Why We MUST Impeach (Mary Lyon)

[Tace]

Mary Lyon, From The Left -- World News Trust

Nov. 13, 2006 -- It’s really a no-brainer. We simply HAVE to do it. We HAVE to IMPEACH George W. Bush. There really is no other way and no other priority in the wake of the Democratic takeover. ALL other priorities MUST lead to this.

All I’m seeing at the moment is a return to the galling and spineless gentility of Democrats “making nice.” Seems Nancy Pelosi, and even John “Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee” Conyers, want only to extend olive branches and get along and not rattle any cages. Accountability, anyone? Well, MAYBE, if we’re lucky and they decide they really do need to the people’s business and start investigating some of the shenanigans that have gone on previously unchecked and mindlessly rubberstamped. But the most important rectifying mechanism, IMPEACHMENT, is “off the table.” Hello? Were they snoozing through November 7th? Did they not hear that previously-ignored group -– “We the People” –- literally roaring its collective heads off? The status quo is OUT, as are a great many of those who relentlessly, ruthlessly, and willfully insisted on it.

IMPEACHMENT should absolutely be ON the table. It should be the centerpiece on that table, as a matter of fact. I’m looking at this from several perspectives to support this assertion.

First, as a mom. If my kids committed some deliberate, egregious wrong, shouldn’t there be punishment? If I, as their mother, fail to show them that there are consequences for bad deeds, what will they learn? And what kind of mother will that prove me to be? Negligence wouldn’t even begin to describe it. You love them to absolute pieces. But that does NOT mean you turn a blind eye to their running amok. Bad behavior should NEVER be reinforced, let alone benignly ignored -- and certainly NEVER rewarded -– by allowing the bad behavior to continue unchecked. Even Dr. Laura would have to agree with that one.

Second, as an employer. As a voter and taxpayer, I am the boss of my elected representatives -– whether they like it or not (fortunately, mine, Democrats all, probably do). THEY work for ME. It’s NOT the other way around. I have never been in any business where one of the employees, and yes, even the management, is not held to account for bad behavior, poor performance, getting the company sued, losing the company a lot of money, or face -– in bad PR, or lousy decision-making. NEVER. Poor results were NEVER supported or sustained, nor were the people responsible for them. Eventually, heads rolled. ALWAYS. NO program director at ANY radio station at which I worked EVER survived very long after presiding over a stretch of bad ratings. EVER. Sometimes the general manager ate it, too. I’ve seen instances where the housecleaning was so thorough that even the general sales manager and several secretaries and executive assistants to the purged upper-management people also got the boot. Those who’d preach the gospel of “running the government like a business” have never weighed in on this aspect of the business template.

more

http://www.worldnewstrust.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=599

[nam78_two]

1. K&R

Excellent-we need more articles like this out there.

[zann725]

45. Agreed. K&R too!

[partylessinOhio]

2. Yes, impeach *!

I want to see those same looks on the faces of Poppy, Barbara, Jebbie and all the other Bushes that they showed on election night 2000 when they made a fast exit from their table at a restaurant when they didn't like that the vote count was going to Gore.

[dicknbush]

40. My point of view is we can not begin to reconcile with the Iraqi Nation until we prosecute the :

Criminals Responsible for this travesty and crime against the Iraqi people. That of course begins with Bush and Cheney Powell Rice, Rumsfeld, Bolton Perle Wolfowitz etc etc etc. Thank you Germany for beginning the process that is necessary to show true contrition for the pain and suffering we have brought to the nation of Iraq!

PS Just as a funny aside if you put Wolfowitz into your message and then his spelling check the word that the computer suggests as repalcement is.....HALFWIT!

[calimary]

3. It's. Just. Time.

I no more want to leave the bad behavior in the Oval Office unaddressed, unchecked, and unpunished than I would allow my kids to run amok, vandalizing the neighborhood or cheating on tests in school - without there being consequences. It's time SOMEONE parented little junior - effectively. It's time for SOMEONE to say NO to him. AND MEAN IT.

[MS Liberal]

5. You are wrong!!!!

Getting out of Iraq should be our first priority. Impeachment should not happen before we get our soldiers out of Iraq. If the administration stands in the way of getting them out of Iraq, then we have no choice but to proceed with impeachment.

[puebloknot]

12. Yes, but...

I share your passion for getting our soldiers out of Iraq. My daughter and I have a friend named Sarah serving over there, and we think of her every day. Not to mention her many comrades in arms. I'm a WWII soldier's daughter. I know about the importance of putting our military in top position in our national consciousness.

However, I think *you* are a bit mistaken, and that this question is a many-faceted one. The war is at the top of the list of the Bush regime's many crimes, but there are many others. We have lost our civil rights, we are living in a police state, although at the moment we are still wining and dining and going to the movies, just as the citizens of Europe were doing before the Nazis put an end to it -- with unbelievable speed, it seemed. What they didn't appreciate in Europe was that tyranny was tunneling under their usual day-to-day life without their realizing it. That's happening in America, too.

Congress is a large body, and there are enough people there to both work on troop redeployment *and* work on domestic issues -- including, and most importantly, reining in an out-of-control president and his entourage.

A lot of people don't like to hear this Nazi stuff, but the parallels between what happened over there and what is happening here are remarkable. Impeachment should begin, hand in hand with investigations and documenting of crimes, as soon as possible. It's the tool given to us by the Constitution (oh, yeah, that!) to control a rogue government -- which we assuredly have in the Bush administration.

We have to realize that we are in power and that we aren't going to put on a charade and call it justifiable impeachment, like the Republicans did. I don't think this is an either/or situation, and that beginning the process of impeachment will act as a tool to pressure our government to bring our troops home.

I wish I could say that *anything* is going to inspire bringing our troops back to us quickly. Maybe Mr. Murtha can do the deed. I hope so.

My sincere thoughts.


Judy Barrett, Citizen
United States of America

[calimary]

14. Your reference to "this Nazi stuff" could also be filed in the "Things That

Need To Be Said" file. VERY much so.

When I attended a DNC "Listening Event" back in January, 2005, when the big controversy involved whether Howard Dean should be named the new chairman, this very point came up among one of the hundreds of people who spoke - about 99.5 percent of whom wanted Dean as party chair - and wanted this rather ardently. There was this little old gent, sort of bent over and wrinkled, who got up to speak, and he identified himself as a WW2 vet (winning a large round of applause from the rest of us). He said he was old enough to recognize fascism and the rise of Naziism when he saw it, having lived through it decades earlier. And he said he was deeply troubled to be seeing it HERE, NOW (and, mind you, THAT was almost two years AGO). At that point in his remarks, of course, you could hear gasps all over the SRO auditorium where the "Listening Event" was held. We knew instinctively that this elderly man was correct.

You aren't overstating this, or exaggerating. I couldn't agree more.

[puebloknot]

19. There's a scene from...

...Judgment at Nuremburg where the esteemed Spencer Tracy used your exact words: "These are things that *need* to be said."

Unfortunately, a lot of younger people sort of feel about WWII that "that was then, this is now." The physicists tell us that time is not linear, and I've been living, for six years now, with the disturbing feeling that we're in a time warp, and we're going through it all again.

I'm feeling really distrubed at the number of people in this country who seem ready to just join ranks with the Republicans in harmonious trust, and move forward.

I've made the point in other posts, and it's become my mantra over this issue: Healing cannot occur until the wound is cleansed.

We've got some cleansing to do!

Thanks for weighing in.


Judy Barrett, Citizen
United States of America

[calimary]

30. That's one helluva great statement there -

"Healing cannot occur until the wound is cleansed.

We've got some cleansing to do!"

Bring on the cauterization. It's tough medicine that's prescribed, but such is the nature of the ailment that only tough medicine will bring relief and healing.

Great quote - mind if I borrow it?

:thumbsup:

[puebloknot]

32. Don't mind at all

Prescribe it, dispense it, use it for therapy! If it helps, that's good.

I, of course, may want to borrow from you in return!

"Healing the nation," while is has a poetic ring to it, is something that politicians use, and very often quite cynically, I think.

I heard Howard Dean use that expression very recently: "I want to heal this nation." I believe him, I just don't know what his protocol will be. I've also heard Nancy Pelosi bandying that phrase about.

I remember hearing this phrase over and over again from the Republicans right after Selection 2000. "Now we can heal." Yeah, right, after commiting Grand Theft, Nation.

So, hearing that frequently caused me to have that vision, in concert with thinking about Mandela's Truth and Reconciliation commissions. Before you get the reconciliation, before you get off the hook, you have to tell the truth and make amends. In some cases, you have to go to jail!

[calimary]

34. You just reminded me of what I think was the first sentence in Jimmy

Carter's inaugural speech - thanking President Ford for all he did "to heal our land" after Watergate.

Hey, if EVER there was a time when healing was urgently needed, it's now - after the last six years of utter agony!

And by the way, isn't it part of the Twelve-Step Program - to confess your transgressions, and MAKE AMENDS, before the "let's-move-on" part can begin? There has to be a cleansing, a national effort to repair what's been broken, a symbolic gesture to the world that we've awakened, grown up, and accepted responsibility for - AND embracing - atonement.

In one way, bush ought to welcome this for the sake of cleansing his conscience. After all, he fancies himself some sort of latter-day messiah, using Christ's own reference to bowing to a "higher Father." Why would he not eagerly accept the role of "sacrificial lamb"?

BTW - "Grand Theft, Nation" is another GREAT one!

:toast:

[ClassWarrior]

36. .

[puebloknot]

58. "...for the sake of cleansing his conscience."

Conscience? What conscience? He doesn't need to worry about that because he's got.......The Rapture!!!

[ClassWarrior]

23. John Dean's new book says we ain't there yet... but we're well on the way...

...to fascism. We can't just leave the door open for another batch of manipulative authoritarian criminals to waltz in and hijack our nation.

We will be fair, but we must be strong.

NGU.

[puebloknot]

28. Hear, hear!

I just read "Kristallnacht" by Martin Gilbert.

The dark road from "we ain't there" to "we're lost" is a short one, and there are no street lights!


Judy Barrett, Citizen
United States of America

[RC]

4. Forgetaboutit.

There are more important things on the table. jr will get his, just have patience.

[loves_dulcinea]

8. function without impeachment

run investigations, sure, but hold the impeachment proceedings as some sort of sword of damocles.

if he gets lippy, trot out some abomination of his easy days.

if he doesn't shut up, then, release even more information about what sort of abominations he was running.

in short, black-mail the son of a whore into running the govt responsibly.

[AntiFascist]

13. That is an interesting strategy...

slowly drip the investigatory revelations like a form of Chinese water torture.

[calimary]

16. I'm hoping that Henry Waxman builds such a thick case file of high crimes

and misdemeanors that even the balkers won't be able to hesitate any longer. It will be, dare I quote george tenet, a slam dunk. Hopefully IMPEACHMENT by then will be a foregone conclusion, and quite unavoidable. Remember - it was the GOP, back in Nixon's day, who prevailed upon him to resign, telling him he'd finally lost all possible support, including theirs, and that impeachment was a certainty. It was his own party that put the final nail in the coffin of his presidency. Hopefully by the time Waxman's dug deeply into the dirt, even today's republi-CONS won't be able to excuse george anymore.

[MichiganVote]

6. For pete's sake, the lame duck session only began today....

I think this talk of impeachment is ridiculous at this time.

[calimary]

7. Respectfully disagree.

It HAS to be on the table. It qualifies under the general file of Things That Must Be Said. For heaven's sakes, what will history say of us if we sat there, rationalizing why we should tiptoe around holding this asshole COMPLETELY and THOROUGHLY accountable for the biggest debacle in American foreign policy history - especially one that was DELIBERATE, NOT accidental, one that was by choice and not necessity, one that was born of 100 percent LIES and NO truth.

It's one thing to lie about cheating on your spouse. It's another to lie about a war you've got a big fat hard-on to get us into, and get thousands of people killed, and hundreds of thousands more maimed, disabled, and traumatized.

Getting us out of Iraq is supremely important, as per another post by MS Liberal (Welcome to DU, btw!) farther upthread. But just as important if not moreso is punitive action that would serve as a warning to any and all future presidents who choose to let their power go to their heads.

[MichiganVote]

11. Well cali I appreciate the respect, but I have a few questions

for the impeach now crowd and your post makes it easy for me to ask them. So here goes...

You say, "It HAS to be on the table."

Ok. Why? or Why now? Is * going anywhere? No. Regrettably, he is in office for almost two more years barring...death or impeachment. I haven't listened to any Dem tiptoeing or rationalizing away impeachment. What I have heard is a plan to help this country, with a war, with the economy, healthcare... a whole host of things. All things that people have been hungry for in the last six years. People voted the prior Congress out b/c they are hungry for these things. They need help.

Is impeachment alone all that is wanted? I mean let's face it, if * were to be magically transposed into the same cell as Saddam Hussein wouldn't that really be closer to the reality that the impeachers want? So how is anyone going to be fully satisfied with the demise of * via impeachment? In the meantime....what about the people who are in need? They can't eat, work or sleep accountability.

You ask, what will history say? Do you know that George Washington, Lincoln, FDR, Wilson, indeed, every president who has ever been to war has been vilified? That they have all been shown to have lied about some serious aspect of the wars they initiated or were involved in? I don't like *, never have. Thought he was a jerk from way back. Plug in the likes of Cheney and Rumsfeld and ANYONE alive during Nam' KNEW these guys would war somewhere, with someone. Lying in Washington is like breathing. It will never be erradicated.

I want accountability for * too. Securing the Congress was a step in the right direction and a much needed one. I have little doubt that they are scared shitless, for the time being. The time being is now and I believe that is the genesis of the push for impeachment. Meaning, people are afraid that something will be lost, some moment in history missed if somehow an impeachment process is not begun....tomorrow?

Maybe. Maybe not too.

There is a grudge match going on in Washington, cali. Impeachment will not end it. The evangelicals, the money men, the conservative or die-hard republicans....they don't care about * anymore. He's worthless to them now. He lost what they always want---power. Power to win, power to provide for themselves, power to overpower, power to go to war, stay in a war and mismanage war to maximize profits.

There WILL BE an accounting and * and Cheney will be a part of that. But pushing for impeachment now, today, as though it is the only thing for the Dem leadership to do, as if without it they are powerless...is just not true.

If a true and viable impeachment process were begun in Washington, all other business would cease. The political process in Washington would simply become rigidly partisan and cease. Including the debate or plans to end this very war that you and I both hate. Not to mention the much needed diplomacy re: Iran, Korea, China, etc.

[puebloknot]

15. Impeachment in its own due time

Because I've been posting all over DU about impeachment (I favor it), I feel a need to clarify that those of us who are supporting impeachment know that we cannot do it *now* with this lame duck congress.

And, we know that it will not happen instantly if the *new* Congress acts to start impeachment. *That* would be ridiculous.

What we are calling for is an immediate move to investigate and document the crimes of this administration, when we take power in January, and then bring them to justice through the constitutionally-mandated process of impeachment.

We're not malilcious Republicans who want to jerk an opponent around with the impeachment process. We are Majority Democrats (how sweet it sounds) who are called on to bring back the rule of law to this country.

Just because we're talking about impeachment now does not suggest that we are not aware that it is a *process,* does not constitute a demand for premature action.

Best,

Judy Barrett, Citizen
United States of America

[calimary]

17. Now THERE is an elegant argument!

Yes, of course there's not much point now, today, this week, this month, or next. Until our people formally take over in early January, there's still not a lot of ANYTHING effective we can do. Certainly nothing that'll stick, or that has any teeth to it.

But I favor IMPEACHMENT. ABSOLUTELY. There has to be accountability. This is NOT payback. This is NOT some pissant revenge. That cheapens it, certainly, and renders it pretty damned illegitimate. It's a matter of seeking justice and redress for grievous wrongs, not to mention sending a VERY strong and healing signal to the rest of the world that we ARE about justice (rather than torture, cronyism, corruption, theft, death, cheating, and unilateral preemptive war based on lies), and that we not only recognize grievous wrongs but recognize our honor-bound DUTY to correct them. It's the ultimate result of holding this war criminal and his vermin friends FULLY accountable.

Besides, if he is NOT held to account, and made to pay dearly for multiple crimes of such grave magnitude, he'll just figure he got away with it, and his followers, supporters, and apologists will see that they can, too. "Can't be that big a deal then, can it? Nobody did anything about it."

The last thing I want to do as a loyal, patriotic American, is know that I did nothing to stop and then to rectify the crimes done in MY name and on MY dime. I don't ever want it said about me that because I did not seek redress, well then, it was okay with me that this happened. No biggie.

Sorry. It IS a biggie. At least to me.

[MichiganVote]

18. Well from what I've read, you're in a minority. Most impeachers

are preaching it's now or never, doomsday, Dem's are wimps or else and so on and so forth. IMHO,at this time its pointless, a distraction and hardly a viable option. There is no impeachment process. There is a push for premature action to talk, walk and run toward impeachment and its going to backfire and make Dem's look like opportunists.

Time. We all need time in this country to digest the latest government changes.

[ClassWarrior]

22. Wow, nice job shoving your own fears and prejudices into other people's mouths...

I thought it was only the Limbaughs and Hannitys of the world who presume to tell others what they think. And then make up cute little names like "impeachers" to hang around their necks.

NGU.

[MichiganVote]

54. I didn't put words in your mouth or the mouth of the poster I was responding to

As to the shortened term, "impeacher", mere communication on my part. My apologies.

I should have said, the Almighty, Queenly, Sacred, Holier Than Thou Impreachist Faction.

[puebloknot]

25. Maybe we've been reading different threads...

...because most of the posts I've seen do not lead me to believe that people are unintelligent enough to advocate doing something about impeachment tomorrow morning, in the face of a total brick wall.

We have to be careful in a forum like this not to project something onto a poster's message that was not there.

There is certainly an impeachment process outlined in the Constitution, and unless we are willing to assume that's a *gone* document -- and I sure as hell am not -- then I think we have to pressure our new House members to get on it.

Time. Time is something a lot of young people shouldering a rifle in Iraq do not have.

I don't know who it is you're quoting above, but I haven't seen this kind of expression in any of the impeachment threads I've seen.

There's something called self-esteem that we as humans wrestle with. As a group, as Dems, we need to have the self-respect to know that we are not selling snake oil when we propose impeachment. If we can't believe in justice, how can we influence our government to do their duty as our elected representatives?

I, for one, don't intend to spend much time worrying about what fanatical Republicans are going to say. We, as individual citizens, need to set a mature tone and keep to it.


Judy Barrett, Citizen
United States of America

[MichiganVote]

53. That we have read the same or different threads is immaterial.

Afterall, from the look of things people are making up their minds anyway. I don't recall speaking to the intelligence of anyone with regard to anyone's point of view.

I am aware there is a Constitution, I follow it daily. Mixing in the lies this administration created, the distortions, and the outright denial does not a soldier bring home. And before you protest, I have been against the war in Iraq from the beginning and there are six of my son's friends there now. I think I know a little about this war and an impeachment is not an exit strategy.

I'm glad you believe in justice. So do I. And if investigations bring about an open impeachment process, good. But some posters ARE delivering some very serious aspersions on Dem's who haven't even opened the windows of their new offices, let alone booked a seat on an impeachment process that has not begun.

[rinsd]

9. The first argument is embarrasing and harkens to the rw w/Clinton

Is it so hard to make convincing arguments for impeachment that people are warming up rw leftovers from 1998?

[calimary]

10. Not at all. My point here is - this colossal botch-job of a presidency,

with all its crimes, lies, war, etc., MUST be punished. MUST be addressed. Otherwise it sends a signal that I don't think any of us EVER would really want to send - that somehow we'll just "move on" and be okay with letting this sleeping dog lie. I'm sorry, but I just CAN'T. Just CANNOT.

Besides, referencing the Clinton impeachment, it's NOT about payback here. That's not my point. It's rehabilitating the entire concept of IMPEACHMENT as a punishment that fits the crime. IMPEACHMENT is grave enough, as a punitive measure, that it should be applied in only the gravest circumstances, when there REALLY ARE high crimes and misdemeanors of the magnitude of bush's misdeeds. To trivialize such a serious punitive measure by applying it to a personal pecadillo between consenting adults is reckless, partisan, idiotic, and frankly, BENEATH us. The very concept of IMPEACHMENT needs to be rehabilitated after being trivialized and diminished as the GOP did. I submit it would elevate IMPEACHMENT back up to the serious level where it deserves to be, rather than being reduced by a bunch of petty partisan pissants.

[rinsd]

33. Its not the payback angle which is in itself politically tricky.

Its the rehashing of "what will I tell little Bobby"

Or more succinctly "won't somebody please think of the children?"

[MindMatter]

20. This is just brilliant thinking.

The American people, for ythe first time in over a decade, are turning to us to give us an opportunity to show we can do better than what the Neocons have done. And what, pray tell, do we think is the most important thing we can be doing?

1) Find some kind of solution in Iraq and the Middle East in general, which was, after all, the central reason why we won this election?

2) Move to correct the ruinous financial course Bush has put this country on, before the whole damn nation is owned by China and Saudi Arabia?

3) Do something to try to slow down the cataclysmic climate change that is already well under way?

4) Take constructive action to get our runaway pharmaceutical costs under control before that industry makes it impossible for any employer to keep a good job in America?

5) Stop the election fraudsters dead in their tracks by requiring the most basic safeguard that every bank uses in every transaction: a verifiable paper trail?

6) through 20) If you can't complete that list with truly momentous issues, then you have simply not been paying any attention the past 26 years.

How did it happen that there are so many people among us who are willing to let this moment pass, and the only thing they want to do is conduct a childish, spiteful act of revenge that will be utterly unsuccessful and will accomplish nothing except to convince the Republicans that supported us to never do that again.

STOP WASTING OUR TIME, PEOPLE!!!

WE HAVE IMPORTANT WORK TO DO AND WE MUST DO IT RIGHT THIS MINUTE. WE WILL NEVER HAVE ANOTHER CHANCE. DON"T BLOW IT WITH SOME FOOLISH VENDETTA.

[calimary]

29. Sigh... please see post 10 - there's nothing childish or spiteful about this.

I'm hopeful that once Henry Waxman gets down to business (and proudly may I add that he's MY congressman! HUGS!!!) there will be proof enough from everything he investigates and unearths - that IMPEACHMENT will come to be regarded as inevitable. That enough people's stomachs will turn because of the disgraceful revelations that will come by the avalanche, that there simply is nothing else to do and no other way to react. Waxman's already said it's challenging for him to figure out where to start - there's SO much to do.

AGAIN, let me reiterate - there is NOTHING childish or spiteful about seeking to IMPEACH a rogue president, out of control, arrogant, vindictive, finger on the button, stubborn, and now publicly humiliated - with his daddy's boys rushing in like so many Cavalry officers to save his pathetic ass once again.

I'm not hungering for IMPEACHMENT to get revenge. I'm hungering for IMPEACHMENT to get JUSTICE. And to serve notice to any and all would-be dictator/presidents to come - that they push their luck at their peril. Not to mention how badly we, as a nation, NEED to be able to show the world that we've come to our senses, the free ride many have given to bush again and again, ALL undeserved, is OVER, and that we intend to RECTIFY these wrongs, and seek redress. For heaven's sakes, people's LIVES are at stake here. How many already lost? How many more? How many severed limbs, blinded eyes, eviscerated midsections, deafened ears, tormented minds and souls? Is it REALLY okay simply to let this bastard walk away from all this with yet ANOTHER free pass - without having to face at least SOME music for it? Is that REALLY okay with you? It is NOT okay with me. I apologize here because it's not my intention to come down hard on you. I appreciate that there are many other extremely serious priorities and fuck-ups and colossal, global botch-jobs - a HUGE clean-up job, as big as maybe a THOUSAND Katrinas, from the mess this asshole has left behind. Is it REALLY okay to just allow him to walk away from it - AGAIN?

The punishment should fit the crime(s). IMPEACHMENT, in fact, IMPEACHMENT and REMOVAL FROM OFFICE, are appropriate redress for wrongs and crimes THIS hideous. This is the business of truly responsible GROWN-UPS who are (or shortly will be) back in charge, after the arrogant idiot frat-brat ran amok and screwed EVERY pooch in Christendom. It means growing up as a nation, facing what's happened fully, and resolving to rectify the wrongs and punish the wrongdoers, just as sometimes the mature thing is to swallow the cod liver oil or the bitter pills that will effectively treat a serious illness, rather than kid yourself into thinking your 30th smoothie or maybe a nice double scotch will take care of everything. Nothing petty or foolish, childish OR spiteful about that, at all.

[MindMatter]

61. Not a single winning candidate

ran on a platform of retribution through impeachment. And if they had, they would not have won because that is simply not what the public wants. Most Democrats don't even want that.

Considering the not a single politician promised you an impeachment fight, stop your whining.

We have about 6 months before 2008 election season kicks in to take some serious action on the destruction that the neocons have brought us be. Impeachment is not going to happen. All you are going to do is waste our time, make all Democrats look like a bunch of fools, and give Republicans a great argument why they should get back into power in 2 years.

The correct strategy is the one that leadership is pursuing. They are putting forward a clear legislative agenda that, if not codified into law, will certainly educate the public on the true nature of conservatives. Meanwhile there will be plenty of investigations behind the scenes. They will have the effect of ensuring that Bush leaves office a thoroughly disgraced man revviled by historians. And quite possibly pursued by war crimes charges. Unlike Reagan, nobody really gives a shit about Bush. Nobody will come to his defense as this unravels on him.

Besides, who in his right mind would want President Cheney, even for one second?

[Mudoria]

42. The most intelligent post in this entire thread..

Let's just jump on that impeachment platform and see how fast Repubs get voted back into office in 2008. The public didn't vote for impeachment when we were finally voted back in charge of Congress. We got the nod because of concerns about Iraq, corruption, health care and education. Let's waste our time on impeachment (which will NEVER have the votes to pass) and let the American people see that revenge is our parties goal :crazy:

[ClassWarrior]

52. The public voted for accountability when...

...we were finally voted back in charge of Congress. Accountability on Iraq, corruption, health care, education, domestic spying, the separation of powers, the unPATRIOTic Act, and much, much more. How do we ensure accountability if we toss away the consequences? Investigation without enforcement?

No, the elected Dems can't go into this shouting IMPEACH - which is why we, their surrogates, need to shout it even louder.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

21. Visualize it.

Then do something to make it happen.

NGU.

[bobbolink]

24. Yeah, whot happened to John Conyers???!!!

I thought he was one of the very few we could count on....?

I guess Nancy put the squeeze on him... wonder what she has on him, eh?

Goddess, I hate politics! :mad:

[longship]

27. It's not politics. It's the law.

Impeachment is the equivalent of an indictment. Just as you cannot indict without a secure chain of evidence you cannot impeach without the same. That's why the two best examples (one good, one bad) of the process were both preceded by investigations both in Congress and through the Justice department. There were special prosecutors and courts involved to secure the chain of evidence. Congress linked the evidence to their allegations through their own investigations. Then, and only then, did the House act.

It's the only damned way to do it.

Call for impeachment all you want. I'll be there right next to you. But recognize that without a chain of evidence procured in a legal way, no House member will support it, nor should they.

Hell! I'm screaming with you on this. But Conyers cannot advocate short-circuiting the process.

Then, there's the problem that the only successful impeachment process in history (Nixon) was preceded by an overwhelming outcry from the public. We're talking front page, above the fold in most major newspapers in the country. That's when the House acted in early 1974, two months after the Saturday Night Massacre which resulted in some 50,000 telegrams to Congress in one day, most of which called for Nixon to be impeached.

We've got a huge uphill battle here. But we must do it right, or not at all.

[bobbolink]

49. I was going to post a reasoned reply.

Then I saw in another thread where you referred to us a "impeachment screechers"

I've made a decision not to deal with name-callers, so....
I hope you will recognize that we aren't enemies here, and alienating people isn't in the best interest of the party OR the country.

And it certainly isn't non-violent.

[longship]

26. It's everybody's right to call for impeachment.

Unfortunately, except the very Congress critters who actually impeach.

No impeachment can happen in the absense of an investigation and a chain of legally obtained evidence. Congress needs to insist on a special prosecutor to investigate ChimpCo for their crimes. The Senate and the House need to start their own investigations which can work in conjunction with people at Justice and the courts to secure the evidence which can then be cited by articles of impeachment.

First, we investigate. Then, we impeach. It's the only legal way to do this.

[calimary]

31. BTW - more worthy debate here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2964929#2964976

I'm glad we're discussing this, heated or not. It needs to be kicked around a LOT because this is dreadfully serious business. The IMPEACHING of a president must not, and must NEVER, be taken lightly, scoffed at or dismissed as mere petty vendetta. That certainly is not why I'm advocating it. Just because the republi-CONS took it down into the gutter for what truly WAS a petty vendetta (the ONLY way they could bloody Clinton's nose) doesn't mean that's what's being advocated here. To say all we want is unrealistic or childish revenge is a cheap shot. REALLY cheap.

[pat_k]

35. Thanks for the link -- Mary Lyon is speaking for countless Americans. . .

. . .we'll, actually, they aren't really "countless" since we know that http://january6th.org/oct2006-newsweek-poll-impeach.html">at least 51% of us want impeachment to be a priority in the new Congress.

[calimary]

38. I suspect that number will grow as the investigations begin and more

is unearthed that will leave even more Americans absolutely fit to be tied. The truth will start to come out and it will outrage more and more of us. And btw - Henry Waxman's the one who's been like a dog on a pants leg with cheney, only without subpoena power to make anything stick. NOW, that's going to change. He'll have all the subpoena power he could want, and he'll be able to dig up some of the dirt behind the closed doors of dick's deep dark secret energy task force meetings during the very early days of this administration (back when dick was put in charge of the terrorism question and held NOT ONE SINGLE MEETING ABOUT IT until I believe September of 2001). Those are the ones that reportedly include a detailed map of Iraq - all laid out for bush/cheney's big oil buddies to carve up. I believe Kenny-boy was part of that, too. At that point I'd guess the calls for IMPEACHMENT will become rather deafening.

[pat_k]

39. The case we already have is incredibly powerful. . .

. . .Everything we need is already on the public record. http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Senator/10">The articles practically write themselves.

Putting off impeachment "pending investigation" undermines that powerful case. It puts us on the fascist's turf ("If the case is simple why are they having all those hearings? They're just blowing hot air. They don't have anything. If they did, they would have impeached already") -- more on this http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2964929&mesg_id=2965151">here

You are absolutely right about the percentage. It is a FLOOR. The minute the leadership takes up the fight and introduces articles of impeachment via resolution, that 51% would become at least 62% overnight. See the discussion section of http://january6th.org/oct2006-newsweek-poll-impeach.html">this summary of the results.

[calimary]

56. There are others making the case as well:

This, by the esteemed attorney and former congresswoman Elizabeth Holtzman -

Impeaching Bush to Preserve the Constitution
By Elizabeth Holtzman
OpEdNews

Sunday 12 November 2006

This is a transcript of a talk given at the Impeach for Change conference, on November 11, 2006, Veterans Day, at the Constitution Center, in Philadelphia, facing Independence Hall and the Liberty Bell.
I want to talk to you about preserving our constitution. Veterans day is about those who fought and died and gave so much and sacrificed, those who returned healthy and those who didn't.

Why did they do that? To preserve, they were told, our democracy, to preserve our liberty, to preserve the benefits this country provides to so many but not to all. And so, it is an extraordinary subversion of the constitution to send people to die, to be maimed on the basis of a lie. Democracy means you trust people to make their own minds up, But this president knew that if he told the truth, that we wouldn't be in this war.

The framers of the constitution of the constitution knew that someday there was going to be a Richard Nixon who was president of the United States and someday there was going to be a George Bush who was going to be president of the United States, and they gave us the power of impeachment to revoke them.

They put in the impeachment clause because they said that we know that there will be presidents who will commit grave and dangerous offenses that would subvert the constitution. They knew that subverting that constitution was the greatest danger that could befall our country. So all of us here have to be soldiers in that cause.

(snip)

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/111406M.shtml

And this:

Ten Reasons Congress Must Investigate Bush Administration Crimes
By Jeremy Brecher and Brendan Smith
t r u t h o u t | Guest Contributor

Tuesday 14 November 2006

Few elections in history have provided so clear a mandate. As the New York Times put it, Democrats were "largely elected on the promise to act as a strong check on administration." (1) But the first response of the new Congressional leadership has been to proclaim a new era of civility and seek accommodation with the very people who need to be held accountable for war crimes and subversion of the Constitution.

(snip)

Establishing accountability will require a thorough investigation of the actions of the Bush administration and, if they have included crimes or abuses, ensuring that these are properly addressed by Congress and the courts. The purpose of such action is not to play "gotcha" based on hearsay and newspaper clippings. Investigation, exposure, and even prosecution or select committee proceedings, should they become necessary, are primarily means for re-establishing the rule of law. But such investigations may be blocked by the Democratic leadership unless American citizens and progressive Democrats in particular demand them. Here are ten reasons why they should:

(snip)

6. A majority of the American people and an overwhelming proportion of grass-roots Democrats want the president impeached. A mobilization for impeachment was kicked off last weekend with speeches by Elizabeth Holtzman, Cindy Sheehan, and others. Serious investigation of Bush administration malfeasance is probably the only way that Democratic leaders reluctant to pursue impeachment can avoid themselves becoming the target of this constituency. Indeed, impeachment advocates can be encouraged to direct some of their energy to supporting such investigations on the grounds that exposure of high crimes and misdemeanors might be the only way to put impeachment "on the table."

(snip)

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/111406L.shtml

Both are from Truthout, and both are good reads.

[puebloknot]

59. Thanks for this info. Very powerful

Somewhere (I get lost with all these threads), I saw your comment about Bugliosi and the intention to impeach (I'm so tired I can't even think of his name. "Scoliosis" comes to mind. Anyway, you get it!) :)

My daughter and I heard Vincent Bugliosi speak right after the 2000 Selection. I was so hopeful that he would be able to have an impact on our horrid mess, but I never knew he had the intentions you've described.

9/11 sure as hell saved the collective asses of the Repubs. (Never mind that *some people* thank they arranged that fortunate -- for them -- event.) I fear that if we don't get the show on the road and impeach these people and remove them from office, we'll see another tragedy like 9/11.

"We don't have the votes" is a song that I think could be rewritten. If we don't try, we are complicit in the continuing decline of our country.

[greeneggs708]

37. Good Luck

And thank you for the waste of time.


Of course impeachment would be fun. You could do something besides keep your nose up Liebermans ass which is all DU is doing now.

But there are real problems in case you weren't paying attention.

And all this evidence you think you have is nice. But it will all go into super secret session, and then said, well it is ok, because of national security.

Some moron like Ollie North will take the fall, flags will wave, and they will all play god bless america.

Yeah, go for. Who says Dems have no plan. We can be just as stupid as Republican.

[arcane1]

46. any suggestions?

aside from snide remarks?

just wondering

[mtnsnake]

41. Hear hear!

[Silent3]

43. It seems to me that the smart thing to do...

...is to say that impeachment is "off the table", just like what's being said now, then begin all of the investigations that need to begin over mishandling of intelligence, war profiteering, incompetence, violations of Constitutional freedoms, etc. Only after strong evidence is securely in hand come out and say, "Impeachment was not our agenda, but given what we've now discovered, we feel we have no other choice."

I have no idea if this is exactly what our new Congressional Democrats have in mind or not, but I certainly wouldn't rule it out. Screaming "Impeach!" right from the start, before any investigations have even begun, would be a big mistake.

[ClassWarrior]

44. THEY need to say it's off the table, but WE need to say IMPEACH!!

You're correct - our elected Dems can't say it at this point, so that becomes our job as their surrogates.

NGU.

[Silent3]

48. Let's try out your advice...

IMPEACH! IMPEACH THE BASTARD!

Yes, you're right! We do need to be saying that. And besides, it sure feels good too. :)

I have little doubt that we've only seen the tip of the iceberg of Bush's incompetence and corruption. Likely we'll soon uncover plenty of stuff that even the MSM won't be able to ignore, stuff they might even find more exciting to report than the next celebrity divorce.

I'll bet that the White House shredding machines started whirring into action as soon as the election results started pouring in on the evening of November 7, and that they've been going full-tilt since.

[ClassWarrior]

50. No it doesn't feel good. In fact it's damn depressing. But I'm ready.

Because it's the right thing to do nonetheless. Are you?

NGU.

[Silent3]

51. Well, it's depressing to need to have to go through...

...all of the turmoil of an impeachment, but I can't think of anyone else I'd more like to see suffer the indignity of impeachment than George W. Bush. I must apologize if the thought of Bush getting his comeuppance fills me with more than a little glee.

On one hand, impeaching Bush, coming right on the heels of impeachment proceedings for the President right before him, might tend to make our country look like it can't get its shit together. Sadly, that's not an entirely wrong impression.

On the other hand, I think most of the rest of the world realizes that (1) Clinton's impeachment was a ridiculous farce, and (2) Bush is wildly deserving of impeachment. What better way than impeachment to say "I'm sorry!" to the rest of the world for inflicting Bush upon them? Stolen elections or not, it's embarrassing that anywhere near half of the voters in the US ever imagined it would be a good idea to put Bush in the White House, not just once, but twice.

I'm very eager for the chance to send a loud and clear message to the rest of the world which says that we've finally woken up, that we're sorry and that we just don't know what the f*ck we were thinking before.

[cleveramerican]

47. Exactly

" you got to know when to hold'em" the great philosopher Kenny Rogers

[calimary]

60. I'm guessing that's what they're doing. At least I hope to GOD

that's what they're doing.

To let this bastard skate, yet again, after the outrageously gross, near-apocalyptic fuck-ups he's made, is just plain wrong. And yes, to the poster upstream - "what will we tell the children???" Okay then, seriously, what WILL we tell the children, when we've let this schmuck fade, unrepentent and unscathed, into his emeritus years having paid no penalty? That it was okay with us that he lied us into war and cost almost 3,000 American families the lives of precious loved ones, looted our treasury, flouted the law 50-thousand ways from Sunday (from signing statements galore to treaties to the frickin' GENEVA CONVENTIONS), ruined our reputation for truth and the highest goals and morals in the eyes of the rest of the PLANET, and that we just decided to go beyond it and move forward and let bygones be bygones? I'm sorry. I mean, this is a society in which simple dope convictions put you on ice FOR YEARS. Offenses as grave as bush's, and SO DAMNED MANY OF THEM, and not even a moment's worth of true contrition or ownership of responsibility on his part (he who joins his friends farting on and on about their precious "ownership society") - CANNOT be allowed to go unconfronted and shrugged away because I'm somehow supposed to just "get over it."

I'm sincerely sorry, truly, that I'm driven to feeling this way. You're supposed to forgive. I KNOW that. But the sheer magnitude here of the crimes, in nature AND number - holy COW. Awfully hard to agree to just letting him skate. Getting back to the earlier point, what WILL we tell our kids about this when instructing them on accountability, responsible government, truth-telling and morality in policymaking, honorable membership in the community of nations, respect for the limits of power - AND of the law? This guy repeatedly violated ALL of this, and we didn't do anything about it? Or instead, shouldn't we send him AND future presidents clear AND IMPACTFUL instruction that this kind of misbehavior is NOT OKAY OR ALLOWED? I don't want to have to tell MY kids that we took a pass, that it didn't matter enough. What do they learn then? That there ARE people above the law if they're sufficiently wealthy or well-connected. How will we have served them, or ourselves?

Granted, he may very well wind up not being IMPEACHED. But it won't be because I stayed silent about it.

Sorry, also, to come off as such a stubborn, obnoxious, unsympathetic, and at least temporarily unforgiving hard-ass here. But this one really stings. Severely.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

55. Saying one "must" do something one *can't* do is always stupid.

The Democrats don't have the votes to impeach Bush, so he's not going to be impeached. It's as simple as that.

Asking "should we impeach Bush?" is the wrong question; it's "Should we launch impeachment procedings against Bush?", or "Should we launch impeachment procedings that would be doomed to fail against Bush?" if you want to be really accurate.

There is a case to be made that even though they would fail, the Democrats should launch procedings anyhow, to be seen to be doing so, but I think it's a very weak one.

The thing to do is to investigate and expose, not to say "we must do the mathematically impossible".

[ClassWarrior]

62. So you want to let 'em get away with it too?

We should only do the right thing if we're guaranteed to succeed?

By the way, you must be a graduate of Dale Carnegie. Didn't he say the first thing you should do to convince someone of your position is call them "stupid?"

:eyes:

NGU.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

63. No more than someone pushed off a cliff wants to fall.

We don't have the ability to impeach Bush, so if you count "not impeaching him before 2008" as letting him get away with it then he's going to get away with it, and wanting doesn't come in to it.

Starting impeachment procedings *isn't* the right thing to do, because it's guaranteed to fail (not just "not guaranteed to succeed") and would hurt both America and the rest of the world, by bringing the Republicans to power in 2008.

[ClassWarrior]

64. Of course "we don't have the ability to IMPEACH Bush**." Yet.

And we never will until we have thorough investigations of the misAdministration**'s crimes. Once we do, IMPEACHMENT needs to be on the table as an available option. Which means making sure the public accepts the possibility. Pre- or post-2008.

By the way, feeding the poor is "guaranteed to fail," too. Does that mean it's also the wrong thing to do?

NGU.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

65. Feeding the poor isn't all-or-nothing.

If you try and feed all the poor, and fail, you'll probably have fed a lot of poor people. Cost: cost of the food; benefit: lots of fed people. Very possibly worth while.

If you try and impeach Bush, and fail, you've achieved nothing whatsoever. Cost: Republicans regain power in 2008, with attendant consequences for war with Iran, Roe vs Wade, minimum wage, taxes, gay rights, etc. Benefit: nothing whatsoever. Clearly not worthwhile.

By all means investigate - that has limited cost, and is beneficial even if you don't get an impeachment out of it - but if you think the chance of finding sufficient evidence to convince enough Republicans to vote to impeach Bush, given that they still back him knowing what they already do, is non-trivial then I think you're being ludicrously overoptimistic.

[ClassWarrior]

67. Then we're both saying the same thing and calling it different names.

I just want to be sure that we remind the Radical RW of the consequences of crime and justice - loudly and often. "Optimism" has nothing to do with it. It's all about responsibility, accountability, and consequences. Remember, these people are authoritarians. If there's one thing they understand, it's consequences for wrong behavior.

NGU.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

68. I don't want to remind them of the consequences, I hope they *don't* understand them.

Because the consequence for Bush is likely to be "get away with it, retire, and go on to a life of ease on the lecture circuit".

We *can't* hold him accountable; what we can do is try and ensure that his successor is someone better.

[ClassWarrior]

70. Yes, let's let criminals get away with crimes, and expect we'll...

...get someone better next time. :eyes:

NGU.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

73. You appear to have ignored every word I've said.

Once more: We. Do. No. Have. Any. Way. *Not*. To. Let. Bush. Get. Away. With. It.

"Letting" doesn't come in to it.

If you disagree with what I'm saying, that's fair enough, but repeatedly ignoring it like this is frustrating in the extreme.

[Imagevision]

57. I agree, Bush till 2 weeks ago was staying the course with Iraq & Rumsfeld

Bush & Cheney still sticking to they wouldn't change a thing with Iraq invasion? -- including not getting better intel from the get-go???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!

[God Almighty]

66. Mary, if we want to impeach, we'll need new Democratic leadership.

Nancy was unopposed in her primary and no Republican could ever win San Francisco. Just because someone is in the right place at the right time is no reason to pick them to lead us to a 2008 disaster. By 2008, we could be in a war with Iran (something Pelosi has supported in four votes), a war with Hamas (something Nancy also voted to support) or wiped out by World War III. Bush will veto any good legislation, and so no good bills will pass until we impeach.

[calimary]

69. Point well made. I'm hesitant about her too, but I'm hoping she said

"IMPEACHMENT" is off the table so as not to panic the enemy and bring on more horrible behavior and other negative repercussions.

I think our ace in the hole still is Henry Waxman, who will chair the Committee on Government Reform - he's the ranking member now, while still part of the "minority-party" Democrats. He's already said he's going to be investigating all kinds of shit, so much so that he's not sure where to begin. I'm hoping, in fact, I'm COUNTING on it (and as his constituent, I'm gonna be hounding him about this) - that he'll dig up so much genuine shit that it will be impossible NOT to IMPEACH. Once headlines are generated by his committee's efforts and the fruits of its subpoenas and hearings, I think the 51 percent of the public that favors IMPEACHMENT now will expand profoundly. I think if the mandate there is big enough, even Madam Speaker will be forced to capitulate to it, every bit as much as the republi-CON losers wound up having to give more than a few concession speeches (and some of them quite graceful, at that). It CAN happen if we have enough momentum behind us on this. We just proved it a week and one day ago.

I found this in an email from Democrats.com - part of what they refer to as "IMPEACHMENT by Spring: Here's the Plan."

Collect 1 Million Signatures on our Impeachment Petition


In the first 3 days we have collected over 6,000 signatures on our Petition to Impeach Bush and Cheney.

Please sign here
http://www.democrats.com/peoplesemailnetwork/88
and forward the petition to your friends.

Then print copies of our simplified impeachment petition
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/downloads/petition-4.pdf
and collect signatures from friends, co-workers, and neighbors.
When you're finished collecting, keypunch the email addresses into our form to ask the signers to complete the full petition online
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/petition


OF COURSE we can't do squat now. We don't ascend to majority status til January. But we can do some nice groundwork NOW, and start building momentum. If there's an unavoidable groundswell behind it, our friend Nancy will not be able to avoid it.

Also, I suggest, in the meantime, that everyone who's seriously in favor of this call their legislators. If Dems, call in and remind them that YOU, as one of the grassroots activists, worked and helped and volunteered and donated and gave of your time, energy, and efforts, and that as such, YOU are responsible for getting them where they are now: in the winner's circle, with upcoming majorities in BOTH houses of Congress. And you expect your bidding to be done, since you did for them.

If they think you don't care, THEY WON'T, EITHER!!! Remember that, PLEASE. It's VITALLY important! If we all just get complacent and doze off again, thinking the Good Guys won so that is that, we're setting ourselves up for MAJOR heartbreak in two years, and onward. Remember this, too: it's NOT about vengeance. It's about JUSTICE. And at the moment, I can hear the murmurs of almost 28-hundred American souls, crying out to us for JUSTICE, so that their deaths will not have been in vain. To seek and achieve justice from the beasts who wrongfully and willfully and deceitfully and greedily sent them to their deaths in Iraq is worth it, all by itself. Yes. I think it's THAT important.

[earth mom]

71. Visualize Impeachment!

NGU!

[calimary]

72. I am indeed doing just that.

And visualizing Henry Waxman's Government Reform Committee unearthing enough shit to build a rock-solid IMPEACHMENT case against the wannabe dictator.