Giuliani as Mayor...

[nickshepDEM]

I created a thread like this a while back, but its archived, so I cant bump it.

I'm basically interested in hearing peoples opinion of Giuliani's record as Mayor pre-9/11. Not really interested in his personal life, just policy and accomplishments (or lack there of).

When 9/11 occured I was still in high school, but I remember listening to Howard Stern in the morning before the attack and there was a lot of gossip about how unpopular he was. It was to the point that he wasnt going to run for re-election if I recall correctly...?

Anyway, NYC residents or anyone who is familiar with his career, I would like to hear your thoughts.

[GCP]

1. As someone who saw the change in NYC under his watch

I have to say he did a good job. We lived in NJ at the time and regularly went into the city for entertainment, culture, etc. Under Koch and Dinkins, the city went from bad to worse from the garbage constantly piled up on the streets, to being unable to walk anywhere without being hassled by pan-handlers. The drug trade was going crazy also - Bryant Park, in the very center of NYC on 42nd between 5th and 6th Aves, was a thriving drug market at all times of the day.
Guiliani really cleaned the place up and made it a much more liveable place for ordinary people.
I guess that's the signal for a major flame war. :hide:

[pooja]

2. And there it is cleaned it up because there was undesireables...

instead of addressing the issue of why were the panhandlers on the streets.. why were drugs so thriving.

These are signs of desperation. Find the source, fix forever... patch it up and put a rug over it, leaves a hole for someone else to fix later.

[GCP]

6. I agree that the root cause of homelessness has never been addressed

But neither has it been addressed by any other mayor or city anywhere in the US. Mental health issues will never be addressed because the mentally ill don't have a voter bloc or constituency.
That being said, NYC was going down the tubes fast and with his new policies of getting a lot of petty crime off the streets, he reversed the downturn and NYC became a much more liveable place for the middle class who were leaving in droves before then.

[Betty88]

3. he sucked the fun out of Times Square

Now its just another Disney mall

[GCP]

4. I remember that area as XXX heaven

42nd street down from there was hookers, johns and XXX theaters - fun if you're young and horny, a place to avoid for everybody else.

[Cassandra]

7. Easier to walk down the street, though.

Now it's so crowded you can hardly move. They've put a strip across it labeled, Life, sanitized for your protection.

[GCP]

9. LOL - so when I came into the city with my kids

I could easily walk around there through the hookers and pimps!

[Cassandra]

16. My sympathies if you were walking from Port Authority.

Otherwise, why would you have been there with your kids? Every change has effects both good and bad. As said elsewhere, the big box stores have hurt the mom-and-pops (NYC is being malled) but the strip of sixth avenue from 16th to 23rd was deserted before the zoning change, which has now swallowed up the flea market and flower districts just to the north, alas.

[DoYouEverWonder]

29. They moved them over

a few blocks.

[NYCGirl]

10. Times Square used to be filled with porn, now it's filled with commercial porn.

The former was at least more honest.

[TomClash]

24. I take exception

Your post nicely illustrates the suburban view of the New York City.

The actual crime record is decidedly more mixed. Crime was already decreasing under David Dinkins (and his PC, Ray Kelly) and the crime decrease of the 1990s was replicated in almost every major US city. While Guliani, or rather Ray Kelly and Bill Braxton, made some significant improvements, their efforts do not explain the nationwide decrease in inner city crime. Demographics probably played a much larger role than any other single factor.

Though not counted officially, we should count the many incidents of police misconduct as crimes. These travesties were legion under Giuliani and his unqualified hatchetmen, specifically Safir and Kerik. Beyond Diallo, Louima and Dorismond, police misconduct rose dramatically and Giuliani seemed to relish and encourage that misconduct.

Plus, the economic growth spurred by the advent of the internet and Clinton's saner economic policies were far more responsible for the civic improvements in New York city than anything Rudy Giuliani did.

As for the original OP, don't worry too much about Rudy Giuliani. He's not getting the Republican nomination. You can take that to the bank.

[Cassandra]

5. Control freak...

racist, secretive, combative. Some of the improvement in policing came from reforms that Dinkins made which were finally coming to fruition at that time (and I'm no Dinkins fan) but there was open season, or close to, on minorities. He would refuse to turn over data to various city agencies who were compelled by law to compile it. He lost case after case in court about that and would waste taxpayer money fighting it out further and delaying, delaying until all his mayoral papers were sent to a facility in Queens where we still can't get at them. A control freak was a useful thing to have on 9/11 because he so loved telling people what to do (and was way more competent than Bush) but he hadn't solved the communication problem between the police and the firefighters, which was a long standing problem. Also, he promoted Kerik who, aside from his illegal behavior, seemed to think that his job was being Rudy's personal bodyguard.
Not the worst mayor we've ever had but I was really glad he was term-limited. Yes, the city is safer and cleaner, but there are many reasons for that, not just his leadership.

[jumptheshadow]

18. Here, here

Remember the plan Giuliani concocted before his term limits ran out that would dictate the governmental infrastructure of NYC so it would carry a Giuliani stamp? It was defeated, Bloomberg was elected, and he, too, proved to be a mayor for the time, helping to revive NYC after the economic devastation wrought by 9/11 and the cultural wounds inflicted by Giuliani.

[mcscajun]

21. Thanks for filling in the gaps for those who were never NYers

Commuters/tourists have an outsider's view of the city, and anything that makes the place safer and cleaner to their perceptions is fine by them. They don't have to live with the causes and effects.

Guiliani was, and is, overrated, as a mayor, and as a potential Presidential candidate -- even for a Republican one. :evilgrin:

[NYCGirl]

8. He tried to censor art he didn't approve of, let the "big box" stores move into

Manhattan (to the dismay and subsequent loss of "mom and pop" stores of all types), and the police department under his administration was racist and out of control. You think the Bush Administration is into secrecy? Amateurs, compared to Giuliani's.

http://www.salon.com/people/col/cintra/1999/09/29/rudy/index.html

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0307-05.htm

http://www.cjr.org/issues/2002/4/voice-giuffo.asp

[Betty88]

14. forgot about the sudden need to repair subway stations

located near anything he did not approve of.

[nickshepDEM]

17. That line is classic...

"You think the Bush Administration is into secrecy? Amateurs, compared to Giuliani's."

[nickshepDEM]

11. I made my first trip to NYC about a month ago and I was impressed.

My girlfriend and I walked from Union Square (?) to Time Square. I believe that was around 30 blocks and we didnt run into a spec of trouble. Not a single person asking for money. Nothing.

Try walking 30 blocks in Baltimore. You're guranteed to run into 30 panhandlers, drug dealers, heck, you may not make it back alive.

[GCP]

12. Thank you for making my point!

[Smarmie Doofus]

13. Reply #5 has it about right. Also....

... the city was benefiting from national trends ( crime going down, economy improving). Remember, Guiliani's reign was contemporaneous, roughly, with Clinton's.

Also, G. was *beloved* by the corporate media, which is a huge political advantage in a media-saturated town like this. They are , as we speak, working overtime to mythologize the Guiliani mayoralty in preparation for the next chapter.

Read 'Grand Illusion' by Wayne Barrett and Dan Collins.

[dmosh42]

19. Overall, I think he has a positive rating..

Before he was the mayor of NYC, remember he did quite a job as Fed attorney in that district. He pursued the mafia relentlessly, and was mainly responsible for jailing of John Gotti. He was pretty much a straight arrow in those days, and there was never talk of corruption in his dept. Of course that was years ago, and we know politics has a corrupting influence. He did have opposition from the minority populations, for his administration's lack of sensitivity. He would be a tough nut for the Dems to beat, but I doubt if the Repubs would nominate him. He's probably closer to a lot of Democratic ideals than Republican.

[Smarmie Doofus]

23. This part is quite true....

>>>Before he was the mayor of NYC, remember he did quite a job as Fed attorney in that district. He pursued the mafia relentlessly, and was mainly responsible for jailing of John Gotti. He was pretty much a straight arrow in those days, and there was never talk of corruption in his dept. Of course that was years ago, and we know politics has a corrupting influence.>>>>>

... and it's a shame he didn't turn out to be a better mayor than he was.

[jumptheshadow]

15. Not a diplomat at all

Why would we want to replace one self-centered, bad-tempered, "my way or the highway" President with another? Like Bush, Giuliani shut out anybody with a dissenting point of view. When Mayor Bloomberg came in, the first thing he did was reach out to the representatives of the 3/4's of the NYC voting world ignored and marginalized by Giuliani. The last thing we need right now is another polarizing, authoritarian personality. We could use somebody with inner strength who is a good bridge builder.

Giuliani was a man for his times, and he did some good things, like helping to rebuild the city's tax base. Having had a 5 a.m. job at a media place near Times Square, I believe he did a very constructive thing by cleaning up the streets there, lowering the crime rate, and, yes, by making it more of an entertainment center that would appeal to tourists whose purchases weren't black market and would go towards supporting the city. I also enjoyed the fact that I could actually go to work and not be approached by men who thought I was a sex worker....

[no_hypocrisy]

20. Geez, where do I start? I'll try to keep it short and sweet.

1. Giuliani hired Jason Turner from Wisconsin to oversee the "welfare reform" for The City. His stewardship produced a policy that mandated that in order to continue receiving subsidies from NYC, welfare mothers had to "get a job" for something like 20-30 hours a week. The City had lots of jobs for them like collecting garbage in city parks and subways, etc. This had two "bonuses" for the City. First, the jobs could be done for minimum wage. Second, the jobs previously held by union contract workers could be eliminated and then resurrected and given to the welfare mothers for minimum wage. Aside from the union workers being screwed, having a job for 20-30 hours that paid nearly nothing frustrated many welfare recipients from attending training and education courses to get off of welfare as the schedules collided. And in order to take these courses, they had to put their kids in daycare which they couldn't afford between the welfare stipends and the minimum wage jobs. Vicious circle in more ways than one.

2. Giuliani Administration was one of the most secretive administrations in city history. They guarded their facts and only did interviews when they wanted THEIR message to get out. Christine Latagano (sp?) was the PR point person who protected Giuliani like a pit bull. She was made to look like the "bad guy" while Giuliani remained pristine behind City Hall.

3. Giuliani's attitude toward HIS police force. In short, as far as he was concerned, their shit did not stink. No matter what. Ask a New Yorker about Anthony Diaz, Abner Louima, Patrick Dourisman, and Amadu Diallo. All had fatal encounters with members of the New York City Police Department. Giuliani would never criticize any of them or their actions. Not even express a hesitancy about waiting for "all the facts to come in". Giuliani even unlawfully unsealed the juvenile criminal record of Dourisman in order to give the papers "something" to show that this man must have done something to justify the cops' actions.

4. Giuliani was kicked out of the mayor's mansion by his wife, Donna Hanover Giuliani, because he was seeing a divorced woman socially and not even trying to hide the fact. He then surprised his wife with an announcement of filing for divorce on the day of the funeral of the City's Cardinal Egan (so much for catholic values). Giuliani lived with two friends/acquaitances who also happened to be gay while he was waiting for his divorce.

Then with 9-11, voila! Collective amnesia. But check out anything online that Wayne Barrett has written about Giuliani. It's like a trip down memory lane.

I left stuff out, but these are the biggies in my memory.

[nickshepDEM]

22. Thanks for the read. I enjoyed it.

[mcscajun]

25. Only point I'd add for the benefit of those outside NYC - It's More Than Manhattan

The city is five whole boroughs, of which Manhattan is only the most visible and most moneyed. It's the one most tourists, and nearly all commuters, come to, and the only one Guiliani cared about.

Things that were "cleaned up" didn't get wiped out, just moved. Where? To the "Outer Boroughs", a term any of us who grew up and LIVED there (I come from The Bronx) detested. (For the record, I also lived in Upper Manhattan for a time, and worked in both Midtown and the Wall Street area, so I'm no stranger to Manhattan, either.)

Guiliani's record with minorities was beyond pathetic; it bordered on criminal. I'm sure that many members of the Black or Hispanic communities would omit "bordered on" in favor of "was".

In all, hardly a record to applaud.

[hulklogan]

26. Living with gay friends is bad?

What does the fact that he lived with gay friends while his divorce was going through have anything to do with anything?

The secret homophobia on DU is shameful.

[NYCGirl]

27. If you're a Hard Right Republican you think it's bad.

http://www.newscopy.org/2006/07/can_rudy_play_i.html

[DoYouEverWonder]

30. He also tried

to shut down all the topless bars. In the end, hardly anyone got shut down, but they all ended up spending millions on lawyers and court battles.

[no_hypocrisy]

32. And he tried to shut down the X-rated video stores through zoning

regulations.

Responding to the prior response to my original comment, no, living with friends who are gay is not a bad thing, just the contrary. My implication was that if you are a politician, are not ashamed of your actions, you must be ready to defend the people who took you in and protected you when you needed them.

And I made a mistake: it was the funeral for John Cardinal O'Connor, not Eagan, who is the present cardinal of the diocese.

[More Than A Feeling]

28. Kicked and Rec'd! This needs more recommendations.

If we can take out Giuliani and McCain in 2007, then the day is ours!(/Sean Connery)

[Superman Returns]

31. he was popular

with the white, middle class. I think the city was certainly better for some under him. As a New Yorker, the city was safer, cleaner, and nicer. He couldn't run against due to term-limits. He was planning on running against Hillary for the Senate seat but his messy personal life and discovery of cancer prevented him from doing so.