Rangel needs to back off of this or he's out of the party

[cobaindrain]

Rep. Rangel Will Seek to Reinstate Draft

By JOHN HEILPRIN
The Associated Press
Sunday, November 19, 2006; 1:31 PM

WASHINGTON -- Americans would have to sign up for a new military draft after turning 18 if the incoming chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee has his way.

Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., said Sunday he sees his idea as a way to deter politicians from launching wars and to bolster U.S. troop levels insufficient to cover potential future action in Iran, North Korea and Iraq.

"There's no question in my mind that this president and this administration would never have invaded Iraq, especially on the flimsy evidence that was presented to the Congress, if indeed we had a draft and members of Congress and the administration thought that their kids from their communities would be placed in harm's way," Rangel said.

Rangel, a veteran of the Korean War who has unsuccessfully sponsored legislation on conscription in the past, said he will propose a measure early next year.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/19/AR2006111900376_pf.html

sure he's right, but with the opportunity he gives the GOP, and the way they'll spin...there is no way "soccer moms" or anybody else in this country votes for us again. Mentioning the Draft in any way is political suicide!

I'm sure he doesn't intend to send kids off to Iraq BUT, Kerry didn't intend for what he said to be misinterpreted as well. It's too risky.

we can't even let this hit the news, and it's going to happen.

[bowens43]

1. I agree. This guys a dangerous ass hole.

iF the draft is re-instated because of this fucking idiot I will NEVER vote for another democrat.

[BTG]

38. I guess you'll be voting Green in '08

[digno dave]

47. asshole, fucking idiot...

you've expressed your personal disdain for the man. Now tell us why you disagree with the policy?

[Ninja Jordan]

2. He means well, but it is foolish politically. (nm)

[Zhade]

40. Sending the message that it's okay to fight this ILLEGAL war is "meaning well"?

I disagree.

[Ninja Jordan]

51. He believes reinstating the draft will result in an end to the Iraq War (nm)

[BrokenBeyondRepair]

74. what if it doesn't? what if it just provides more troops? more war...

[Eurobabe]

3. I understand why he has proposed it, but I am not happy with this

and I do think it is a political hand grenade.

[rocktivity]

4. Here's another thread on the subject

link

It was one thing for him to say that when he knew there was no way it would get out of the House, let alone the Senate. But if Bush calls his bluff on this now that the Dems are in the majority, it could backfire horribly.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Hepburn]

5. His draft bill...

...contains NO provision for exemptions. In other words, the rich boys will go with the poor boys. There is NO chance in hell that this will pass. Rangel is making a point ~~ if the Repubs want a war and there are not enough troops, then they can send their children instead of having military recruiters out seducing other people's children to go and spill blood. The Repub controlled House is still in power ~~ let this come up and see how fast the Pubbies table it just like they did with his last draft bill which had the same terms on exemptions.

JMHO

[rocktivity]

26. The draft bill Rangel proposed PREVIOUSLY had no exemption provisions

but this one does:

He said having a draft would not necessarily mean everyone called to duty would have to serve. Instead, "young people (would) commit themselves to a couple of years in service to this great republic, whether it's our seaports, our airports, in schools, in hospitals," with a promise of educational benefits at the end of service.

Whose kids are going to be more likely to end up working in the hospitals (as if they NEEDED educational benefits), and whose are going to be more likely to end up working out of foxholes? Everybody knows you're bluffing, Charlie, but if the Rethugs call you on it, the Dems are dead in the water.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Kagemusha]

33. So indentured service for two years as an alternative to frontline duty.

Land of the Free.

[Karatist Preacher]

6. I totally agree with what he says...

He knows what he's doing - a draft won't happen anytime soon but some of these talking heads need to let the thought of their fuck-up kids getting drafted sink in...

[Gregorian]

7. My guess is he wants to end the war.

A draft will energize the country against the war.

Maybe I'm wrong.

[speedoo]

11. I think you're right.

The relative apathy about this fucking war is very much associated with the lack of a draft.

The contrast between the anti-Vietnam protests and today is striking. Back in the late 60's, the protests were energized by draft aged guys. Today, too many of those draft aged guys are perfectly happy to let other young men (and women) die in Iraq.

It's fucking sickening.

[William Seger]

15. Conscription to change opinions?

You advocate conscripting kids and sending them off to kill and be killed, just so other people will change their political opinions? I understand the strategy; I just don't agree with the ethics.

"Whoever fights monsters should take great care that in turn he does not become the monster." -- nietzche

[speedoo]

18. Are you intentionally misrepresenting my opinion?

Or maybe you are advocating the status quo and everything that's wrong with it.

As for your Nietzche quote.... don't even TRY to lecture me.

I'm a vet. Are you?

[William Seger]

20. National Guard, '69 to '75

... and yes, I freely admit to joining the National Guard to avoid the draft when I got a low lottery number. But that's precisely why I disagree with the strategy of using kids as pawns in a political game. Sorry you don't understand that, but no, that certainly doesn't mean that I'm "advocating the status quo and everything that's wrong with it."

[speedoo]

24. Then what ARE you advocating?

And please stop implying that I'm advocating using kids as pawns in a political game.

The status quo is completely fucked up. Sorry you don't understand that.

[Dhalgren]

19. We are past worrying about ethics vis a vis this country and

its illegal wars. The bulk of the American citizenry are just not concerned enough about this war/occupation; they haven't had to send their own kids and they haven't had to pay for a goddamned thing. I say start the draft and slap a huge war-tax on every citizen. If they don't care about the war, then let their kids fight it with their own money...

[Zhade]

43. A majority of Americans already don't support the war WITHOUT a draft.

NT!

[pnwmom]

61. Exactly. We just overwhelmingly voted against the Iraq war.

And Congress knows it.

They would be crazy to take anything Rangel says about this seriously.

[pnwmom]

21. We lost 30,000 US lives in Vietnam AFTER we began a draft.

A draft is no solution. All the draft did was enable the war mongers by providing enough cannon fodder. We had more deaths AFTER the draft than we had before it began.

It took YEARS of protests before the war ended, and even then it was probably more because of Watergate than because of any our our street demonstrations.

[Gregorian]

27. Very good point.

I'm totally against a draft. But that is without a well thought out reason. I just...well, see my sig.

The way I see this is, before we won the election, it was a ploy.

And at this point in time, I think he's making a big mistake. The way to end this war, and I think it's partly how we ended Vietnam, is by defunding it. That's one way.

An accurate and honest media is the other, short of a vigilant society. And that last part I don't think we'll ever see again. Maybe in a hundred years.

[NoPasaran]

39. Points of information

The draft was ongoing before the US commitment in Vietnam began.

Formal US participation in the Vietnam War ended with the signing of the Paris Peace Accords in January 1973. While the Watergate breakin had happened in June, 1972, what we remember as the Watergate Scandal, slowly eroding the power of the Nixon Administration, didn't really get underway until the Ervin Committee hearings over the summer of 1973.

[speedoo]

49. Thankyou.

I know you're right because I lived through all that.

It's amazing how people throw "facts" around without really knowing what they are talking about.

[pnwmom]

56. I lived through it too

and it's ridiculous to think that the Nixon administration wasn't distracted by and worried about the issue from the time of the break-ins. I remember reading about the break-ins before his re-election and wondering why the news media wasn't making a bigger deal out of the whole thing. The hearings were the end, not the beginning.

[speedoo]

65. I was referring to the incorrect statements you made re. the draft.

Everyone who lived through it knows, or should know, that the draft was in effect throughout the Vietnam War. It's no coincidence that the proliferation of street demonstrations back then were highly populated with draft age men. Something we see much less of today, because there are no draft age men.

[Dhalgren]

52. The draft was not started during the Vietnam war. It had been in effect since

the Korean War (if not before). The draft was ended by Nixon in 1972. The draw down of troops had begun in '72 and the cease fire was started in 1973. This was all before the revelations of Watergate...

[pnwmom]

59. I should have said

after they began to conscript soldiers for the Vietnam war. At first, they only sent volunteers but they needed draftees when they expanded the war.

[Telly Savalas]

29. The country is already against the war.

[Zhade]

42. Alternatively, it could send the message that DEMS want to kill your kids.

Even though it's the REPUBLICANS' illegal war.

[ButterflyBlood]

64. THE COUNTRY'S ALREADY AGAINST THE WAR

That's why we won.

[indygrl]

8. He's been saying this for some time now

He says the way it is now only the lower end of the income kids sign up. If there is a draft he feels all will have to serve and the politicians won't be as hasty to get us into a war. I don't agree, but I would like to see some of the war-mongers kids in Iraq and see how fast this war comes to an end.

[pnwmom]

22. If the war mongers kids will be subject to the draft, so will MINE.

And I would never forgive the party for that.

If the Democrats touch this, the vast majority of people who voted for them will feel betrayed. This is NOT why they were elected to office.

[Don_1967]

9. Republican in sweep in 2008

If this guy does't shut up this will be the headlines to come

[onenote]

34. do you think repubs are going to vote against reinstating the draft?

[Zhade]

44. Maybe. It'd be a political coup to do so.

A majority of Americans are against the war. Right now, today. This minute.

Repubs could vote against a draft and come out on top in regards to the meme that we both know they will start: "the Dems want to force your kids to fight this war".

The American public will not like that, I'm guessing. Oh, the Repubs are swimming in scandal right now, but kids dead from being drafted trumps all of that.

It's not a wise move, I think.

(And of course it reinforces the lie that it's necessary, or even justified, to fight this illegal war.)

[onenote]

66. but a majority of repubs are supporters of the war

and repubs opposing the draft would be telling their base -- you sacrifice so others don't have to...

[lcordero2]

10. it doesn't pan

Opening the doors to another type of abuse is stupid since politicians always seem to abuse every new power that they create for themselves.

[mike_c]

12. there are much better and more direct ways to end the war....

Rangel wants to create political cover for ending the war against Iraq but I think that is ultimately cowardly. It's based on the idea of CREATING more pain, death, and destruction in order to raise a general outcry against the war. I don't agree with that approach at all. The war against Iraq is an international crime-- it needs to be stopped NOW. Congress should not have to triangulate and equivocate on this issue.

[Zhade]

45. No more additional funding. DONE.

Am I right?

[TankLV]

71. Cut funding? THAT will never happen - the dems are afraid of looking like they don't "support the

troops" which IS what that repukes and whore media WILL spin away on.

The draft ploy is brilliant, on the other hand - it's a poison pill...

[joemurphy]

13. I personally think he's right. But it'll never happen. Relax.

Our pool of voluntary military manpower is too small. Also, an army of professional mercenaries (which is what we really have now) isn't a very good idea for the country. Praetorianism didn't work out too well for Rome. I don't think it's a good long-term plan for us.

A draft will never get off the ground though. There's no political will or pressing need for it right now.

[ret5hd]

14. He's been saying it for a long time, and NO, he's not out of the party...

and there has been plenty of opportunity for the MSM to pick it up.

If you don't get what he's driving at, it's on purpose.

[DemBones DemBones]

16. If everybody in the US knows THEIR kids will be drafted, they'll demand an

end to the war. If we hadn't had a draft during the Viet Nam war, we'd probably still be fighting it.

What we have now is an economic draft -- those who can't find decent jobs and can't afford more education go in the military.

[TankLV]

72. and don't forget the mercenaries that are getting paid HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS per year to "fight"

while our men and women soldiers get SHIT - NO body armour, etc...

[sallyseven]

17. His aim is to bring the war to an end.

What better way than to make sure the upper class repukes have to send their kids off to war. The war would be over in 2 weeks if he got his way.

[rocktivity]

25. You'd be right if his draft really WAS a draft

He said having a draft would not necessarily mean everyone called to duty would have to serve. Instead, "young people (would) commit themselves to a couple of years in service to this great republic, whether it's our seaports, our airports, in schools, in hospitals," with a promise of educational benefits at the end of service.

Rangel's "all military service, no exceptions" rule kept the Rethugs at bay because it WAS an "all military service, no exceptions" rule. What Rangel is proposing now creates a backdoor backdoor draft--the "upper class repuke kids" you mention will end up in the hospitals and seaports, and guess who ends up in the foxholes!

Repeated polls have shown that about seven in 10 Americans oppose reinstatement of the draft and officials say they do not expect to restart conscription.

Psst--Charlie--helloooooooooo...have you already forgotten that giving the voters what they wanted is the reason you're in power in the first place?

:crazy:
rocknation

[Gregorian]

28. Yes. Thanks for the update.

I had not paid attention to the "details" of his resolution.

Although the idea of volunteering for the good of the country is a good one. I would have to read more about it before being able to comment on this.

[oasis]

23. Rangel was re-elected with over 90% of the vote. He's here to stay.

Rangel's proposals will be debated in congress like those of everyone else.

[wyldwolf]

30. Not that my feelings mean a bucket of spit, but...

...it is so stupid for anyone on an internet message board to threaten to kick anyone out of the party.

[kentuck]

31. I think Charlie looks at the "draft" as a works program...

to help get young people off the street and into a structured environment, so they can make some money for education after they serve their country. This is not a bad idea so long as they are not sent to be slaughtered, like the volunteers were...

[sillyparty]

32. Let's Throw All The Dems Out

Damn are we ever brilliant. A week after the election and all we can talk about is how many Dems we can throw out of the party.

Ok, who next week. Hillay. Check.

Next week, Obama. Check.

Biden. Check

We will destroy the Democratic Party. We are on a mission.

[Cascadian]

60. This draft proposal itself will undo the Democratic Party

It won't be so much of the people destroying the Democratic Party but the lawmakers who come up with politically suicidal ideas like this one.


John

[onenote]

35. I'm curious...how do you propose to throw Rangel out of the party

Is there some sort of procedure, like ex-communication? The guy was re-elected with 94% percent of the vote in his district, notwithstanding the fact he's been talking about reinstating the draft for the last several years. Even as chair of the ways and means committee, there is a limit as to what he could do. Arguably, a bill to reinstate the draft would be referred by the speaker to the Armed Forces Committee, not the ways and means committee. It might never see the light of day for even a subcommittee or committee vote.

[salin]

68. this sorta caught my attention...

and made me laugh hilariously. He has even a larger block of base support than Joe, and wouldn't even need Rove's help or pub. money.

[lynne]

36. Why a sequel when his first bill on this was whipped so soundly?

He proposed a reinstatement of the draft in 2004 and it was defeated 402 - 2. Rangel himself voted against his own bill!

The horse is out of the gate as this is all over the MSM. :banghead:

[fuzzyball]

37. Just imagine all the Freepers in their Army Fatigues and all the Duers as

their Drill Sergents in the "strong" US Army. I can't wait.

[Meeker Morgan]

41. As for 'no exemptions' ...

My theory is that the 'pugs were planning on a draft after the election anyway.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

46. There isn't going to be a fucking draft.

Jesus fucking christ. This is a move to get the GOP on record defining a point beyond which they will not go in their support of the war. There isn't going to be a draft any more than there's going to be a flag burning amendment to the constitution. It is a political device, that is all.

[mtnsnake]

67. No shit, Mr Brilliant One. However, it's the spoken word taken at face value

that is all that will matter to the millions of less fortunate souls in this country who were born with brains not as large as yours.

[Beacho]

48. This is about equity in sharing the burden of war

I'm shooting from the hip before reading the rest of the comments. Apologies for the repetition.

I say put the damn bill in front of the chimperor's face and see if he vetoes it. Call their bluff about sending more troops in and make the 101st Keyboard Chairborne Squadron sweat bricks.

Oh, And let Buffy Republican, looking for her Mrs degree sweat it too, since we need to draft the wimmins too.


To be fair and all...

Doncha know?

[k_jerome]

50. what does it mean: he's out of the party? nt.

[wyldwolf]

54. it obviously means the OP believes he/she can summon the power to remove Rangel

[k_jerome]

63. impressive. most impressive. nt.

[election_2004]

53. The power is really in Pelosi's hands here...

As incoming House Speaker, Nancy Pelosi will get to decide which legislation gets priority.

That means she can simply let Rangel's legislation die, after Rangel introduces it.

Do the right thing, Nancy - - send Rangel's "universal service" bill straight into the paper shredder!

[wiley]

55. Calm down already. It's been in the news for years already.

He's really pretty clear about why he's doing it. If anything, the result will be better pay and conditions for those who volunteer to serve, and decent care and help for those who have already served. It also serves to highlight the incredible mess that the Republican war in Iraq has gotten us into. And Republicans are still talking about just adding more troops to achieve "victory", as if Nov.7th didn't happen. If Republicans insist on killing other people's kids let their kids feel the kind of "fear" that they have manipulated the country with for 6 years now.

Too bad he didn't call for an all Republican draft.That would be really funny.

[pnwmom]

62. We don't need a high profile Democrat taking a position like this.

Unless we're not interested in winning in 2008.

He's going to be Chairman of the Ways and Means committee. He can't go around throwing words around as if no one's going to be taking him seriously. Plenty of people will, and it will be used against the whole party down the road.

[Cascadian]

57. Well, guys. I hope another Democrat takes Mr. Rangel on in'08.

Rangel goes through with this, then I hope some Democrat in his district will take him on in 2008. Because with this legislation, he will have set back the Democratic Party back a few years.

Just when the Democrats are getting their mojo back, now we have to unravel everything! GOD! This is frustrating!




John

[TankLV]

73. Sorry - you couldn't be more wrong - I'm all for this one...

[sampsonblk]

58. The Jets suck. Rangel has a good point

nt

[Raiden]

69. I agree...We don't need this now!

I understand his point, but I DO NOT want the public to associate the Democratic Party with the draft. We ran in 2004 and 2006 saying that if you didn't want a draft, vote Dem. We cannot break that promise we made; bait and switch is very Republican. I understand that Charlie Rangel has wanted this legislation to be debated since the War began, I don't care. I'm not fighting in this goddamn war and I don't want ANYONE else to be forced into service either. If we allow this debate to continue, with us on the pro-draft side, say hello to a true permanent Republican majority.

The public is already on our side, let's not change that 2 weeks after we won a major and decisive election. If you really want to see how quickly a party can lose public support, go on and support the draft. I don't want to be in the position of supporting this bullshit! We have the Congress now, so we do not have to worry about going to war with Iran or N. Korea any time soon, and we'll be getting out of Iraq within the next year. I understand Rangel's point, but I don't think that's how the MSM will interpret it... There is NO WAY that we are going to get a draft implemented which will put everyone at an equal opportunity to get called up. Supporting such a measure will only piss the public off at us. NOT SMART POLITICS!!!

[TankLV]

70. Chill out - it's BRILLIANT political strategy.

It's a "poison pill" bill.

It would force EVERYONE who is in favor of continuing the ILLEGAL WAR of CHOICE based on LIES to either put up or shut up.

The chickenhawks will NEVER allow themselves or any of their little peeps ever be in the line of being sent to fight THEIR wars, so the end result will be to END THE WAR NOW!

I love Charley Rangle!

I don't agree with your screams at all!