Line up, Democrats. Let's see who is next.

[madfloridian]

We did it here in 2003. We can sure do it again. We are actually helping the media destroy a possible 08 candidate. We did that here in 03 as well. It was a battlefield.

I am noticing who is moving onto the scene the last couple of days as the media sticks the long knives into John Kerry with the help of many at DU. I don't see much of it at other Dem forums, thank goodness.

I am paying close attention. I think we all should.

I supported Kerry in 04 gladly after Dean dropped out because he is a good man who loves his country. I would do it again, gladly.

Keep your eyes open, watch the political scene. Think about it.

[geek tragedy]

1. Kerry is a good man but a bad Presidential candidate.

Sorry, but we have about ten better options out there, and it's silly to pretend otherwise and even sillier to expect people to pretend that Kerry is a viable 2008 contender.

He isn't. He's a good Senator who serves admirably there.

But he's not getting anywhere near that nomination in 2008.

Pointing out Kerry's flaws as a candidate is not swiftboating. It is honest debate and the entire point of the primary process.

If you can't stand to see his flaws as a candidate discussed, go hang out at johnkerry.com.

[madfloridian]

5. You don't get it.

It is not about Kerry. It is about the fact that the 08 decision has most likely been made. Why now, why a "popularity" poll which is not credible at all, why him?

Who's next. Who's coming into view now.

[geek tragedy]

8. There were 15 other people on that list. Too bad for him

he finished behind Gingrich and Bush.

Btw, is the corporate media out to get Newt Gingrich too?

He was DONE after that botched joke and his botched reaction to the story. If the wingnuts and mediawhores want to waste their ammo on someone like Kerry instead of Clark or Obama, so much the better.

[madfloridian]

10. It was not a sensible poll...it was stupid.

Just watch the political scene.

[geek tragedy]

13. It was stupid because you don't like the results?

Kerry's not a viable candidate for 2008. Sorry that doesn't sit well with his cultists around here.

[madfloridian]

18. You really don't get it.

You can't even see what the poll was meant to do. You can't even take up for someone with years of service.

Let's rip apart every Dem who isn't perfect, and see who comes on the scene the same day as the poll.

Watch, listen, think.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madfloridian]

25. I did not mention Obama. Why did you?

I was not thinking about him. He has a book out, the media can take care of him just as quickly as they dismiss others. It is easy for them.

[Blue_In_AK]

37. Not me...sorry.

I haven't succumbed to the Obama spell yet. Still a Kerry fan here.

[blm]

12. someone like Kerry who deserves NO support from Dems even though if it wasn't

for Kerry this country would have been enjoying the New World Order of BushInc these past 10 or 12 years.

[geek tragedy]

14. He deserves support for his work in the Senate.

As a Presidential candidate, no he doesn't have any right to expect our support. He did in 2004, but he doesn't now.

[WildEyedLiberal]

32. And do you really think he's less popular than Bush?

DO you defend that? If someone, not on DU, asked you if Kerry really deserves to be hated more than Bush, would you say yes? Would you not defend him against that?

That's really the point of what madfloridian, and many of us, are getting at. He doesn't HAVE to be your choice for 2008. But it's unconscionable to stand by and let the media swiftboat a man who has been relentlessly fighting for other Democrats just because it's more convenient to get him out of the way now. That logic is really stomach turning.

[DemBones DemBones]

26. You're correct that the '08 decision has most likely been made and thus

it doesn't matter what any of us want or what we say. Chances are they're going to force Hillary on us and then wonder why she loses.

[GreenArrow]

29. assuming the 2008 decision has been made

it wasn't the media who made it.

[caledesi]

46. Yes, they will force Hillary on us just as they forced Kerry on us.

Dean was ahead and a great candidate. He wasn't an "insider" so they chose Kerry. I like Kerry, but not good "in the clutch."

My prediction is that "they" are grooming Obama for VP. '08 ticket will be Clinton/Obama.
BTW, read Obama's books..the guy is good.

We have such great candidates for '08:

Edwards
Clarke
Gore

I will take any one of them, but it will be Clinton/Obama...you heard it here.

The thugs are so pissed...they don't like any of their candidates. No neocons except for Gingrich, but we do know what baggage he has (3rd marriage, always leaving present wives for his latest affair). Boo Hoo!'

As an aside, since I troll freeperville alot. Be prepared for the ridiculous smear on Obama. His middle name is Hussein. Oh yeah, they are already chanting "Hussein Obama"...guess they heard that from OxyRush.

BTW, Obama is speaking at an Evangelical MegaChurch in Oregon Friday (sucject is AIDS help). The paster who invited him (Richard Allen) is one of the most influencial Evangelicals today. Wrote books etc. The Dems are playing it very smart this year.

edit: forgot stuff

[jgraz]

71. Clinton/Obama is bad electoral math

Both from IL. I think when they start to poll Dems on Hillary's negatives, she'll (hopefully) fade. Right now, I'm pulling for Clark/Feingold.

[blm]

7. If he's so bad then not one of you should care if he ran. You SHOULD care that

media is controlling the fear that Dems have. And you should care that the Dem leader on net neutrality issue and media expansion issue is being targetted so blatantly by the corpmedia who informs you.

[INdemo]

17. Kerry won in 2004

and he did fight the swiftboating in 2004 but the media was quiet when Kerry spoke in his own defense. The media repeated the swiftbaoat ads over and over and gave them free air time..Ya see when Democrats talk about John Kerry not defending himself against the swiftboaters it just proves that Republican propaganda is effective.This is just another reason why they are so damn good at it.The MSM spreads that propaganda and Democrats believe them.

[geek tragedy]

19. Yeah, and the Democrats won control of Congress in 2004 too. eom

[Old and In the Way]

30. The Republican owned MSM is scared shitless of strong statesman like Kerry.

Remember, JFK? They took him out with a bullet...same with Robert Kennedy. Today, they do their assassinations by the written word. Much cleaner. Hell, if I didn't like Kerry, I'd vote for him now, just because it is so obvious that they have decided that he shouldn't be our President. Screw them.

[INdemo]

31. They fear him because they cant win against him

There are a hell of a lot of trolls on here or Democrats that are just easily taken in by the Republican propaganda and have been brain washed..

[Bake]

66. Then he should have fought HARDER.

He should have made DAMN SURE that regardless of the media's interest in swiftboating him, he got the truth out.

And he didn't. That's all I need to know.

And I hate that, because I supported Kerry in '04. But the man has the charisma of a doorknob.

Bake

[blm]

2. Corpmedia is the Dem party's good friend and they are only targetting Kerry as a FAVOR to Dems.

It has nothing to do with net neutrality. Or media expansion. Or covering up for BushInc. Really. They just want what is GOOD for Democratic party.....really....trust them. Corpmedia wants only what is BEST for Democrats.

[geek tragedy]

6. Kerry's problems are not the result of some goddamn conspiracy.

The man has numerous flaws as a candidate. He is an ineffective messenger--especially if you want to push a message of populism.

[blm]

9. Yeah - I heard that on the Nixon tapes, too. And during Reagan-Bush.

And again with Bush2. Thanks, geek - good to know Kerry can't get a message through - thanks.

[madfloridian]

11. Well, welcome to DU where we destroy all Democrats who are not perfect.

Welcome, sit down and watch.

[geek tragedy]

15. We don't destroy anyone here.

If that were true, Hillary would be toast by now.

But I don't see her supporters whining nearly as much.

[madfloridian]

20. Then you don't get it.

I am sorry, but you don't get that it is not just about Kerry. It is about every single Democrat that has been ripped to shreds here as soon as the media gives the high sign.

[geek tragedy]

21. So, are people who rip into Hillary and lie about her record

dupes of the MSM conspiracy, or are they an advance team working for that conspiracy?

I never thought Kerry deserved a second chance, and became convinced of that when he had that P.R. disaster right before the election.

[madfloridian]

22. You really must not have seen much TV today or yesterday.

.

[geek tragedy]

24. No, I haven't.

From my point of view, Kerry isn't a threat to get the nomination so any attention paid to him is just background noise.

[ClassWarrior]

63. Background noise???

That noise you hear is OUR ENTIRE PARTY being trashed by proxy.

Interesting that you would term a Dem "a threat."

NGU.

[janx]

62. What was on TV? I haven't been near it except to watch

Bleak House DVDs. ??

[madfloridian]

67. Dem "strategists" reacting to the stupid poll

that has Bush near the top of "popularity" when he is a fool and idiot and very hated all over the world as well as here....and Kerry last.

They touted it, they delcared him dead in the water.

It was stupid poll that I voted in 4 times by cleaning out cookies and deleting cache...I figured it wouldn't work but it did.

[janx]

69. And the idiot TV talking heads were giving this credence?

:rofl:

Could our media get any worse?

[blm]

41. What was the P.R. disaster? Kerry didn't ask media to create a lie - fearful Dems

let the media get away with creating lies when they believe them and further them.

[caledesi]

47. Hey, at least we have alot to choose from. The freeps only

have 3 losers!!

[jgraz]

72. If saying someone shouldn't run for POTUS is "destroying" them...

Then we have a helluva lot more Dems who are being "destroyed" on these forums. People who don't want Kerry have valid reasons for it, and shouldn't be told that they "don't get it" because they happen to disagree.

Remember the Fluffy Puppies!

[Island Blue]

3. I think a lot of non-Democrats use DU at their litter box.

It's really a shame that it's allowed to happen, but it is.

[madfloridian]

27. Not just non-Democrats.

:hi:

[Eurobabe]

40. No, alot of people use DU to debate

not do the goose step.

[skipos]

4. Kerry is not high on my list, and it has nothing to do with the media.

I would support him if nominated.

[Blaukraut]

16. Thank you, madfloridian

Hopefully your post will make some people stop and think before they join in the destruction of a good man. Yes, primary season is almost here, and we all have our own candidate we would like to see get the nomination, and yes, there will be ferocious battling going on.
However; defending your own candidate and pointing out the weaknesses of others is one thing. Tearing down a fine Democrat and maligning his supporters when they - naturally - jump to his defense, is altogether different.

[GreenArrow]

28. the media is only a tool

tools don't work on their own initiative.

[izzybeans]

33. I agree

I would also extend it to any Democrat willing to caucus with us as we try to steer this ship around an iceberg. There are a lot of trolls and other naive, well meaning DUers, pissing in their own pot right now.

Fucking fight the battle when it really begins. When its over take up arms with the victor or sit on the sidelines with Lieberman and Nader. We do not need to turn this into a fool's errand.

[madfloridian]

38. I had that dupe thing happen to me here recently.

All of a sudden everything I posted was duped.

[izzybeans]

42. DU was slow for me last evening. Not sure why.

Thanks for your post. Its one of the few sensible ones I've seen on this topic.

[izzybeans]

34. dupe

[izzybeans]

35. dupe

[madfloridian]

36. Vilsack is announcing tomorrow.

Obama is heading to NH...others are today speaking they might run.

Just watching the timing.

[lillilbigone]

54. He should have announced yesterday

because in the context of today's Democratic party, that's where Vilsack is - yesterday.

[JNelson6563]

39. Mixed feelings on this

Frankly I hope Kerry does not run again. He'd make a good President but is a lousy candidate. What's the point of being a potentially good Pres but a candidate who can't win?

In other news, there are supporters of various possible candidates who spend much of their day bemoaning the fact their choice isn't a big topic with the corporate media. I marvel at this. Who in the hell would want that at this point? If the corp. media is covering a Dem in regard to 08 these days it's so they can set the person up for disaster at this point. To be considered a front-runner is the last thing I'd want. Me thinks there are some DUers who will learn first hand the meaning of the old addage "be careful what you wish for".

Since I want Gore to run it's my hope he doesn't jump in anytime soon. Let the media play their games with the others, when they are preoccupied ripping apart the others, Gore can swoop in and scoop up all.

Julie

[madfloridian]

44. At this point in time for me...

it is not about one man as much as it is about the tendency here to go along with with media in kniving our Democrats to death.

Today it is Kerry, tomorrow it could be anyone.

Kerry did not deserve to have that popularity poll touted like it was. GWB is one of the most hated men in this country and in the world, yet he scored high....so we know it was useless.

This is just about fairness.

[Zodiak]

48. I agree

Bush's popularity is now polling consistently in the low 30's. That Qinnipac poll had Bush at 43%. Where did he get the 10 points?

Did he get it from being a nice guy who now listens to his advisors?

Did he get it from suddenly becoming honest with the American people?

There is no reason for a ten-point bounce at all.

Which is exactly why that poll, like so many others, needs to be in the trash heap rather than constantly parroted and analyzed on the evening news.

I like Kerry. He is an awesome senator who has a soft spot for free trade agreements. That is the extent of his sins, and they are forgiveable. He is not a populist, but he is a strong liberal (despite his DLC connections). He also was screwed out of 3 million + votes in 2004 and never got a serious consideration by the media during that election.

If he gets the nomination, I will vote for him (as any other Dem). However, I will be pushing for Al Gore for the prmary (the true President of the United States). Hillary isn't even on my radar, nor are any other of the Vilsack-types. I, like so many fellow DUers, will be opposing corporatists this next season.

[sandnsea]

51. The White House concocted the 'botched joke'

Matthews said faxes were flying in like there was an APB. They hammered away at the joke, which was a complete non-story in light of the fact that he wasn't even running for anything. After they beat the hell out of him, they take a poll to measure the success of their hatchet job, and then use the poll to put the final nail in the coffin.

And too many DUers don't see it at all. What's really sad is when they DO see it with Nancy Pelosi, which at least has some important issues related - but deny it when it comes to Kerry. As long as the right wing gets away with it with even one Democrat, they'll know they can get away with it with others.

[jgraz]

73. "Today it is Kerry, tomorrow it could be anyone"

No, tomorrow it's pretty much gonna be Kerry too. The guy just isn't popular, especially among Dems. I doubt he'll even run, but if he does, I expect a very quick exit.

[wyldwolf]

43. I think an even worse hatchet job is being done on Hillary

[sandnsea]

49. By the media??

Please explain. You could make an argument that DU is doing a hatchet job on Hillary, I'd say people have judged her record and found it wanting. But I don't see any hatchet job on her in the media - not yet. It'll come if she gets the nomination though.

[DaveinMD]

50. I think

he meant by people here.

[wyldwolf]

52. I did, which is what the OP is about...

[madfloridian]

53. To make it clear, ww....I don't do "hatchet jobs" on anyone.

I state my case and make my points without doing hatchet jobs.

As for Hillary, she did her own little smear on Kerry recently...and it did not endear her to many here.

But I did not bring that up. Politics is ugly, ain't it.

[wyldwolf]

58. to make it clear, did I say you did? DU does not revolve around you.

[madfloridian]

59. Why don't you just leave me alone.

The election is over. The same people will get their way, at least for a while anyway.

Joe won, even those he didn't.

I did not say anything against you in this thread.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whometense]

45. Kind words, and good thoughts.

Thank you. I very much appreciate them.

Elias at The Chimes at Midnight had a great post today on the very same subject: http://chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com/2006/11/oh-dearoh-my.html

...The origins of this disaffection are easy to see, Kerry lost in '04 after the usual campaign of brutal emasculation from the hard right in the country.

Having endured a full year of having their manhood questioned, disheartened liberals traditionally expiate their injured psyches by turning on the nominee like rats in a firestorm.

Thus they symbolically say to the nation "We aren't unmanly, we can beat down John Kerry (Or Walter Mondale or Mike Dukakis or Al Gore) with the best of them!!"

This is nothing except appropriating the oppressor's own malign emotional iconography, something we must purge from ourselves if we mean to govern and build a majority in the elections to come.

It seems to me, that botched joke aside, John Kerry did a lot of good this year from personal appearances for democratic challengers to fundraising on behalf of the same.

Lets try to remember that going forward.

[Infinite Hope]

55. If DU can prevent Kerry's candidacy, then let's do it. n/t

[madfloridian]

56. I can't believe you said that.

.

[jgraz]

74. Don't worry -- Kerry will prevent Kerry's candidacy

We can move on to bigger and better things.

[David Zephyr]

57. John Kerry is a great American. John Kerry is a real hero.

As an activist from the 1960's against the War in Vietnam, I can only tell you that I have witnessed John Kerry's courageous contributions to this country for nearly 40 years. Forty years.

The very same media that had a field day with Howard Dean --- maliciously and knowingly misrepresenting his enthusiastic and joyful cheer-leading a group of hard-working, young volunteers into something that it wasn't --- is now doing the same thing to a great man. It really makes me angry.

I am now supporting Wes Clark, but should John Kerry run, he will bring a lot to the race. And if he wants to run then he should do just that.

[WildEyedLiberal]

61. Thanks for your nice post

Your attitude is all anyone on DU asks for, I think. Respect for a good Democrat who inspires many people, regardless of whether or not he's your first, or second, or whatever choice. I have plenty of respect for other candidates who for various reasons aren't on my short list, but I will not denigrate them or their supporters or help the GOP smear them. They are good Democrats and we, as Ben Franklin said, must hang together or we will surely hang separately.

[elehhhhna]

65. I'm tired of DUers telling me who I should prefer.

IMO, Gore is head & shoulders above the rest, btw. And if you don't want Hil/Barack -- a losing combo for sure--in '08, y'all had better get rid of evoting locally BEFORE the primaries.

GET MOVING, please.

[jgraz]

75. You'd be surprised at how many of us "anti-Kerry" folk agree with you on this

We all respect Kerry as an American and a human being, even those of us who have no respect for the manner in which he ran his campaign. If, by some very strange twist of fate (e.g. all other candidates dying in a plane crash) Kerry gets the nod, I expect I'll work as hard for his election as I did last time.

I'll probably work even harder, now that I know how much help he needs as a campaigner.

[LittleClarkie]

64. K and R

Thanks Madflo.

And really, this goes for any candidate. If we let them do it to Dean, Gore and Kerry, it can be done to any of our Dems. Fight the spin.

[midnight]

68. Good point to make, we should all stay on are toes. Remember

that for the most part on all major news coming from the news outlets,has been to confuse, and not inform.

[fedupinBushcountry]

70. Thanks Madfloridian

He is a good man and a true blue democrat.

:kick:

[madfloridian]

76. Well, I think all it did was cause more people to say ugly things.

But I tried.

I see two or three on this thread who are going to make any primaries miserable for everyone else.

[Generator]

77. Well clearly the powers that be

Whomever they are, Republicans,the establishment, etc. WANT Hillary Clinton as the first and last and only Democratic choice, of course. Becasuse she will cost us another eight years and whomever they have chosen for the Republican stooge to be a real fascist (Bush was just a wannabe) next time will do their best to turn this country into a nightmare. This was just prelude to a nightmare.

That's if they Democrats are stupid enough to believe in Hillary, pick Hillary, continue to give her and her Republican enabling husband more money and another shot at giving the Republicans everything they want.

So real Democrats, just say no to Hillary.

As far as Kerry, he needs to do something to attone for-no not running what some say was a lousy campaign last time (swift boating et all) or gaffes or image or being boring or being right or the crime of being smart in America.

No, what he really needs to do and what I've thought he MUST do to win the nomination and win clearly next time is be the the one who does some REAL BIG THING to bring down Bush/Cheney. That is what he needs to do to be president. Because that idiot clown in the white house mock Kerry with his very existence being called, "Mr. President."

And truly the one thing that above all others that Kerry MUST attone for with Democrats is that damn election that was stolen from him. That's what many of us cannot forgive. I've heard all the excuses, but it NEVER goes away with real Democrats. We cannot get past November 2nd, 2004 and more precisely the morning of November 3,2004 when Kerry gave the worst speech of his life, that horrible "we must heal" concession speech.

I'm not sure there will be a next time. But I remain convinced Kerry has to do something great to kick the media manipulation, the powers that be, and the power of the Clintons.

The second chance is the American way. But you have to do something great to get it.