Those who were against the IWR are the only true LEADERS

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

Seriously. And that includes Hillary, Kerry and Edwards. There WAS no secret intelligence that they saw that the rest of us were shielded from - if there was, they would continue to cite that to explain their support. Hillary STILL supports the war, just says it was run incompetently. I know Kerry's explanation ad nauseum and don't need anyone to explain it to me. Edwards has the guts to say he was mistaken/wrong for voting for it, but I get no comfort from that.

In this great thread, leftofthedial asks the really seminal question
How Come WE knew?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2995981&mesg_id=2995981

I cannot get that question out of my mind.Many of our leaders did not lead. They were not an effective opposition to a war of opportunity fought on false premises. They COULD have led - there was a hunger for an anti-war stance at the time. We just had to wait for time, blood and Keith Olberman to burst it into the more general consciousness.

It leads me to the conclusion that Hillary, Kerry, Edwards voted more from political expediency than anything else. I am sorry Feingold is not running since he had the moral fortitude and self confidence to vote his conscience against the administration and media war juggernaut.

But, there were other brave men/women who spoke against the war from the beginning. My greatest wish and dream is that Al Gore will run. If not Gore than Dean or Kucinich.

Anyone else?

[Smarmie Doofus]

1. It is, in fact, a legit sort of litmus test....

...separating the leaders from the panderers.

This was the subject of a couple of threads I saw earlier in the week that excused YES on IWR people who have since changed and opposed the war.

Yes, fine, welcome aboard. But be advised: your judgment and credibility will be forever suspect.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. The main reason Hilary should not run

is her continued support of the war.

[WritersBlock]

6. It's certainly the main reason I won't support her primary bid.

And I agree completely with the OP. I'm not going to forget who the leaders have been through the past six awful years, and merely having a D suffix on a candidate's name won't rate a pass with my ballot pencil.

I dearly hope she doesn't run, because I think she'd kill our chances of winning the Oval Office. We might have a chance if she has a very strong running partner, but I wouldn't count on even that to save the election. (Let the bashing begin ;) )

My own R-Lite senator (Landrieu) will be hard-pressed to get my vote for re-election in 2008, either, because as far as I'm concerned:

(1) I believe vertebrates should occupy Senate seats, and she's shown very little sign of spinal presence, and

(2) we might as well have a registered Republican in her place - the floor votes wouldn't change to any great degree, and I could at least respect someone who actually acknowledges the party with which they are truly aligned.

[marmar]

3. Or even more courageous, someone who voted against the Afghanistan war resolution....

BARBARA LEE FOR PRESIDENT! :yourock:

[rainy]

4. Robert Byrd said it best in his floor speeches at the time.

He made me cry on many occasions. He stated the truth: congress was supporting the resolution to get it behind them so they could talk about domestic issues right before an election. They were afraid to speak their minds as they thought it would make them look weak on terror. It was all about their re-election.
They were being tricked into signing on. And it was working. They were afraid not to support the popular president. How would that look to the world?

I agree those who supported the IWR were too weak to stand on principle and they were cowards. If you listened to their speeches, which I did, when they stated why they supported the IWR they all said things like I don't want this to be a vote for war, but, a vote of confidence that our leader will make the right choice and use war as a last resort.
This was a cop-out as they must have known it was a vote to give the president war power and that he was going to use it to go to war.

[skyblue]

5. Winners should Run!!! Regardless of Stance!!

If you run a candidate who can't win the swing vote states, or within their states can't win the majority then you lose and a Republican who favors Social Security Privatization and Will Vote For Judicial Nominees selected by a Republican Candidate will win. It sucks that you can't get everything you want.

[OneBlueSky]

7. not only that . . . after they realized that the war was a disaster . . .

none of them initiated any actions in Congress to bring it to an end . . . they continued (and continue today) to give BushCo all of the prerogatives regarding what to do about Iraq . . .

that's not only dangerous -- it's insane . . .

[Pithy Cherub]

8. There was a lone smart republican Chaffee who got it too!

Leadership requires linked actions and words in the moment. To have a multitude of righteous words and actions that do not support the words is the antithesis of leadership. Political leadership requires alignment and its sad that the people nominated for Profiles in Courage are in the minority of politicians today. The IWR vote was a rare opportunity to stand strongly, be noble and align words with actions. Those who voted yes took a flyer. Another flyer taken by some was the Torture bill. Hence, precious authenticity is fatally comprised by a record over time of making speeches and voting differently. Words and Actions must align as clearly stated by the famous Walk the Talk aphorism.

[seabeyond]

9. seriously.... i disagree with you n/t

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

10. I'm sure many others disagree with me too. I am drawing a distinction between

"Leader" as opposed to "Politician"

Time as proved the few and brave who saw clearly through the fog of lies being thrown up by the administration, as having the correct view. They also had the raw courage to stand up for these views at a time when doing so brought them disdain and besmirchment of their patriotism. It was a time of great political intimidation. I remember Ari Fleisher warning (threatening) people to "be careful" of what opinions they voiced.

I admire them. They put their political futures on the line. It was the right thing to do. If more were like them, maybe we wouldn't be in the morass and quagmire we currently find ourselves in.

Given a choice between those who crumbled and those who stood tall in opposition - I'll pick an opposer every time. I'll know they were not enslaved by the special interests, and I'll know that they did not value their political livelihood above the good of the nation.

[GreenArrow]

11. We can't solve problems

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -- Albert Einstein --

"Wise men profit more from fools than fools from wise men; for the wise men shun the mistakes of fools, but fools do not imitate the successes of the wise." -- Cato the Elder --

"Cautious, careful people, always casting about to preserve their reputation and social standing, never can bring about a reform. Those who are really in earnest must be willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation, and publicly and privately, in season and out, avow their sympathy with despised and persecuted ideas and their advocates, and bear the consequences." -- Susan B Anthony --

It would seem that Hillary, Edwards, et al would be ashamed to even suggest that they would run, after voting in favor of IWR, palpable and reeking bullshit as it was. Leadership? Hardly.Try followership.

[AtomicKitten]

12. Agreed 100%.

I discussed that in detail here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2994344&mesg_id=2994344