Any other Kerry supporters sick of being called sheeple?

[eileen_d]

Disclaimer: I like both Clark and Kerry, and frankly wish that Clark was doing better at this point, but Kerry was always my first choice. I do not believe the primaries are over, and I do believe that people should vote for their preferred candidate in the primaries in spite of any frontrunner "momentum."

Now, on with my rant:
No one on DU is going to deny that the media influences people's perceptions of the candidates and the primaries. However, plenty of DUers seem more than happy to insult the intelligence of people who are voting for the current frontrunner, Kerry, by claiming that these voters are letting the media choose who they are voting for.

Cause and effect? Let's look at some facts:

1) When one candidate gets more votes than any other candidate in an election, that candidate is generally declared the winner. (Exception : Election 2000, of course)

2) Winners get media coverage, because the point of election coverage is to declare a winner. Election coverage is not the time for the media to talk about candidates' messages; that would be campaign coverage. Election coverage is about win, place, show.

3) When people watch TV or otherwise expose themselves to the media, they do not switch off their brains. People have a choice about the amount of media coverage they choose to absorb. And each person filters the information coming from the media according to their own personal experience and values.

4) While there are numerous passionate Kerry supporters who vote, there are also voters who do not take the time to research candidates and instead choose to vote for whomever "looks strongest" at the time. These people may be voting for what appears to be the "wrong reason" -- but if so, what are you going to do about it? Deny these people the right to vote? Or attract them to your cause by calling them sheeple? (That last sentence should be laced with sarcasm.)

People who are voting for Kerry may not share all of your values, and you may think they have made the wrong decision, but accusing these people of being slaves to the media (or heaven forbid, the DLC) is not going to score you any points with the general public.

To quote Otto in "A Fish Called Wanda": Don't call me stupid.

[eileen_d]

1. kick myself

:kick:

[cindyw]

2. I've been called worse for supporting Kerry.

The Repubs will call us worse.

[eileen_d]

6. Good point.

The difference is, I don't care what Republicans say about me. I do care what fellow Dems say.

[angee_is_mad]

19. I've been called worse

for not supporting Dean.

I also wish that my candidate was doing better, but it isn't over.

[meow mix]

44. im guilty of thinking that..

but dont think ive ever said it,
ill wait untill after kerry loses the GE.

unless he wins!
then ill be apologizing =)

[YouMustBeKiddingMe]

3. Yes, I sure am

And I feel like a broken record, but I'll say it again ...

The media for most of the last year all but crowned DEAN the inevitable winner of the Democratic primaries before they even started. None of the candidates got greater BENEFIT from media coverage than DEAN did. Kerry was butchered and all but declared dead over the same period.

The truth is the voting public had other ideas and made their OWN choice, and when the went to voting booth the majority chose Kerry. The other part of that equation is that the supposed vast support Dean had was an illusion, and it did not materialize. That is not the fault of the media. That's not a conspiracy. That's the will of the voters. Yes, I'm sure there is some bandwagon effect as well, just as there has been some bandwagon effect for the Dean camp over the past year.

Yes, I'm getting really sick of the presumption from Dean supporters that if you are a Kerry supporter that it is because you are stupid and uninformed, and if you are a Dean supporter you are better informed and know what you're doing.

Kerry has an impressive history and record and is well qualified as a presidential candidate. I think he will be an excellent President.

[lastknowngood]

4. Didn't mean to call you a sheeple personally it's the flock

mentality of the voting that is infuriating. People vote without any idea what the candidates stand for. I have had conversations with people who are voting for Edwards because he's cute and for Kerry because he is dynamic leader who support Bush on the war. The lake of intellect in this country is truly astounding.

[joshcryer]

5. I don't think people who call names are looking to score points.

They're doing it, at least in this context, out of frustration. To say it's unfounded though I think is a bit shortsighted. You admit so much yourself, that people do follow movements.

If the news media had any intregity about themselves, they would not saturate us so much.

[eileen_d]

9. Frustration, I can understand - definitely -

So it is not completely unfounded. And thank you for your thoughtful post.

However, it's when people invoke "sheeple" from some imaginary moral or intellectual high ground that I call foul. And if people did not follow movements, how in the world would any candidate get more than one vote?

[joshcryer]

11. Well, they would get individual support.

That's the new paradigm here, between the Clark and Dean movements, that they are getting so much individual support. This is arguably irrespective of the medias coverage, because it's there in good times (good media coverage) and in bad (bad media coverage).

Basically I think it's hypocritical for any supporter to claim on one hand that their favored candidate is "doing good in the polls," and say it's "respective of the population," then have a candidate they do not support "do good in the polls" and say, "they're just following the movement!" Polls aren't the metric we should be looking at. We should be looking at the individual support a candidate has, imho.

[eileen_d]

13. Unfortunately, support is not the same as votes.

If support was what counted in the end, only political activists would have a say in who gets elected. Of course people who are politically active are more informed about politics, so the number of active supporters is certainly a factor to consider about evaluating a candidate. But it's not what counts on election day. Whether that's "right" or "wrong," it's how the systems seems to work.0

Poll numbers are not the same as votes either. I don't even pay attention to polls anymore, too many weird variables, and so I don't believe polls are an accurate reflection of the general public. However, I would imagine polls do draw on voters who are not supporters, and that's why poll numbers and support numbers sometimes conflict.

[joshcryer]

16. Yeah, but support does distingiush people from bandwagon jumping.

That's how I see it at least.

[Carni]

7. I'm ABB

But I am REALLY sick of the Kerry conspiracies (and I am normally a conspiracy enthusiast in my own right)

I see it this way..the man had enough balls to march on the mall and protest the Vietnam war during a time when that would not have been the smart thing to do if you were planning a career in politics. He can't be all bad or another gutless wonder IMO

I think the repukes are stoking the fires of the Kerry theories to divide the party - JMO but that is the way they operate and it seems to be working.

[blm]

10. I agree. The right has always known how to divide the left

by pushing the purist buttons.

[Carni]

12. They have it down to a science!

I really think they are pulling a number in this election...if they succeed in creating an enemy from within this time we're toast and they'll get the added benefit of getting us to do all their dirt digging for them!

[MAlibdem]

8. A Sheeple label marginalizes the efforts made by volunteers to convince

people who the best candidate is.

Kerry's volunteers, his staff, and Kerry himself did the best job at convincing people he should be President.

[JohnKleeb]

14. Of course

Funny thing is, I admit I am compromising but I would be compromising even more to support the two most poplar candiates here, Dean and Clark. The thing that made me for Kerry is his overall liberal views and the fact I could be idealistic yet pragmatic. Admire and like the man a bunch and DK too. These are the best two IMO.

[WilliamPitt]

15. It's a disgusting term n/t

[fujiyama]

17. Isn't it...

a Rush Limaugh term?

[Duder]

18. When I can't sleep...

I count Kerry supporters.

[woofless]

20. A young Kucinich firebrand tried to hang that label on

us today at WA caucus. I let it pass, but it rankled. I have supported Kerry since before he declared and did not like the bandwagon jumper inference. We had a tiny and friendly caucus and it wasn't worth the lung power to protest. We got one delegate to go to the county convention(me) and that is enough. By the end of April Kerry will be the last man standing and we will get them all anyway.

[JohnKleeb]

28. as someone who supports both men I apologize

Kerry is a great man and so is Kucinich. Sorry you got called a sheep woof. The cool thing about Kerry is that he agrees with me on many and many agree he has a chance :).

[woofless]

35. Thanks John, it's not a problem.

I liked the guy and he was right mostly. I am old enough and calm enough not let something like that get to me. Can't wait 'till you are old enough to vote. Should be sometime around the 2006 House elections shouln't it?

Woof

[_Jumper_]

21. I report, you decide

4) While there are numerous passionate Kerry supporters who vote, there are also voters who do not take the time to research candidates and instead choose to vote for whomever "looks strongest" at the time. These people may be voting for what appears to be the "wrong reason" -- but if so, what are you going to do about it? Deny these people the right to vote? Or attract them to your cause by calling them sheeple? (That last sentence should be laced with sarcasm.)



There is nothing wrong with supporting Kerry. I believe that most DU'ers that support him do so based on the issues. However, look at that graph. It is clear that most people who have went into a voting booth or attended a caucus and backed Kerry have done so soley because of the media.

[eileen_d]

22. Would you mind captioning your graph with your point? n/t

[woofless]

23. I would call them pragmatic.

[MurikanDemocrat]

26. The graph proves no such thing

The graph proves that Kerry rates highest in presidential preference nation wide. You have provided nothing to support your claim that people voting for Kerry at the primaries and caucuses are doing so solely because of the media.

[_Jumper_]

29. Why did he skyrocket during the interval between polls?

Did anything happen in that time that caused him to go from 9% to 49%? ;)

[eileen_d]

30. Lots of things happened

Any proof you care to offer that the only thing that happened was "the media"?

Also, any proof that polls reflect reality would be welcome. ;)

[_Jumper_]

31. The media was not the sole reason

However, such a large increase is not a result of all those people studying the issues. ;)

[eileen_d]

38. So if people chose Kerry for the "wrong" reason

shall we disenfranchise them? Or just demean them?

[MurikanDemocrat]

41. There was a large undecided number before the primaries

In addition, Kerry's numbers were increasing in the 7 to 10 days BEFORE the Iowa primary BEFORE the media attention.

I would agree that now, he is getting some benefit from the momentum and coverage. I don't think the media coverage is inappropriate though. The winner always gets the coverage, that's just how it works. You surely can't expect the media to praise and pump up a candidate for losing, can you?

[eileen_d]

27. Now that you've provided a caption

provide some actual cause and effect proof to back your conclusion that "the media" is responsible for the numbers in your graph.

[Old and In the Way]

45. Right data, wrong conclusion.

"It is clear that most people who have went into a voting booth or attended a caucus and backed Kerry have done so soley because of the media."

I disagree. Primaries are not general elections. People who take the time to attend have a higher political awareness then the general population. They are, as a group, evaluating all candidates and deciding who they think best represents their values and idea of a President.

Kerry's support was always there. It was not evident, true, because there was very little media attention on Kerry and his campaign start-up was fraught with problems. Media attention was mainly in the "What's wrong with Kerry's campaign?" mode.

But I think a defining moment for Kerry was when the Green Beret volunteered for his campaign based on Kerry's actions to save his life in a combat situation. That resonated with the people and it ignited the 1st stage of his campaign success in Iowa. But a story just carry's you so far. People have known Kerry for 35 years. They remember his heroism, both at war and for peace....and that was not a popular move for a career-minded politician. He has a solid, demonstrable record for supporting progressive issues. He's taken on the Bush Iran-Contra and BCCI scandels....so Democrats believe he'll be the strongest, most experienced Democrat to confront the shadow government and expose the decades long problems that now threaten to destroy our political institutions.

Sure, the media loves a winner and he's getting lots of positive media now. But don't think for a moment that people run to the voting booth and decided to vote for him because Bill Schneider said he was one to vote for. They looked at all the candidates and are choosing Kerry because he has the qualities that they value for President.

Media might influence GE's with apolitical voters, but primaries are another thing altogether.

[OneBlueSky]

24. nah . . . people supporting other candidates are frustrated . . .

and that's understandable . . . particularly among those who are younger and haven't gone through this process before . . . I think we Kerry supporters should understand this and express nothing but gratitude to the other candidates for what they each brought to his primary campaign . . . we all have the same goal, and we all know that whoever is nominated will be light years better than the guy we have to beat in November . . . Antonin Scalia can NOT become Chief Justice! . . .

[curse10]

25. yes

but I expected nothing less after the surprising turn of events in Iowa and New Hampshire. I'd been saying all along that Kerry had more support than people realized. DU is not indicative of real life. I think that's pretty darn obvious. I could name a dozen Kerry supporters 6 months ago. Heck, I might be able to name 15 now- and he's the front runner :-) But that's not been the reality during this primary-- he has a ton of support out there- Kerry always had the support-- just because they weren't obnoxious about it never meant it wasn't there.


I've been a Kerry supporter since day one of his campaign. (And even before that). And I've been called a lot names for it. But it's never made me change my mind. I'm a Kerry supporter to the end.

[Guaranteed]

32. Kerry's the wrong choice. If you could truly justify supporting him,

people wouldn't call you stupid.

[eileen_d]

39. You have a right to your opinion about Kerry

However, you are wrong assume you know why I or anyone else supports Kerry.

And if you think it's OK to call me stupid, there's no earthly reason why I should attempt to "justify" my support to you.

[mitchum]

43. Been meaning to ask...

just when is my "boy going down"?

Kerry 2004

[DJcairo2]

33. The people who diss Kerry for these reasons ought to be ashamed

But alas, there are so few that they couldn't even help their guy Dean come close to winning a single state.

[Spider Jerusalem]

34. I've been supporting Kerry for the nomination since November of '02.

So anyone who calls me a sheep is a bloody idiot who can go bugger himself, as far as I'm concerned.

[Nicholas_J]

36. I find it hysterical

That the supporters of a candidate who has such an overwhelming record of supporting Republicans, being supported by Republican, and who do not even bother to look carefully at that candidates record, or the liklihood that they will actually live up to their campaign promises, who has a long record of making campaign promises and then going back on them, have the temerity to call anyone else sheeple.

Pot meet Kettle.

[ibegurpard]

37. I would imagine as tired as I am of being called a kool-aid drinker

:shrug:

[eileen_d]

40. True, and I have never used that term to describe a Dean supporter.

I did call out a Dean supporter once, but I got my (well-deserved) slap from the moderators, so I don't plan on doing that again.

[mitchum]

42. Nah, fuck 'em if they can't take a loss

...I mean ANOTHER loss

Kerry 2004

[stickdog]

46. Many people have good reasons for voting for Kerry.

IMHO, far more don't.