For me, the scream was the last straw, not the beginning

[displacedtexan]

For me, the scream wasn't the beginning; it was the last straw.


I’ve seen hundreds of posts citing the Iowa speech as the beginning of Dean’s declining poll numbers and media attacks, as well as the rise of other candidates' political fortunes. However, I googled “Dean’s gaffes” and found that the scream was most certainly not the beginning of Dean’s poll problems.

(Note: I’m a former Dean supporter; after researching Dean’s positions last Summer, I decided that he was too conservative for me to support in the primary; but I will gladly vote for him if he becomes the party’s nominee.)

I heard this quote (from Canadian TV) the first week of January:

"If you look at the caucuses system, they are dominated by special interests, on both sides and both parties ... I can't stand there, listening to everybody else's opinion for eight hours about how to fix the world," said then-Gov. Dean.

From CNN:
Recent polls show Dean's lead in the state is eroding.

10 days before the Iowa caucus:

"The remarks he made about the Iowa caucuses to me are unbelievable. It would lead one to believe he is cynically participating in these caucuses," said fellow candidate Rep. Richard Gephardt.

"I think it's a bunch of baloney! A bunch of baloney! He don't know the people in this part of the country," said one.

The candidate himself to Judy Woodruff:

"This is election is not about what was said four years ago," Dean said.
"If I knew then what I know now about the Iowa caucuses, of course I wouldn't have said that."

"George Bush I believe is, in his soul, is a moderate ... So I think all those of us who are salivating and saying 'Ah ha, this is gonna be a one-term presidency,' I think that is a mistake," Dean said.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/09/wbr.Dean.polls/


Also from CNN:
Dean's post-Christmas comments that he could not suggest a penalty for the terrorist leader and author of the 9/11 catastrophe until he was judged guilty had no time to sink in before he began saying things that stunned his party's faithful.

He sniped at Democratic National Chairman Terry McAuliffe for not protecting him from the party's other candidates, and warned of his 1.5 million supporters defecting if any other Democrat is nominated for president.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/30/elec04.prez.dean.democrats/index.html

James Carville: "He seems to not appreciate the glory of the unspoken thought."

Carville, neutral in the race for the presidential nomination, rarely speaks ill of a fellow Democrat. But he did on CNN's "Crossfire":

"I'm scared to death that this guy just says anything. It feels like he's undergone some kind of a political lobotomy here."
******************

Two days later in a Sunday meeting with reporters in Iowa, Dean was even more puzzling. Scolding McAuliffe for not protecting him from other candidates, he said: "If Ron Brown were the chairman, this wouldn't be happening." As DNC chairman in 1992, Brown did not lift a finger as other candidates savaged front-runner Bill Clinton.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/12/29/elec04.prez.dean.democrats/index.html
**************

In the same Sunday session, Dean warned that "if I don't win the nomination," his million and a half supporters are "certainly not going to vote for a conventional Washington politician." Echaveste found it difficult to explain these outbursts.

Yet, the most disturbing of Dean's holiday gaffes came before Christmas. Answering a questionnaire from the Quad-City Times in Davenport, Iowa, asking his "closest living relative in the armed services," Dean listed his brother Charles -- actually neither alive nor ever a military veteran. He disappeared at age 23 in 1974 while visiting Laos as an anti-war civilian as part of a world tour, and his body was discovered last month.


Then came the famous scream speech.

Blaming CNN for reporting these gaffes,
blaming Terry McAuliffe for not scolding other candidates,
insulting voters,
blaming the media and other candidates for his Bin Laden statements,
stating that Bush* is a moderate,
and claiming his brother was in the military
all predated the Iowa caucus.

Threatening to leave the party and take his supporters with him really crossed the line as far as I'm concerned. And then, on top of everything else, somewhere in there he managed to call US Reps and Senators ‘cockroaches,’ which I find insulting because I voted for some of those cockroaches, like Carl Levin.

The scream was the final straw, in my opinion.

[Caution]

1. You aren't alone

I felt pretty much the same way. I had donted to Dean, done some campaign work, but as I got to know more about him and his positions, I became more and more uncomfortable with him and then his campaign really started to take some nasty turns. I will gladly vote for him should he win the nomination, but I will not support him in the primaries any longer (I have shifted my support to Kerry, the last actual progressive candidate with a shot at winning...Edwards is too conservative and Clark's campaign is not being run very well and I'm hesistant to support career military with no other experience with no record to back up the positions he takes).

[question everything]

6. Well Stated

I am grateful to Dean for galvanizing the campaign, for getting many young voters to show interest. But leaders of revolution often do not make the transition for "civilian" government.

We criticize the "angry right" of the talk show hosts an Fox TV, yet we were ready to embrace the mirror image.

And, yes, the voters of Iowa did reject his message even before that scream.

[RetroLounge]

2. Yawn

:eyes:

[bryant69]

3. Yeah it's so boring to be confronted with some one who disagrees

I can't see how you even stay awake. Everytime I read a post by someone who disagrees with me I just get so bored; thank goodness everybody pretty much agrees with me.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Straight Shooter]

4. The scream. Well, there they go again.

Never miss a chance to mention it.

:eyes:

[Armstead]

5. Don't take this personally but that is very shallow

Dean's comments on a talk show years ago is not a "gaffe." In truth he was saying the same thing that most pundits and politicos say every day about the caucuses and primaries....And he said his experience in Iowa changed his mind.

A lot of people thought Bush was a moderate. And right now Bush is under attack by the hard core conservatives. And a lot of middle-of-the-road people do not see him as an extremist...Sounds like wise political advice not to assume that the truth will reach the mainstream.

As for the Osama comment. Should a candidate say that if someone is caputured they not entitled to due process? Dean wasn;t saying he should be given a slap on the wrist and a fine....He also said in a battlefield situation, the orders should be to shoot to kill.

As for the McAullife flap. Maybe he shouldn't have said that, but it is perfectly reasonable to suggest that the party leader step in to calm things down if they are getting out of hand....And maybe Dean knew Ron brown, and had a personal sense he would have acted differently. Doesn't sound very puzzling.

He also answered honestly regading his brother. He had nothing to gain by that.

And ARE we safer since Sadaam was captured? Sure doesn't seem so.

I don't always agree with everything Dean has said, and sometimes wish he hadn't said certain things. But I'd rather have someone like that than a robot who says nothing that is not in the "script" written by political and media whores. His worst sin was talking like a human being.

[dsc]

7. and now McAuliffe is taking a very different position

now if the candidates haven't won a sufficient number of primaries they shouldn't be allowed to speak at all, let alone negatively.

[KC21304]

20. I believe Dean is the one who changed his position.

When he was the front runner he complained to McAuliffe that he wasn't being protected from the other upstarts. Now when he is practically at the back of the pack, he is sniping at the front runner. That is to be expected.

Let him stay in as long as he wants. Or at least long enough to raise enough money to pay his campaign workers.

[blm]

11. His worst sin to me is sounding too much like Bush.

Dean on 9/14/2001

Dean's comments on civil liberties cause alarm
September 14, 2001

MONTPELIER — Gov. Howard Dean's call for a “re-evaluation” of some of America's civil liberties following this week's terrorist attacks was criticised Thursday by a Vermont Law School professor.

“Good God,” Vermont Law School Professor Michael Mello said when read the remarks Dean made at a Wednesday news conference. “It's terribly irresponsible for the leader of our state to be saying stuff like that right now.”
Benson Scotch, the head of the Vermont chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, said it was simply too soon after the attacks to engage in the sort of debates Dean called for.

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street

http://rutlandherald.com/News/Story/33681.html

[Armstead]

12. You left something out

The rest of that section:

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:

“I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far. Again, I think that's a debate that we will have.”

MORE

---------------

Gee he said he hadn;t made up his mind yet during a time when everyone was basically saying the same things. And gosh, he predicted there would be a big debate about that.....How reactionary was that?

[blm]

17. HAHAH...that's just typical Dean, isn't it? Read further.

And given his past disdain for "technicalities" in the justice system, what are we supposed to think?


>>>>>
Mello said Thursday, “the civil liberties Dean seems to be talking about so blithely, that's exactly what makes us different from the murderers who committed these acts.

“It's why they attacked us,” he continued. “I think our freedom is what they find so threatening, our freedom and the power that I think results directly from that freedom.”
>>>>>

Howard "they hate us for our freedoms" Dean

[Skip Intro]

8. "The Scream" was what convinced me to support Dean

I had been leaning Dean for a while, but when I saw the passion from Dean, and the crowd of supporters, and the way the media, every outlet, it seemed, in concert, savaged Dean over that completely misrepresented non-event, it was the final factor for me. How anyone can see that media attack (700 replays in less than a week, with accompanying ridicule and dismissive commentary) for anything other than what it was is beyond me. Even Dianne Sawyer admitted the media misrepresented the speech. I have never seen anything so blatant in my life, and it disgusts me still.

As far as some of his comments, I don't know enough about the Iowa caucus system to say Dean was right or wrong, but he sure as hell has a right to speak his mind on the matter. And how can you pronounce sentence before a trial has occurred? Even "fry 'em all" bush is for a trial for Saddam. There is such a thing as rule of law.

I can live with Dean's comments - warts and all, much more easily than I can look the other way on Kerry's and Edwards' CONTINUING support for invading Iraq.

[RoeBear]

21. How do feel about getting on...

...a sinking ship? After today's Michigan caucus we'll know if the ship has finally sunk or not.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

9. When Dean first started running, I had seen articles about how he

had stuck his foot in his mouth/shot off his mouth all the time when he was Governor. A lot of experts predicted that he would "self destruct" becasue of them. That was why a lot of people were concerned about him from day one.

I had thought that he seemed like an interesting candidate but when I saw several articles talking about this I thought "Oh oh" - he's too risky of a candidate.

[Armstead]

15. Yes he shot off his mouth so often.....

he was re-elected how many times?

Maybe that's the kind of risky we need more of.

[frustrated_lefty]

10. I certainly won't deny

Dean has made a few gaffes.

On the other hand, I don't think this is one of them:

"Dean's post-Christmas comments that he could not suggest a penalty for the terrorist leader and author of the 9/11 catastrophe until he was judged guilty had no time to sink in before he began saying things that stunned his party's faithful."

Truly, would you rather he came out and said Bin Laden should be drawn and quartered, no jury necessary? I would think Bin Laden should be turned over to the ICC, because there is no way on earth he could get a fair trial in America. But, in America, we CLAIM to believe you're innocent until proven guilty. It's a pretty lie, but it's a lie which is part of the fundament of our nation. There should be no execution prior to a trial, every accused should have the opportunity to speak.

You have every right to support or not support Dean for whatever reason, but listing among your reasons to not support him that he insists upon standing in favor of constitutional rights is a little lame, in my opinion.

[adadem]

13. I'm with you

I volunteered and donated...then all the things you noted. By the time it came to "the scream" I wasn't the least bit surprised.
Carl Levin and many others are not cockroaches including John Edwards, John Kerry, Richard Gephardt or Dennis Kucinich.

I've regained hope in my fellow Democrats.

[frustrated_lefty]

14. I cannot believe you said this

"Yet, the most disturbing of Dean's holiday gaffes came before Christmas. Answering a questionnaire from the Quad-City Times in Davenport, Iowa, asking his "closest living relative in the armed services," Dean listed his brother Charles -- actually neither alive nor ever a military veteran. He disappeared at age 23 in 1974 while visiting Laos as an anti-war civilian as part of a world tour, and his body was discovered last month."

At the time that question was asked, Dean could only hope his brother was alive. And there has been substantial speculation that his brother was in Laos as a CIA operative.

You choose to NOT support a man because his BROTHER DIED IN SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY? Oh, wow, you've convinced me, gosh, I guess Kerry is my man now.

[displacedtexan]

23. Please check the fact: Dean said his brother was in the military.

Dean's brother was not in the military.

And I didn't claim that. It was a quote.

[poskonig]

16. Where's the beef?

I switched from Dean too, but not because people played cut'n'paste with old quotes.

[DebJ]

18. your criteria as explained here is how Dubya got elected

looks pretty, cute smile (barf), talks nice, follows all the rules in the box.

That's why G.W. did to this country the same crap he did in Texas as governor: gave away a budget windfall to oil lobbyists, ran the state into an enormous deficit in just four years, etc ad nauseum.

But gee he knows his manners. Rove and Cheney know his mind (for him).

Good way to pick a candidate.

With these criterion, we would never have had a USA, for our Founding Fathers wouldn't meet them. Ugly, blunt spoken, soft spoken...Washington muttered into his chest at his own Inauguration.

If Dean were to enact as President of the country what he did for the State of Vermont, what a different world....and a truly Democratic one.
This ain't a fashion show.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

19. I think of Dean as one of those leaders who is great at starting up a

movement - like an agitator but maybe not the best at "managing" it. Usually the people who are best at starting up movements are not very good at being part of a "group." They have a hard time compromising.

Look at Lech Walesa in Poland. He helped overthrow the Communists in Poland. When it came to governing, however, he was terrible. After his first term, he was overwhelmingly defeated at the polls.

[Sean Reynolds]

22. So let me get this straight......

So you take words Dean said in 1998 about a general caucus, remember he didn't say Iowa caucus, and turn them around as if he's bashing the caucus? For the longest time a lot of caucuses were run by the unions on the left and the business people on the right. The average Joe was pushed into supporting ______ candidate by these groups - remember when going into a caucus one is pulled from each side. Dean had never been to a caucus at that time. His opinion was valid based on the majority of American caucuses - why was he wrong? He even said that going to Iowa changed this mind, but I'm guessing he's just lying.

Next you attack him for saying that Bush was a moderate. You know what, a lot of people were fooled by the thought of him being he a moderate. He posed as one during the election and then ran toward the right. If you're going to attack Dean - attack the other 50% of the nation that voted for him. As for Dean saying that Bush would probably put up a fight for re-election; well here we are, election year and it seems to be a very close race. Dean didn't say Bush would make a good president, he only said that it would be a mistake to think he was going to be just a one-term president. How is that wrong?

Also, if you're so liberal, why do you want to just fry bin Laden's ass? Don't you agree that he should face a jury trial - instead of the United States just locking him up for good? Sounds to me like Dean actually believes in the international law.

When he went to the DNC and cried, I got pissed. I didn't like it, but of course it wasn't going to change the way I thought of him.

About Dean saying that if he were not the nominee his supporters wouldn't follow and support the Dem nominee. While Dean himself has said MANY times that he'd support any candidate that wins the nomination, I won't. So he was correct there.

As for what he said to the newspaper about his brother. He's always said that his brother was not in the military - he probably just got cought up with the fact that his brother actually was MIA. He never once said his brother was in the amry, fighting over in Vietnam.

Now you seem to get a lot of your news from the media. Did you happen to see that the media actually retracted the scream speech? Have you seen the video from the crowd that SHOWS Dean and yet even when yelling he can't be heard? Do you even know that ABC said they were WRONG in airing the speech and that in fact Dean wasn't as loud as they made him out to be? If so, why do you continue to harp on the fact?

Dean SHOULD blame the media for taking his words out of context. Remember when that caucus story aired? MSNBC CUT out a whole piece where Dean was talking as if HE were an average caucus goer. Yet most Americans only heard the part where Dean said he didn't have time to listen to all these people's problems. WHAT KINDA BS is that? Then you've got the media that continually played the scream speech OVER AND OVER AND OVER again - not realizing that the reason Dean was yelling was because the crowd in the room was so fuckin' loud that no one could hear him. Yes he SHOULD blame the media because they DROPPED the ball way too much. If you don't think they did/will/have, GO look back at 2000. Gore is a bore, Gore lies, Gore invented the internet. ALL that came form the media - it wasn't true, but sadly the voters believed it.

Like I said, I don't agree with blaming Terry. But that won't deter me one little bit.

He never blamed the media and other candidates for the bin Laden statement. He only stated THEY were wrong.

As for stating Bush was a moderate, I told you that most people thought he was a moderate - but you don't seem to care.

He never said his brother was in the military.

All were blown up by........THE MEDIA.

When did he threaten to leave the party? I don't EVER remember Dean saying "I'm going to leave the party and take all my supporters with me!"

Finally, a lot of the US Reps and Senators ARE cockroaches. So I'm glad he said it, because that is exactly what I was thinking.

If the scream was your final straw, you haven't been listening or you just like to pick little things out to of bigger issues. Maybe IT IS the media?

[Casablanca]

24. Carville's pegging the irony meter again.

"He seems to not appreciate the glory of the unspoken thought."

Neither do you Carville. Neither do you.

It's funny that most Americans glorify the right to be blowhards, but deny that right to the people they elect to represent them in the halls of power.

Carville gets paid for it and a seat on Crossfire. Dean loses 20% in the polls over it. America is a strange, strange country.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

26. Carville isn't a candidate, though... He knows better.

n/t

[Casablanca]

28. That's my point. People elected to do the most in America ...

Are the most censured by the system and the most cautious. We cut the legs off our knights in shining armor before sending them off to battle. if they don't do it themselves.

That's why I have "can stand against the mainstream when it's called for" at the top of my "electability" criteria.

[bushwakker]

25. The Iowa speech made Dean un-electable

It's not fair - but it's true. For many Americans it was their first exposure to the governor. It was a major gaffe. I don't blame Dean as much as I blame his staff for not having their shit together on caucus night. You never get a second chance to make a first impression.

[Casablanca]

30. That's not true - Iowa and NH voters made Dean not #1 in their states.

Dean came out of both primaries with a majority of the committed delegates. That's not the meaning of "unelectable", even in America's compromised system.

Please, stop listening to the corporate media trying to call this race before its even started. You're repeating their mantra, so it sounds like you do.

[boxster]

27. Dean lost Iowa big before the "scream".

He lost Iowa to Kerry by 20 points before the speech ever happened.

Blaming the entire downfall of his candidacy (as many have) on the "scream" and its resultant media coverage is ridiculous. The issues you cited certainly have had an impact. I'm also beginning to wonder if his allegedly large grassroots support is a mirage. Apparently, those people aren't getting to the polls.

I disagree with nearly everything Tucker Carlson ever says, but he did say one thing that made me think - he said that people supported Dean for a time because it was "fun" and it was the "in" thing. He went on to say that once voters got further acquainted with him, they began switching to candidates who they felt could legitimately beat Bush.

[TheDonkey]

29. Dean barking at a heckler, Dean's Sealed records, Dean going negative then

crying he was tired of being a pushpin all pushed him lower in the opinion of me and looks like many other Americans too.

Dean did have a good passion and message but just didn't have the personality to make it to the GE or defeat bush. We can't have someone screaming and barking in a televised debate.

[Skip Intro]

31. If you're talking about that repuke plant at that Dean rally

Dean handled that superbly, imho.

The guy was pleading with Dean to "love thy neighbor" re: bush, and to be respectful of the resident, etc. Dean let him have his say, and then told him to sit down when he tried to interrupt Dean's reply. The rest of the crowd thougt it was great, cuz they applauded Dean loudly for that, and for his reply that, in so many words, bush didn't deserve to be sucked up to.

You surely have the right to dislike Dean for whatever reasons you choose, but disliking him because he put a repuke plant in his place seems like a thin reason to me.