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Email from Freeper brother in law on Kerry - please help me refute

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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 03:32 PM
Original message
Email from Freeper brother in law on Kerry - please help me refute
Edited on Sun Feb-08-04 03:56 PM by ProfessorPlum
It is looking more and more like it would take a very strange set of events for John Kerry not to end up as our nominee against Bush. As such, my Freeper relatives are starting to forward pieces of garbage like this to me. Please help me refute this smear piece by piece. I couldn't find anything about it on Snopes.

I did find a picture of the book cover:

http://www.tastymanatees.com/archives/000167.html

I don't see anything particularly bad about this - it certainly doesn't look like Iwo Jima to me, and except for the one guy singing they don't look particularly disrespectful. The upside down flag is a n S.O.S. signal.

I normally wouldn't bother with this, but one of the people on the mailing list is my other brother-in-law. Though he is influenced pretty heavily by his freeptard older brother, he still shows signs of becoming a real human being with a functional brain. I'd like to be able to refute this authoritatively for him.

As I said, this reads like the delusional rantings of a schizophrenia patient, but the "discourse" on Kerry is starting already.

Thanks in advance for your help - the tatics are pretty old ones, for example, critizing the war is aiding the enemy. That's pretty easy to refute, when you have people getting killed for no good purpose, criticizing a war is obviously the right thing to do. Is the veteran's day thing true?

I'd like more info on his testimony to congress about Vietnam war crimes, too. I saw a pretty chopped up transcript of that - it looked to me like his point was that we are putting people into a place where horrible tragedy occurs, and which they are a part of, and it is to no good purpose, so we should remove them. Is that the jist of it? The medals are an old canard - I can take care of that one. I don't know anything about Stewart Forbes, Collier Int'l or the vietnam human rights act - any help on that appreciated.

PP

----------------------------------------------------

If you are thinking about voting for Kerry read this!!!
Subject: Sen Kerry

I keep hearing "Vietnam Veteran" every time this joker makes a speech.
Below adds some perspective.

As Sen. John Kerry, Massachusetts Democrat, ..bid for the White House, Americans should know a few things about him that he might prefer go unmentioned - and I don't mean his $75 haircuts.

When Mr. Kerry pontificated at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial on Veterans Day, a group of veterans turned their backs on him and walked away. They remembered Mr. Kerry as the anti-war activist who testified before Congress during the war, accusing veterans of being war criminals. The dust jacket of Mr. Kerry's pro-Hanoi book, "The New Soldier," features a photograph of his ragged band of radicals mocking the U.S. Marine Corps Memorial, which depicts the flag raising on Iwo Jima, with an upside-down American flag.

Retired Gen. George S. Patton III charged that Mr. Kerry's actions as an anti-war activist had "given aid and comfort to the enemy," as had the actions of Ramsey Clark and Jane Fonda. Also, Mr. Kerry lied when he threw what he claimed were his war medals over the White House fence; he later admitted they weren't his.

Long after he changed sides in congressional hearings, Mr. Kerry lobbied for renewed trade relations with Hanoi. at the same time, his cousin C. Stewart Forbes, chief executive for Colliers International, assisted in brokering a $905 million deal to develop a deep-sea port at Vung Tau, Vietnam - an odd coincidence.

As noted in the Inside Politics column of Nov. 14 (Nation), historian
Douglas Brinkley is writing Mr. Kerry's biography. Hopefully, he'll
include the senator's latest ignominious feat: preventing the Vietnam Human Rights Act (HR 2833) from coming to a vote in the Senate, claiming human rights would deteriorate as a result. His actions sent a clear signal to Hanoi that Congress cares little about the human rights for which so many Americans fought and died. , the State Department ranked Vietnam among the 10 regimes worldwide least tolerant of religious freedom.

Recently, 354 churches of the Montagnards, a Christian ethnic minority, were forcibly disbanded, and by mid-October, more than 50 Christian pastors and elders had been arrested in Dak Lak province alone. On Oct.29, the secret police executed three Montagnards by lethal injection simply for protesting religious repression. The communists are conducting a pogrom against the Montagnards, forcing Christians to drink a mixture of goat's blood and alcohol and renounce Christianity. Thousands have been killed or imprisoned or have just "disappeared." the Montagnards lost one-half of their adult male population fighting for the United States; and without them, there might be thousands more American names on that somber black granite wall at the Vietnam memorial.

As Mr. Kerry run for the presidency, people must remember that he has fought harder for Hanoi as an anti-war activist and a senator than he did against the Vietnamese communists while serving in the Navy in Vietnam.

MICHAEL BENGE, Foreign Service officer and former Vietnam POW (1968 to 1973); Washington

Glenda J.
God Bless America And Our Troops!

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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, here's the origin of that letter
Edited on Sun Feb-08-04 03:38 PM by eileen_d
> >Washington Times
> >Letters to the Editor
> >December 6, 2002

Reference: http://www.vfvs.com/political_knowledge.html

You can also search the Moonie Times archives to confirm where it was published (but you have to pay for the whole article)
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
2.  Thanks, that's a good start NT
.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. Moonie propaganda letter.
.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I know - help me refute it
.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
5. refute it yourself
I would trash it and not allow yourself to become distracted from the real issues in this election.
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Ok, thanks for the help
I was hoping to be able to get out ahead of this kind of garbage this election with my in-laws.

I guess I'll have to go somewhere where Democrats help other Democrats refute smears on Democratic leaders by Republicans.

Thought it was this board though . . .

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Zinnola Donating Member (121 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. If you think the Freepers will not make this an issue
you're delusional. They will blow the Hanoi Jane story waaaaayyyy out of context, add lies and distort to the fullest. To blow this crap off appears arrogant on your part. If Kerry is to be the candidate his supporters best be on guard for this tripe and refute it aggressively before it gets twisted and knarled our of control.

If you don't believe me look what they did to Clinton.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. Please Allow Me To Kick This Thing's Ass
1. First of all, the $75 haircut thing was discredited. That was the price of Hillary Clinton's haircut at the same place. Kerry's was considerably cheaper.

2. Kerry was not responsible for the cover and had it immediately removed when he was shown it, and attempted to recover any copies that had gone out as such.

3. "Mr. Kerry lied when he threw what he claimed were his war medals over the White House fence; he later admitted they weren't his."

Here is a Salon piece that clarifies that Kerry never claimed that the medals were his:

From Kerry's perspective, of course, it was all pretty complicated and he never really understood what the brouhaha was all about. The medals were, after all, a highly personal matter. He'd ultimately decided to throw his also-important ribbons, and the medals he tossed were on behalf of some disabled vets. He never claimed to have thrown his own medals, and certainly the more important matter was that he had enlisted and fought bravely in the war, and had then come back to protest the atrocities he had participated in. And, it should be noted, in the "60 Minutes" interview with Kerry, which ran a mere four weeks after the 1971 demonstration on the Mall, Kerry refers to the "the emotion in the faces of those men who threw their medals back ... if you watch their faces, there was agony in them as they threw those things back," and so on, continuously referring to the medal-throwers in the third person, never including himself.

A couple pages after the photo of Sachs and others throwing their medals back are two different close-ups of the piles the vets left in their wake. "Look at that," Kerry says. "You see? A big deal was made about whether I threw back my medals or ribbons or whatever, but look. People threw everything. Ribbons. Discharge papers. Photographs. Certificates ..."

Indeed, that's what the photos show. In one photo, a veteran is throwing his cane. Kerry swallows. Slightly shakes his head.

http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/08/10/kerry/index2.html

4. Here is the Boston Globe on the opposition to Kerry by other veterans:

The White House found a better way to go after Kerry. (Nixon's White House Counsel Charles) Colson had seen a press conference featuring a young Navy veteran named John O'Neill, who served in the same swift boat division as Kerry shortly after Kerry left Vietnam. O'Neill, like many swift boat veterans, was outraged at Kerry's claim of US atrocities.

In short order, O'Neill became the centerpiece of the Nixon White House strategy to undermine Kerry. O'Neill, now a Texas lawyer, stresses that he did not receive any payment from the White House and was acting on his own because he thought Kerry's statements were unconscionable lies.

For weeks, Colson had been accusing Kerry of ducking a debate with O'Neill. On June 15, Colson wrote to another White House aide: "I think we have Kerry on the run, he is beginning to take a tremendous beating in the press, but let's not let him up, let's destroy this young demagogue before he becomes another Ralph Nader. Let's try to move through as many sources as we can the fact that he has refused to meet in debate, even though he agreed to do so and announced to the press he would."

The next day, O'Neill arrived at the White House to meet with Nixon. The two men bonded; a brief "grip and grin" session turned into an hourlong meeting, with Nixon bucking up O'Neill for the fight against Kerry.

Two weeks later, on June 30, the much anticipated debate took place. Kerry, who had been studying debate since he was about 14 years old, appeared with O'Neill on "The Dick Cavett Show." At 6 feet 4 inches, Kerry towered over Cavett and O'Neill. With his thick dark hair, dark blue suit, and lean features, he cut a striking figure.

O'Neill came out swinging. Visibly angry from the start, wearing a light suit, short hair, and white socks, O'Neill used words seemingly intended to taunt his opponent.

"Mr. Kerry is the type of person who lives and survives only on war-weariness and fears of the American people," O'Neill said. "This is the same little man who on nationwide television in April spoke of, quote, `crimes committed on a day-to-day basis, with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.' Who was quoted in a prominent news magazine in May as saying, `War crimes in Vietnam are the rule, not the exception."'

Where O'Neill was red-hot, Kerry sought to look calm and intellectual, toting a hefty briefing book. He said the veterans weren't trying to tear down the country, but instead say to the country: "Here is where we went wrong, and we've got to change. What we say is, the killing can stop tomorrow."

"On the question of war crimes, it is really only with the utmost consideration that we pose this question," Kerry said. "I don't think that any man comes back to say that he raped, or to say that he burned a village, or to say that he wantonly destroyed crops or something for pleasure. I think he does it at the risk of certain kinds of punishment, at the risks of injuring his own character, which he has to live with, at the risk of the loss of family and friends as a result of it. But he does it because he believes intensely that people have got to be educated about the devastation of this war. We thought we were a moral country, yes, but we are now engaged in the most rampant bombing in the history of mankind."

Again and again, the question was asked: Did Kerry commit atrocities or see them committed by others? Kerry stuck to his script.

"I personally didn't see personal atrocities in the sense I saw somebody cut a head off or something like that," Kerry said. "However, I did take part in free-fire zones, I did take part in harassment and interdiction fire, I did take part in search-and-destroy missions in which the houses of noncombatants were burned to the ground. And all of these acts, I find out later on, are contrary to the Hague and Geneva conventions and to the laws of warfare. So in that sense, anybody who took part in those, if you carry out the application of the Nuremberg Principles, is in fact guilty. But we are not trying to find war criminals. That is not our purpose. It never has been."

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml

5. As far as human rights violations in Vietnam, Kerry has long maintained that actions should be taken, but that disengagement is not necessarily the best option available - as was the case with Iraqi sanctions. This has certainly been borne out in Vietnam, where the human rights record and living standards have risen dramatically since normalization of relations.

6. Kerry protested free-fire zones while still serving honorably in Vietnam:

Kerry said he was appalled that the Navy's ''free fire zone'' policy put civilians at such high risk. So, on Jan. 22, 1969, Kerry and several dozen fellow skippers and officers traveled to Saigon to complain about the policy in an extraordinary meeting with Zumwalt and the overall commander of the war, General Creighton W. Abrams Jr. ''We were fighting the free fire policy very, very hard, to the point that many of the members were refusing to carry out orders on some of their missions, to the point where crews were starting to mutiny, to say, `I would not go back in the rivers again,''' Kerry recalled during a 1971 television appearance on the Dick Cavett Show.

But Kerry went back in the rivers. Indeed, it was after this meeting that he began his most deadly round of combat.

http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061703.shtml

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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. I should have known you'd come through, Dr. Funk
Ass-kickers for Kerry in 2004! :bounce:
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ProfessorPlum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Thank you, Doc
You hit it out of the park. Writing response now. . .
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. If you'd like to read more of the same...
Edited on Sun Feb-08-04 04:28 PM by eileen_d
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.org/

I believe it has been posted here before that one of the people behind this organization is also behind the anti-Clinton museum.

As for attacking this piece by piece - I'm game, so here are my first impressions (sort of a "to-do" list):

When Mr. Kerry pontificated at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial on Veterans Day, a group of veterans turned their backs on him and walked away. They remembered Mr. Kerry as the anti-war activist who testified before Congress during the war, accusing veterans of being war criminals. The dust jacket of Mr. Kerry's pro-Hanoi book, "The New Soldier," features a photograph of his ragged band of radicals mocking the U.S. Marine Corps Memorial, which depicts the flag raising on Iwo Jima, with an upside-down American flag.

This book exists, but as the saying goes "Don't judge a book by its cover." I would be interested in knowing more about the book's contents. As for Kerry's testimony "accusing veterans of being war criminals" - perhaps there is a transcript out there that belies this characterization. And obviously there are Vietnam veterans out there who disagree with Kerry's actions - if memory serves, it was a somewhat controversial war (understatement).

Retired Gen. George S. Patton III charged that Mr. Kerry's actions as an anti-war activist had "given aid and comfort to the enemy," as had the actions of Ramsey Clark and Jane Fonda. Also, Mr. Kerry lied when he threw what he claimed were his war medals over the White House fence; he later admitted they weren't his.

I've heard people on DU go back and forth about this "throwing medals" story, and I assume someone has the real goods on it. As for Patton's quote, finding that source would be helpful, as well as finding other perspectives on Kerry's war protesting.

Long after he changed sides in congressional hearings, Mr. Kerry lobbied for renewed trade relations with Hanoi. at the same time, his cousin C. Stewart Forbes, chief executive for Colliers International, assisted in brokering a $905 million deal to develop a deep-sea port at Vung Tau, Vietnam - an odd coincidence.

Again - source should be found for this "coincidence" theory.

As noted in the Inside Politics column of Nov. 14 (Nation), historian
Douglas Brinkley is writing Mr. Kerry's biography. Hopefully, he'll
include the senator's latest ignominious feat: preventing the Vietnam Human Rights Act (HR 2833) from coming to a vote in the Senate, claiming human rights would deteriorate as a result. His actions sent a clear signal to Hanoi that Congress cares little about the human rights for which so many Americans fought and died. , the State Department ranked Vietnam among the 10 regimes worldwide least tolerant of religious freedom.


Hyperbole if I ever saw it. Here is the original bill text:
http://usembassy.state.gov/posts/vn1/wwwhwf010907.html
Next step is to find Kerry's reasons for stopping the bill.

Recently, 354 churches of the Montagnards, a Christian ethnic minority, were forcibly disbanded, and by mid-October, more than 50 Christian pastors and elders had been arrested in Dak Lak province alone. On Oct.29, the secret police executed three Montagnards by lethal injection simply for protesting religious repression. The communists are conducting a pogrom against the Montagnards, forcing Christians to drink a mixture of goat's blood and alcohol and renounce Christianity. Thousands have been killed or imprisoned or have just "disappeared." the Montagnards lost one-half of their adult male population fighting for the United States; and without them, there might be thousands more American names on that somber black granite wall at the Vietnam memorial.

Nothing in the previous paragraph can be directly linked to Kerry. Nice "goat's blood" reference though.

As Mr. Kerry run for the presidency, people must remember that he has fought harder for Hanoi as an anti-war activist and a senator than he did against the Vietnamese communists while serving in the Navy in Vietnam.

It's easy to come to this conclusion without providing any information about Kerry's actual record of service in Vietnam. So finding a good summary of that should help defuse this.

UPDATED to change link to HR 2833 to US Embassy Hanoi press release
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
9. A start
Edited on Sun Feb-08-04 04:08 PM by sandnsea
Here's the Veteran's Forum, run by a Major and Kerry supporter. I believe the focus of the veterans for Kerry is basically that it's high time Vietnam Veterans be treated with at least as much respect as those who chose not to serve at all. And that they pick up where the WWII and Korean War vets left off, there's nobody advocating for vets today and it's hurting the GW1 and current vets. Time to put the past behind us and get a veteran's veteran in the White House.

http://forum.johnkerry.com//index.php?s=c9c256be2eb4dc2ecd2719f5a269d803&showforum=2

Now, I know that doesn't help with some of those right wingers who think we should still be fighting the commies in Vietnam.

I'm looking for the book rebuttal, there is one I just always thought it was stupid. (The issue, not the rebuttal)

On the Congressional testimony, he never testified against any one veteran and it was never his purpose to accuse veterans of war crimes. He would never have participated in that. His purpose was to tell Congress that the war had turned very ugly and wrong, with our knowledge of the My Lai massacre, we can't really deny he was telling the truth.

On normalization with Vietnam. It was that or create another NKorea. As far as I'm concerned, that is Kerry keeping faith with those 58,000 dead soldiers. Creating democracy in Vietnam through active engagement, making sure they didn't die in vain. Not abandoning Vietnam and losing it altogether. I don't know about the seaport either, but I did read that Kerry actually isn't related to the Forbes Magazine family, maybe not the one you mention either. He's related to a different family, old and wealthy, but maybe not the Steve Forbes family. I've tried to find more on that and will keep doing so.

Thanks for your help, no matter what happens in the primaries, it's good to let them know we're up for the fight.
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Jeebo Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. You've already refuted it yourself...
...when you pointed out that the writer is suggesting that criticizing the war is the same as consorting with the enemy. The writer of this piece of nonsense has done nothing to connect Sen. Kerry with any of the truly bad things that happened.

Ron
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
12. Another thought
Maybe you'll find some useful quotes in the Vet's Forum.

If this is your brother-in-law, perhaps the best tact is to take some of those quotes from actual vets in the forum and tell him it's time to stand up for our vets the way Kerry has been doing since the day he testified to Congress. Talking about book jackets and medals are silly when we've got families buying flak jackets on Ebay and soldiers coming home to hotel rooms instead of hospital beds. Embarrass them with their pettiness.

I think that's what our vets are planning to do.

And there's also a story about Kerry voting for benefits for alcoholics and drug addicts. Yep, he was supporting those vets again, trying to make sure they didn't lose what little help they got after what they'd been through in Vietnam.

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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
13. Article from the Atlantic profiling Kerry's service in Vietnam
Edited on Sun Feb-08-04 04:16 PM by eileen_d
An alternative perspective to refer to (which I haven't read yet, but wanted to post while it was on my mind):
http://www.johnkerry.com/brinkley/tour_of_duty.html

It is an excerpt from a book by David Brinkley coming out soon (or is it already out?)

Edit: and a handy summary of Kerry's service record:
http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/veterans/service.html
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. Freedom Fries?
This bozo is still pretending Freedom Fries is meaningful?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
16. Introduce the freepers to your local VVAW chapter
let him look those brave men in the face and call them traitors!
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Pops Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:33 PM
Response to Original message
17. Sorry, off topic, but...
I'm new here, what's a "Freeper"?

I understand who they are, but what exactly does it mean?

Again, sorry for being off topic.
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. Here's another article on the HR 2833 controversy
From the Montagnard Human Rights Association:
http://www.mhro.org/081402.htm

I tried to copy and paste but the page started freaking out in Javascript, so you'll have to read for yourself. It does include some information about Kerry's views on the bill.
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-08-04 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
20. What is wrong with Kerry having an expensive haircut?!!!!
sheesh, I got my haircut in NYC once, at Saks Fifth Ave women's salon. It cost me 100 bucks, tip included. I was kind of shocked, but -- it seems like it's not all that startling in the city.
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-04 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
21. Vietnam Vets Against the War statement by Kerry
Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry to the Senate Committee of Foreign Relations: April 23, 1971

Source: Tom Dier's Vietnam Homepage
http://pages.xtn.net/~wingman/docs/kerryst.htm

Since this is not an "official" source, here is another reprint from the Northwest Veterans Newsletter:
http://members.aol.com/bear317p/kerry.htm
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-09-04 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
22. Colliers International
Here is their web site, just FYI: http://www.colliers.com/Corporate/

I couldn't find anything via Google about the "C Stewart Forbes" connection that wasn't on a right-wing web site -- usually in the context of a hit piece similar to the email you posted. I'm sure the info's out there, just not surfable.
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