Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Our Last, Best Hope in Iraq is Slipping Away...

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU
 
Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 01:38 PM
Original message
Our Last, Best Hope in Iraq is Slipping Away...
Edited on Wed Nov-22-06 02:15 PM by Vyan

So far over 300,000 Iraqi Troops have been trained on our watch, yet the death tolls in Iraq last month reach it's highest rate yet with over 3,700 Civilians killed. We've committed well over $200 Billion to this grand enterprise, yet the results continue to worsen.

The dilemna that faces us now, is that we can't. just. walk. away. We have to leave an Iraq that is capable of defending itself. It's not just about ramping up or ramping down our own troops - it should be about Ramping Up the Iraqi troops. Getting them on the front line. Rotating our own guys back into the rear areas.

We need one thing - an effective Force Transition Plan.

It's not withdrawal or redeployment, it's replacement.

Unfortunately Bush and the Gang That Can't Shoot Straight (except for Cheney who shoots Lawyers just fine) - seemed to have mucked another one up.

The U.S. military's effort to train Iraqi forces has been rife with problems, from officers being sent in with poor preparation to a lack of basic necessities such as interpreters and office materials, according to internal Army documents.

The shortcomings have plagued a program that is central to the U.S. strategy in Iraq and is growing in importance. A Pentagon effort to rethink policies in Iraq is likely to suggest placing less emphasis on combat and more on training and advising, sources say.

More emphasis on training - ya think? After three years they're just figuring this one out?

John McCain has been making tons of noise about increasing our troop levels by 20 or 40,000 - when what we really need is 400,000. Charlie Rangel - in a move eriely reminicent of a West Wing Plot Line - has been calling for a New Draft.

What I've been screaming for months has been - what about 200,000+ Iraqi Troops we've already trained?

Apparently I've finally got my answer and it's not pleasant.

In dozens of official interviews compiled by the Army for its oral history archives, officers who had been involved in training and advising Iraqis bluntly criticized almost every aspect of the effort. Some officers thought that team members were often selected poorly. Others fretted that the soldiers who prepared them had never served in Iraq and lacked understanding of the tasks of training and advising. Many said they felt insufficiently supported by the Army while in Iraq, with intermittent shipments of supplies and interpreters who often did not seem to understand English.

The Iraqi officers interviewed by an Army team also had complaints; the top one was that they were being advised by officers far junior to them who had never seen combat.

Some of the American officers even faulted their own lack of understanding of the task. "If I had to do it again, I know I'd do it completely different," reported Maj. Mike Sullivan, who advised an Iraqi army battalion in 2004. "I went there with the wrong attitude and I thought I understood Iraq and the history because I had seen PowerPoint slides, but I really didn't."

Powerpoint slides? Oh. My. God.

What the hell is wrong with making Training the last leg of each soldiers regular combat rotation? We can train our own guys, but we can't get this done for the Iraqis? This is the master cluster-fuck right here.

There is the allegations that the loyalties of the Iraqis we train have been more with their own religious sect than to the national government. That some of the Shia militia and death squad members who've been causing much of the violence were actually trained by us.

Many worried that the Iraqi units being advised contained insurgents. An Iraqi National Guard battalion "was infiltrated by the enemy," said Maj. Michael Monti, a Marine who was an adviser in the Upper Euphrates Valley in 2004 and 2005.

Some advisers reported being personally targeted by infiltrators. "We had insurgents that we detected and arrested in the battalion that were planning an operation against me and my team," Allen said.

But Iraqi officers may have had even more to fear, because their families were also vulnerable. "I went through seven battalion commanders in eight weeks," Allen noted. Dixon reported that in Samarra both his battalion commander and intelligence officer deserted just before a major operation.

At this point in time the Iraqi people overwhelmingly wish us to leave.

“Seven out of ten Iraqis overall–including both the Shia majority (74%) and the Sunni minority (91%)–say they want the United States to leave within a year.” Note: less than 10% of Iraqis nationwide support a U.S. withdrawal only as “the security situation improves,” the current policy of the Bush administration.

Similarly 61% of Iraqis believe the violence will decrease once our forces have departed, and 53% believe our setting a timetable would strengthen their Government. On 23% disagree.

It seems clear that our attempts quell the violence in Bahgdad by beefing-up the American presence only managed to accomplish the reverse.

Perhaps we really do need to pull some of our Combat guys off the front line and have them focus on one thing and one thing only - Training their Iraqi Replacements, and training them Well.

According to everything we've heard for months - there are only about 1000 Al Qeada Fighters in Iraq.

At a certain point, the Iraqis are going to have to take care of Al Qaeda and themselves. We should have a Laser-Like focus on getting them to that point - step by step.

We only lose - if we continue to Fuck That Process Up, exact as BushGov has done so far.

Vyan


Crossposted from Truth 2 Power
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 02:00 PM
Response to Original message
1. And who is 'Iraq' defending itself against? And who is 'Iraq'? The
puppet government that the USA worked so hard to get elected?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vyan Donating Member (990 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Heh.. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hvn_nbr_2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. Last best hope is Ngo Dinh Diem.
Well, might as well be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Two important points
that prevented me from reading more than about 1/4 of your post.

1. We haven't trained that many Iraqis. Like everything else, there's been money spent and not much to show for it. OR, if we have trained them, they haven't stayed trained.

2. Many trained Iraqis in the police etc. are actually working against us. They're double agents so to speak.

I think your ideas are probably great -- they just don't apply to this problem.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-22-06 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
5. Why would the "trained" Iraqi army defend Iraq when we are doing the
dirty work for them? I think it is time to tell them
to swim or sink. A firm date of phased withdrawal will
probably do the trick. All we need is 25,000 troops on
the Syria-Iraq border & 25,000 troops on the Iran-Iraq
border to prevent foreign takeover & mischief. Those 50,000
troops can remain for upto 5 years and then get out. If the
Iraqi's can't cut it by then, they never will.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. Peace is the real GOAL but we are teaching them WAR
It has to have a 2 front approach...Peace through Innovative and creative ideas and concepts...things the Pubic have no clue with...they being dull and boring.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
7. As long as the US is occupying Iraq...
...Iraqi securtiy forces will be viewed as puppets of the occupiers.

Let's leave Iraq.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
8. I think you are pretty much stating the facts ....
Edited on Thu Nov-23-06 10:24 AM by Trajan
I was completely against this lamebrained war, but I understand that EVERY state needs a defensive military capability ....

But this is IRAQ ... Ancient Mesopotamia .... SO many competing groups and sects with contentious agendas ....

This was one of the primary objections presented by OUR side prior to starting this stupid war : Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, and the rest of the PNAC filth that has infiltrated the GOP ranks are the LAST people on earth to design a stategy that could overcome the centuries of animus that has developed in that region between the competing groups ....

They were warned before going in, and they chose their own hallucinatory assumptions about 'building democracy' over rational policy to develop their 'plan' .... what a bunch of feckless losers ....

As it is truly unfortunate George W. Bush started this war, and it is just as unfortunate that Rumsfeld and Cheney planned it, as it is unfortunate that the Iraqis themselves cant seem to get a grip on restoring order in their own land ....

But as much as I would like to see this ordeal have a perfect outcome, we have to ask if a positive outcome is possible by injecting MORE military power into the region .... OR if the best option is to ramp down and get the fuck out ASAP, and let the Iraqi people pick up the pieces that Prince George has strewn in their streets, towns and cities ....

George has REALLY fucked this thing up ... How long must WE pay in blood and sadness for his monumental blunder ? ....

It is obvious : the purge of military brass who demanded a 'go big' strategy set the table from the start .... Rumsfeld will go down in history as one stupid and arrogant general ....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
9. When someone is raping a woman, you don't tell him to stick around
until the victim "gets over it," you stop the rape and you put the rapist behind bars.

America has been raping Iraq for 12 years, since the end of the Gulf War. It is time for this crime against humanity to end, and to end swiftly.

America is NOT a force for good in the world!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
10. There is no winning an unprovoked illegal invasion. It won't happen
in a million years with a million troops. We lost the moment we invaded.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-23-06 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
11. The number of "trained" Iraqi troops is in big dispute
The Bush Admin wants to spin it as high as 200k but nobody else will touch that figure. Not even any of the generals or higher level troops who are ostensibly doing the training. The last reliable figure I heard was 25k, early this year.

And of those that are "trained", most of them run away from conflicts. Infiltrators are a perpetual problem compounded by poor equipment.

I would further stipulate that if we haven't been able to train an effective fighting force of any real size in more than 3 years already (and we have been working at it that long - ever since Baghdad "fell" <cough>), then I can't see how throwing more resources into this will ever work.

The Iraqis must want it. They must do it themselves. For this particular problem - training the Iraqis so they can stand up, so we can stand down - US troops are only putting a band-aid on an arterial wound. Clearly it's not working.

Beyond that, this will be the rationale for sending in more troops (they will be "trainers" :puke: ) thereby deepening the cycle of hatred and resentment by the Iraqis and ensuring we stay there forever (cause the Iraqis are never going to be trained.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion: Presidential (Through Nov 2009) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC