Dean/Clark/Edwards Supporters - I Think We're Up Against the Country Now

[stopbush]

As you all know, I've been a pretty staunch Deanie supporter on these boards. I've taken my shots at Kerry, and he's clearly down my list of candidates I would actually support financially and work for - he'll get my vote, but not much else.

But I must say that in my talks with people who are planning on voting Dem or are leaning Dem or ABB (especially a number of seniors), I'm getting a real sense that they want this primary over, and over soon. Why? Because they are fed up with bush and are ready to give their vote to our candidate and - more importantly - they want to align themselves NOW and get behind ONE guy. Most don't care if it's Kerry or Edwards. I get the strong sense that they expect it to be Kerry but wouldn't have any problems with Edwards. They see Dean and Clark as finished and the others as footnotes to a campaign season that has dragged on too long.

They don't see Kerry as a midget candidate and in fact, I've had a few people tell me that the more bush fucks up, the more they like Kerry, even though they don't really know much about his record or positions. That's a great sign that bush may well lose in a landslide, but it's a bad omen if you're a Dem and Kerry hasn't been your main man.

There was another thread on the boards tonight titled "Kerry's train has left the station." I think a more-important thought is that bush's ship has sailed. The country has quickly moved through bush fatigue and has embraced bush's demise. Even repigs are screaming and the national polls already show that bush is done, done done. Believe me, by November, bush's numbers will be so low that it will be a cakewalk because nothing is going to get better in Iraq or the economy and the public now realizes that EVERYTHING bush is doing now is purely for political reasons. By November, they'll have extrapolated those feelings back to everything bush has done over the past three years, and with the Dems hammering him and growing in strength, it will all be over save the gloating.

I don't mean to be a big wet blanket here (I continue to work for Dean and will until he quits), but this thing I'm sensing is bigger than all of us right now, and I don't think that Kerry can be stopped, now, or in November. We should be working to have our positions included in the platform for the fall and using our heads and not necessarily our hearts, if not now, then when we each realize the inevitability of the ticket this fall.

Only last week I was opining that I hoped all the candidates would stay in as long as possible. Now, I'm afraid that would only serve to reinforce the "Dems are not unified and squabbling" idea that has been out there all too long. It's a little like having a football team that is fired up and dying to hit the field to take on the opponent only to wait while the management decides who's going to be the head coach. I think the country is ready to follow our head coach *right now,* champing at the bit, in fact. Good news...if bittersweet.

Flame away if you wish.

[incapsulated]

1. You got the memo!

Please cease from all voting and grassroots activities immediately. The nominee has been chosen and we no longer need your much valued "input". Your cooperation in this matter is greatly appreciated. You may pick up your Kerry buttons, bumper stickers and other paraphernalia at your nearest indoctrination station.

See you in November!

Terry McAuliffe

[stopbush]

4. As I stated, I'm still working for MY guy.

My observations arise from speaking with people and friends who aren't political junkies, from speaking to people who are generally not involved in politics but do vote. I believe that if these people were involved like some of us are, that the Dem campaign would still be wide open. But they're not - they've already decided ABB, they now want to see a united Dem party quickly because they know we need unity to take down the bastards.

So, like I said, flame away.

[incapsulated]

8. Why bother then?

I'm not "working for my guy" to amuse myself. As long as he's got a chance, even if it's slim, I'm going for the win. I'm not conceding anything, your anecdotal stories notwithstanding.

Why work for Dean if it's hopeless?

[stopbush]

13. Why work for Dean if it's hopeless?

What's that line from Miracle on 34th Street? "The lost causes are the only causes that are really worth fighting for."?

Hey, hope springs eternal, and I feel a sense of obligation to Dean for what he has meant to each and every Dem in this campaign and to his country. It took a lot of guts to do what he did, bashing bush while others cowered. We Deanie's may be sailing on the political Titanic, but as long as I'm in the band, I'm gonna play my charts until the high water washes over the decks.

[xxqqqzme]

34. U know, at our MeetUp Wednesday

we had 9 new people - there were 10 new faces at another, so Dean is STILL attracting voters w/ his grassroots message and enthusiasm. I want him 2 stay in until California (Plus I am supposed 2 meet Howard on the 22nd!) cuz kerry had no organization out here at all. His supporters don't even know where his caucus is on Sunday!!!!

edit:add I told a fellow dean supporter earlier 2day - I will vote 4 kerry but my energy and money will not transfer. I do not believe kerry can beat squatter. We have yet 2 C what guns saurov and hughes will wheel out to aim @ the dem nominee. Plus if the whorporate media transfers the Gore slashing 2 kerry, and the rigged polling and the 24/7 squatter adulation plus.......which I am Xpecting, watch out! It is gonna B ugleeeee!

[buckeye1]

40. Dean did nothing for me.

Do as you will but Dean did nothing for me or the many who didn't vote for him. If Dean can actually win something I will change my mind.

[MAlibdem]

57. That's sort of funny

Because my friend only began supporting Kerry just before IA, when most people (myself included), didn't think he would get the nom.

My friend has a penchant for embracing "lost causes", he follows charisma and romantic ideals, his past favorites were Nader ("I'm a Nader Raider") and McCain.

[Jerseycoa]

5. You're supposed to be in bed ;)

Don't you just love being steamrolled? :grr:

[stopbush]

7. I'm in Vegas...it's not even 1 AM here.

What are you doing up?

[NV1962]

15. Hi um, neighbor!

Reno here...

I think we can agree on the overwhelming pressure to lie down and accept the "inevitability" of a Kerry/Edwards ticket.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work for me. That "inevitability" meme reeks of a lame polevault atop the prior "electability" (another code word, i.e. "we monopolize crystal ball gazing!")

So now, it's not only "screw you, 90% of the Democratic voters!" but also "lie low and pretend you like it."

Sorry, must be my Spanish background but... Think red cape and male cow.

Clark o muerte!

:evilgrin:

[incapsulated]

9. Bed, shmed.

;)

[ShaneGR]

2. I'm an Edwards supporter, and even if my guy doesn't get on the ticket...

I'll still contribute. Yes, I'm for my candidate.

And yes, I don't care if we nominate a ham sandwich. I'm voting for and contributing to and working for that friggin ham sandwich. NO Democrat, and I mean NO! Democrat, is even close to as bad as Bush. Even Lieberman (A War Hawk) was socially liberal enough for me to realize even he was 100 times better than Bush.

They all were/are.

I simply cannot fathom another 4 more years of Bush. And any argument that John Kerry is anything like Bush is completely bogus, IMO, and sounds A LOT like what Nader said about Al Gore and BUsh, which turned out to be COMPLETELY false.

[Eurobabe]

58. tied for first....is that kinda like

Joementum 'tying for third' in NH? Just curious.

[MercutioATC]

3. Well, I have a different take. We should all be supporting our candidates

but we should also have the strategic goal of denying Kerry the delegates necessary to avoid a brokered convention.

For me, Kerry represents what's wrong with this party (and, frankly, Edwards is second on that list only because of his short tenure). We need Dems like Dean, Clark, Kucinich and Sharpton who aren't afraid to stand behind their positions.

The DLC seems to have chosen our nominee. Let's make this a real election again. At the convention, we can decide who REALLY stands for what we believe.

I'd encourage ALL of the candidates' supporters to support your chioce until the convention. Let's let the race run that far, though...

...at the very least, it would send a message to the "party leadership" that we don't like being "handled".

On edit, I think this thread should address Dean, Clark, Kucinich and Sharpton supporters. Edwards might not be able to match Kerry's time in Congress, but he CAN match Kerry's "three bad votes". He doesn't belong in a thread taking issue with Kerry, IMHO.

[politick]

6. Everybody ran

from Dean after Iowa. I've been intrigued by him from the get-go, since I'm from NH, and have known about him for a while. I was planning to vote for him, but after I saw how he was systematically dismantled in the news media after his "meltdown" I knew I'd vote for him.

It's disgusting what they did to him. It's not to say that he should take no blame: he made some stupid mistakes. But he was the front runner for months, being ripped down at every turn, and he had been labeled an unelectable maverick for some time. kerry et al capitalized, and then the landslide started. It's really sad to see his campaign and his odds destroyed so fast. It's unfair. That said, he never should have dumped Trippi. that man was special, and he was creating something special with dean, and it urned me off when he let him go. Anyway, I'd vote for him again if I could. (I'm far too tired to make any sense. Sorry)

[stopbush]

11. I'll be standing up for Dean in our caucuses here on Feb 14.

Maybe he'll win one this week and I'll feel more energized toward the guy who is just what we need now (that's why he was attacked so fiercely by the establishment), but the sentiments I get from the non-junkies are very different. They're increasingly on our side. They even say good things about Clinton!

What's that Steve Buscemi line in Armageddon? "Embrace the horror!"?

[incapsulated]

12. "Embrace the horror"

How dare you use my favorite line when I'm saving it for the right moment?!?!

:grr:

[stopbush]

14. It's not just the line,

it's the expression on Buscemi's face and the way he delivers the line. :)

[incapsulated]

16. My other favorite is...

"Either one of us stays, or we all stay and die."

"I say we all stay and die. But that's just me."

:)

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

10. Thanks for sharing your observations

What state are you from where you are having these talks?

When you say you get the sense that they want this primary over so they can align behind a candidate NOW and get behind ONE guy, do you get the sense that they have candidate fatigue or is it just that they are only, like you say, fed up with Bush?

I ask because I've been reading here for a few months and I don't have the sense that the general public is as personally involved in the primary process as the people in this forum are, but I don't watch a lot of TV so I don't really know what the general population is getting or if they've been oversaturated for months on end with candidate wars.

[politick]

17. People AREN'T as absorbed

as we are. But they're aware of the primaries. They don't take the time to analyze things for themselves and probe deeper. So they hear everyone's going to vote for the most electable, and dean's unelectable, so it becomes Kerry. Then they hear everyone voted for the person they think can beat Bush, which is Kerry. Eventually, dean fades into the background, is depiceted as a wary and desperate fallen has-been, and ALL they see is Kerry. Anyone giving the news a passing glance sees KERRYKERRYKERRY, the man who can beat Bush, so that;s who they vote for. Dean is like old meat. No one wants to be with a loser. And with the compressed primary system, there's no time for hiim to cool down, or for voters to take a closer look. Its a shame because the primary system is supposed to allow everybody to vote for their favorite candidate. I find it hard to believe that Kerry really has that kind of support so early. That he's EVERYONE'S ideal candidate.
We'll still beat Bush, though I think Dean is the best at exciting voters and getting people out, and that's going to be what really counts come November. Anyway...

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

38. Now, I've been around long enough to know better than that

I don't buy this song and dance from Dean supporters that the majority of the voters thus far have selected Kerry because the media told them to. People who participate in primaries are generally more studied about their choices than those who only vote in the general elections.

In fact, the media all but crowned Dean the inevitable nominee for most of the past year. When it came to go to the voting booth, the people REJECTED what the media fed them, examined the candidates, and made their OWN choices.

And here's another fact of life. The winners always get the winners media coverage. The losers get coverage depicting the fact that they lost. In Dean's case, you've got to admit it was quite an implosion. I'm just as surprised as you are. But it's not a conspiracy, it's just a fact of life in politics.

[politick]

41. Conspiracy? No.

It's the nature of the beast. But media coverage DOES taint the way people perceive the candidates. And this primary season is differnet than years past, in that the turnouts are higher almost everywhere. I just think people are TERRIFIED of another 4 years of Bush, and, yes, they are more willing to go with the popular guy.

Dean had been called the front-runner, but it was always with a sort of grin. the Repubs kept saying "Bring Dean on" which to me means they're actually scared of him. And McAulliffe's disdain has been clear all along. Populist candidates are, well, unpopular with some people. The powerful people. So it wasn't an outright conspiracy, but there was a definite bias against him from on high, and the rest is trickle down.

[politick]

44. I just happened on this

"Study: Network News Criticizes Dean Most
Associated Press
-- ship --
LOS ANGELES - Howard Dean received significantly more criticism on network newscasts than the other Democratic presidential contenders, who were the subjects of more favorable coverage, according to a study released Thursday.
More than three-quarters of the coverage of Dean's foes by the nightly news programs was favorable, while a majority of attention to Dean was negative, the Center for Media and Public Affairs found.
--snip--

Researchers examined 187 stories broadcast on the ABC, CBS or NBC evening newscasts in 2003, looking at elements including quoted remarks about candidates and how they were depicted in profiles.
The study found that 49 percent of the coverage of former Vermont Gov. Dean was positive, compared to 78 percent of the rest of the Democratic field, collectively." -- snip --

It was on takebackthemedia, and I couldn't find the orignal link. But I'll check out Center's website.

[NashVegas]

61. Thanks for the Info

I love how people keep talking about all this supposed beautiful coverage on Dean. The reality is something else.

"Democratic frontrunner Howard Dean tripped up a little old lady. News at 11."

[stopbush]

18. I'm in Vegas - Summerlin area. There's a big retirement community

up the road. My wife gets a lot of seniors coming into her shop as well. Seniors are LIVID with bush. First, he decimated all of their savings accounts and stock portfolios, then he went after their health coverage. Now, every time one of these elderly ladies loses her veteran husband to the ravages of time, they see their war-hero husband gone forever while that smirking monkey prances around in a flight suit, preparing to send their grandkids off to die in some god-forsaken hell hole.

These are real feelings that I hear all the time out here. Bush is toast - you can take that to the bank.

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

23. Glad to hear it

Doesn't pay to piss off the seniors!

[abracadabra]

19. the fix is in

It really doesn't matter what we do.
This is not just my opinion.
They have told us that Kerry will be our candidate so we can go home.
Dean 's speech where they turned down the volume of the crowd succeeded and now they imply he's mental.
They're very reluctant to mention Clark.
Kerry is in with his Bonesman affiliations and corporate ties.
I guess it's better than Boosh but we'd just have to get him out soon enough also if he started playing the same game.

But we won't be given that fine opportunity to elect anyone.
The fix is in and it works--they've tried it several times now and know it works.

http://www.blackboxvoting.com/

The best we could do would be to get a serious hacker to hack a ZERO total--this would fix their fix--
Nothing else will work.
Nothing-not raising issues- not promoting candiates- not exposing all the truth about Boosh.
They are already trying to promote the idea that maybe Boosh will win because of this religious connection or Fatherland security issue or something (just to pad the outrage when they hack the polls).

This is a totalitarian regime that pretends to be a free democracy.
Get yer guerilla groove on!! that is unless you want your kids to be enslaved by the rich greedy slimy top .01% income bracket.They want the world and they are nearly getting it now.

We won't let them will we?

[eileen_d]

20. I have an opinion

You wrote:
It really doesn't matter what we do. This is not just my opinion.

Yes, it is just your opinion. (That's just my opinion.)

[politick]

21. nothing surprises me

anymore, abra. Especially with this group of thieves. it's crazy how prescient Orwell and Rousseau and Dick (Phillip K.) really were. In a way, I'm rooting for catastrophe. At least something would be going on.

[stopbush]

22. Unfortunately, we got catastrophe in 2000.

Maybe we should try anarchy this time 'round?

[politick]

24. Anarchy's tough

with 290 million peeps. I'm willing to try, though...

[incapsulated]

25. Trust me...

It sounds like a lot more fun than it really is.

[NV1962]

26. Speaking of which...

I'm getting close to approaching the Dean Team here, and see if we can pull a bigger muscle together to rouse people into the caucus.

Can you imagine this: "Hi, we'd like you to come to the Democratic caucus here, and... Oh, you're interested in hearing more about Howard Dean? Sec, I'll give you my colleague here... Okay, then I'll take that other call about Clark..."

Oy.

But it's itching, innit?

[incapsulated]

27. nah

We would rather go down in flames alone than join hands with the Peoples Front of Judea!

Splitters!

[NV1962]

29. Judean Liberation Front Forever!

Say Nay!

LOL

[incapsulated]

31. We have to come together against the *real* enemy! ;^) n/t

[NV1962]

35. Yes! Roman's go homes! - n/t

[MercutioATC]

30. We might be approaching that point. This is a question of what direction

we want the party to pursue. Do we want the status quo or do we want change? Dean, Clark, Kucinich and Sharpton represent change. I'd love to seen Dean be the nominee and I'll support him to the end, but I also believe that:

1) ANY of the Dem candidates are better than Bush.

2) ANY of the other Dem candidates are better than Kerry and Edwards.

THAT'S how I'll vote.

[politick]

33. and ANY of them

can beat Bush. Hands down. Or at least, below the waist ;)

[incapsulated]

36. Well, if Kerry *does* win

Clark had better get a cabinet seat. I'm talking Sec. of State type seat.

Or..

Else.


"That shows what one well-trained, highly motivated marine can do!"

[Old and In the Way]

43. Awesome SecDef, IMHO

Pentagon reform is a huge priority in the coming years. Clark should fire Meyer's ass and root the neoconic imperialists out. Then take on the SDI fiasco and slim down the military to fight non-national terrorists, not 3 theater wars against missing enemies.

I'd like to see everyone of the candidates be a major players of the next Democratic administration. They all have unique skills, experience, and attributes that will serve this country well as we repair the damage of the Bush years.

[incapsulated]

49. No, never Sec of Defense

There is enough bad blood and old rivalries there to start a small war. That's the way it usually is when someone rises to the top and he already had the big fallout with the SOD in Kosovo. He could never achieve anything there, and it would be a waste of his talents.

Clark received the endorsements of 55 U.S. Ambassadors and Diplomats. He has earned a lot of respect in Europe for what he achieved in Kosovo, the Dayton peace talks and NATO. He speaks four languages! If Powell can be Sec of State, Clark most certainly can.

[Old and In the Way]

55. He'd make an awesome Secretay of State as well.

For all of the reasons you stated. But a true Pentagon reformer is more critical, IMHO, then repairing our international image. There are many who can accomplish the latter well. But there are precious few who have the resume, experience, and the guts to drive reform in the Pentagon. Clark has the tools to do this well.

[newyawker99]

45. Hi abracadabra!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[pa28]

28. Things can change in a hurry

Just as the Kerry supporters who kept working when everybody who "mattered" had written him off you have to take a leap of faith. Clark jumped into the lead to be torn down by the media. Dean was built up by the media then torn down and now Kerry is getting the same treatment. Those of us who care enough to spend time on behalf of our candidates have to ride the ride all the way to the end and believe in the very real possibility the dynamics will change in a way that favors our man.

[stopbush]

37. I've been through a lot of elections since 1972, this one feels

different.

People are actually paying attention much, much earlier in the process. The war going south, the no WMD, the immigration fiasco have all added up to a giant wake up call for the country. The truth is that the country woke up to the bush disaster and the Dem primaries just as Kerry was surging. With our national short attention span, they've already seen all they need to see: Kerry can beat bush, let's roll!

Maybe I'm too much of a realist. I remember back in 1984 standing down in the garment district in NYC while Mondale gave his stump speech to a heavily union crowd. The debates had already taken place, and Reagan had "won." There was sort of a forced enthusiasm from the crowd, but you just knew the die was cast.

That's the feeling I'm getting for the non-Kerry campaigns these days.

I'm off to bed. Thanks for chatting.

[eileen_d]

32. No flames from me

I think the thesis (am I using that word correctly? it's late) that voters are eager to unify behind a single alternative to Bush, simply because they are anxious to replace Bush, is quite plausible.

But I don't think Kerry's got it sealed yet, although he's in a great position now.

[Leilani]

39. I've always prided myself on the fact

that I don't do group think. As a matter of fact, when people tell me what I should do, I become more convinced of my own opinion.

So I really don't care what the conventional wisdom is today on the primary race. I have a candidate; When the General tells me the war is over, then I will disband.

[TheBigDemo]

42. I will not jump ahead that far

In politics, a week is a life time. Things change quickly. Dean was the absolute nominee in early January. I think it is possible for one of the other three candidates to win against Kerry if Kerry gets hammered and two of the three, Dean, Edwards, Clark, drops out.

For all we know, Clark might strike a deal with Edwards for a Edwards/Clark ticket. That would give the entire South to Edwards. And why would that not be in the best interests of Clark and Edwards? Or the party to have two strong Dems from the south.

I do agree, that Kerry/Edwards or Kerry/Clark or Kerry/Bayh are looking to be most likely. But do not be surprised if it is not.

James K.

[arewethereyet]

46. people are generally tired of it as it started way too early

A calculated risk by Dr Dean to advance the timing of things has made for almost a year's worth of all this. I can understand people's feelings on this.

This is in large part fueling Kerry's roll.

[incapsulated]

47. Totally disagree

Only diehard political junkies and activists have been paying attention to this race for more than a few months.

It amazes me when calling people how little they follow the whole thing until the last minute. This "they are sick of it, it's too long" is another ploy to get us to shut up and get on the bandwagon.

[arewethereyet]

48. people in general have a low tolerance for politics

just because they're ignoring it does not mean that they do not note that every news program mentions something about it.

they are, IMO, sick of it.

[incapsulated]

50. Well, I guess we should just let the DNC decide for us

if we are that impatient with the process?

[arewethereyet]

53. thats pretty much how it works right or wrong

getting angry certainly didn't make any difference. getting positive can, and might. realizing that the people are unlikely to change their focus will keep us from going nuts.

same as it ever was.

[incapsulated]

54. The main reason

For this rush to anoint a candidate is McAuliffe and the DNC with their frontloaded primaries. It wasn't always this way. Clinton could start winning in the middle, rather than the start of the primaries and take it all in the end. Not this way.

Getting him out his my next priority after Bush.

[bain_sidhe]

51. I'm expecting some "buyers remorse" to set in

before super Tuesday, and I expect my guy to be positioned to be the beneficiary of it. If that doesn't happen, hey, I'm as ABB as the next gal... but I think we'd be blowing our chance at a major realignment that could change the relative positions of the partys for a decade or more... at LEAST long enough for the next round of redistricting. That's a big goal of mine, because as long as these repuke-drawn districts are in force, it's going to be very hard to get the House securely in Dem hands.

[ozone_man]

52. Most people would rather get back to their TV shows.

It's a sad statement about our Democracy, but most people have limited attention spans and would rather watch sports or sitcoms than participate in restoring our Democracy.

It is not the people who are deciding Kerry, it is the establishment media and DNC who are trying to make it appear to be a done deal. 90% of Americans have not yet participated in voting for a candidate. The big states are yet to come and Kerry is a weak candidate who could fall apart easily if the media were not propping him up.

[texasmom]

56. Deja vu!

It's just like in November-December 2000 when so many (unfortunately Republicans, Independents, *and* Democrats) did not have the patience to resolve the Florida election issues---they just wanted it to be over! They were tired of the long, drawn-out election.

Now we just can't wait to have all the primaries and hear from the majority of Democrats in this country. We haven't even been voting a month yet!

I want Bush out as much as or more than the next person. That's why I want the strongest candidate.

[DrFunkenstein]

59. I Stuck With Kerry When He Was Down For The Count

I have the utmost respect for the people who have dedicated so much of themselves to the advocacy of their candidate. I would not presume to tell anyone what to do, but I will say that you are absolutely welcome at the Kerry camp. We do not hold grudges, and would never do anything to make people feel awkward. But if you stick by your candidate in hopes of a turn around, you definitely have my respect.

[mlawson]

60. I think we are up against the DNC (establishment) now.

And have been all along. The timing of the endorsements for Kerry seem scripted to me. And the trickle will turn into a flood, just at the 'right' moment. Those of us who are older have seen this before, with different candidates, but it's the same end in store, probably in November, as well. x(

I suspected for months this would happen, but still I hoped it wouldn't.

[mikehiggins]

62. No good guys. I'm very truly sorry but I think we're done

The turnout in WA was unprecedented, wildly larger and more widespread. And my guy came in ahead of Sharpton and tied with non-committed.

Right or wrong, good bad or indifferent, I think it is over.

The people have spoken, are speaking, and will continue to speak. It is all but impossible for any of the scenarios we've been batting around here to come to pass if Kerry continues to score as high as he does. Any possible chance at winning, or even dragging this out to the convention, requires people coming out and voting for our guy, and that has yet to happen to any great degree.

It is, I believe, more or less over as far as Wes Clark's chances are concerned.

Dean or Edwards still have a chance to get tapped for VP by Kerry but I find that extremely unlikely.

If I was Clark I would graciously withdraw, take whatever is left from the campaign coffers and return to Arkansas and run for Congress or move out to California and spoil the grandkid.

Either way Clark has done his duty as he saw it, and stepped forward to offer his service to the nation. The Democratic primary voters have told him he might just as well have not bothered.

I expect to be accused of being faint of heart, or a summer soldier for giving up but there is no shame in being beaten, only in failing to fight. Looks to me like we were beaten. I leave it to others to decide who it was who did it, whether the DC insiders or the media or the conjunction of the planets. What is not open to question, however, is the fact that things are very bad and are only going to get worse.

If Dean had won in WA or if Clark had come in third I'd have a whole other point of view. They didn't, though, and things being as they are, the message is now clearly written upon the wall.

Kerry's support may be a mile wide and an inch thick but the primary voters have gone wading in regardless.

Let's hope Kerry turns out to be more than I expect him to be.

That wouldn't be hard, of course. Just unlikely.

[mlawson]

63. Re, your last 3 sentences: I have a nightmare...

It's Labor Day 2004, Kerry is behind bush 10 to 15 points, everywhere except MA and NY. It turns out that Kerry's popularity just happened to be peaking during January and February, and then it waned, but the Dem party is committed to him. Now they are all saying, "WHAT WERE WE THINKING???". How horribly sad that would be.

[mikehiggins]

64. All we could hope for would be for the ABB anger to continue and

grow among the voters. The danger Kerry poses to our success cannot be overstressted.

The whole idea of a vets group opposing Kerry is almost a guarenteed subject of attack from the RNC. To give you and idea of that that would be like, here's a link I came across on another list

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/vvajk_pr_05_04.htm

This will be just the first attack of this kind aimed at Kerry. There'll be lots more.