christian proselytizing through the military--on OUR dime

[niyad]

most of us remember the dust-up over religion and the Air Force Academy. in the course of a conversation I am having with a friend, I ran across this rather interesting bit of information. Seems like this group, if I understand correctly, is using the military, and therefore, OUR TAX DOLLARS, to proselytize and spread their version of christianity. Somehow, this does not amuse me. (I live in the same town, and didn't know about their activities. oooops)

Is this something that is widely known, or something that NEEDS to be widely known?????

HomeMinistriesMilitary

The Navigators Military Ministry

We envision a movement of thousands of courageous men and women passionately following Christ, representing Him in advancing the Gospel through relationships where they live, work, train for war, and deploy. This movement includes men and women of all races and ranks, and permeates the military community on and around every U.S. installation and foreign military around the world.

We see teams of laborers and leaders living integrated lives of professional excellence that relate authentically with grace and truth, which penetrates and prods hearts in irresistible ways both among those who do not yet believe the Gospel and with one another. This results in safe, attractive communities with an infectious combination of love, godly character, healing, restoration, enjoyment of each other, and the uniting of strengths and gifts.

These missional, transformational communities shepherd, give intentional life-on-life development, and provide ongoing resourcing and care for military men and women throughout a lifetime of deployments, relocations, and career changes with seamless connection both within and beyond the military.

This movement of men and women embraces an unwavering commitment to the Scriptures, a deep reliance on the Holy Spirit, and is fueled by prevailing prayer. They seek to develop lifetime laborers in partnership with chaplains, one another and others in the kingdom. Their hearts are fixed on God’s promises of spiritual generations among their family, friends, and fellow warriors – and through them, into all the nations.


. . . . . . . . .

http://www.navigators.org/us/ministries/military

[Kagemusha]

1. I bet only in recent decades has this become controversial

A Christian Army was widely accepted and encouraged in the past. Of course, drafts meant taking in all kinds (except Quakers and Jehova's Witnesses etc.) but, the link between the careerists and Christian religion was, I imagine, taken completely for granted. (Just like the link between whiteness and legitimacy.) It's only in these recent times that such efforts to sneak prosletyzing BACK in look like they're brand new, when in fact, it's a reactionary campaign against a long-term opening up.

[RaleighNCDUer]

2. Beg to differ, but we've NEVER had a 'christian army'.

There were religious persons in the military, and they reflected the makeup of the country in general - mainstream protestants, catholics, jews, muslims, ba'hai, whatever, and that odd 15% of agnostics, atheists and general non-believers. This is talking about a fundie protestant movement, which is a whole nother critter.

In the past, no one was 'expected' to go to services. No one was bothered if you didn't go, or if you went to services other than the norm. "Onward Christian Soldiers" was about christians, not soldiers.

And BTW, there ARE atheists in foxholes. Every day, in every army in the world.

[Kagemusha]

3. You're reading way too much into my comments.

I'm an atheist myself. I was taught that US military training is patterned directly after evangelical conversion techniques (and widely praised for their resulting systematic effectiveness). I have no idea about who was expected to go to services or not in the past; I just highly doubt that career officers could get very far without being openly Christian between oh, let's say, the Civil War and WWII, from all that I've heard and read about military culture in those days. But at any rate, I simply don't need convincing to believe that there are atheists in foxholes, and I'm sorry you interpreted what I wrote to somehow mean that I didn't think it was even possible, let alone regular.

Edit: But um, I also don't see why this is the point. I don't recall ever hearing that the Army was opposed to converting people to Christianity while serving in the armed forces. It's just that chaplains did that, not 'the Army'. As to whether officer academies encouraged Christianity with their official rules, I unfortunately lack the personal knowledge to answer this either way. I just don't see where this would be a controversy in the 1920's. I could be wrong. I just feel like it's a recent controversy because our baseline expectations about Christianity in the mlitary have changed.

[ieoeja]

20. Actually chaplains were DISCOURAGED from doing that.

They are supposed to take a neutral position. To begin with Roman Catholics used to represent a disproportionate percentage of the military's chaplains. The military certainly did not want RCs converting their good Anglo-protestant boys into papist followers of the anti-Christ in Rome.


Gen. Schwartzkopf once said the biggest problem for the US Army was the military academy at West Point. This is wonderfully illustrated by a book, The Forgotten War, regarding Korea. For over 80% of the military officer mentioned in the book, the author started with a list: year of graduation from West Point, father's name and year of graduation from West Point, and father-in-law's name and year of graduation from West Point. There was also tons of cross-referencing between officers. Who graduated in the same class, etc. Only about 20% of US Army officers acheived their rank without a major indicator of nepotism.

That author used the US Marine Corps as a contrast where the percentages are just about the opposite (around 20% from the Annapolis) while the performance was extremely superior. Of course, this dates back to Korea. The US Army has gotten a LOT more competent since then (though they still managed to screw up Vietnam with their promises of a quick victory the Navy/Marines said could not be done). I don't know what the percentages are, but as already noted, Gen Schwartzkopf still said it was a problem.


We see here the beginning of a new, religious based organization setup to replicate the same problems as West Point: promotion through cronyism.

[goddess40]

14. Like women being equal is recently accepted

The "no atheist's in the foxholes" has always been a lie told to put non-christians in their place. The idea that a Christian army was widely "accepted" because no one dare say otherwise.

[Kagemusha]

15. While I appreciate the point, small quibble.

In my mind, acceptance is easily equatable with no one daring saying otherwise. Like how we call acceptance that the Holocaust exists, near-universal because only "fringe nuts" dare deny it. (And not that they should deny it. Just saying, that's how acceptance or lack thereof works.)

[TheBaldyMan]

4. this isn't new, these fundies have been proselytizing for years now

Bush has been in power for six years now, this kind of stuff has just been less underground. It's a bit like Jesus Camp - fundamentalists are actively targeting government bodies and the military.

Short of a legion of stoners and slackers enlisting you can't stop them. They have apparently been carpeted a few times because they were alienating non-christians, I mean things like prayer meetings and bible study classes being held between/during military duties. Apparently causing some discomfort to other denominations and faiths in the ranks.

After 9/11 stuff like this became even more pronounced. A lot of troops thought they were actually fighting a holy war. I suppose three years in combat has taken some of the wind out of their sails. Not to mention Foleygate.

There are a lot of conservative christians in the US armed forces and that is one of the reasons that there is still a ban on gays in the military. They are the ones who voice disquiet about problems with morale etc. 'if we chose to admit homosexuals into the military'. Most guys that have served in the military can tell you quite a few stories about gays that have served even before the don't ask don't tell era. Believe me there were a lot, most straight soldiers operated a policy of live and let live and kept their mouths shut. Nobody except the fundies will be surprised to learn that a lot of gay service members serve their country honourably and with distinction in the past. Most of their colleagues knew and kept silent.

[OldSiouxWarrior]

5. As long as they do their duty, it IS their freedom.

They have the freedom to talk about religion to others, and the others have to freedom to listen or not listen.

As long as they do their duty, what is the problem?

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. The problem is the rank structure.

In the military, there is no freedom unless it is issued to you.

If a higher rank starts prositylizing, particularly an officer, it is borderline disrespectful to a superior rank to say 'I'm not interested', and you know it can result in getting shit duty if that rank takes it personally. So whatcha gonna do, have only privates prostelytize privates? Sergeants for sergants? Lieutenants for lieutenants?

I had a gunny sergeant back in the day who one day saw the error of his ways and quit the drinking and doping and whoring around, and lined the front of his desk with Chick tracts. He would be happy to talk to anyone who approached him, but NEVER brought up the subject himself. The very idea was anathema. It just was not done. If they are openly prostelytizing in the ranks today, then the military culture has changed in the last 30 years, and not for the better.

[Kagemusha]

11. The subject keeps coming up re: officer academies but...

...I really haven't heard much about it happening in the active forces themselves. If that is reflected by reality, it's probably because it's harder to get away with this stuff with enlisted men who have specific rights guaranteed by Congress through military regulations (they USED to take that responsibility seriously, just as the Constitution intended) and well, you're dealing with a lot of older people less inclined to get pushed around on the issue. In fact, I'm sure that's exactly why fundamentalists go after academies: it's the best shot they're ever gonna get. Once people are out collecting regular paychecks it's a lot harder to push them into anything, religion included.

[OldSiouxWarrior]

17. I spent a hitch in service.

We had Christians in service at the time, and some attempted to evangelize others, and some succeeded and some didn't, and I don't remember it being a problem. Everybody I ever knew was aware of when the rank was speaking and when the person was speaking. Occasional abuses may happen, but there are military channels that are available to take care of it.

I think the OP would like to outlaw religion and have state mandated atheism.

[niyad]

7. the problem is, it ISN:T their duty to spread the gospel or whatever

their DUTY is defense of this country. if they have anything else in mind, they should join some missionary organization. I vehemently object to my tax dollars funding missionary work, period. I don't care under what guise. We had a lot of problems with various navy personnel doing this, actually forcing people to listen to their proselytizing, until complaints were made to the base commander repeatedly.

The fact that they are doing this as members of the armed services makes it look as if this is an activity supported by the government, which can be seen as a violation of the separation of church and state. How difficult is that to understand?

[OldSiouxWarrior]

16. Because they still have religious freedom.

It really is that simple. It is amazing, how many people on a liberal site, that want to restrict personal freedoms.

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. OK. So, a corporal shows up for duty late and hungover.

When called to the carpet, the captain says "you seem to be having some personal issues. I can understand that, and am inclined to give you a pass this one time. I'm hosting a meeting tonite where we look for biblical answers to these sort of things. I'd like you to show up. 1900 hours."

what's the corporal to do?

the officer is in clear violation of his duties by not administering official punishment. He is blackmailing the corporal into coorperation by creating an improper balance between his personal religious agenda and official regulation.

What's the corporal to do?

And, BTW, the Major is the guy to originally started the captain's prayer group.

What's the corporal to do?

This can, and will, come up whenever you have a higher rank prostelytizing to a lower rank they have authority over.

This is no more legitimate than a boss asking his typist for a date. Implied coercian. It cannot be tolerated.

[OldSiouxWarrior]

19. The Corporal can complain to the IG office.

This isn't new, and has been dealt with before.

You seem to want a law that would make it illegal for any servicemember to speak to any other person about religion at any time for any reason.

[RaleighNCDUer]

21. Be serious. You're ex-military. You know what happens to guys

who buck the chain of command. their career is over. Even if they're lifers, or want to be lifers, it's over. And it doesn't matter how justified they may be.

And "to speak to any other person about religion" is a far cry from prostelytizing to the persons under your command.

I just deleted two more sentences, in an effort to keep from getting too fucking uncivil.

[OldSiouxWarrior]

22. I never personally heard of a case of that.

The higher ranking person would almost certainly be a career person. As such he would know that if he used his rank to push his religion, it would blow up in his face. His career would be over. There are ways to properly gripe about your superior pushing religion. Again, I never knew of it happening while I was in, so it would be rather rare.


Almost all prostelytizing is close rank to close rank. ie, lower enlisted to lower enlisted, NCO to NCO, Junior officer to junior officer, Field grade to field grade, etc. You know that the military is a caste system (a mobile one - you can move from one caste to another) and discussions of one's personal faith would take place within the caste, not outside it.

The troops do still have the freedom to talk to each other about religion.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

8. if these fools seek a "Second Coming" this is a good way to do it....

Associating the "Prince of Peace" with the death and destruction of war, should get Him right out of the grave but He won't be happy with the fools that awakened Him.

[chicagolefty]

9. It's been going on a long time

When I went through Marine boot camp every single recruit was forced to attend Christian services on Sunday. Our DI's taught us our loyalties were as follows:

God, Country and Corps.

A few brave recruits refused to go to services (I mean very few, maybe 2 in my company) and were tasked with crappy duties while the rest of us attended services.

[niyad]

10. welcome to DU!! -this sort of thing has to stop. it isn't the job of

our military to "spread the word" or whatever crap they spew. but something tells me it is probably even harder to register complaints now then when I was involved.

[chicagolefty]

12. Thanks for the warm welcome

You're right, we were supposed to be fighting for freedom of religion but we were told no such privilege was given to us. Our asses belonged to the Corps and as long as our DI's were Christian, we were to do what we were told.

It didn't really phase me (that part of it). I just did what I had to do to graduate. Some guys really didn't like it but were not about to complain and be made a spectacle of. And believe me, if you did anything to call attention to yourself you seriously regretted it.

[gratuitous]

13. That's a strange formulation . . .

I mean, God above country? So how does that square with the Sermon on the Plain (Luke 6:27ff), Matthew 25:31ff and 26:52? Or is this some special military brand of Christianity that teaches it's perfectly all right to kill, keep score, remain jealous and unforgiving, and answer wrongdoing with more and greater violence?

If Jesus saw these soldiers fer Gawd, killing and torturing, he'd throw up.

[chicagolefty]

23. Don't ask me

I didn't invent the saying, I was just taught it was the way things were. I'm not saying it's right either.

[Dob Bole]

24. Most units have FOUR chaplains...

Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, and Muslim. Other minor groups have equal opportunity to reserve facilities as well.

I don't see anything scary or fascist about this. The group you've linked to is using standard, Protestant language.