Howard Dean brags about A rating from the NRA in Michigan.

[billbuckhead]

Dean's at it again, sucking up to these blacklisting bigots. Let's see if the much touted NRA gun worshippers can deliver Michigan to Dean. Here's a chance for the gunners to show their political strength in actuality rather than conjecture about which states we lost because of Democrats support of reasonable gun regulation. According to the NRA crowd, Kerry should go down in flames in Michigan. Let's see if it happens.
<http://www.gunguys.com/>

[D G]

1. OK, I don't support Dean, but gunguys.com is a bit inflammatory

as far as their headline and characterization of Dean goes.

Here is the actual article:
Dean talks up change: 175 in Flint hear his ideas on jobs, health
http://www.mlive.com/news/fljournal/index.ssf?/base/news-19/1075998457117080.xml

And the actual statement about guns and the NRA:
Dean also answered questions from the audience, including one from Zane Walker, business agent for the Iron Workers Local 25 in Burton, who wondered about Dean's stance on guns.

"I come from a very rural state," said Dean, who noted an A rating from the National Rifle Association and said he opposed additional federal gun control regulations. "Let Michigan decide how much gun control it wants."

In other news:
On Friday, Kerry and U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich of Ohio will come to Genesee County to rally supporters.

[MAlibdem]

59. "Let Michigan decide how much gun control it wants."

Not if those guns can cross any state border...oh, they easily can. No thanks, I don't care how many small-penised Michiganers need big guns and M-16s, I don't like getting shot.

[Redneck Socialist]

2. Go Dean n/t

[Upfront]

3. Gun Vote

is huge in Michigan and Dean is smart to mention that he gets it un- like Kerry. By the way you just made up my mind on the Kerry issue, I will never vote for him, period!!!!! Congrats

[0007]

4. Give 'em hell Dean

[KaraokeKarlton]

5. I LOVE Dean's position on guns

I also have absolutely no respect for people who are radically anti-gun. I view them in the same way I view the radical right to lifers...just a bunch of fools who want to force their radicalized views down the throats of the rest of us.

[janx]

11. I'll never forget one thing Dean mentioned about gun laws

in Vermont: "You can't bring a gun to school, and you can't shoot a deer from your car--it wouldn't be fair to the deer."

Cracked me up.

[billbuckhead]

12. When is this big gun vote going to kick in for Dean? What state?

Which state will Dr Dean win because he kneels before the NRA? I don't think it's going to happen anywhere. In fact I think that a large part of Dean's legendary collapse is that middle America didn't want to identify with Dean's pandering to progun extremists and their fellow travelers from Confederate flag crowd.

I bet Kerry beats Dean and his NRA supporters 5 to 1 in Michigan. If this doesn't prove that this alleged huge gun vote is a myth, what will? Dean's even pro-union, they won't have to vote against the union to have unlimited access to any kind of weapons under any circumstances. Every excuse is gone. In Kerry's announcement speech he railed against the NRA and now once again Dean"notes" his many "A's" from the NRA.

[janx]

15. Oh for pete's sake. "Kneels before the NRA" ?

Dean has common sense about gun laws and wants to leave them up to the states. How could anybody tell a Vermonter to get rid of his grandfather's deer rifle?

How could anyone deny that the crime environment in NYC is a little different than in, say, Wyoming?

How could anyone have told me that my collector Lady Browning 22 rifle had to go because it was defined as a "semi-automatic" weapon? (I would have preferred lever action, but that's beside the point.)

And I say this as a resident of Colorado--and I was here with high school kids when Columbine happened.

[D G]

16. Yes, but how could anyone deny

that if any other candidate had an "A" rating from an organization chock-full of right-wing nuts like the NRA, he'd be flamed to a crisp on DU?

I agree with Dean's gun stance, BTW, but this had to be said.

[janx]

20. The NRA chose to do that. Dean governed as he saw best.

So he can't get flamed for it. His position on the matter is so common-sense simple that I'm surprised he doesn't get more credit for it.

[D G]

23. Of course he can get flamed for it

Other Democratic candidates have been flamed for six degrees of separation from other "unpure" organizations.

Again, overall I agree with Dean's position on guns, but he'll get a spanking from me if he starts cozying up with the NRA. (not that there is any evidence that he will)

[janx]

36. If there is no evidence for that, then why even suggest it?

?

[D G]

46. Oh, is posting innuendo forbidden on DU?

Better lock up the place and go home. :D

[janx]

51. It may be allowed--

but it's certainly not useful.

[NashVegas]

76. Maybe You Hadn't Noticed, But

Dean's been flamed to a crisp for pretty much everything else.

Not so much on this issue, because people know what a powerful lobby NRA is. It's kind of hard to portray Dean as unelectable if you want to use this for bait.

[billbuckhead]

19. What's Dean's stand on the NRA blacklist or Ted Nugent's blatherings?

No other 2004Dem has "noted" their "A"'s from the NRA or anything like it. To start their campaigns, Kerry came out strongly against the NRA and General Clark strongly came out for the AWB. I guess being war heros enters into this paradigm.

[janx]

21. Why should Dean give a statement on Ted Nugent's blatherings?

What possible purpose would that serve?

And Dean doesn't pander to the NRA. The NRA liked him because he had a lot of gun owners (hunters) in his state. These aren't men and women running around with AK-47s or something.

Have you ever spent time in Vermont?

As for the AWB--do you know anything about Dean's view on the subject? He has made it clear. I suggest you check it out.

[billbuckhead]

24. Nugent's on the board of directors of the group that endorsed Dean

Dr Dean is trying to have it both ways. He "notes" their endorsment but doesn't comment on their record of intolerence. I thought Dean was going to talk about race to white people, seems like a hell of an opportunity. I think the reality of Dean's states rights type postion is that Dean's last Confederate flag flap came up when was talking about guns.
BTW, here in metro Atlanta, we have a huge amount of pickup trucks, hundreds of thousands of them and I've never seen a pickup with a Dean sticker.

[janx]

35. The NRA endorsed Dean?!

They wanted support from his state when he was governor.

Please show some kind of evidence that they endorsed Dean. Otherwise, this is pure speculation on your part.

[billbuckhead]

40. The A rating Dean "notes" he got from the NRA is not a endorsement?

If an "A" rating isn't a defacto endorsement, why is Dean "noting" it? Talk about about parsing language. With pink tutu pandering like this, no wonder the Dean candidacy is losing badly even with more money than the other candidates. And don't forget about that huge populace of proNRA voters out there. They must have trouble finding the voting booths.

[janx]

45. Show me an endorsement and show me where Dean "noted" it.

If you can't, then this thread really doesn't mean much.

[Eloriel]

66. No, an A rating is not the same thing as an endorsement

For one thing, the rating is probably given by the 501(c)(3) organization and it's expressly forbidden by IRS rules to advocate for or against any candidate or party. Endorsements come from the PAC -- the 501(c)(5) arm of the NRA. Ratings based on record or responses to questionnaires are for "educational" purposes for the membership.

It is NOT the same as an endorsement.

[Eloriel]

61. I have heard him (on TV too) diss the leadership of the nat'l NRA

And he went on to point out, rightfully so, that the state organizations still do a lot of good, and the example he used is how they helped him preserve habitat in Vermont -- after all, you can't hunt if the huntee doesn't have habitat.

I'm not a big gun lover, tho once I moved to rural Georgia (from Stone Mountain, Bill), I came to realize that you will NEVER separate people who live in rural areas from their guns. Never. And IMO it's foolhardy to try. That's not to say I don't support some gun restrictions, I absolutely do. Pretty much like Dean, I think.

So the first time I ever heard Dean's position on guns, I thought to myself, "Wow. That's brilliant. It's pragmatic (a Dean signature quality), workable, and even better, it takes the whole issue off the table.

You can certainly differ with him, with me, with whomever. But the REALITY is that Dean's position is the one that works. Like so much else he comes up with, it's doable. I think that's a winning position and a winning message, myself.

[billbuckhead]

63. Any links because I've been looking and can't find antiNRA Dean quotes

:)

[Eloriel]

68. No, and I hope you aren't implying I am a liar?

I did hear it myself -- unfortunately, I don't even remember whose show it was on. Possibly (possibly!) the hour-long interview he did (with who??? can't remember) during the week after Iowa. Not the one with Dr. Judy with Diane Sawyer, but wasn't there another?

Sorry, Maybe someone else will remember. In the meantime, Bill, please do go making wild allegations saying that (a) he has an endorsement from the national NRA and (b) he hasn't spoken out against the loonies that run the national organization.

[janx]

55. There is some irony in your screen name on this topic, you know.

:smoke:

[genius]

6. Maybe Charleton Heston will vote for Dean.

Oh, that's right. Heston's a right-wing Republican.

[NashVegas]

10. And We Can All Defend Our Constitution with a Stronly-Worded Petition

..

[billbuckhead]

26. I thought the Constitution was more powerful than guns?

If guns made men free, Afghanistan would be the freest place on the planet.

[janx]

37. That is a very weak argument, Bill.

And I think you know it.

[Fescue4u]

41. Good point!, wrong conclusion

The freest country on the planet is still America (despite Bush's doings), AND we have by far the largest number of guns, both in % per household and raw numbers.

Yes indeed, guns do make men Free. America is the #1 example.

[billbuckhead]

65. No nation with the highest incarceration rate of advanced nations

could be the freest nation by very definition. Reporters without borders rated the USA behind over thirty other nations for press freedom. We can't even show a girls boob on TV. It's obvious that America isn't so free.

[Eloriel]

69. I am okay with not showing a WOMAN'S "boob," as you call it,

on TV. Little sexist there, bud. Janet Jackson hasn't been a "girl" for quite a few years now. And peronsally I think you're confusing "freedom" with "license."

[janx]

73. So what does that have to do with Dean's position on firearms?

Just curious.

[LoZoccolo]

7. Hey there!

:hi:

[mzmolly]

8. Uhm, so???

:shrug:

I have bigger fish to fry. Drugs are illegal, it didn't prevent me from getting them in the back of my highschool over the lunch hour. And, were talkin *cough* 20 years ago.

[lastknowngood]

9. I'm not a memeber ot NRA

the National Redneck Assoiation but if the repugnants remain in power after November then you better be armed. The economey will crash and it will be a free for all.

[Straight Shooter]

13. I really dislike guns but I would also advocate Dean's position

He seems to be, if I'm not mistaken, on the side of states' rights in deciding gun laws. I am decidedly in favor of states deciding by their citizens' votes how their laws will be applied.

But then again, I'm in Oregon. Pretty darn independent-minded state.

[stickdog]

14. The "smoking gun" quote you chose not to reproduce.

"I come from a very rural state," said Dean, who noted an A rating from the National Rifle Association and said he opposed additional federal gun control regulations. "Let Michigan decide how much gun control it wants."

This is Dean's stance. It always has been Dean's stance. I happen to agree with him, and I think Kerry will get KILLED in Southern and rural states because he's made himself a giant target for gun owners.

[billbuckhead]

17. Gee, Deans done so well with this message. It's won him...what state?

Where did Dean finish in South Carolina? Oklahoma? Iowa? New Hampshire? Where does this overwhelming NRA vote kick in? Maybe Wyoming?
BTW, the only reason I didn't include the link was because I was afraid the address was too long. The GunGuys link sure didn't keep anyone from finding the whole article I guess because neither the GunGuys or myself intended to hide the article.

[janx]

25. So Dean is supposed to formulate policy based on the states

he wants to win?

Dean's gun policy is wise and solid. It's based on principle rather than politics. (What an idea, eh?)

[billbuckhead]

27. Dean has to win some state besides Vermont to be the nominee

Ironically, Dean "notes" that being from a rural state, is his reason for not riling up the NRA crowd, not any big intellectual reason he ever elaborates on. For all intents and purposes, Dean gives credit for his position............. tooooooooo politics.

[janx]

34. Link, please? Or are you getting this from the right wing source?

I've heard him speak about this on more than one occasion. He does live in a predominantly rural state in which people hunt. Other states are not like that.

He realizes this and formulates gun policy accordingly.

Where, exactly, can you fault him for that?

[billbuckhead]

48. GunGuys is linked to Buzzflash

Check it out.<http://www.buzzflash.com/>
Not very right wing, the last I looked.

[janx]

54. Its merely being linked to another site (for whatever purpose)

does not add to its credibility.

[stickdog]

64. And Kerry's won which Southern states so far?

Just wondering.

[Eloriel]

72. That would be a viable criticism IF

* that were the only thing, or even the main thing, Dean is running on

* the playing field had been level up til now. The media pile-on, the dirty tricks and dirty politics of the other campaigns, the solidarity in opposing Dean by ALL "the Establishment," including the DNC, DLC, GOP, AND corporate media prevented that. NO ONE who is being intellectually honest can view that week or more of over 900 showings of a completely out-of-context clip from his Iowa speech -- just that one thing alone -- and tell me that Dean has had a level playing field.

One thing for sure: Dean isn't LOSING on his gun policy. He may not be WINNING on it right now, but that's not what has contributed to his losses. Frankly, i think most reasonable people who actually prefer more gun control than Dean does still tend to think his position has merit.

[not systems]

18. I support Dean's stand on guns but not Kerry's.

Also would never join the NRA.

[DrFunkenstein]

28. Can You Elaborate?

It would be nice.

[not systems]

74. I think gun laws should be decided by the states.

I see no reason to change federal law from what it is now.

I think state law is up to the states.

I support California's law but do not demand Nevada or other states do the same.

I will not mingle one position on states rights with another and do not
think praying in schools or desegregation should provide model for guns.

I support the current Federal laws and states rights, clear?

[nancyharris]

22. Isn’t it true

That if Burlington, Vermont had a population of 1.5 million and hundreds of handgun murders a year, Governor Dean would be the NRA’s worst nightmare?

[WillyT]

29. LOL !!! --- Damn, I Thought Y'all Weren't Worried About Dean Any More !!!

Is he catching up or something?

:wtf:

[billbuckhead]

31. I'm just throwing Dean out there as a cautionary tale to proNRA Dems

running for national office. Kerry forcefully spanked the NRA in his announcement speech while Dean has played footsie with them for over a decade.

[janx]

50. Apparently somebody's worried about him.

?

[billbuckhead]

67. I'm just pointing out the proof in the pudding. The NRA "A"'s have

done Dean no good. In fact it helped get him mired the Confederate flag thing.
<http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/01/elec04.prez.dean.confederate.flag/>

[janx]

75. Are you worried about him?

It sounds that way.

[NashVegas]

77. Nor Have They Done Him Harm

We have more important things to worry about than the NRA in this election. Regardless, if Dean is the nominee, this is one thing that Bush & Rove can't hit him with.

[janx]

78. Right--because Dean takes the division away.

It's so nice to have some decent sense.

[farmbo]

30. Er...sorry. We (Dems) did not loose MI in 2K due to the gun issue.

Gore won Michigan on a gun regulation platform. So Dean's taking a big risk by articulating his lifelong support of the NRA.

Your point? Oh...let me guess.

You're looking for any excuse to bash Dean.

Pile on brother.

What comes around goes around.

[billbuckhead]

33. That's kind of my point.Sucking up to the gun crowd is a losing stategy

for Dems. Dr Dean is using a REPUBLICAN wedge issue in the hopes of winning a minority of Dems who are for reasonable regulation of guns. The point is, where are all those NRAcrowd votes for Dean? If they don't materialize in the primary, how can they ever be hoped for in the general election. Dean is proving that proNRA Dems and NRA voters in open primaries while as loud as any squeaky wheel are in reality, a weak constituentcy.

[farmbo]

38. Dean's supported gun rights his whole life...he's not changing now.

It's called Integrity.

And it will swing West Virginia, Arkansas and possibly Kansas and Tennessee if the Democrats are savvy enough to nominate Dean and take that morsel off the GOP table.

[billbuckhead]

42. Actually, Dean has tried to embrace the assault weapons ban when

he thought it would help him.

[janx]

52. Please show us where Dean has embraced the assault

weapons ban.

If you start a thread and make these accusations, the least you can be prepared to do is to back them up.

[billbuckhead]

56. Here's one from Iowa and a real official looking one

<http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4789004/22649906.html>
And this one looks really official< http://www.votebyissue.org/primary/issue.asp?i=37>
Google Dean and AWB and you'll also see for yourself Kerry has been beating Dean over the head with dean;s shameless pandering and waffling about gun issues for months.

[janx]

58. "Kerry criticizes Dean's gun views"

Nope. That's not what I asked for.

[farmbo]

60. Dean supports gun owner's rights, but not necessarily the NRA...

...party line.

[Fescue4u]

43. I agree but the converse is not true.

I do think that suck up to the gun civil rights crowd is a losing strategy (or neutral at best), however villify gun owners is a sure way to lose. Just ask Gore or a large number of senators/congressmen in 94

[JNelson6563]

32. smart move Dean

Michigan is full of gun nuts who hate Dems who "want to take their guns away".

Too bad you had to quote such a shit source though. Isn't there some rule about that?

Julie

[Duder]

39. Dean's position is the best by far...

... especially when it comes to the general election. Actually there's a few Democrats that have received "A's" from the NRA, Warner in Virginia for one. Gephardt received "A's" until a couple of years before he first ran for president in 88. Kerry could very well go down in flames in the GE, some feel the gun control issue cost Gore.

However, Dean's no Heston as implied by some of the gun control crazies here... On Gun Control, Dean Aims for the Center

[billbuckhead]

44. It's such a good strategy, he hasn't won a single state even having more

resources and been campaigning longer than any other candidate.

[OutlawCorporatePolls]

47. remember king's mountain

...is all i will say on this topic...


King's Mountain Battleground, SC
http://www.nps.gov/kimo/

[billbuckhead]

53. Remember the Civil War? St Valentines day massacre? Guns are all over

history. If guns made men free, Afghanistan would be the freest place on earth and Hawaii would be a gulag.

[janx]

57. I think you said that before

in this thread. :smoke:

[billbuckhead]

62. That's cause I never get a rebuttle to it. Guns don't make men free

and the NRA crowd never proves it. In fact the current trend in the world is for less bloody or even bloodless revolutions. South Africa, Russia, Iran for examples.

[janx]

70. This isn't even a nice try.

This is pretty funny.

[janx]

71. Remember Kennesaw Mountain! Ask Bill about that.

LOL!

[Duder]

49. And you think the reason is the gun issue?

I don't think that's been the problem in the primary but guns could be an issue in the GE when you're looking for the independent vote.

[TheDonkey]

79. Gun vote is important, NRA is NOT!!

The NRA could give a damn about a gun lovin' Democrat. They'll pull (R) by reflex.

[Zomby Woof]

80. handguns are made for killin'

They ain't no good for nothin' else.

So why don't know we dump 'em all, people
To the bottom of the sea

Before some ol' fool come around here
And wanna shoot either you or me?

RVZ, 1975