Rhetoric is what you use when you have no control over something.

[madfloridian]

When a situation is out of our hands, the politicians and pundits resort to rhetoric to make it sound as though they really can do something..when they can't.

WordNet -
rhetoric

n 1: using language effectively to please or persuade 2: high flown style; excessive use of verbal ornamentation 3: loud and confused and empty talk; "mere rhetoric" syn: palaver, hot air, empty words, empty talk 4

I have been reading DU today with all the statements by all the politicians about what they would do in Iraq. Guess what...it does not effing matter what they would do.

There is nothing they can do but get our soldiers out. Any other option involves killing more Iraqi civilians. Any other option means more soldiers dying.

That is the bottom line. Not sure who spins it the most...the Republicans or the Democrats. If we stay, we will have to kill more civilians to survive. I don't in my heart and soul see how any of our party could even consider that.

Empty words. Hopeless situation.

[garthranzz]

1. I agree with your conclusion, but not your assessment of rhetoric

I teach it. Rhetoric is a tool. It can be used to persuade for good, moral beliefs and actions or bad, immoral ones.

Sort of like the internet.

:)

[madfloridian]

2. In this case rhetoric can be deadly to troops and civilians.

That is why I chose the definitions with negative tones.

I taught it also, briefly, but mostly I taught younger, one year at 7th.

Words are going to harm us a lot right now.

I am so angry it is just hurting me inside. I listen to all the words they spout on TV, to the words they write....and it means nothing.

We don't have a choice but to leave.

[driver8]

4. Regarding words...

Wordy Rappinghood
The Tom Tom Club

What are words worth?
What are words worth? - words

Words in papers, words in books
Words on tv, words for crooks
Words of comfort, words of peace
Words to make the fighting cease
Words to tell you what to do
Words are working hard for you
Eat your words but dont go hungry
Words have always nearly hung me

What are words worth?
What are words worth? - words

Words of nuance, words of skill
And words of romance are a thrill
Words are stupid, words are fun
Words can put you on the run

Mots pressx, mots sensx,
Mots qui disent la vit? mots maudits, mots mentis,
Mots qui manquent le fruit desprit

What are words worth?
What are words worth? - words

Its a rap race, with a fast pace
Concrete words, abstract words
Crazy words and lying words
Hazy words and dying words
Words of faith and tell me straight
Rare words and swear words
Good words and bad words

What are words worth?
What are words worth? - words

Words can make you pay and pay
Four-letter words I cannot say
Panty, toilet, dirty devil
Words are trouble, words are subtle
Words of anger, words of hate
Words over here, words out there
In the air and everywhere
Words of wisdom, words of strife
Words that write the book I like
Words wont find no right solution
To the planet earths pollution
Say the right word, make a million
Words are like a certain person
Who cant say what they mean
Dont mean what they say
With a rap rap here and a rap rap there
Here a rap, there a rap
Everywhere a rap rap

Rap it up for the common good
Let us enlist the neighbourhood
Its okay, Ive overstood
This is a wordy rappinghood, okay, bye.

What are words worth?
What are words worth? - words

What are words worth?
What are words worth? - words

Hell stop ... dont stop ... stop.

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. I teach it as well

The OP doesn't realize that his or her very post is itself rhetorical.

The dictionary definitions reflect 2500 years of pseudo-Platonic prejudice. The OP makes a grave error in segregating language and symbols into two sorts: the truthful and the rhetorical. Wrong. It is all sub species rhetoricae, as they say. The supposed truth - if we are to assent to such a category - needs rhetorical action as much as the lie does.

Rhetoric is the use of language and symbols to change the world. That's all it is. For good or ill, you use rhetoric to affect the world with symbols. The question is whether you do so knowingly, or, as Aristotle said, by some knack. We should also remember Augustine's reproach to the anti-rhetoric Christians (Augustine having been a teacher of rhetoric before his conversion): if rhetoric is the art of instructing (docere), delighting (delectare), and persuading (flectere), then it is silly to leave it to the amoral - the righteous need rhetoric even more than the despicable (On Christian Doctrine Book IV). The point can surely be read in a secular way.

[MH1]

3. I just posted something similar on another thread

Here's what I don't get. The US leadership has proven utterly incompetent in almost 4 years in Iraq. There has been time to do diplomacy. There has been time to get a strong start on reconstruction. There has been time to do things in such a way that the Iraqis believe we have their interests at heart and will want to work with us.

But in all this time we have only seen our leaders screw it up worse and worse.

Why in the world should we leave our troops in harm's way with this kind of incompetent leadership?

I don't care what wonderful plans the Clarks, Clintons, Bakers, or even Kerrys of this country can come up with. Because they can come up with the best plans in the world, and the idiots in charge will not use them, or if the idiots in charge even try to follow a good plan, they will still fail to execute it in any competent manner.

The longer we stay, the worse we make it. Sometimes you just have to get the bull out of the china shop so the proprietor can go about cleaning up the mess.

[madfloridian]

6. Thank you, I missed that.

Glad you shared. I read the forums today with all the words, and they all mean nothing.

[driver8]

5. Regarding "Talk"...

(Sorry...the two songs I posted here just popped into my head. I wanted to share them in case some of you have never heard them.)


Elephant Talk
King Crimson



Talk, its only talk
Arguments, agreements, advice, answers,
Articulate announcements
Its only talk

Talk, its only talk
Babble, burble, banter, bicker bicker bicker
Brouhaha, boulderdash, ballyhoo
Its only talk
Back talk

Talk talk talk, its only talk
Comments, cliches, commentary, controversy
Chatter, chit-chat, chit-chat, chit-chat,
Conversation, contradiction, criticism
Its only talk
Cheap talk

Talk, talk, its only talk
Debates, discussions
These are words with a d this time
Dialogue, dualogue, diatribe,
Dissention, declamation
Double talk, double talk

Talk, talk, its all talk
Too much talk
Small talk
Talk that trash
Expressions, editorials, expugnations, exclamations, enfadulations
Its all talk
Elephant talk, elephant talk, elephant talk

[lillilbigone]

7. We have to get out now.

[madfloridian]

9. Talking about it is not solving anything.

I notice that Clinton is out with his new AIDs initiative, and that is a great thing. I saw that on CNN and little about Iraq.


They keep trying to get it out of the public eye. We need to leave.