To Rangel re Military Draft: YOU WILL NOT GET MY CHILD

[RestoreGore]

Asked on CBS' "Face the Nation" if he was still serious about the proposal for a universal draft he raised a couple of years ago, he said, "You bet your life. Underscore serious."

"If we're going to challenge Iran and challenge North Korea and then, as some people have asked, to send more troops to Iraq, we can't do that without a draft," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061119/pl_nm/usa_politics_draft_dc


NO WAY. YOU WILL NOT GET MY CHILD. The Democrats better back off of this right now. Stop playing politics with our children's lives!

[hippiechick]

1. "He" who ?

:shrug:

[RestoreGore]

4. Charles Rangel

And if there is one way Democrats will really lose me, it will be to even entertain this seriously.

[last1standing]

2. If you don't want your child to go to war then don't vote for chickenhawks.

That's the real point of Rangel's argument. Right now, we have a coven of leaders who have never been in a war, and who's children "have better things to do", advocating pre-emptive attacks on other countries. If everyone, rich or poor, has the same chance of having their children drafted most are going to be less likely to cheerlead us into another Iraq.

Can you think of a better way to stop this senseless killing?


Edited to correct Rangel's name.

[PassingFair]

5. Half of our dems voted to authorize

the attack on Iraq.

I used to be FOR mandatory service.

I have two daughters.

After 2003, I no longer support mandatory service. It
is TOO easy for our Congress to be intimidated into
allowing pre-emptive attacks on other countries.

I didn't vote for chickenhawks, they just VOTED that way.

[last1standing]

40. Democrats can be chickenhawks just as easily as repubs.

That's why a law like this may help.

[RestoreGore]

11. yes, I can think of a better way...

Impeach the bastards that started this illegal war in the first place.

[RestoreGore]

16. Or how about this?

Cut the damned defense budget in half. Wars can only thrive when the machine is being fed $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[last1standing]

42. If you can name ten senators and 50 congresspersons willing to do that...

Then I'm all for it. Unless you can I think we need to be just a bit more realistic. I can suggest that we all hold hands and sing "Give Peace a Chance" till the war ends, but it wouldn't be likely to help.

[IndyOp]

18. Impeachment will take too long. Even Levin & Biden are stupidly talking

about beginning withdrawal in about 6 months -- then withdrawal will take another 6+ months. Idiotic. Now. The Iraqis want us out now.

So long as Cheney and his ilk are stupidly, stupidly talking about bombing Iran and mumbling about Syria we need the nation to WAKE UP. Maybe Rangel's talk about a draft will wake people up. I don't believe it will pass, but only because the nation is full of war-mongering, self-absorbed, cowards. If they were war-mongering and had integrity there would be a draft. If they were pacifists there would be no need.

And you might want to help your children develop photo albums demonstrating their long-held "conscientious objector" beliefs -- writings, pictures of them at protests...

[last1standing]

44. So what's the smart plan?

Since you're criticizing this "stupid" plan to begin withdrawing in a timely, organized manner, I'm sure you can provide details on a way to get out immediately without suffering more losses and causing a complete collapse of the Iraqi infrastructure.

I'm dying to hear about this plan, as are 150,000 US troops and 22 million Iraqis.

[IndyOp]

45. Announce *now* that we are pulling out - and withdraw in a timely,

organized manner. My strong criticism of Levin & Biden is "wait 6 months and then we will announce our withdrawal." Wait 6 months. Then wait another 6 months. Then wait another 6 months. To the Iraqis, I have to believe that justice delayed is justice denied.

An announcement that we are withdrawing and demonstrating that we are taking the steps to do so in as responsible a manner as possible will cause a drop in violence.

We will not get out without more losses -- no matter what we do.

The Iraqi infrastructure has already collapsed, numerous times -> during the bombing of the Gulf War; during the aftermath of the Gulf War (in which GHWB told the Iraqis to "rise up against Hussein and we will support you!" -- the Iraqis rose up, the US did not go in and Hussein mowed them down using Blackhawk Helicopters); during the decade of economic sanctions that killed over 500,000 of the most vulnerable Iraqis; during the Iraq War and Occupation.

Real Shock & Awe: After 15 Years War, Sanctions 1,000,000 Iraqis Dead

The Iraqis want us gone NOW -- the last survey I saw indicated over 80% want us gone now. Not next week. Now.

The League of Arab Nations has repeatedly offered to send in troops and a variety of support staff to help the Iraqis rebuild their country.

It is the UTMOST HUBRIS for US to debate whether or not we should leave Iraq.

ASK THE IRAQIS and DO WHAT THEY TELL US TO DO. If we did that, we'd be out in a few months from right now.

The US invasion of Iraq was a War Crime. War criminals don't get to decide what happens next.

[last1standing]

63. It's not a debate about WHETHER we should leave Iraq, but how quickly.

I want out as soon as humanely possible. That means changing our focus there to demand the Iraqi government take over all functions of self protection within 6 months. Using this as a hard deadline forces them to step up in a way bush's* open ended "plan" never would. After 6 months we begin a phased withdrawal that allows for continuation of services and protection without too many lapses. Whether we need the initial 6 month "warning" period is debatable, but knowing Carl Levin, I would be willing to trust his judgment in the absence of contradictory evidence. He's a Damned good human being - check his record.

After we pull out I strongly support making restitution payments to the Iraqi people and issuing a formal apology for the devastation we've caused. We can't just leave and say "oops, hope you can handle things on your own, now". That in itself would be a war crime.

[last1standing]

41. How does this stop the next chickenhawk?

In twenty years, or less, we'll end up with another bush* who'll lie about impending doom and get your grandchildren to die for someone else's profit. Let's think about more than today here.

[Telly Savalas]

20. I have an idea.

Instead of passing a law to implement a draft to send more kids off to die, Congress could pass a law to end the war.

[RestoreGore]

25. Good idea... Or how about...

If you vote for war YOU go fight in it. Think that would cut down on warmongers in Congress? We wouldn't have a war if they didn't vote for it. I think that is only the noble thing to do.

[last1standing]

43. And they're working on that now, but it won't stop the next one, will it?

What's more likely is that we'll get our soldiers back from Iraq just in time for bush* to start another war with Iran. We need something that makes these chickenhawk politicians think twice about sending our troops into battle, and it has to be something that can possibly happen. I don't like the idea of a draft but I despise the idea of kids having to choose between poverty here or death overseas. At least the draft would level the playing field a bit.

[Kagemusha]

36. Uh, what if we vote for Rangel and the children still go to war?

Where are we then?

[last1standing]

39. Wars will happen. Sometimes they're necessary.

What we need to do is set up laws that make sure the that wealthy and powerful suffer the same consequences as the poor and disenfranchized. We can sit here and make silly arguments like cutting the defence budget in half or passing laws that force only those who vote for war to fight, but in the end we need a realistic solution that will at least cause some of these chickenhawks to think twice before starting needless wars in future.

If someone can come up with a better solution than reinstating the draft, I'm all ears, but we should keep at least one foot on the ground when proposing ideas.

[Kagemusha]

46. Uh, my point is, at this point, we'd be aiding the real hawks.

I mean, the ones who would be happy to see their own children die for national greatness if that's what it takes. Maybe the chickenhawks would pale but, if the real hawks are the ones making the decision, we'll be aiding them by expanding the military ranks to make wars more viable, not less. We'll be encouraging more bad decisions, not less. So where's the advantage?

[RestoreGore]

59. Cutting the defense budget is silly?

Oh, so you like seeing innocent people die? A draft will do nothing but prolong the war because they will have fresh cannon fodder. You think they care about anyone's kids regardless of politics? And I tell you right now, if that EVER happens, I will march on Washington DC and my child WILL NOT GO. You got that?

[last1standing]

62. Seriously thinking the US would cut its defense budget in half is silly.

If you had bothered to read what I had actually written, instead of asking an asinine question like "so you like seeing innocent people die?", you would have noticed that I'm talking about what is feasible, not what I would like to see. I was also saying that sometimes war in necessary, such as WWII, and we need soldiers to fight whether they want to or not.

I'm sorry I didn't realize that your child is so much more precious than the fate of the entire nation and all the other children in it, but I won't make that mistake again. Since you plan to march on Washington DC should the draft be reinstated, I'm certain our lawmakers will reconsider their stances and do exactly what you tell them. :sarcasm:

Myself, I don't plan to let some overprotective parent who can't let her little boy go out into the real world bully me out of having an opinion. You got that?

[pnwmom]

52. We just voted to give Democrats control of the House and the Senate.

It wasn't a mandate to start a draft.
It was a mandate to get out of Iraq.

And they better listen. This is a very bad beginning, IMO.

[IndyOp]

3. Rangel wants the entire US to react exactly the way you did...

Why should only the poor kids (like his kids in Harlem) with no other options be the ones bleeding and dying?

If EVERYONE were in danger of having to go to war -- the people would STAND UP and demand an end to war.

Tough. A draft might be the right thing to do.

:(

[RestoreGore]

6. The rich have loopholes like BUSH DID

And would continue to regardless of any bill. Don't spout that garbage to me. And over SIXTY PERCENT of this country already is against this war. Isn't that supposedly how the Democrats won? It is time TO END THIS %^&^%$ WAR, not prolong it. Again, NO WAY.

[KeepItReal]

23. The Draft has been updated. There ain't loopholes like Bush & Co. got any more

"If a draft were held today, it would be dramatically different from the one held during the Vietnam War. A series of reforms during the latter part of the Vietnam conflict changed the way the draft operated to make it more fair and equitable. If a draft were held today, there would be fewer reasons to excuse a man from service.

Before Congress made improvements to the draft in 1971, a man could qualify for a student deferment if he could show he was a full-time student making satisfactory progress toward a degree.

Under the current draft law, a college student can have his induction postponed only until the end of the current semester. A senior can be postponed until the end of the academic year."

http://www.sss.gov/viet.htm

http://www.sss.gov/classif.htm


There *WOULD* be a dramatic increase in the number of clergy, though. Seem like they are exempted.

[RestoreGore]

26. Either way...

I'm against it. There are other ways to end this war, and the connected will ALWAYS find a loophole.

[musette_sf]

8. agreed

I also oppose the concept of a volunteer army. All young Americans should be expected to do some kind of national service. If you're a CO, then there will be many opportunities to do something other than be in the Armed Forces.

If the American people want a strong military, then they should be willing to participate. If all are subject to participation of some sort, then the American people will be much less likely to support illegal wars.

I'm sick and tired of this military system that exploits the poor and working-class, and encourages the participation of society's malcontents who WANT to kill, maim and destroy for entertainment purposes.

[Tansy_Gold]

32. Yes, and when there are too many COs and not enough

"soldiers," there won't be anyone to fight the war!

of course, the other part of Rangel's solution requires that there be viable options for the folks who see "voluntary" enlistment in the military as their only way out of poverty, lack of education, lack of opportunity.

politics is always personal, and it's always the economy, stupid.



Tansy Gold

[wryter2000]

10. Bingo

I don't know why so many DUers are missing this.

[RestoreGore]

12. Then be sure to sign your children up tomorrow

My child will not be used as cannon fodder for any illegal war. PERIOD.

[wryter2000]

19. No one's children are going to sign up n/t

n/t

[Ninja Jordan]

47. Bye bye Democratic majority (nm)

[pnwmom]

53. The people are ALREADY standing up and demanding an end to the war.

What do you think just happened in the last election? Iraq was far and away the most important issue.

If you want the voters to feel BETRAYED, then go ahead and support Rangel. But it will destroy the Democratic party to be associated with this. They have a mandate to get us out of Iraq, not to start a draft.

[pnwmom]

54. The people are ALREADY standing up and demanding an end to the war.

What do you think just happened in the last election? Iraq was far and away the most important issue.

If you want the voters to feel BETRAYED, then go ahead and support Rangel. But it will destroy the Democratic party to be associated with this. They have a mandate to get us out of Iraq, not to start a draft.

[bahrbearian]

7. What would the Neocons do if their children had to fight and serve,

their country, and having to do their Patriotic duty. Can't use the excuse "I had other priorities"

[RestoreGore]

9. NO ONE's Child Should Have to Die In A War

Again, they all need to stop playing politics with our children's lives. And if the Democrats think they will pass this and use it as an excuse to say they held Bush accountable, they are mistaken. I don't even wish for his daughters to serve. This war is HELL ON WHEELS and it needs to END. Again, if Democrats even entertain this seriously and actually pass a bill requiting a mandatory draft, they will lose my support.

[bahrbearian]

15. OK , Stay the course,, continue with Pre-emptive War,

cause it's just the poor people who pay the price.

[RestoreGore]

17. Tell that to the DRAFTED who died in Vietnam,

NO MORE VIETNAMS.

[bahrbearian]

21. I was drafted in 1971, thank you.

[RestoreGore]

27. So was my friend's brother...

He was eighteen and didn't make it back home. I NEVER wish to see that here in this country again. And glad to see you made it back.

[CTLawGuy]

51. they won't...

its called corruption.

Don't think a "loophole free" draft is really so. If someone wants something bad enough, they'll get it.

The draft is a terrible idea and it should be made unconstitutional.

In Vietnam, it took 10 years, at least after the implementation of the draft to finally end the war. So it wouldn't make any practical difference.

[esterDU]

13. war-tax instead

I get why he is doing it, and I am sure he knows it will never pass - but perhaps a better and more politically acceptable approach maybe to institute a "war-tax"...where everyone in the country gets an actual bill ever month or so with their portion of the cost...if people want a war, let 'em pay for it NOW - not some future generation...and the richer you are, the more you should pay. That would surely have some of the same effect of a draft, without the potentially nasty political problems that will result from a draft.

[Mythsaje]

14. The draft is political suicide...

Regardless of the rationale behind it.

It's a form of institutionalized short-term slavery and against everything I believe in.

I've fought with my wife and my best friend on this issue several times and I will NEVER change my mind.

It's one thing to voluntarily give up some of your civil liberties, it's another thing to have it forced on you. That's not America, that's Dumbfuckistan.

If someone tries to send MY kids off to war, they'd better climb in a spider hole and STAY there.

[rollin74]

22. So the Democrats are...

now going to be the party supporting involuntary military service? great

you can't be against the war but support drafting people into it. It makes no sense.

[KeepItReal]

24. Makes perfect sense.

Look at all these perfectly able-bodied, 20, 30 and 40-something males who are all gung-ho, pro-Iraq-war types:

I've seen people ask them, why don't *they* sign up to go fight in Iraq, they turn tail and spout off about how they have more important stuff to do here at home... blah blah blah.

Those people have ZERO connection to the situation in Iraq. If you make it a very real possibility (by means of a draft) that their punk asses will have to grab an M-16 and end up patrolling Basra, I think their lassiez faire attitude would change and bring about a *MUCH* quicker pullout from Iraq.

[sillyparty]

28. Go Rangel

Rangel is brilliant. You want to end this sick war. Put in a draft. And I mean everyone.

So sorry if you don't want your son's or daughter's sent. I'd send mine to Canada.

But I don't think Iraq asked for their families to be killed by us either.

America has to learn a lesson. And if this does it. It will be worth it.

DRAFT EVERYONE OF AGE TOMORROW.

[RestoreGore]

29. And see riots in the streets n/t

[sillyparty]

33. We Should Have Rioted in 2000

We should have rioted in the streets in 2000 when the vote was stolen/

We didn't, so we deserve what we get.

Yes, I want riots in the street.

We brought it to Iraq. Let's see how it feels.

[OneBlueSky]

30. NOT a good idea . . . if the Democrats propose a draft, and it's enacted . . .

then the Democrats will be blamed by all those middle class parents whose kids will suddenly be vacationing in sunny Iraq . . . or Afghanistan . . . or Iran . . . many of whom won't be returning, or will be returning severely injured . . .

waking up the American public is a noble ambition, but the American public will blame the party that makes it happen . . . and if the Democrats make a draft happen -- particulary after campaigning strenuously against the war -- the Democrats will be blamed . . . and that will NOT bode well for 2008 . . .

a better strategy would be to let BushCo take the draft initiative . . . which they will have to do, particularly if we attack Iran . . . then the blame will be squarely on their shoulders, precisely where it belongs . . .

[sillyparty]

34. So no draft for political reasons

Great idea, we can't have a draft, because Dems won't be elected.

Try and take a moment to realize how insane that is.

And BTW. Republicans will draft your son's and daughter's for the next war.

Or are you really naive.

[OneBlueSky]

38. hope I'm not naive . . . if the Republicans do institute a draft, then . . .

they'll be blamed . . .

and yes, I do take politics into account, because I do NOT want the Republicans to win the presidency or either house of Congress in 2008 . . . if that's insane, then go ahead and commit me . . .

[eyesroll]

31. Rangel offers this every term, knowing it won't pass.

It does, however, bring attention to the way wars are handled now -- with rich congressmen sending poor kids (strangers) off.

Settle down. This comes up every two years, and we get the same reaction on DU -- and the same reaction from Republicans and Democrats in Congress. Nobody votes for it.

[RestoreGore]

35. Then he should drop it n/t

[Kagemusha]

37. Rangel wasn't a committee chairman before!

Does the guy not realize that come January he's going to have actual power and this proposal is going to be taken seriously because he has the power to make it be taken seriously? And that the media has every incentive to play this up?

We can't rely on Hastert or Tom DeLay to stop this from passing the House anymore.

[election_2004]

48. Everyone here who supports a universal military draft.....

....raise your hands.

Now out of those of you raising your hands, how many of you would be willing to go off and fight in a hypothetical war yourselves?

Hey, where'd all the hands go....????

[hsher]

49. Guys, I respect Rangel's attempt to stop the war like this, but...

This is like Democrats falling on Bush's grenade. *We* will be blamed for this if something goes terribly wrong. The dingbats of the nation will fail to remember who started this wretched war and only remember us as the party who sent children to die. It's tough love, but it's too tough. Stop the war with votes in the Senate and House. Not this.

But then again:

I was hoping to help start, and see, a second Sixties in this country in my lifetime. If Rangel's Angle makes it through, I just may see one.

[Mr_Spock]

50. Reactionaries on DU tonight are making me laugh

How can anyone take us seriously if we are so reactionary and cannot see the wisdom in this SECOND time that he has proposed this.

This is too funny.

[KingFlorez]

55. It is not a serious bill, it won't pass

[RestoreGore]

57. Then they need to stop pulling our chains for political reasons

I don't appreciate it.

[Kelly Rupert]

58. Welcome to politics.

[Cascadian]

56. Get your child to learn Spanish and get him a one-way ticket to Santiago.

I will not blame any parent for protecting their kids from this. Do what you have to do if that day comes.


John

[sillyparty]

60. So It Is Ok

So it ok to let others die. Just not a Democrat. Got it.

And BTW. The Democrats are not playing politics. You are.

[Jai4WKC08]

61. By the time your "child" is old enough to be drafted

You really have no say in whether he (or she) goes into the military or not.

I have a 20 year old son and a 15 year old daughter. I can advise them, and with the daugher I can still make a few demands. But basically they are both old enough to tell me to shove it.

Besides all that, your quote from Rangel is 100% correct. It is not physically possible for us to wage war against North Korea or Iran without a draft, as many people (and not just right-wingers) seem to think we may have to do. Pretty soon it won't be possible to continue in Iraq without a draft, and it is not now possible to send more troops without one. If any nation becomes a new threat, or if real terrorists succeed in taking over some country (as is possible again in Afghanistan, and could be in Pakistan for example), we will not be able to act militarily without a draft.

People NEED to hear that. They NEED to understand the cost of continued military adventurism.