Bottom line is Kerry went and Bush didn't and it's an uncomfortable fact

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=703&e=4&u=/ap/20040208/ap_on_el_pr/vietnam_echoes

Vietnam Makes Echoes in Presidential Race

WASHINGTON - They were two years apart, these two Yale boys, these sons of privilege, and so the moment of truth came first for John Kerry (news - web sites), later for George W. Bush. Each faced the same life-changing question as did so many others of their generation: what to do about Vietnam. snip

Nearly 40 years later, the choices made by these two young men are reverberating through the presidential campaign as part of a larger debate over patriotism, leadership, duty, character. Each man is defined in part by the path he chose, and by the level of commitment he demonstrated along the way.

"We are all hostage to decisions we made in the past," said Douglas Brinkley, a history professor at the University of New Orleans who has written a book about Kerry's war years. "The bottom line is Kerry went and Bush didn't and it's an uncomfortable fact for a president" who has so eagerly wrapped himself in the flag as commander in chief. snip

Clark still has scars on his shoulder, hip and leg, and his right index finger was shortened by a bullet during a firefight with the Viet Cong.

more

[lancdem]

1. Douglas Brinkley is right

That's a major problem for Bush.

[lancdem]

2. Douglas Brinkley is right

That's a major problem for Bush.

[DrFunkenstein]

3. Not That Bush "Didn't" - He Had Daddy Pull Strings To Evade The Draft

Some folks are born made to wave the flag,
Ooh, they’re red, white and blue.
And when the band plays "Hail to the chief",
Ooh, they point the cannon at you, lord,

It ain’t me, it ain’t me, I ain’t no senator’s son, son.
It ain’t me, it ain’t me; I ain’t no fortunate one.

Some folks are born silver spoon in hand,
Lord, don’t they help themselves, oh.
But when the taxman comes to the door,
Lord, the house looks like a rummage sale, yes,

Some folks inherit star spangled eyes,
Ooh, they send you down to war, lord,
And when you ask them, "how much should we give? "
Ooh, they only answer more! more! more!

It ain’t me, it ain’t me, I ain’t no fortunate one.

[mn9driver]

4. Watch them spin it. They turned Gore's Vietnam tour

into some kind of "favored cakewalk". At least he was there; but talk to a Bush supporter and you'll probably find that they believe w's service was "better".

[Turkw]

38. They did, but Gore didn't lead men into combat, Clark and Kerry did, both

earned silver stars. A lot of difference, they will try to turn it into a "disrespecting the national guard" thing. The reserves and national guard are very different now.

[Enough is Enough]

5. Also, Bush scored lowest on tests for getting into Guard

But due to his connections, he was entered in the Guard ahead of many more with much higher scores and who had been on the list longer. Besides not showing up for duty and being grounded, I don't care that he was given an "Honorable" discharge. He didn't deserve it!

[Alopenia]

6. Didn't hurt Clinton against Bush I.

And those two were almost as disparate as you could possibly get in military extremes. Most people didn't care in 1992. I don't know that they care in 2004.

[DrFunkenstein]

7. 2004 Is About Commander-In-Chief Strategy By Bush

Sure it matters. Cocaine and Harken, I'm not so sure about. But I'll bring them up, anyway.

[NNN0LHI]

8. Were we at war back then? No? Didn't think so. Thanks anyway n/t

[Alopenia]

10. Uh...yeah we were.

Campaigns usually start at the beginning of the year before an election. Gulf War ended March, 1991. Thanks, anyway.

[blm]

12. WRONG. Clinton didn't even announce till Fall 2001.

Why so adamant about this?

It's NOT going away no matter how much pooh-poohing ANYONE does.

Get it?

[Alopenia]

17. Yeah? Kerry didn't announce until the summer, but was it any mystery

he was running? Come on. Candidates are unofficially running until WAY before the official announcement. Don't you remember Bill and Hillary being interviewed on 60 minutes in January, 1992?

[blm]

19. Wrong. He didn't start RUNNING until Oct.1991.

It was a bit different back then.

Would it be wrong of me to assume you're fairly young, or do you really just not remember?

[NNN0LHI]

15. The election wasn't until 1992. More than a year after the war was over

Clinton did not enter the race until September of '91. By then the war was over for 6 months. So no. We were not at war when Clinton ran for president. And therefore it was not an issue during the election cycle like it will be for this one.

Don

[Alopenia]

21. Since when do campaigns begin upon announcement?

Kerry announced last summer. Wasn't he deemed the frontrunner as early as late 2002? Clinton was interviewed on 60 minutes in January, 1992. Why do you think that was? To reminisce about his governorship? No. It's because everyone knew he was running for president. Sheesh.

[lancdem]

25. And by Jan. 1992

the Gulf War was long over. I don't understand your point.

[Alopenia]

27. You're right. Never mind. I was getting my years screwed up

My apologies to all of you for persisting on this point.

[Josh]

16. Clinton got into the race in October 1991

eom

[blm]

14. Wrong. Bush1 was a punk ass war criminal.

He bailed his plane before his crew get out. Another crew saw the whole thing and THOSE reports went missing, too.

He also strafed lifeboats for sport, the heartless bastard.

[lancdem]

20. The point is, Bush has wrapped himself in the flag

He's the one who's made it an issue, and Kerry can call him on it.

[dflprincess]

9. This was the Bush* statement on MTP this morning that bugged me the most

that if his guard unit had been called to Vietnam he "would have gone".

Let's remember - no guard unit, not one, was called up for Vietnam. That's why every unit in the country had a waiting list -including Bush's - and there's another question for him, how did he get in so easily? (I know the answer to that.) Everyone knew that, during Vietnam, the Guard was a legal way of avoiding the war.

As for Bush I being and veteran and Clinton not being one. Bush I was a WWII vet, Clinton period of service would have been during Vietnam. I think most Americans see WWII service vs not serving in Vietnam as comparing apples and oranges.

[Alopenia]

11. Sorry, it ain't going to matter

Most voters today don't care if a guy was a veteran or not. It may have mattered in 1948. It didn't in '92. It won't now.

[blm]

13. It AIN'T GOIN' AWAY. Whether you like it or not.

.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

18. Answer:

9/11.

[Alopenia]

26. Kerry can run on Iraq

If he runs on 9-11, he's going to get killed. Two different things.

[eileen_d]

23. Are you most voters?

I guess we'll find out.

[lancdem]

24. Security issues will matter a lot more in this election

than they did in 1992, 9/11 being one of the reasons. We can't run a candidate who's weak on that.

[Tansy_Gold]

36. the difference: Bush lied/lies; Clinton didn't

Correct me if I'm wrong:


Clinton never said he served, never tried to put a face on his lack of service to make it something it wasn't. He didn't get drafted, he didn't volunteer. He said he was against the war and chose a legitimate way to get out. He chose the same route so many repukes -- Ashcroft, Lott, DeLay, et alia -- chose, except he never tried to put any spin on it the way some of them did, like DeLay trying to pretend there was no room for him because all the spaces had been taken by African Americans and Latinos.

*AWOL, on the other hand, spins and dodges and evades and lies. He was never at risk, never served, had someone else's "pull" to get him into a cake unit that never put him in danger of going to Vietnam -- yet he continues to spew his bullshit of having done his patriotic duty. Did he shirk his last year of active service? He can't prove he was anywhere he was supposed to be. Show us some flight logs, W. Show us some photos of you and your buddies on the base. Find a friend -- didn't you even HAVE any friends? -- who will vouch for you and show us some hard evidence. But he never seems able to do that. . . .

Reports out today suggest that in 2000 McCain refused to bring it up and even the Gore team wouldn't make it an issue. Neither makes any sense to me at all.

But now it's coming out. Now Kerry is making an issue of it, and Clark certainly could if he wanted to, and * doesn't seem to be able to shut them up. He can't provide the cold hard evidence that says, "Eat shit and die, assholes. I was THERE and I got PROOF." I mean, for crying out loud, his fucking presidency is on the line and he can't provide military records to show he served out his enlistment? :wtf:

I don't know why McCain wouldn't push it or Gore in 2000, but I think it's extremely important that it be done now, relentlessly. In 1992, Bush 1's war was over, and he was in trouble on a dozen other issues, especially the economy. I don't think Clinton could have taken him had the popularity boost GHWB got from GW1 hung around. But it didn't, and he was vulnerable. W perhaps thought he could get the same kind of bounce from Iraq, or even bigger because he took out Saddam when his daddy couldn't, but the quagmire trapped him and made the whole military experience a true campaign issue.

9/11 didn't change the conscience of the electorate regarding military experience, but the invasion of Iraq and the failure to achieve a clean, bloodless, lasting peace there have made the whole issue of military experience germane to an election in which two of *'s challengers have proven military experience.

John McCain could, I think, have blown * out of the water in 2000 on this issue if war had been a current issue, but it wasn't. Maybe Al Gore's military experience wasn't deep enough to provide a vital contrast in peace time; it might be different today. But the contrast between * and both Kerry and Clark is glaring, especially in a time when U.S. military personnel -- including National Guard personnel -- are fighting and dying in *'s unnecessary war.

[mlawson]

22. Fair enough. But Kerry is going to have to USE this during the campaign.

Will he do it?? Will his advisors warn him away from it??

And OTOH, there is a political risk involved: if the apoliticals think that Kerry is 'being mean to the President', as mindless as that would be, they might rally around the guy they LIKE the best. This happened in 1980 when Carter tried to expose Ronnie's extremism. It's a two edged sword.

[NNN0LHI]

28. AP - Kerry Questions Bush on Guard Service

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=694&ncid=716&e=2&u=/ap/20040209/ap_on_el_pr/democrats

<snip>Accepting Warner's endorsement in Richmond, Kerry said Bush had not fully answered questions about whether he fulfilled his National Guard service in Alabama during the Vietnam War.


"The issue here is, as I have heard it raised, is was he present and active in Alabama at the time he was supposed to be," said Kerry, a decorated Vietnam War veteran. "I don't have the answer to that question and just because you get an honorable discharge does not in fact answer that question."

[NNN0LHI]

29. Some Of The Military records of George Walker Bush

The Military records of George Walker Bush


http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/document.htm

The following documents were obtained using the processes outlined in the Freedom Of Information Act

Document 2 - ( doc2.gif)-Second Bush request for temporary transfer

Document 4 - ( doc4.gif) -Annual Officer Effectiveness Report part 1

Document 5 - (doc5.gif)-HQ disallows transfer

Document 6 - ( doc6.gif)-lt. Colonel Brickens Response

Document 7 - ( doc7.gif) -First transfer request

Document 9 - ( doc9.gif)-Annual Officer Effectiveness Report part 2

Document 10 ( doc10.gif)- Chronological Listing

Document 11 - ( doc11.gif)-HQ approval.

Document 12 - (doc12.gif)-HQ request for more information

Document 14 - ( doc14.gif)-Bush duty assignments

Document 16 - (doc16.gif)-1973 days credited.

Document 17 - ( doc17.gif)-Orders to report for active duty.

Document 20 - ( Doc20.gif)- Bush request for discharge from Texas Air NationalGuard and Transfer to inactive reserves

Document 21 - ( Doc21.gif)- Texas Air National Guard OK for transfer to inactive reserves

Document ANG22 -( ang22.gif) - Bush discharge papers

Document 23 - ( doc23.gif)-Penalty for bad attendance

Document 24 -( doc24.gif) -Statement of intent: "Flying is lifetime goal."

Document 25 - ( doc25.gif)-TXANG Request to be notified if Bush is assigned to reserves. May 72

Document 26 -( doc26.gif)- Contract of Service

Document 27 -( doc27.gif)- Request Discharge

Document 28 - ( doc28.gif)-"Not available for administrative reasons."

Document 30- ( grounded.gif)- Bush's suspension from flying.

[killbotfactory]

30. No one gives a shit

Vietnam was 40 fucking years ago.

[NNN0LHI]

31. I am someone and I give a shit. Blows that theory out of the water n/t

[IndianaGreen]

32. Anyone that wants to resurrect Vietnam, will have to deal with war crimes

One cannot tell the sanitized and glorified portion of Vietnam's history that Americans prefer without also talking about its uglier side. I have been saying that Vietnam should remain at rest, but if people want to talk Vietnam, I am quite happy to talk Vietnam.

I will reiterate that Vietnam was a Democratic war, started under the Truman Administration when the US backed the French return to Indochina as a colonial occupier, breaking a promise of independence made to Ho Chi Minh.

Republican and Democratic Administrations, and Democratic-controlled Congresses have blood on their hands!

The following story involves former Nebraska Governor and Senator Bob Kerrey:

U.S. Must Investigate Alleged War Crimes
Kerrey Revelations Raise Bigger Issues, Says Rights Group

(New York, May 8, 2001) United States Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld should launch an independent investigation into allegations of possible war crimes by U.S. troops during the Vietnam War, Human Rights Watch said today.

The inquiry should examine whether certain U.S. military policies, orders and practices during the war, particularly those regulating special operations and unconventional warfare, constituted or led directly to the commission of war crimes by U.S. forces.

In a letter to Secretary Rumsfeld, Human Rights Watch said recent disclosures by former Senator Bob Kerrey concerning his service as a junior officer in a Navy SEAL team in 1969 suggested that certain military units then operated under standing orders or employed methods that directly violated the Fourth Geneva Convention, resulting in "grave breaches" of that Convention, or war crimes.

"The Kerrey disclosures have reopened bitter debates about the Vietnam War," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "But that doesn't mean the U.S. can shirk its responsibility to find the truth and pursue justice. As a party to the Geneva Conventions since 1955, the U.S. had, and still has, a clear legal obligation to investigate possible war crimes by its forces in Vietnam."

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/05/kerrey0508.htm

[eileen_d]

33. Please notify your local veterans of your opinion.

Better yet, stand in front of the "fucking" wall in DC and shout it.

[IndianaGreen]

35. 58,000 dead GIs and 3 million dead Vietnamese, all died because of lies

We lied to the Vietnamese when we promised them independence for helping us defeat the Japanese. We helped the French reclaim their former colony instead.

We lied again when we said we wanted free elections in Vietnam after the French were driven out in 1954, by staging a phony election with a Catholic as Presidential candidate after polls showed that Ho Chi Minh would have won a free election.

We lied when we said that our destroyers Maddox and Turner Joy had been attacked by North Vietnamese gun boats, and had Congress pass the IWR of its day, the Tonkin Gulf Resolution. The truth was that our ships were in support of covert CIA-South Vietnam operations against the North. There were no North Vietnamese gun boats.

Lies, lies, and more lies!

[killbotfactory]

37. So every vietnam vet would make a good president?

I know it's on the minds of every voter. Everyone asks "Did he serve in Nam?". I hear nothing about what they will do about the economy, healthcare, terrorism...

[eileen_d]

39. That's not what I said, of course

I don't think every vietnam vet would make a good president. I don't think military service should be a prerequisite for presidential candidates. And I don't think that service in Vietnam is what is on voters' minds.

Your words were: "No one gives a shit. Vietnam was 40 fucking years ago."

I interpreted this to mean "No one gives a shit about the Vietnam War and/or those who fought there." And if you think that's true, please, do follow my original suggestions.

[KittyWampus]

34. Bottom Line- Kerry Voted For IWR And AGAINST Going Into Kuwait

AWOL was a long time ago.

Too bad Kerry can't stand up to Bush because he compromised his intergrity by voting for Bush's agenda.

Leadership is about standing up for DOING THE RIGHT THING and not going with the masses because you want to run for President.

clalrk os the only candidate who was against Bush's war and can stand up to him with both National Security and Military credentials.