What Should We Do About Torture Support?

[Don1]

It was a sad day in our country's history when our Congress voted to approve torture, approve secret prisons, remove habeas corpus, and enact a retroactive pardon for people committing some of these types of atrocities post-9/11. This new law is called the Military Commissions Act and it was passed by Congress just a couple of days ago. Even in our own party, only 73% of Senators voted against the bill and only 80% of our party in the House voted against it. Technically, additionally, 7 House Democrats abstained from voting, but getting into that level of detail is splitting hairs when one considers the magnitude of this law, the sheer lunacy and the choice to go down some dark, evil path.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll508.xml
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00259

It is good that the vast majority of Democrats stood fast against this atrocity, but we needed more. We needed a filibuster as that not only would have been the moral choice but would have also put a clear distinction in the minds of voters between the parties for this upcoming election. That single act would have stopped torture and would have finally allowed accountability in 2007 in Congress when the Democrats could have called for the investigation of war crimes by this Administration.

What is done is done and we must move on, pick up the pieces and make this horrible thing a learning experience. So, what can we do about the torture support in Congress? What constructive criticism is there that will enable us to still have hope that we can change things for the better? There is still hope...

Send a letter of disapproval to your congressperson if they supported torture and a letter of praise if they voted against it. Talk to your friends, colleagues, relatives, neighbors, and anyone else you are comfortable talking to and tell them not to vote Republican, because 95% of Republicans in Congress voted for this new law. Tell them what is wrong with this law and how it is against American values. Support liberal and progressive organizations within the party because those candidates that these organizations will support will not vote for things like torture. A great example is the Lamont-Lieberman race. MoveOn helped to raise money and get publicity for Ned Lamont to be the Democratic candidate. Meanwhile, Joe Lieberman is busy in the Senate voting for things like this torture bill. After we take the House this upcoming election, support John Conyers to be the new Speaker of the House or the Majority Leader, so that we have even stronger opposition in Congress to the dictatorial regime that President Bush is growing.

[annm4peace]

1. bill of rights on display

I took my program from the John Murtha fundraiser for MN candidate Coleen Rowley, that had the Bill of Rights and Preamble and Constitution on it.
Rowley's opponent, John Kline, is one of the co-sponsor of the Torture bills.

I high-lighted parts relating to what we are losing with this bill and if they asked why I had it out I ask them to read it. I hope it sinks in on election day.

10 of us stood outside of Klines office on a very busy corner for 2 hours with a signs
Kline co-sponsored Torture bill Kline's phone #, and Tell Kline "No" to Torture.

The media was alerted the day before and none showed up.

Another group protested in front of the GOP Sen's office also on a busy street and 1/2 block from local channel news station

[Don1]

4. Good job.

This is a good idea for people. We should all protest like this with signs against the Republicans who supported this law in the same way.

[derby378]

2. A letter of disapproval is not enough - direct action may be needed

By all means, sure, start with a letter of disapproval. Just be aware that the candidate in question may never actually read the letter.

My feeling at this point is that visible pressure must, must, MUST be brought to bear on every Democratic candidate who voted in favor of the torture bill. Hound them at campaign stops and fundraisers and ask them to explain why they think torture is the will of the American people.

I don't want the Democratic candidates defeated in November - but I do want them to recant. It is of paramount importance that they recant during the month of October, even if they can no longer change the bill or how they voted on it. We need a unified Democratic message against torture, and every Democrat who continues to support torture inflicts more damage upon our party than Karl Rove or the Swift-Boat Liars ever could.

[Don1]

5. The problem with this tactic

is that it somewhat aids the Republican in the race. You have to figure out a way around that.

[karynnj]

16. NO NO NO

I don't think hounding them at campaign stops makes sense - what do you think will happen to the local coverage. I don't want to get a RW Republican, masquerading as his more moderate and honorable father, as my Senator in November.

Look at the obvious pain in the posts on the NJ Senators - they are ususally among the best of the best - yet both voted for this. I was at a county fundraiser yesterday where Lautenberg was out helping Menendez. He was asked politely why he voted as he did. His answer (from memory - written a few hours later - so nuances could be missed) was:

"Before Lautenberg spoke to the crowd, I did hear him answer someone else's question on the torture bill. He did say it was a tough decision, but he voted for it because these guys have been held for 5 years and need to be tried. He also said that the Geneva Convention was left untouched and that some of the most horrendus methods of torture were rejected. He thinks it will be found unconstitutional because of Habeus Corpus. (He said they will get a statement on his Senate web site) The Morris County Democratic Record was covering it, so they might have his position on this."

He did say that they would put something on his Senate website. This issue means as much to me as it does to you.

Senator Lautenberg is an exceptionally good Senator, a great person, and he is embarking on many appearances for Menendez. Menendez is in a very tight race where the Republicans are throwing charges that originally came from very disreptuable sources that Menendez is crooked. This is against a backdrop of other Democrats actually being guilty of corruption. Kean in an early debate kind of signalled this as he said that if you see Westfield (a very affluent town), you will know him and that Menendez won't say that about is district. Menendez is from Hudson county - a very urban, multi-ethnic county, where there was corruption -- That Menendez fought!

So, in hounding Lautenberg and Menendez, you may lose Menendez - one of about a dozen Senators who voted for Kerry/Feingold and for the Alito filibuster and get Kean. This is a state that we do not need to lose - so even if Menendez was not as good as he is, I would vote for him because it could mean control of the Senate.

[rosesaylavee]

3. Link to Dems voting for this atrocious bill

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=78910279&blogID=173841943&Mytoken=4CB1799F-31B4-4852-BE16299A7E34D6EC46186499

Found this yesterday on DU...

I would suggest an email to each telling them how this will effect you and your family even tho you may not be in their state.

Cowards and bastards all.

[Don1]

6. It is also important

to send emails to the Republicans. When the Republicans get pressured, their lockstep voting breaks and this gives the Democrats who may be in tough districts more leeway to vote against them.

[rosesaylavee]

7. I would like to think that...

used to think that... Not saying its not so but I live in a very red part of a blue state and I don't see any remorse, any regret on the direction we are going.

BUT, I will try that too. There may be some rational thinking still on the other side of the aisle.

[Don1]

8. You're right in that there is no remorse by Republicans.

The best reason to send them letters and emails is to scare them about retaining their jobs. If a couple in the whole Congress choose to defect over a bill or two because of that, then we will have done our jobs.

[Lost Nation]

9. How will this work?

It's hard to imagine how legitimate torture will work. Take for example "water boarding".

Water boarding "beds" will have to be built. Will we have them built in prisons like the Govt. has it's office furniture made in prisons?

Will we establish schools for how to torture correctly? Govt. handbooks on torture?

Since the argument for water boarding is that is does not do any permanent physical damage
as long as you let them have some air before they die, can this same logic be applied to
other forms of torture?

Could we rape female "terrorists" as long as the torturer uses a condom for example? Hey,
no permanent physical damage done.

How about raping the a suspects wife or children while he's forced to watch? Guess as long
as no physical damage is done, that's ok?

[Don1]

10. There are lots of forms of torture allowable.

For example tying people up and making them defecate on themselves like has happened already. The new law has a retoactive pardon for all those occurences. Rape and sexual contact, though, are specifically disallowed by the new law. You asked "Will we establish schools for how to torture correctly? Govt. handbooks on torture?" Yes, there will be some kind of manual on interrogation techniques which do not violate the strict definition of torture that they came up with. Things like making someone strip down to nothing, putting a bag over their head, and having a German shepherd bark ferociously while the torturer shoots off a gun and pokes needles in the victim will be okay.

A better question is what are the checks and balances to ensure people are not being raped if all the military prisons are secret and their is next-to-no judicial oversight? and why is there only one branch of government left pretty much?

P.S. Welcome to DU!

[PassingFair]

28. That will be up to the "Decider" now, Sir!

Welcome to DU!

[rosesaylavee]

11. Do you know where I could find a list

of Republican Senators who voted for this?

[Don1]

12. sure, no prob.

Alexander (R-TN)
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Bennett (R-UT)
Bond (R-MO)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Burr (R-NC)
Chambliss (R-GA)
Coburn (R-OK)
Cochran (R-MS)
Coleman (R-MN)
Collins (R-ME)
Cornyn (R-TX)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
DeMint (R-SC)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dole (R-NC)
Domenici (R-NM)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Frist (R-TN)
Graham (R-SC)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Hatch (R-UT)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Isakson (R-GA)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
Martinez (R-FL)
McCain (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Roberts (R-KS)
Santorum (R-PA)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-OR)
Specter (R-PA)
Stevens (R-AK)
Sununu (R-NH)
Talent (R-MO)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thune (R-SD)
Vitter (R-LA)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)

[rosesaylavee]

14. 53 emails going out today.

Thanks for the names.

[Don1]

15. You are awesome. n/t

[Lost Nation]

17. Thanks

Thanks for the welcome Don1.

The torture thing finally pushed me over the edge.

I call myself a libertarian but have voted Republian in the national elections
since Reagan.

I have always been able to convince myself that the Republicans were the lesser
evil. Being pro-gun and against forced redistribution of wealth has generally
put be me odds with most liberals.

However, over the last few years I have seen links to threads on DU on a number
of pro-gun sites where DU posters who are so afraid at what they are seeing happening
in this country that they are starting to have doubts about the parties
anti-gun stance. I still believe that the ultimate protection against
governments gone bad is the individual right to bear arms.

I may not agree with liberals on a lot of things but if it comes down
to taxes or torture... I'll pay more taxes.

Congratulations. You've just become the new lesser evil.

Bush Co. must go.

[Don1]

18. Welcome aboard.

Believe it or not I agree with you about guns. In fact, so do about half the Democrats I know. I don't understand really how this is a party issue in consideration of Thomas Jefferson, Democratic Party founder who said, "A citizen's right to bear arms is the last defense against tyranny in government." As a progressive, I support all of the amendments in the Bill of Rights, not just the first, fourth, fifth, and eighth that Bush has broken, but I also support the 2nd amendment. I am proud to have you on board, standing with us against this tyranny.

[rosesaylavee]

20. Welcome to DU

I am not so sure that there will be so much an increase in individual taxes. My hope is that if DEMs win the majority that corporations may be asked to pay their fair share (some don't pay ANY taxes with our current corporate welfare system) and perhaps given enducements to stop sending jobs overseas.

[gulliver]

13. Win the election.

[welshTerrier2]

19. exactly ...

win the election by showing Americans what Democrats believe; don't lose them by showing Americans we'll do or say anything to get elected ...

[welshTerrier2]

21. great post!!! k&r !!

it's important to recognize, as the OP did, that a MAJORITY of Dems in both the House and the Senate voted against this atrocity ... but it's also fair to point out that when the ugly face of fascism appears in the halls of Congress, Democrats, as a party, need to stand up with all the power they can legally bring to bear on the process ... i agree with the OP that Dems should have tried to filibuster the torture bill ...

this would have elevated the awareness of the American people about what is happening in the Congress ... Dems cannot afford to be "obstructionists" and force a confrontation every time they disagree; when the issue is condoning torture, however, it seems to me they have to draw a hard and fast line with no equivocation ...

great post, Don1 ... k&r ...

[Don1]

22. Thanks! n/t

[Delphinus]

23. How about ...

anyone who voted FOR the bill gets to be tortured? If they thought they would EVER be on the receiving end of this, they would have not voted for it.

[IndianaGreen]

24. I like the idea of challenging Pelosi for Speaker

Pelosi took impeachment off the table. If Bush's crimes are not impeachable offenses, then nothing is.

Conyers for Speaker!

Good post, Don1.

[welshTerrier2]

25. this would make a very interesting DU poll ...

maybe it would plant a few seeds ...

just sayin' ...

by the way, read an article today (planted??) that Hoyer has picked up many of the liberals in his race for the Whip position ... the article said Murtha was having problems building a base of support ...

[Don1]

26. Thanks.

Yeah, Conyers for Speaker.

[niallmac]

27. I have written to four of the Senators so far.

It is exhausting to address each one about a subject I cannot believe
or comprehend.

Why did they vote for this bill? Do they have a reason
that squares with the principals and ideals of the
Democratic Party?

(Holy Joe excepted as he is a self serving non Democrat Neocon)

[Don1]

29. I would guess three reasons.

(1) Fear of being called weak on national security when they live in a district/state with a lot of reds; (2) Thought this was the best that they could get from this administration and wanted to pass something before the bill got worse again, like it was before; (3) There was a tremendous amount of pressure to get it passed in a little amount of time and so they may not had time to review all the last-minute amendments and they may have substituted that understanding with an assumption that the Republican revolt over it led by McCain was forthright.

I do not like any of these answers, but we need to move forward. Hopefully, my suggestions on how to do that will enable us to make this into a learning experience. And hopefully, we can do our small part to help improve the party. Thank you for doing your part by writing to Congress. Maybe next we can help get Conyers into a leadership position when the Dems take the House.

[niallmac]

30. Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

The idea you mention that possibly time constraints etc prevented a full reading of the bill by the Senators
in question is a really sad and awesome thing to consider partly because it seems so plausible.
Imagine all the blood sweat and tears spent on achieving the status of Senator of the United States
and suddenly realizing you voted for something that may brand your reputation in history irrevocably.

[Don1]

31. It is sort of like what happened with the USA PATRIOT Act...

Remember Conyers in F9/11 talking about how they didn't even understand it, but were pressured to pass it anyway. It sucks. Well, here's my email:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2858763

[niallmac]

34. I try to get across to my bumper sticker associates your quote:

"...Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me."

People feel like it's all ok because
they are not Enemy Combatants. ...Yet.

[katinmn]

32. Letters are nice but get out on the streets October 5! Go to their offices

It's easy to ignore a letter but it's hard to ignore large groups of unhappy pro-peace, anti-torture constituents.

[Don1]

33. someone else made a similar point.

I think you're right. Protesting is good. Choose a Republican-Democrat debate in your district and show up next to the Republican crowd with a sign that shows how ridiculous they are: "Stay In Iraq. Keep Killing the Troops." or "Torture - A Real Family Value."