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No DUplicitous DUpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 10:33 AM
Original message
While watching the testing of opti-scan paper ballot readers (images)..
...In Colorado, I could not believe how the same ballot was sometimes rejected for over vote , even where there was none (over vote being both boxes darkened), some opti-scan readers did a MUCH better
job than others...how you fed in the ballot (face up or down, forward or back-wards, which should NOT make a difference), SOMETIMES made a difference. The results for the same test ballot, fed in again and again, kept coming up with different results. Example:



Now, the other choice in my county in Colorado, is The eSlate™, provided by Hart InterCivic.
some info here: http://www.kanecountyelections.org/VotingSystem/eSlate.asp

This is going to be very confusing to non-tech people. Here are my images and my advise:

Help people understand how to operate these new voting machines BEFORE election day.
You DON'T touch these screens, but have to dial and click buttons at the bottom of the screen.
JUST putting your 4 digit code in, is going to fry a lot of peoples brains. And with a long ballot,
these machines may only process 4 people per hour!!!, causing potential long waits, and the other choice, paper ballots may run out. Demand NOW from your County Clerk, that enough paper ballots are available, and that a CHOICE is given to voters, and that they not be forced to use the machines.







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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. Ironic, isn't it?
Voting machines, which were introduced solely to speed up the tallying process for the major media, have ended up fucking up the vote, itself. Every single one of them has done that, from the punch cards to the mechanical lever jobs.

You're right, these machines are pure dogs. Those ballots should be collected and tallied by hand.

I voted by paper ballot for many years on Cape Cod. It was simple, clean, and efficient enough for the tally to be in by the following 1 AM, at the latest.

Why the HELL we need to please the networks is beyond me.

Paper ballots, counted by human beings! Anything else is TYRANNY!
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No DUplicitous DUpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. RIGHT ON! sorry for shouting
And people really do need to see this.

Peace
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. Oh, and shameless K&R
People need to SEE THIS.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
4. k&r - one more vote please for the greatest page. nt
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ryanus Donating Member (511 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. I never have understood what the push for voting machines was
in any form, whether for placing votes or counting votes. Like it has been a real problem in the past capturing votes and counting votes.

All we need is to punch some holes and have a human count them up. Then another human count the results for the polling stations, and more humans on up until they are all tabulated and aggregated. I reject any and all automated\machine processes in voting, period.
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ourvoicescount Donating Member (251 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I have to agree whole-heartedly...
Edited on Thu Oct-19-06 11:41 AM by ourvoicescount
Granted the process was old, but it now seems to be more complicated that it was claimed to be. And not being able to trust the machines... Not cutting it. At all.
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badgerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
6. Kickin' ya on up the page...
Is it just me, or does this 'vote machine' look as though it's been unnecessarily complicated?

I'm wondering if they're banking on people getting disgusted with trying to fight with the thing, saying "Oh, screw it! My vote won't count anyway, obviously!"
...and just walking out. :tinfoilhat:
:banghead: :grr:

:kick:
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dajoki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thanks for posting, highly Recommended n/t
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No DUplicitous DUpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thanks!
And if you have time on election day, HELP the masses vote by being an election worker
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
10. I remember Repukes bitching about being stuck in line behind
a "welfare mom" who was trying to use the card that Clinton suggested ... which would have eliminated much of the paperwork of food stamps and such ... "Take too long, and you'd have the bitch screaming about how she has more money on the card, the register's wrong!"

And, of course, "single-payer" health care was wayyyyyyy too complicated for the average joe ... here, decide from the hundreds of options for Medicare part D ...

:eyes:
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
11. a little OT - here's what happens when a ballot is rejected
great post ... for those who haven't read a great study done on voting machines by the non-partisan Brennan Center, check out their report called "The Machinery of Democracy" on this website: http://www.brennanCenter.org

there's another point i wanted to add about these voting machines ... most of them provide a "switch" (i.e. software) that allows the machine to either kick out the rejected ballot or just allow it to be submitted ... depending on state law and on local law, rejected ballots by district can either be returned to the voter for correction and resubmission or they can just be accepted but not counted ... so, for example, if the ballot shown in the OP was rejected, one voting district might notify the voter immediately and give them a chance to fill out a new ballot while a neighboring voting district would never tell the voter their ballot was rejected ...

the problem is that this system is subject to serious abuse by the party in power ...

there has been evidence (sorry, not handy) in some states that showed that republican districts set the switch to give voters a second chance while primarily Democratic districts were required to set the switch to not notifying the voters their ballots had been rejected ... the result of this inequity is to give republican voters a second chance while Democrats had their ballots not counted ...

how's that for gaming the system ...
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GardeningGal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. So what's the best option?
Should we try to vote absentee, vote early, or vote on election day and be prepared to wait?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. IMHO, Early Voting in best
Edited on Fri Oct-20-06 05:08 AM by DoYouEverWonder
At the least, if you find out that there is a problem with your voter registration you might still have time to do something about it.

Plus voting IN PERSON is best because it is a lot harder for some to steal your vote or lose your absentee ballot. The repugs comb the inactive voter lists to find people to vote for.

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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-19-06 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. How are votes moved from scanners to tabulators?
Do they use memory cards as well?

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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. They are suppose to run a paper tally from the machine at the precinct
the total is transmitted via modem to the main SOE office.

Then they are suppose to go around and collect the paper tallies, take them back to the main office and compare the totals with the one transmitted via modem.

(At least, that's the way it is suppose to work in FL)

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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Transmitted via modem?
That implies the tally is done by computer.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I'm up in Alachua County
where we have optical scanners. So yes the scanners generate the totals.

I would assume the same is true for the ether vote machines.

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magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yes, the touchscreens and the scanners do things the same way
At least the Diebold scanners do. And the precincts that use them run both regular and absentee ballots through them.

I don't know what type of scanner you use in Alachua Cty, but in Osceola we use Diebold Accuvote (AV-OS). Here's a report I just found on these particular scanners, which verifies they use memory cards and are just as vulnerable as the DREs:

Security Analysis of the Diebold AccuBasic Interpreter, Voting Systems Technology Assessment Advisory Board (VSTAAB), February 14, 2006

p. 36: In the longer term, or for statewide elections, the risks of not fixing the vulnerabilities in the AccuBasic interpreter become more pronounced. Larger elections, such as a statewide election, provide a greater incentive to hack the election and heighten the stakes. Also, the longer these vulnerabilities are left unfixed, the more opportunity it gives potential attackers to learn how to exploit these vulnerabilities. For statewide elections, or looking farther into the future, it would be far preferable to fix the vulnerabilities discussed in this report.

p. 35: The FEC 2002 Voluntary Voting System Standards expressly forbid interpreted code.
The inclusion of interpreted languages in a voting system causes great burdens on examiners and code reviewers, who have to be highly skilled and do considerable analysis of the compiler and interpreter in order to verify that it does not present security vulnerabilities or permit malicious code to go unnoticed.

p. 9: All of this information on the memory cards is critical election information. If it is not properly managed, or if it is modified in any unauthorized way, the integrity of the entire election is possibly compromised. It is therefore vital, as everyone acknowledges, to maintain proper procedural control over the memory cards to prevent unauthorized tampering, and to treat them at all times during the election with at least the same level of security as ballot boxes containing voted ballots.

p. 11: There are serious vulnerabilities in the AV-OS and AV-TSx interpreter that go beyond what was previously known. If a malicious individual gets unsupervised access to a memory card, he or she could potentially exploit these vulnerabilities to modify the electronic tallies at will, change the running code on these systems, and compromise the integrity of the election arbitrarily.

p. 12: None of the vulnerabilities we found would have been found through standard testing, so testing is not the answer. This is a long-term problem with the use of interpreted code on removable memory cards, and with the failure to use defensive programming and other good security practices when implementing the interpreter.

p. 13: The consequence of these vulnerabilities is that any person with unsupervised access to a memory card for sufficient time to modify it, or who is in a position to switch a malicious memory card for a good one, has the opportunity to completely compromise the integrity of the electronic tallies from the machine using that card.

p. 13: The attack could manipulate the electronic tallies in any way desired.

p. 13: The attack could print fraudulent zero reports and summary reports to prevent detection.

p. 13: The attack could modify the contents of the memory card in any way, including tampering with the electronic vote counts and electronic ballot images stored on the card.

p. 13: The attack could erase all traces of the attack to prevent anyone from detecting the attack after the fact.

p. 13: It is even conceivable that there is a way to exploit these vulnerabilities so that changes could persist from one election to another. For instance, if the firmware or software resident on the machine can be modified or updated by running code, then the attack might be able to modify the firmware or software in a permanent way, affecting future elections as well as the current election. In other words, these vulnerabilities mean that a procedural lapse in one election could potentially affect the integrity of a subsequent election.

p. 16: It is conceivable that the attack might be able to propagate from machine to machine, like a computer virus. (The same is true of the DREs, IOW "it's the memory cards, stupid.")

p. 16: The attack could affect the correct operation of the machine. For instance, on the AV-OS, it could turn o_ (I believe that should read "off") under- and over-vote notification. It could selectively disable over-vote notification for ballots that contain votes for a disfavored candidate, or selectively provide false over-vote notifications for ballots that contain votes for a favored candidate.

p. 16: In addition, most of the bugs we found could be used to crash the machine.

p. 17: It is important to note that even in the worst case, the paper ballots cast using an AV-OS remain trustworthy; in no case can any of these vulnerabilities be used to tamper with the paper ballots themselves.

p. 18: Our analysis also confirmed that the AV-OS fails to check that the vote counters are zero at the start of election day.

http://www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/files/blc/election-report-findings.pdf (PDF file)

My point is basically this: all the vulnerabilities of the Diebold touchscreens also exist in their optical scanners. And while it's true that at least with the scanners we have a paper trail (the actual ballots), I would remind everyone that:

a) the first step is a machine recount using the same potentially flawed/hacked memory cards, which brings to mind the old saw "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result", and

b) in Florida, hand recounts have been outlawed.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-20-06 02:55 AM
Response to Original message
14. This is a constant problem with mail-in ballots
They sit around in conditions of unknown temperature and humidity, are FOLDED, and then run through a cancelling machine. Ink that did not appear to a voter to be inclined toward smearing may well leave blots on non-oval areas of the ballot that can be picked up by the machine after going through all that, but not be obvious to casual observers.
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