Pocket Veto? Is the Military Commissions Act already invalid?

[Patsy Stone]

A caller on Stephanie Miller's show brought up an excellent point:

1) When Congress is adjourned, if the President fails to sign a bill within 10 days it's called a "Pocket Veto", which is usually used when a President doesn't want to sign a bill.

2) Congress is out and it took Bush 6 weeks to sign this.

So:

Was it dead in the water before he signed it, or is it law because he signed it -- regardless of the 10-day limit? In other words, would it not even have to proven unconstitutional, because it was signed too late, making it unconstitutional even before his pretty ceremony today?

Anyone know?

[endarkenment]

1. Congress is not adjourned. nt.

[TechBear_Seattle]

4. Adjourned or in recess, the effect is the same

Here is the relevant part of the United States Constitution:

Every bill which shall have passed the House of Representatives and the Senate, shall, before it become a law, be presented to the President of the United States; if he approve he shall sign it, but if not he shall return it, with his objections to that House in which it shall have originated, who shall enter the objections at large on their journal, and proceed to reconsider it. If after such reconsideration two thirds of that House shall agree to pass the bill, it shall be sent, together with the objections, to the other House, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered, and if approved by two thirds of that House, it shall become a law. But in all such cases the votes of both Houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the persons voting for and against the bill shall be entered on the journal of each House respectively. If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their adjournment prevent its return, in which case it shall not be a law.

United States Constitution, Article II, Section 7, para. 2

My reading of this is that, if the bill was submitted to the President several weeks ago while it was in session, it automatically became a law and the signing was nothing more than a ceremonial distraction. The question is: when was this bill submitted to the President?

[wtmusic]

7. The president has to sign the bill

or there is no law.

[TechBear_Seattle]

8. Read the excerpt from the Constititon given above

Again, I quote from the United States Constitution, Article II, Section 7, para. 2: If any bill shall not be returned by the President within ten days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law, in like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their adjournment prevent its return, in which case it shall not be a law.

If the President gets a bill and does not sign it within 10 days (excluding Sundays), it does become a law if Congress is still in session. The only way it does not become a law is if Congress has adjourned and the bill can not be returned.

[Lasher]

17. Very good, TechBear. The president gets 10 days to return (veto) bills

Otherwise they become law automatically.

[TechBear_Seattle]

20. Provided Congress is in session

On October 11, the ten day mark, both houses of Congress were in recess, thus preventing the return of the bill, thus automatically vetoing it.

I would be very interested in hearing from an actual Constitutional scholar on this matter. If the bill was technically vetoed, as seems to be the case, is the President's signature valid or is he (yet again) committing treason by violating the Oath of Office to uphold the Constitution? And will anyone in Congress -- anyone at all -- have the gonads to say anything?

I ain't holding my breath on any of the above questions.

[Lasher]

21. Thanks for the correction, you're absolutely right. Edit:maybe not.

I actually realized this downthread. I was posting reply #19 when you were posting this one.

I'm gonna nominate this OP for sure!

Lasher

Edit: Oops, look further downthread. It looks like the bill was not sent to the president until October 10. If that's true he signed it within 10 days and it's now law.

[endarkenment]

28. Read here.

"Summary
The Constitution provides that any bill not returned by the President “within ten
Days (Sundays excepted)” shall become law, “unless the Congress by their
Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law.” This
instrument of presidential power, known as the “pocket veto,” was first used in 1812
by President James Madison. Unlike the regular veto, which is subject to a
congressional override, a pocket veto is “absolute” because it is not returned to
Congress.
Beginning in 1929, several judicial decisions attempted to clarify when an
adjournment by Congress would “prevent” the President from returning a veto.
Several cases during the Nixon administration appeared to restrict the pocket veto to
a final adjournment of Congress at the end of the second session, and that
understanding was accepted by the Ford and Carter administrations. Under this
political accommodation, Presidents would not use the pocket veto in the middle of
a session (intrasession vetoes) or between the first and the second sessions
(intersession vetoes).
However, that agreement has not been followed by the Reagan, Bush, and
Clinton administrations. President Ronald Reagan issued a pocket veto late in 1981
and 1983 (at the end of the first sessions), and President George Bush also used
intersession pocket vetoes late in 1989 and 1991. President Bill Clinton, in 2000,
used three intrasession pocket vetoes."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=132&topic_id=2888599&mesg_id=2888740

So the whole thing is a mess. The system in practice from 1929 was abandoned starting with the Reagan administration. No court cases have been brought to clarify what the rules really are.

It seems that the bill was delivered on the 10th so all of this is a non issue.

[yy4me]

26. This is an Olbermann question for his guest, the professor

from (I believe) Georgetown University. I'm afraid I cannot remember his name.

[Patsy Stone]

27. Jonathan Turley

My favorite Libertarian... :loveya:

[ClassWarrior]

2. Interesting... K&R for an answer...

:hi: Pats...

NGU.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

3. What is this "law" you speak of?

I really don't think it matters anymore. The Chimperor has declared himself to be above the law, and his word now IS the law.

[Patsy Stone]

5. The President has to sign a Bill to make it law.

The Military Commissions Act was passed by Congress, but it wasn't signed into law until today.

[wtmusic]

6. Whoa...

From the U.S. Constitution Article 1, Section 7: "...If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a Law, in like Manner as if he had signed it, unless the Congress by their Adjournment prevent its Return, in which Case it shall not be a Law. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_veto

It hasn't been 6 weeks (the Senate passed the bill on 9/29) but it's been longer than 10 days. :shrug:

[bullimiami]

10. i agree. this law was invalidated because congress adjourned and he

waited longer than 10 days to sign it.
it must be intentional. or very stupid. we will see what happens since there may not be a constitution anymore.

[TechBear_Seattle]

11. When did Congress adjourn?

Assuming the bill was submitted that same day, the 10 day mark would have been Wednesday, October 11. Was Congress still in session at that time? If so, then the law went into effect automatically as of that date. If Congress adjourned before then (wasn't their last day September 30?), then it was automatically vetoed as of that date.

Granted, I'm no constitutional scholar, but that is how I read it. Then again, there might very well be precedent (excluding *) where a technically vetoed bill was signed into law after that deadline had passed.

[Lasher]

19. The House adjourned on September 29 at 1:05 AM

http://clerk.house.gov/floorsummary/floor.html

The Senate adjourned at 2:27 AM on September 30.

http://www.senate.gov/galleries/pdcl/

And so, Congress was adjourned when the 10 day mark was reached and the pocket veto took effect. This is astonishing stupidity for The Decider to have blundered so badly!

A pocket veto is a legislative maneuver in American federal lawmaking. The U.S. Constitution requires the President to sign or veto any legislation placed on his desk within ten days (not including Sundays). If he does not, then it becomes law by default. The one exception to this rule is if Congress adjourns before the ten days are up. In such a case, the bill does not become law; it is effectively, if not actually, vetoed. Ignoring legislation, or "putting a bill in one's pocket" until Congress adjourns is thus called a pocket veto. Since Congress cannot vote while in adjournment, a pocket veto cannot be overridden.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_veto

[MaineDem]

12. THis could be the photo-op signing

He may have already signed it in the privacy of the Oval or something.

It has been more than 10 days since 9/29, even excluding Sundays.

[wtmusic]

14. So the signing could be a legislative plastic turkey?

Should be exposed as such, in any case.

[MaineDem]

15. I totally agree (n/t)

[Patsy Stone]

25. You're right: it's not been six weeks

And I'm not sure where I came up with that. :blush:

[Patsy Stone]

9. I'm not saying this is true, and I haven't done the math

But it seems like something to look at.

If it's already become a law because of the 10 day lag and this was a useless photo-op, or if it's been caught in a Pocket Veto because of the 10 days and it's invalid, I don't know. I'm still looking.

I just want to double check, dot the i's and cross the t's. And hopefully someone knows more about the Constitution than I do. I learned everything I know from Schoolhouse Rock.

[wtmusic]

16. LOL "I learned everything I know from Schoolhouse Rock"

Funny how that stuff sticks in your brain :thumbsup:

[bunny planet]

30. Send it to KO Patsela, I'm sure he'll get on the phone with

Jonathan Turley about it. Its significant that he publicly signed the bill, that more or less proves he waited beyond the 10 days. Maybe they were hoping this wouldn't get caught, like with everything they do. The bill is unConstitutional on so many levels its ridiculous, just add this to the list. Still, really good catch, I haven't heard this mentioned anywhere else.

[Patsy Stone]

13. Maybe the caller's premise is wrong and they're in time:

From the Wikipedia:

"Specter's amendment was rejected by a vote of 51-48. Specter voted for the bill despite the defeat of his amendment. The bill was finally passed by the house on September 29 2006 and presented to the President for signing on October 10 2006<5>."

So, it passed the House on September 29, but it wasn't present to the President until October 10.

Sadly, I think this means they made the deadline...

[wtmusic]

18. Yep

there appears to be no Constitutional limit on how long Congress has to "present" the bill to the President.

:(

[Lasher]

23. Here's the Congressional record to make it official

10/10/2006 Presented to President. :(

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SN03930:@@@R

It was signed into law before the 10 days had passed.

[Patsy Stone]

29. See...

That's a damn shame right there. Thanks for the info, Lasher. I thought it seemed too good to be true. :(

[Lasher]

31. It was a good OP, Patsy. I learned something from it. (EOM)

[niyad]

33. but if congress was adjourned, how would that effect the presentation

of a bill?

[Lasher]

34. Here's how:

If Congress approves and sends the president a bill and then adjourns, the president has 10 calendar days, excluding Sundays, to sign the bill. If he does not, the pocket veto provision applies and the bill does not become law.

If Congress sends the president a bill and is not in recess, and does not veto and return the bill to Congress within 10 days, excluding Sundays, then the bill automatically becomes law whethere the president has signed it or not.

Congress was adjourned in this case but the bill had not been sent to the president until October 10th. Junior signed the bill before 10 days had elapsed after that, so the bill became law and the pocket veto provision does not apply.

[onenote]

22. everything you'd ever want to know about the pocket veto

http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30909.pdf

[Nictuku]

24. I think it was 'presented' to him

within the last 10 days, not the day it passed in congress.

[onenote]

32. correct. It was presented on October 10.

After both houses of congress pass a bill, it has to be "enrolled" -- that is, a final version reflecting all changes must be reviewed, printed, and signed by the Speaker and the President of the Senate. There is no set time limit for finishing this step in the legislative process other than that it must occur before the next Congress convenes.

For more: http://www.c-span.org/questions/week177.asp

So, no issue here. Presented on the 10th, signed on the 17th.