Is Foley really guilty of a crime?

[last1standing]

I've been going around with another DUer who feels that the Foley incident is no worse than the Lewinsky scandal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2265964#2266113

I've been saying it's much worse and that the law was broken - he disagrees. In my limited research I've come across Section III, part (7), subsections C, H, and I of H.R. 4472: Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act of 2006 which states as follows:

(7) EXPANSION OF DEFINITION OF ``SPECIFIED OFFENSE AGAINST A MINOR'' TO INCLUDE ALL OFFENSES BY CHILD PREDATORS.--The term ``specified offense against a minor'' means

(C) Solicitation to engage in sexual conduct.
(H) Criminal sexual conduct involving a minor, or the use of the Internet to facilitate or attempt such conduct.
(I) Any conduct that by its nature is a sex offense against a minor.

For the definition of a minor this act refers to TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 117 > § 2422 Coercion and enticement which defines a minor as anyone under the age of 18.

These clauses sound to me like they would cover the IMs and emails Foley sent out even if nothing more is found, but of course, I'm no lawyer and this could all be saying something much different than I think it says. So my question to all the lawyers out there is Did Foley commit a crime based on H.R. 4472 or not? If not, is there another statute that was broken?

[valerief]

1. The boy was FIFTEEN. nt

[princehal]

2. Cite please?

[niyad]

5. what part of this haven't you been paying attention to?

[valerief]

20. Can't find it anymore. Winston Smith has been busy all weekend.

The boy was first reported as 15 when the events occurred and reported that he is 16 now.

[last1standing]

8. Stating he was fifteen doesn't answer the question, though.

I know he was a minor and I believe Foley broke the law. I'm trying to find out if the law agrees with what I think or not.

[valerief]

12. The MSM keeps saying he was 16, which is the age of consent in

DC, which might affect crime status.

[last1standing]

14. But the Walsh act defines a minor as under 18.

Also, he sent some of the emails and IMs from FL which, I think, has an age of consent of 18 as well. So which law overrides which?

[rodeodance]

3. E-mails Show Foley Sought to Rendezvous with Page

Mon Oct-02-06 12:17 PM
Original message
E-mails Show Foley Sought to Rendezvous with Page

E-mails Show Foley Sought to Rendezvous with Page

October 02, 2006 12:14 PM

Brian Ross and Maddy Sauer Report:

Apr_mark_foley_061002_nrIn addition to explicit sexual language, former Congressman Mark Foley's Internet messages also include repeated efforts to get the underage recipient to rendezvous with him at night.

"I would drive a few miles for a hot stud like you," Foley said in one message obtained by ABC News.

The FBI says it has opened a "preliminary investigation" of Foley's e-mails. Federal law enforcement officials say attempts by Foley to meet in person could constitute the necessary evidence for a federal charge of "soliciting for sex" with a minor on the Internet.

...

Maf54: I miss you lots since san diego.
Teen: ya I cant wait til dc
Maf54: :)
Teen: did you pick a night for dinner
Maf54: not yet…but likely Friday
Teen: ok…ill plan for Friday then
Maf54: that will be fun

The messages also show the teen is, at times, uncomfortable with Foley's aggressive approach.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/10/emails_show...

[crikkett]

28. I get a 404 following that link..

can you please check it again? thanks.

[ccpup]

4. from other IMs coming to the surface

it also appears as if Foley met with some of these boys ... and, at fifteen, they are just boys. If Mary Kay Letourneau can go up the river for it, why can't Foley? To answer your question, just think what the Repugs would be saying (and the FBI would be doing) had Foley been a Democrat.

[last1standing]

26. Do you have a link to these IMs?

I'd like to see if they make a more compelling case.

[Journeyman]

6. Glenn Greenwald has covered this extensively. . .

from the standpoint of an attorney (though it is not his specialty):

http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/

Also, read for Joshua Micah Marshall for an exhaustive, yet fair, analysis of the twists and turns thus far:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/

[last1standing]

25. Very good analysis. Thanks.

Greenwald went further than I did and we both come to the same conclusion that according to federal laws it should be illegal. The question we both seem to have is whether the legal systems agrees with us.

[SharonRB]

7. This is very different than Lewinsky

She was a consenting adult.

[last1standing]

11. I agree and have been saying that.

The other party is the one who doesnt' think there's a difference. I'm looking for legal opinions by those who have studied law so I'm not talking out of my ass (any more than I usually do).

[Vickers]

15. And not just a "barely legal" adult...she was 23. A college graduate.

She was 7 years older than this 16 year old boy, or 36% older.

[Fleshdancer]

27. rofl!

"36% older"...I don't know why but that cracked me up. :D

[hippiechick]

9. Internet predator'ing ...

... the have shows on NBC (Dateline) etc all the time about old pervs trying to pick up youngsters via internet chat. They get arrested, why shouldn't Foley?

Just as you cite in your legislation above, its illegal.

And it's also extremely unethical because Foley was in a position of power over these Pages - so really, workplace sexual harassment may be considered too ("Hey, cutie, let my put my hands down your shorts or I won't write you that reference letter for Harvard") ...


:mad: :mad:

[CoffeeCat]

10. Since when....

...is there ANY ambiguity--about it being wrong for a GROWN MAN in a power position to sexually solicit and engage in graphic, sexual discussions with a MINOR????

I don't get this.

Who cares if Foley is a pederast, a situational pedophile or just an adult male who wanted
to talk dirty with a teenager. No matter what the legal or psychological term--it's wrong.

It's also illegal.

There should be no confusion about this being wrong, illegal and immoral.

I get a bit boggled about DUers who go the extra mile to rationalize
and muddy the waters when it comes to sexual predators and the abuse of children.

It is illegal, morally repugnant and abusive for a middle-aged Congressman to solicit
teenage boys for sexual conversation or activities--in person, email or otherwise.

PERIOD.

[last1standing]

13. That's a good question to which I'm seeking a legal answer.

I agree that it SHOULD be illegal. The question is "Is it"?

[Stinky The Clown]

16. It is still unclear whether or not a crime was actually committed

It *seems* as if opne was, but it is unclear. Things are still fluid and all we have, with respect to an actual crime, is speculation ..... so far.

[last1standing]

19. Are you a lawyer, Husb2Sparkly?

Or do you have knowledge of this kind of thing? It seems to me that based on what we've seen as evidence that the law has been broken. Now, I understand that legally I can't say 100% that it was until a court hears the case, but based on the evidence so far, did he run afoul of the Walsh Act? Or are there maybe other laws on the books that were broken?

Note on edit: I just noticed how contrary it looks when asking someone if they're a lawyer in the subject line. I really am wanting to know and not being an ass. :)

[Stinky The Clown]

22. Actually ......

...... I don't even claim to be a lawyer on teevee.

What I posted came after a discussion on MSNBC, with Susan Filen (sp?), the MSNBC legal analyst, and some guy who deals with this sort of stuff in Connecticut, a prosecutor of some sort.

They both agreed that there is not enough known yet to say for certain if a crime was committed or not. They did talk about the possible crimes - and there are more than a few that may have been done - but as i said in my post, above, it is still too early to know and that the story is still developing.

[last1standing]

23. I don't trust TV analysts.

They always seem to be fighting for an agenda rather than just reading the law. I wish a DU lawyer could see this thread and post their opinion.

But thanks for the input. My mini-rant above was not directed at you.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. For what its worth ......

Filen is generally pretty 'non-agenda' if not a bit on the shrill side when she believes something to be true .... and she's shown herself to be wrong from time to time.

That said, the other person in the exchange was one I've never seen before. He seemed knowledgeable on the subject matter and impartial. I put more weight on what he was saying than the 'teevee lawyer', Filen (sp?).

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

17. He's a resident of Florida, right?

And he tried to have sex with kids in Washington, D.C.

So that sounds to me like crossing state lines for the corruption of a minor. Explains why the FBI is involved.

[Maine-ah]

31. nice.

hadn't even thought of that hooligan, great catch.

[question everything]

18. How about sexual harassment in the workplace?

May not be a criminal offense but certainly grounds for dismissal.

[last1standing]

21. As the other DUer states, the pages got their IMs and emails....

after they had left DC. So he feels that harassment couldn't have taken place. I disagree there as well, but haven't argued that point, yet.

[rniel]

29. Who is this other DUer

Newt Gingrich???

[Moochy]

30. If that other DU'er starts sending you PM's

save them to your hard drive... :rofl: