democrat. He was a member of Reagan's administration and a Republican.

Found this bit of information:
H. RES. 155
Requiring the House of Representatives to take any legislative action necessary to verify the ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment as part of the Constitution when the legislatures of an additional three States ratify the Equal Rights Amendment.


IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

March 15, 2005
Mr. ANDREWS (for himself, Mrs. MALONEY, Mr. PAYNE, Ms. LEE, Mr. HOLT, Mr. GRIJALVA, Mr. LANTOS, Ms. WOOLSEY, Mr. OWENS, Mr. MCNULTY, Mr. VAN HOLLEN, Ms. MCKINNEY, Ms. SCHAKOWSKY, and Mr. CUMMINGS) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


RESOLUTION
Requiring the House of Representatives to take any legislative action necessary to verify the ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment as part of the Constitution when the legislatures of an additional three States ratify the Equal Rights Amendment.


Resolved, That, when the legislatures of an additional three States ratify the Equal Rights Amendment, the House of Representatives shall take any legislative action necessary to verify the ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment as part of the Constitution.



Unratified States

Alabama
Arizona
Arkansas
Florida
Georgia
Illinois
Louisiana
Mississippi
Missouri
Nevada
North Carolina
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Utah
Virginia

So I guess you won't be visiting any of these states either? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but your dislike of Virginia for not ratifying the ERA must also extend to these other states as well?

[CTyankee]

21. Well, what do you expect me to say? Oh, no! Why that's just fine with me!

C'mon, we women have to be stronger than that and you know it!

"Well at the time he wasn't a Liberal, nor was he a Democrat. He was a member of Reagan's administration and a Republican." OK, I grant you that, but on Russert today he is NO LONGER a Republican, so can I please expect him not to act as one? Excuse me????

Geez, how long are you going to make excuses for guys like him? I truly expect him to embrace feminism as articulated by the Democratic party if he expects to be elected in this party.

Pardon me for thinking straight.

[stuartrida]

16. it wouldn't be hard for me to choose between

a moderate Democrat who would make a Democratic senate majority more likely and
a rightwing Bush enabler who would make a Republican senate majority more likely.

I am surprised it would be hard a hard choice for anyone on DU.

[CTyankee]

18. No? He said some pretty harsh things against women's leadership

ability in the military? Doesn't that matter to you? If not, why not? Care to elaborate?

Above all, he did not apologize for his mistake in saying that women could not lead men in the military. He does know better, he just can't bring himself to say so. I think maybe he thinks the other side will say he's "weak" or something.

All that aside, a strong person to me admits when he or she is wrong and says it has helped them become a stronger person. I am disappointed that Webb didn't say that. He just weaseled out. That is a disappointment to me as a progressive.

[magnolia]

23. Read the transcript.

You may have let your emotions do the listening when you watched it this morning. Read the transcript. He basically said everything you are saying he should have said.

[CTyankee]

27. But he weasled it. That's the point.

He never came right out and said he was wrong, which he was. That was my difference with him. He was not strong and forthright and I think he could and should have been. It left me feeling he was weaker and worse, that maybe he didn't believe it.

[Auntie Bush]

31. Just maybe he might think men wouldn't vote for a man that

thinks it's OK for women to lead men.

I really don't get what the fuss is all about. So it's only one man's opinion and he has the right to that. Lot's of people don't like the idea. I'm a woman and I don't see why women are so anxious to have the right to go to war. I'm personally glad to stay home and out of those wretched places. Some women are too feminine to go to war and shoot'em up and would rather be nurturing. Those that are not have the right to join the military. I don't think men should be persecuted because they don't want their women in the military. It's natural and to be expected that they want to be the protectors. I would also hate to see the day that women were required to join the military or be drafted and that day would/will come if everyone started believing we can do anything as well as men. Men are better suited to do some things as women are better suited to do others. After all we are two different sexes and that means there's a difference in what we are suited to do. Ok, lets the flames begin.

[CTyankee]

41. No flames, it is just beside the point I was making.

Which was that Webb was wrong when he claimed in 1979 that women couldn't lead men in the military. When they proved that they could his response was measured and in this interview he hedged and didn't admit that the evidence of all the women who have graduated from the service academies and those who serve in the lower ranks have and do serve ably and well in leadership positions in the military.

I just think he could have graciously admitted that his earlier assessment was wrong. That's all

[Why Syzygy]

52. I don't give a crap if they can lead men.

They can perform. And that's what counts. See the IMAX movie, "Red Flag" if you get a chance. There are women climbing in the cockpit of F15s and F16s. They are officers. They lead by example. Anyone who says otherwise is not paying attention.

[Why Syzygy]

48. Well . sad to say

remember the chick who was lead at Abu Graib? She got canned. That is not my idea of female leadership, but we'll never know the truth.

[kaygore]

76. You haven't been following this race--Webb did apologize

Webb Apologizes For Column About Women In Military

POSTED: 2:56 pm EDT September 14, 2006
UPDATED: 3:25 pm EDT September 14, 2006
Email This Story | Print This Story
RICHMOND, Va. -- Virginia's Democratic Senate candidate Jim Webb has apologized for his former opinions about women serving in the military and said he has changed his mind.

<snip>

Webb said in a statement released by his campaign on Wednesday that he did not anticipate the widespread reaction to his article. He said he was "profoundly sorry" and said he is "completely comfortable" with women's roles in today's military.

<snip>

The women spoke at a Richmond news conference organized and paid for by Webb's Republican opponent, Sen. George Allen.

.................................

This is part of Rove's dirty tricks. Why are you falling for it? Webb is a good and honest person. Those "women" who spoke at the news conference organized by George Allen are political pawns. Webb served in the military while George Allen cut and ran. Webb doesn't keeping giving a different excuse each time when asked about writing that column as Allen does about Macaca.

Webb is a person of integrity and principle--something very rare even in our society let alone politics. He doesn't just say, "I'm sorry for what I said. I was wrong. Women make great killers of Iraqi babies." He instead gives a solid and concrete example of how he addressed his earlier misconception of how fit women are for killing Iraqi babies: On his own initiative as Secretary of the Navy, he created a commission that was 50% men and 50% women to examine the role of women in the military, a commission that open more billets for women in the Navy than has occurred under any other Secretary of the Navy before or since.

I just don't see what your problem is with Webb or why you say he hasn't apologized.

[Stinky The Clown]

77. Thanks, I hadn't seen that before

[rep the dems]

40. I understand your argument, but when both candidates have said

stupid things about women, you should just go with the one who has a better stance on the other issues that matter to you, and that is Webb (I assume). And let's not forget, women aren't the only people Allen looks down on, if you catch my drift.

[CTyankee]

42. But that said, should women just sit down and shut up?

I don't think so. We can and should do better as , er. progressives!

[rep the dems]

44. They should make it clear that they're unhappy, but if they look

beyond that they should realize that overall Webb is a pretty good guy. Confederate George, not so much.

[kaygore]

75. Hmmmm...Webb is not some smarmy politico like Lieberman

Both Connecticut and Virginia are lucky to have good, solid Democrats--Lamont and Webb--challenging the status quo of hubris and corruption in Washington.

[ShortnFiery]

80. Yes, it's a wash ...

That's too bad because he wouldn't have had to get all "Femi-Nazi" to admit that his views have evolved and many women are graduating from the Military Academies "with honors."

However, in Bush-World, you're consider "a pussy" if you say anything positive about your support of women within the Military.

Yes, I'll still vote for Webb ... we can work on changing this perspective once he's in office. :-)

[Goldilocks]

6. Don't worry, be happy. Repubs often offend various groups of

people and still find millions of them vote for them anyway. For example, can you beleve a million gays voted for Bush in 2000, and no doubt many muslims voted for Bush in 2004. Besides, the elections are rigged anyway, and all these debates and ads and discussions are meaningless.

[CarlVK]

36. I'd prefer we be better.

[Goldilocks]

55. Me too, but would you vote for Allen instead?

[OzarkDem]

51. Fine for the GOP, but we're the Dem party

there's no need to tolerate that kind of leadership in our own party.

It looks like we need more Ann Richards type women leaders in this party and a lot less Webbs and Liebermans.

[Ninja Jordan]

8. Aside from that, I thought Webb hit a homerun

Allen sounded mushy

[bigdarryl]

10. Give me a break he...

he explained himself clearly he said women don't belong on the FRONT LINE in a war. but have a major roll in the military

[CTyankee]

28. But that was not made clear by him.

I truly couldn't distinguish what he was saying because he didn't out and out say "front lines." I have to accept that from you as his interpretation (which I don't know is true). But with even that explanation, what does it mean? To me, the way you have put it, it means that a woman cannot head up a group of soldiers and lead them on a mission. Does that mean a female pilot of a bomber? In the army, does it mean a squadron leader? At what level of the military (in terms of military personnel being led) does it apply? And what is the rationale for making that decision? Please explain.

[citizen snips]

11. I thought Webb did a good job in the debate.

I think he did a good job of articulating his opinions.

[abluelady]

12. This is Virginia, Folks

We're not ever going to get a liberal Democratic candidate elected. We have to do the best we can. Liberal progressives will never find the perfect candidate here. A ham sandwich would be better than George Allen and Jim Webb is way better than a ham sandwich. It could be much worse for us.

[CTyankee]

14. Yep, I get that, I truly do! But why can't he just admit he'swrong?

The evidence is clear. We've had all these women who've graduated at the top of their class at West Point and Annapolis. What's the big deal anymore?

It just sounded like he was hedging and waffling. He should have owned up, apologized, told a little story about a woman in a leadsership position that he admired and then just left it at that. So easy. Why didn't he? That's what mystifies, and frankly, bothers me.

[abluelady]

32. He Did Sort of Do That

He said he has matured. He alluded to times being different in the 70's. I got the feeling he has evolved. He also talked about investigations he initiated as a secretary of the navy which were 50% women. I have also seen a letter that a woman who was in the naval academy at the time the women who complained were that stated she did not feel the "pervasive air of sexual discrimination" that the women claimed.

Jim Webb is very honest vs. George Allen who is a constant liar. Hopefully, Jim, not George will get in the Senate and we will learn to respect Jim's honesty rather than looking for ways to criticize him. Did you honestly believe Allen's Macaca apology?

[CTyankee]

34. Yeah, the problem was that it WAS "sorta"

He didn't come out strongly enough. He failed career military women by his weak response. I felt he should have done better than that, if he wants to be a leader.

And yes, George Allen is a total joke, macaca or no macaca.

[abluelady]

94. Give Him a Break--He's a Man! n/t

[kaygore]

38. Good grief--Jim Webb may not be a Wellstone but he is sure better

than most of those lilly-livered Democrats that we have in office right now.

Democrats have become the party of fiscal responsibility of the 21st Century, so Webb may not be liberal or progressive from a tax-and-spend perspective, but he believes in social fairness and decries the demise of the middle class and the loss of American jobs. He also, in response to a question I asked him at a Democratic women's luncheon in Norfolk, VA, has been exploring health care options so that the 47 million Americans without health care and the millions more with inadequate health care can be covered.

[OzarkDem]

54. Let me guess

he wants to subsidize private health insurance policies for everyone. That's a plan we're hearing from too many Dem leaders these days, probably one of the worst ideas since privatizing Social Security.

To be fair, I'd be interested in what he does support for health care reforms. Did he give you any details?

[kaygore]

78. This is what he said. He was very thoughtful &deliberate when he answered

Webb acknowledges that this is a critical issue, not just for families and individuals but also for our country's being competitive. Citing the closing of the Ford plant in Norfolk, VA, he noted that something like (he had the exact figure) $1000 cost of each Ford car is health insurance costs for Ford employees.

Webb said that solving this problem requires input from all stakeholders (stakeholders being my word). Webb said that we have examples of national health care plans that we can also draw from. Webb noted that it made no sense that Canadians can buy the same drug in the same package for about 60% less (again this is not his number but it was something like this) less than Americans because the Canadian government, like most governments, negotiate price reductions from drug companies and that the cost of drugs was one area that was driving up the cost of health care and thus health insurance.

Webb said that heath insurance reform was not a sound bite issue. That it was something that demands serious and thoughtful attention but that as a nation we had to come together to address this issue. He also noted that in his kitchen conversations that he has been having with people across the state, he has been soliciting input on this issue--from citizens as well as medical professionals.

I haven't really done justice to his response, but it was thoughtful, knowledgeable, and considered.

Those who want to subsidize private health insurance in both parties are in the pocket of special interests. Webb accepts NO money from PACs or special interests. He refuses to be beholden to big business, etc. I found it refreshing that he had not pat answer but discussed the process and the critical nature of good health care for every American!

[OzarkDem]

53. Since when is equal rights for women a "liberal" concept?

Who's kidding who here, come on. Even the GOP has more women in elected office than the Dems.

Supporting women in leadership positions, whether in the military or in business or in politics isn't a "liberal" concept.

[abluelady]

96. How I Wish You Were Right

Down here they still want us barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. I know that is a generalization, but the south is different.

Everytime I see a woman Repuke, I think how she got there and how she should be a Dem!

[AnnieBW]

20. Repeat After Me:

"He's better than Felix."
"He's better than Felix."
"He's better than Felix."
"He's better than Felix."

Webb certainly needs an attitude adjustment on women in the military (paging former Gen. Claudia Kennedy!) but he's at least better than a guy who has a noose and a Confederate flag in his office.

[CTyankee]

22. I admit he's better than Allen. No contest between the two.

My problem is with his answer to the question about his former statements which were devastating. He needs to do better. The MSM is going after him hammer and tongs.

We gotta do better in the national media, folks. We can't let Russert just pull the rug out from under us, which is exactly what he did.

It aint' good.

[w4rma]

50. Well at least you no longer think it would be

"a hard choice between the two".

Good grief. :eyes:

[OzarkDem]

56. How about a compromise

Support him now, but start looking for someone to replace him in 6 years - someone who isn't a DINO and isn't afraid to support common sense public policy.

[AtomicKitten]

24. Webb remains far superior to Macaca-boy

by a long-shot. I cringed with the segment on women in the military - not that Allen had a better POV - but this is where we employ the "big picture" ideology.

Otherwise, I thought Webb did a brilliant job.

[OzarkDem]

57. Support women in leadership or else

there's absolutely no reason to give him a "pass" on that issue.

We should put some pressure on him until he changes his mind and his message. We wouldn't accept him equivocating on equal right for racial minorities, why should we think women deserve less?

[AtomicKitten]

72. I don't see where I've indicated I'm giving him a pass.

I have merely weighed the two candidates and Allen comes up short.

[OzarkDem]

86. Thanks for the clarification

I was hoping that was the case. I agree, he's the better candidate, but that doesn't excuse him for his views on women. We really need to hold Dem candidates to a higher standard on women's issues.

[CarlVK]

25. Open mouth, insert foot.

It's times like this that make me feel like throwing a chair at them.

[Hippo_Tron]

26. Webb wasn't willing to come out of a military mindset

Which is understandable, but at the same time it is something he needs to learn how to do if he's going to be a politician. He refused to say that he was wrong because politicians shouldn't dictate military policy, the military should. While he has a point (although I disagree with in certain ways), he failed to do what he needed to do as a politician which is say that he was wrong back in 1979.

It was obvious that Allen had the best consultants money can buy to give him simple scripted answers for everything Russert would ask. Webb can't afford that.

[The Wizard]

29. And Russert didn't give Webb the questions in advance either.

Allen seemed scripted as if he knew what was coming. It's like stealing the other team's play book or signals.

[CTyankee]

30. thank you for the cogent response. You are right on.

Webb needs more education, that's all. Plus, he has to be willing to be educated.

Isn't it funny that Wes Clark is so excellent on women's issues and he's a guy who's been at the top of the leadership chain?

You see, it can be done! I have known several very enlightened men who have military experience and many more who are enlightened without the military experience! "Without" is better (easier to deal with) but "with" is OK when they are willing to learn!

[kaygore]

35. Webb doesn't give simple, scripted answers--I have heard him speak

many times. He is considered, thoughful, and willing to listen. He is genuine. Allen is a fob and a fake.

[OzarkDem]

60. So he doesn't support our women in uniform?

I have a couple of women friends who are Colonel's in the Air Force. They might take offense.

[kaygore]

33. At least he doesn't keep changing his story as does Allen on Macaca also

I felt that his answer was a good one: That he felt that it should be a military decision and not a political one and that he, on his own initiative, as Sec. of the Navy convened a committee to study the role of women in the military and make recommendation to the military command first and to him in a political position second.

He also noted that he was contributing to the debate at the time and he did say that it was 27 years ago and that in those intervening years the performance of woman in the military has shown that they are very capable of leading men as well as women.

What we forget is context. Columbus is reviled by many today but what he accomplished (despite its many negative results for native peoples) was heroic in the context of his times.

Unlike Allen and so many other politicians today, Webb is not going to try to spin something he did in the past. He acknowledges that his position in the debate at the time proved wrong but maintains that there needed to be a debate and without that debate, woman might be even farther behind today.

I am sorry if some women in the academy at the time feel that Jim Webb's article made their lives harder, but I was alive at the time and know that any women who braved all male enclaves knew that the going was going to be rough. Some could take it and others could not. I also know that Jim Webb was NOT the only person questioning what women's role should be in the Navy at that time.

Finally, I feel that the women who brought this up are politically motivated, which Webb was not when he weighed in on the issue years ago. If they were really concerned about the military and women's roles, then they should do all they could to get people with military experience elected to office so that we can get back to using our troops wisely.

Sure, it would have been nice on some level to hear Webb do the Republican spin and make up some fairy tale about his position, but just as we had those Swift Boaters question Kerry's integrity and motivations for questioning the Viet Nam engagement--all to further the career of two men--Bush and Cheney--who are certified cowards and who did everything they could NOT to defend this country in the military, so these women are Rovian puppets.

We get word back from Iraq that female soldiers are dying of dehydration because they are afraid to drink liquids after a certain time of day because to do so wold mean they would have to go to the latrines at night where they are raped. What our female troops are experiencing in Iraq puts their very lives at risk and all for some bozo draft dodgers. What these women is Iraq must go through make some hazing and taunting at the Naval Academy look mickey mouse.

I am sorry that you are disappointed in Webb but your disappointment is misplaced. I have had the opportunity to attend Webb events where I have asked him tough questions and heard him answer tough questions from others. He is thoughtful, intelligent, and willing to listen. He does not spin his answers or try to redirect his answer so that he doesn't have to answer uncomfortable questions.

If the women of Virginia either don't go to the polls or vote against Webb for something that he did decades ago and now says he was wrong and certainly made up for when he was Sec. of the Navy, then their husbands, sons, daughters, and even themselves deserve to die in this senseless, ego-driven fiasco in Iraq.

Jim Webb is the real thing--a person of integrity who accepts no PAC or special interest money, who is motivated to run for office to make this country a better place. I may not agree with him on every issue, but a U.S. government composed of honest men and women of integrity beholden to no special interest and concerned only for the good of the constituents, the country and the world would be such an improvement over the ego-driven, power-hungry madmen and women who are there now, that I am willing to overlook youthful transgressions.

After all, at the same time Webb was penning that article, Bush was face down in his own alcoholic vomit with track marks up has arm and snot running out of his blow blown nose.

[CTyankee]

39. all I am asking for is a simple admission

that he was wrong in his initial assessment of women which in 79 was that they were categorically unable or unfit to lead men in the military, which he did say they are, in a roundabout way. I thought a military man would be more forthright. I asked him for honesty. That is all. He did not do that. He spun it instead. I was disappointed. I expected better of him. My standards are high. I thought he could frame his answer better and be a little more humble. It is, after all, the truth! Does that not matter?

It is sad, because Webb's earlier response on what he would do in Iraq was clear, crisp, well thought out and right. A perfect response to those who say Dems don't have a plan.

You and I are not at opposing sides and I see Webb's obvious attributes. I would never vote for Allen. I just expected a higher level of honesty from Webb, that's all.

[karynnj]

70. I accept a lot of what you say but the analogy to the SBVT

is just wrong.

John Kerry was a genuine war hero - they lied about his service PERIOD. There was no truth in their claims. OTOH Webb did write that memo and that article and say those things. The women who object are not lying. They are likely Republican, but this is an area where Webb has some problems - and the accusations are true. That said I think he handled the question very well pointing out what he couls to counter it.

[Stinky The Clown]

46. Okay, I've now watched this 'debate' three times ..... Webb was not .....

.... specifically 'against women in the military'. First, he took ownership for what he wrote in 1979. He essentially, but true enough not specifically, said he was wrong. I thought he well clarified his views from the 80s and now. He was opposed to political imposition of women in all military jobs. He was in *favor* of allowing the military to determine where women could/should serve. That's quite different from being opposed to women in the military.

Now, as to the strength of his arguments in this particular debate? It could have been a **lot** better. Or maybe it was perfect. The ONLY people he needs to convince are the voters of Virginia ...... not me here in Maryland or you in New England.

[OzarkDem]

59. Then he needs to clarify his position

The voters in Virginia support GOP'ers who support women in leadership positions, surely they will accept Allen doing the same. Unless there's some reason why the GOP should support equal rights and the Dems shouldn't?

[Stinky The Clown]

62. I thought he made clear that he **supports** women in leadership roles

I don't get the harsh criticism I'm reading here on DU. His answer may have been a bit muddied, but it was impossible to take as being anything other than in support of women in the military in leadership positions. Not only by his recent tour over there but also by the actions he took back when he was SecNav.

[OzarkDem]

63. Good, then he won't mind "clarifying" his position n/t

[Stinky The Clown]

64. Why dontcha ask him to do that?

[OzarkDem]

65. I did, I sent his campaign an email

and I would encourage others to do the same.

http://webb.bluestatedigital.com/page/s/contact

One of the greatest women leaders in the history of the Democratic Party hasn't even been buried yet and Dems are already starting to think its ok to give women's issues second class status in the party. For shame.

[Stinky The Clown]

66. I think that's just a tad over the top.

[OzarkDem]

67. That's understandable

to be fair, its hard for men to be as passionate about women's issues as women are.

[Stinky The Clown]

68. Was that aimed at me?

Who, I might add, you don't even know.

[Sparkly]

69. Oh NO you DIDN'T!!!

That was a cheap shot, OzarkDem!!

Webb, as a Democrat, is the man for WOMEN in VA, H2S is one of the men for WOMEN on DU, and passion comes from empathy as much as experience among Democrats, no matter WHAT the topic.

There are women against women's issues, and men who support us. Let's not even go there, here.

[OzarkDem]

82. Well help me out here, then

Please explain why its ok to let Webb equivocate on his position supporting women in the military? What is it about his feelings on this issue that makes it hard for him to be clear when debating or discussing it in public?

This should be a fairly simple matter for him to clear up. Why should we give him a "pass" this time? And what do we do the next time when Webb or another Dem thinks its "safe" to fudge on this issue? Please tell me what I'm missing here and why its not important to support women's issues, even women in the military, in this case.

I'm not trying to take cheap shots at anyone. I'm trying to stand up for women's rights and hold our own leaders accountable on the issue. I'm sorry if that is offensive to other Dems, but it shouldn't be.

[Stinky The Clown]

87. He didn't equivocate

He may have been inartful in his phrasing, but he didn't equivocate.

And if you want to 'stand up for women's rights' take the fight to those committed to suppressing them. That's not me and its not Webb - much as you're trying to make it so.

[OzarkDem]

89. I'm not making this about you, H2S

Its about Webb.

But there's enough evidence to believe Webb hasn't resolved this issue in his own mind. I don't think anyone can say that Dem women don't hold GOP candidates to high standards on women's issues, but its only fair to hold our own candidates to the same standard.

As I said, I have women friends who are high ranking officers in the military. I would feel terrible if I didn't say something about a candidate from my own party who, if elected, might sit on a committee or cast a vote that would be unfair to them and other women in the military. He's a big guy and he seems to be a good candidate otherwise, so this shouldn't be too hard for him.

[CTyankee]

92. I agree with your last point as I have said the same thing here in CT

to folks weighing in on what Ned Lamont should be doing. You have a good point. I want Webb to win and can't stand Allen.

I felt that this was one of those situations where a big clarification was in order from WEbb at that moment. But I know that my background on this issue colored it differently than it might for other people. Which is why I was interested in my son in law's feeling. He's a Democratic political consultant who travels all over the country running focus groups and analyzing polls for a living, even tho he is based in Boston. I trust his antenna on picking up the message (or lack of message)in Webb's response. And he was unhappy with Webb's handling of the issue.

Believe me, we were both pulling for Webb!

[ms liberty]

71. I'm not disappointed in the least...

I'm not sure how old you are, but I'm a woman in my mid-40's. I was in my late teens when his original letter was written in 1979. I remember that time period; there was a lot of discussion about women in combat, a lot of pushing (mostly by women) for more women to be admitted more fully into various military institutions and occupations. I thought his explanation of his position and the circumstances surrounding the letter was perfectly reasonable for the time period. I'm also satisfied with his explanation of his viewpoint on the issue of women in the military. The military by its very nature is a traditional organization that demands order and has an authoritarian structure, and change comes about slowly. It attracts people who believe in and prefer that kind of world view. It's not surprising that he is more conservative in his viewpoint on this issue, although he expressed an evolved viewpoint. He never said he didn't believe women were incapable of leading men, he expressed reservations about women leading men in combat positions, and he never said or intimated that the problem was the ability of the women themselves, in fact he seemed to express otherwise. There is a difference between the two. To be ready to throw him over because of this one issue is an overreaction, IMHO. Certainly, it would politically have been much easier and clearer if he had begun by saying "I was wrong then" and THEN explained, but it's not the end of the world. I can handle a nuanced answer. He's not a polished professional politician, and on balance he presented himself very well. I was favorably impressed with him. I don't base my voting on ONE issue alone, and he's just running for A Senate seat! Prioritize! There are other issues that are more important right now - like ending this effing war and stopping the fascists in the WH before they bring about the end of the world. We can worry about the neanderthal men (I'm joking here!) later!

[Stinky The Clown]

73. He actually put an even finer point on it ......

He wasn't even opposed to women in combat leadership roles ..... he had 'concerns' about women in *infantry* combat roles. The up close and personal stuff.

One can debate that fine point, but one has to agree there are two sides to the story, that unless you've been there yourself - for real - you can't really know what its like or what the right side of the argumaent is. All he wanted in the end, was for the military to determine where and how women might serve.

His answer on this point was, you rightly note, nuanced.

(And yes, it was, overall, also a bit muddy.)

[CTyankee]

84. In 1979 letting the "military" decide was tantamount to letting men

decide. In 1979 I was living in No. VA and working for the ACLU Legislative office in D.C. One of the big issues of the day was women in the military. Women attending the service academies was an issue that it isn't today. Women were trying to scale an immense wall, the established military, in the world's mightiest armed force. Letting the military, and only the military, determine the issue would doubtless have resulted in continuation of the status quo. Men would have retained their power, rather than sharing it and they would have fewer people competing with them for leadership positions, which of course was desirable to them. Also, I always wondered if men were just a little bit scared of putting guns in women's hands...

Interestingly, Webb did refer at one point to the fact that women have always fought in wars, to his credit. So I don't think Webb is a hopeless misogynist (which Allen clearly is). Again, I felt he showed he was a clear thinker on Iraq and I give him kudos for that part of the interview. So it was a real downer not to hear him speak more clearly on the issue of women in the military.

[Crowdance]

91. Please clarify: "unless you've been there yourself -for real - you can't

know what it's like or what the right side of the argument is."

Are you saying that only people who've been in infantry combat roles may have an opinion about who may serve in such roles?

[4bucksagallon]

79. I just watched it and I think he was dead on.

Webb said you can't have women "in infantry platoons and artillery units" and I firmly believe he is right on the money. You can argue about equal access, but until you have served in an infantry platoon, out in the field under combat conditions for weeks sometimes months at a time, you really don't know what you are talking about period.

[OzarkDem]

83. Is there some basis for that reasoning?

What exactly is it about those positions in the military that makes women "unsuitable"?

Frankly, I'm surprised this debate is still going on, so long after women have proven their worth in combat and in military leadership during the last 20 years.

[4bucksagallon]

95. Having spent a year in Nam with a bunch of grungy, smelly, men out in

the "bush" I just can't picture a woman in those conditions and wouldn't want to subject them to it for safety reasons. There is no privacy, no pc language, no place for a woman. I can't picture a woman picking up the pieces of enemy soldiers to be placed in a net for delivery to HQ for the "body count. If you have the stomach for that you're a better man than I am. Then of course there is the carrying 80 or 90 lbs of gear and humping 3 or 4 clicks, some women could probably do it but I suspect the number is very very low. My question to you is why would any woman want to serve in an infantry platoon? There are many jobs in the military that women can do and do with distinction. My opinion will not change I would not want my daughter, sister, wife etc. serving in an infantry company. This argument is moot if you like Allen go for him. It is after all just my opinion, which I think I am entitled to, just as you are yours.

[lynne]

81. As a Virginian and a woman -

- I find Webb's article a concern. I can dismiss his statements about women being unable to lead and that we should not be in combat just because of when the article was written. Those were the thoughts of many in that time and women have proven those statements to be false long ago.

However, the part of the article where he referred to a dorm at the Naval Academy that housed 4,000 men and and 300 women as "a horny woman's dream" continues to concern me as it indicates a real disrespect towards all women and not just towards those in the military.

[OzarkDem]

85. Wow, that's shocking

this guy has some problems.

[Stinky The Clown]

88. Advocate for Allen, then

[OzarkDem]

90. I'm a Democrat

and I think its better to "raise Webb's awareness" on this issue.

[CTyankee]

93. And then he cracked a smile, followed by a strange segue about

chewing tobacco. I thought I had misheard Russert at that point.I truly don't know what to make of that, horny women and tobacco-chewing (with the unfortunate connection at least in my mind with spitting the vile stuff).

[wisteria]

97. I am old enough to remember when there was a lot of talk like this

being spewed about. Webb was no different than many, many other Republicans at the time that did not want to give into the Democrats and women's groups and allow woman in the military with combat roles. It was 27 years ago that this comment was made. He apologized for the remark and said it was stupid and immature. What else was he suppose to do? This remark will not lose any men's votes, IMO, and most women today, unfortunately won't even give it much thought. As a woman, I can give him the benefit of the doubt and believe that he has grown since then.
Oh, and were we to believe that Allen would have been a more sensitive male and understood woman's roles in combat were necessary for equality?