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[Thomas Servo]

1. I'm sorry Pete, but I gotta tell you

I just saw the update on the Maine caucus this morning and Dean is at 35% to Kerry's 40%. And they restarted the count this morning. And still stuck at 50%. Tell me another story about being accused of voting fraud when there's ample evidence right now. Dean MAY very well have won Maine, and yet you want to deny that fact.

Sen. John F. Kerry 4,843 40%
Howard Dean 4,326 35%
Rep. Dennis J. Kucinich 1,581 13%
Sen. John Edwards 916 7%
Gen. Wesley K. Clark 407 3%
Uncommitted 134 1%
Al Sharpton 23 0%
Other (WI) 2 0%
Rep. Richard A. Gephardt 0 0%
Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman 0 0%
Other 0 0%

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/elections/2004/me/

[pmbryant]

2. That link says 80% precincts reporting, and Kerry has 19 point lead

I'm not sure what your point is. Where is the "ample evidence" of vote fraud?

:shrug:




Maine Democratic Caucuses
Updated 2/9/04 11:47 AM ET
80% Precincts Reporting declared winner
Candidates Votes %

Sen. John F. Kerry 6,842 45%
Howard Dean 3,960 26%
Rep. Dennis J. Kucinich 2,382 16%
Sen. John Edwards 1,187 8%
Gen. Wesley K. Clark 564 4%
Uncommitted 191 1%
Al Sharpton 26 0%
Other (WI) 6 0%
Rep. Richard A. Gephardt 0 0%
Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman 0 0%
Other 0 0%

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/elections/2004/me/

[vision]

4. What happened to the Dean votes?

In the first post Dean's votes were

Howard Dean 4,326 35%

and now it has Den with

Howard Dean 3,960 26%

Did those votes not exist or just suddenly change alligence?

[pmbryant]

10. No idea where those numbers came from

I checked the link a couple minutes after it was posted and the numbers I quoted were the ones present. I do not know where the ones in Mr Servo's post came from.

If the site did report such numbers earlier, it is far more likely to have been a transcription error than voter fraud, unless you can provide a lot more substantial evidence pointing to the latter.

--Peter

[MaineDem]

3. New results:

John Kerry Dem 6,842 45.1% 15
Howard Dean Dem 3,960 26.1% 9
Dennis Kucinich Dem 2,382 15.7% 0
John Edwards Dem 1,187 7.8% 0
Wesley Clark Dem 564 3.7% 0
Uncommitted Dem 191 1.3% 0
Al Sharpton Dem 26 0.2% 0
Other (WI) Dem 6 0.0% 0

519 of 649 precincts reporting

[MaineDem]

8. I have to believe those numbers are bogus

The Kerry total is the same as last night's 50% number.

I gather there was a reporting error or a transcription error somewhere.

I highly doubt an intent to defraud.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. Reason won't work, facts won't matter.

It doesn't matter what you say, or what the facts indicate, because this meme is not based on facts or reason.

[On the Road]

6. What the Heck is Going on Here?

This is the third caucus state I've seen (WA, NM), with wild swings in the reported totals, all affecting Dean more than other candidates. Did the Washington Post really report Dean losing a significant number of votes in ME?

I've never had the opportunity to go to a caucus, and I'm not too familiar with the process. What is there that could account for these reports? It just seems unusual.

And BTW, the accusations in NH were baseless as far I'm concerned. Crying wolf really doesn't help things when a more troubling situation comes up.

[adriennel]

7. Mich, not Maine

yes, there are numerous reports of impropriety in the Dem caucus in Detroit. Kerry won the majority of the state. But if Detroiters were not able to vote due to polling locations being closed at the last minute, this is a serious problem that must be addressed so we don't have another 2000 election (goddess willing)

[bornskeptic]

26. If voters were disenfranchised in Michigan,

of course it should be investigated. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But accusing Kerry of being responsible is asinine. Look at the exit polls from Oklahoma, Missouri, and South Carolina. Sharpton and Kerry consistently do better among blacks than among whites. The other candidates do worse with black voters than with white voters, or at least no better. If African-Americans were systematically disenfranchised in Michigan, the beneficiaries were Edwards and Dean, not Kerry.

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/epolls/SC/index.html

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/epolls/MO/index.html

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/epolls/OK/index.html

[dsc]

27. Where, oh where, in this post

yes, there are numerous reports of impropriety in the Dem caucus in Detroit. Kerry won the majority of the state. But if Detroiters were not able to vote due to polling locations being closed at the last minute, this is a serious problem that must be addressed so we don't have another 2000 election (goddess willing)

end of quote

did the person blame Kerry? Please point out where those words are, I don't see them.

[bornskeptic]

30. I certainly didn't mean to suggest that he did.

I responded to his/her post because I was agreeing that any voting irregularities need to be investigated. But the topic of this thread is "clarification on voter fraud accusations against Kerry", so I would assume that that would be a legitimate subject on which to state my opinion.

[dsc]

31. then you should have stated the last part of your post

in response to someone else. When you respond to a post it is reasonable to think, unless otherwise stated, that the whole post is in response.

[Cuban_Liberal]

9. why isn't this a dupe? n/t

[Name removed]

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[Cuban_Liberal]

20. Then why not correct it in THAT thread.

I don't see this thread as covering anything significant;y 'new' so as to justify a separate thread. :shrug:

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[dsc]

11. I have no idea if there is fraud or not

but this, to be charitable, lose treatment of repsonsibility towards producing accurate counts is very bothersome. They stopped the counting at 50%. That is just plain shocking.

In each state we now have, to be charitable, goofy circumstances. In WA, we have a charge, with names, that incorrect numbers were sent to the state from one caucus Dean won. That needs investigated.

In MI, we have several Detroit voting areas changed at the last minute with no notice given. That needs investigated.

In ME, we have the vote count stopped for overnight, for no apparent reason. That needs investigated.

While I am not crying fraud I am crying ineptitude. There is no excuse for this. None.

[Cuban_Liberal]

12. I'll agree with inept.

If anything, 'inept' is charitable.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

14. Perhaps instead of a grand conspiracy,

the reason the vote count stopped overnight in Maine, is that the vote counters went to sleep?

I know it is an extremely far-fetched theory, and the idea of a massive criminal conspiracy in the Democratic party is much more likely, but, it is a possibility, so I thought I'd throw it out there.

:eyes:

[Cuban_Liberal]

15. It's a ridiculous reason.

If anyone did such a thing in Illinois' everyone and his brother would scream 'vote-stealing'. Maybe election judges in ME need more sleep than the ones in IL, but in IL they stay awake until the votes are ALL counted. :eyes:

[dsc]

16. I don't care why they stopped

This is one day every four years. They can't hire people to stay up for a third shift count. BTW please point out where, in that post, I state, imply, or in any way shape or form would leave an honest reader with the impression you claim to have. If you can't produce it, and you can't, I demand an apology.

[MaineDem]

18. Thanks but it's not worth the effort.

:eyes:

Inept? I doubt it. If anything we are guilty of underestimating attendance. The caucus this year is new for us.

I resent the accusation some have made of us being inept. We want to get it right. One thing Maine does is count its votes and in regular elections most of them are paper votes. So we're quite familiar with late hours of counting.

It's not worth pointing things out to some so I'm going to go mail my caucus reports and move on. Thanks for yout efforts. :)

[dsc]

19. Our state is 10 times the size of yours

and I have never, not ever, heard of an Ohio election having its count stopped for the night. That is slip shod and no amount of earnestness will make me stop thinking it is. This is a once every four year event. You spend the money to hire people to stay until the work is done. If some black or brown place pulled this stunt we would hear cries of fraud from every roof top.

[dsc]

21. kick

I am owed an apology for having words put in my mouth.

[libview]

17. What??? voter fraud??

I thought only Republicans cheated. What is this all about? Is there a link?

[Tinoire]

32. Here's a link to the original long thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=295375

Some information in there.

Welcome to DU. Kind of naive though to think only Repulbicans cheat. 1. Human nature is what it is
2. The DLC has a lot in common with Republicans
3. Honest SNAFUS sometimes happen but if they're not immediately addressed and fairly rectified, they will not be considered honest SNAFUS.

[revcarol]

22. In Washington a certain percentage of the actual delegates was reported.

When that percentage was INCREASED, the Kucinich actual delegates went DOWN in number.

Nothing to do with Kerry as far as I know. But the INTEGRITY OF OUR VOTE must be preserved.

The whole thing is just WEIRD and must be investigated thouroughly RIGHT NOW!!:evilfrown:

[King of New Orleans]

23. Please note

That caucuses are run by the State Parties and the work is mostly done by volunteers.

In the previous example regarding Washington where a blogger named names of someone he thought was "cheating" against Dean, that someone was a college professor whose expertise was in divising rural health care programs. While she may or may not have been privately a Dean supporter (quite frankly she sounds like someone who have at least an affinity for Dean), I'm sure she wasn't part of some evil "establishment" trying to deny Dean the vote. Instead, she's got people attacking her for fraud and putting her name out on the internet.

Those of you running around yelling vote fraud (and quite frankly caucuses are clearly a messier process than simply pulling a lever) need to step back and try to develop a little perspective.

[dsc]

25. Please point out where I said, much less yelled, fraud

and I am the one and only person in this thread who sited the example you just did. Either put up those words or say "I am sorry I put words in your mouth".

More generally, there is no excuse for this. To the extent that state parties decided to be cheap that is a disgrace. Maine has caucuses every four years. I can not be convinced that the funds can't be found to pay the people needed to do an adequate job counting votes. If this were some third world country then maybe this would be justifyable but it isn't. There is no excuse for what happened in Maine and no excuse for what happened in Michigan. None. It is an utter disgrace. At least, we hope, Maine's vote was unaffected by the cheap planning but Michigan's vote was. Frankly, Sharpton is like to have been most effected but who knows. We are a first world country whose primaries are barely meeting third world standards (of being well run not corruption).

[sleipnir]

28. "Stop Crying in your Teacups"

A reminder of Kerry's last response to a voting fraud. Thank you very much.

[tobius]

29. This is

getting ridiculous. Every inept or fraud charge from 2000 forward is aimed at Dem controlled precincts/districts/caucuses etc... We are in danger of serious exit wounds from these shots to the feet.
"I have learned the difference between a cactus and a caucus. On a cactus, the pricks are on the outside."
                               Rep. Morris K. Udall (D-AZ)

[Tinoire]

33. Pete- Thanks for the clarificiation & for sticking up for Michigan Blacks

n/t